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Isometric of Birdwatcher

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  • Mason Smith
    Dear Bruce, It is great to see this isometrics of Birdwatcher. Makes me lonesome for her. I wonder where you got the jib? It looks pretty, but is it real? And
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 3, 2010
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      Dear Bruce,
       
      It is great to see this isometrics of Birdwatcher. Makes me lonesome for her. I wonder where you got the jib? It looks pretty, but is it real? And where does it put the center of effort overall, in relation to the lateral plane? The first Birdwatcher plans didn't show a jib, so far as I know, except on the Solent Lug option, and there, if I have it right, the jib, much smaller, set flying well below the masthead, is tacked down to the forward starboard slope of the cabin-top in line with the off-center mast.
       
      I put such a jib, with roller furling, on my first (and the first-built) birdwatcher, and liked it a lot. My second BW had the Solent Lug rig and similar jib, as is seen in photos on the group. That rig was fast and lots of fun but the Solent Lug complicated life aboard quite a lot. Easier to step mast, easier to get all down, and so, overall, I think a safer rig as well as more powerful; but more work too.
       
      Finally, I don't know if I understand you on the rub-rail which you suggest needs to be spilled. The top edge of those sides is in fact a straight line, isn't it? Bottom edges too? Aren't the hull sides just straight rips of ply? So though the boat presents a very nice sweep of sheer, because of the sides' rake and the bottom's rocker, the rub-rail or stringer has to bend only one way. Even if it had to bend two ways it would be no problem to bend and fasten.
       
      By the way, Bolger was in a way represented at the Antique and Classic Boat Festival at Salem, MA, last weekend by Maggie and your faithful servant with the Micro Pelican, tied up to the same docks as all the other great boats that were really in the show. I was "judging," supposedly. We enjoyed ourselves, got a chance to sail out around the point toward Marblehead after the show broke up, and only regret not getting up to Gloucester to see Susanne, as we had hoped to do.
       
      Mason Smith
      Adirondack Goodboat
      68 North Point Road
      Long Lake, NY 12847
       
    • Mason Smith
      Dear Bruce, great to see the new birdwatcher isometrics. I am doubly puzzled by what you say about the rub-rail under the windows. I thought the side panels of
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 3, 2010
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        Dear Bruce, great to see the new birdwatcher isometrics. I am doubly puzzled by what you say about the rub-rail under the windows. I thought the side panels of BW were straight 2-foot rips of ply and that the boat gets its nice sheer from the rake of sides and rocker of bottom. So it's really only a one-way bend. Second, even if the sides were not straight-edged, such long rails with compound curvature are easy enough to clamp and fasten.
         
        I am also puzzled by the masthead jib you show, not on any plans I ever saw. I put a nice smaller jib on the first BW, set flying on a roller-furler to a lower point on the mast and tacked to the forward sloping cabin top where it could be in line with the off-center mast. That was about the same as the jib on the Solent Lug rig of my second BW. Is the jib you drew for real? I doubt you could get enough luff tension for a good set with a masthead jib and wonder how you would do with it tacked so near the centerline of the boat when the mast is so far off-center. And what does it do to the balance?
         
        By the way, Phil Bolger was modestly represented at the Antique and Classic Boat Festival at Salem, MA last weekend. That is to say, Maggie and I were there, living aboard the Micro Pelican, while I (as it were) judged the show. We were tied up among the greats even though we were not in the show, and Maggie was kept busy explaining blunt ends and flooding wells to the passers-by. We managed a sail out of the bay and around the point, to look into Marblehead, but did not manage to run up to Gloucester and say hello to Susanne.
         
        On the way home a lady gave me a fat check for the Micro and we left it in the dark in central Vermont; but overnight the lady got the willies, too big a leap from her only other boat, a Tortoise. She is bringing the boat back to me tomorrow. I don't mind, but it is for sale, unemphatically, for $5000.
         
         
        Mason Smith
        Adirondack Goodboat
        68 North Point Road
        Long Lake, NY 12847
         
      • Bruce Hallman
        ... That version of Birdwatcher matches pretty closely the version of Birdwatcher shown in the Small Boat Journal article, called Cartoon 22, which I believe
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 3, 2010
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          On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 5:48 AM, Mason Smith <masonsmith@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear Bruce,
          >
          > It is great to see this isometrics of Birdwatcher. Makes me lonesome for her. I wonder where you got the jib? It looks pretty, but is it real?

          That version of Birdwatcher matches pretty closely the version of
          Birdwatcher shown in the Small Boat Journal article, called Cartoon
          22, which I believe was the 'debut' of Birdwatcher. PCB describes her
          as a boat to fill a request from L.D. Blotter of Odgen Utah, for a
          home built Dovekie.

          Regarding the jib, PCB writes: "I doubt the balloon jib is worth the
          cost or space. Set from the offset mast, it would work noticeable
          better on port tack. It would set best tacked on a pole,
          spinnaker-fashion, but that involves the extra spar and two guys to
          control it. I'd rather relax and look at the scenery."
        • prairiedog2332
          Mason, If you were to build another BW which rig would you mostly likely go with? Does the complications of the Solent rig off-set its light air advantages in
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 3, 2010
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            Mason,

            If you were to build another BW which rig would you mostly likely go
            with? Does the complications of the Solent rig off-set its light air
            advantages in your view? I am assuming it has mostly to do with that
            fairly long yard, and keeping it aligned with the mast?

            Thanks, Nels


            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mason Smith" <masonsmith@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Bruce,

            >
            > I put such a jib, with roller furling, on my first (and the
            first-built) birdwatcher, and liked it a lot. My second BW had the
            Solent Lug rig and similar jib, as is seen in photos on the group. That
            rig was fast and lots of fun but the Solent Lug complicated life aboard
            quite a lot. Easier to step mast, easier to get all down, and so,
            overall, I think a safer rig as well as more powerful; but more work
            too.
          • mason smith
            Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I d probably go for it. I solved the
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 3, 2010
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              Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
               
              I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
               
              ---Mason
            • prairiedog2332
              Mason, Not sure it you have seen this article written by Bob Larkin regarding his Birdwatcher2? http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_sails2.htm This Birdwatcher
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 3, 2010
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                Mason,

                Not sure it you have seen this article written by Bob Larkin regarding
                his Birdwatcher2?

                http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_sails2.htm

                This Birdwatcher has even more sail area than the original solent
                option, something like 144 sq. ft. main (same as original solent main
                but 71 sq. ft. jib. (vs: 41 on the original) To compensate it has a
                about 160 lb. centerboard.

                Reading his article it occurs to me the smaller original jib may have
                worked better! On the other hand it passes everything in sight at the
                messabouts.

                He ended up making a smaller main and leaving the yard at home when
                going out solo, but then this leads to lee helm with that big jib. His
                new main is only 85 sq. ft. which is considerably smaller than the
                original leg o' mutton at 125 sq. ft.

                He also mentions adding a small mizzen to help keep head up to the wind
                when reefing. Or maybe just dropping the main and sailing under jib and
                mizzen. I don't quite see where there is space in the stern for a
                mizzen.

                So this all has me scratching my head. Maybe having the solent rig that
                comes with the original plans and using it when having crew available
                and then a smaller leg o' mutton (with the shorter mast) and the option
                of the little jib when going out solo. Add Bob's idea for converting it
                to a sliding gunter?

                I have the original plans which could be modified slightly adding a
                weighted centerboard maybe or a doubled bottom and the anti-slap pad.
                Would you keep the original steering set-up? And what do you think of
                building with 3/8" MDO rather than 1/4" standard plywood?

                Nels



                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                >
                > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use
                the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I
                solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
                that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
                to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
                deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
                compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
                the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
                nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
                thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
                as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
                pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
                Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
                the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
                alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                >
                > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
                when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
                could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
                kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                >
                > ---Mason
                >
              • Adirondack Goodboat
                Nels, I hadn t read Bob Larkin s account of sailing the Birdwatcher 2 with his various sails and combinations. He certainly is a great observer and fixer and
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 4, 2010
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                  Nels, I hadn't read Bob Larkin's account of sailing the Birdwatcher 2 with his various sails and combinations. He certainly is a great observer and fixer and experimenter, an asset to all who build the design. Everything he says makes good sense to me. I think my experience of bringing down the Solent lug was better, maybe because I never had particularly hard conditions. It comes down, is the main thing, and fast if you let it. I think I developed a practice whereby I kept downward tension on the luff while letting the halyard slip through the other hand, so as to keep the yard under control. I do that when lowering the standing lug on my Goodboats. It seemed important, if I remember rightly, to be able to let the foot of the yard go forward as it comes down. Except for that, and if it is satisfactory in passing by the snotter block, I guess I can see the contraption at the foot of the yard, turning the rig into a gunther. I tried a sort of parrel which I attached once the foot of the yard was high enough, and the first owner/builder had a shock cord arrangement along the mast to tame the heel of the yard, but in the end I decided to let the solent be the solent.
                   
                  I think the best of all these solutions for the Birdwatcher for most of us would be the original leg o' mutton sail, with its luff on a track, and the small jib tacked on deck.
                   
                  I too always thought of a mizzen, if only for a steadying sail. I tried a drogue from the bow, but the darn boat sailed around that as badly as around an anchor. So perhaps a short spar with a patch of canvas furled on it, a sprit boom, and two sheets, with a step and partner as far forward as possible, just to clear the main spritboom? But again, too complicated.
                   
                  Birdwatcher 1, motor mount sticking through the side, jib, steering as designed, motor seldom used, oars for all close maneuvers.  That would be my formula.  ---Mason
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 4:11 PM
                  Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                   

                  Mason,

                  Not sure it you have seen this article written by Bob Larkin regarding
                  his Birdwatcher2?

                  http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_sails2.htm

                  This Birdwatcher has even more sail area than the original solent
                  option, something like 144 sq. ft. main (same as original solent main
                  but 71 sq. ft. jib. (vs: 41 on the original) To compensate it has a
                  about 160 lb. centerboard.

                  Reading his article it occurs to me the smaller original jib may have
                  worked better! On the other hand it passes everything in sight at the
                  messabouts.

                  He ended up making a smaller main and leaving the yard at home when
                  going out solo, but then this leads to lee helm with that big jib. His
                  new main is only 85 sq. ft. which is considerably smaller than the
                  original leg o' mutton at 125 sq. ft.

                  He also mentions adding a small mizzen to help keep head up to the wind
                  when reefing. Or maybe just dropping the main and sailing under jib and
                  mizzen. I don't quite see where there is space in the stern for a
                  mizzen.

                  So this all has me scratching my head. Maybe having the solent rig that
                  comes with the original plans and using it when having crew available
                  and then a smaller leg o' mutton (with the shorter mast) and the option
                  of the little jib when going out solo. Add Bob's idea for converting it
                  to a sliding gunter?

                  I have the original plans which could be modified slightly adding a
                  weighted centerboard maybe or a doubled bottom and the anti-slap pad.
                  Would you keep the original steering set-up? And what do you think of
                  building with 3/8" MDO rather than 1/4" standard plywood?

                  Nels

                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use
                  the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I
                  solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                  downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
                  that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                  were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
                  to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
                  deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
                  compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
                  the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
                  nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                  times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
                  thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                  windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                  spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
                  as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
                  pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
                  Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                  rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                  problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
                  the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
                  alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                  >
                  > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                  biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
                  when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                  with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
                  could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
                  kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                  >
                  > ---Mason
                  >

                • Eric
                  If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 4, 2010
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                    If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable. Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be easy to switch to bow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode. However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                    Eric


                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                    >
                    > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                    >
                    > ---Mason
                    >
                  • prairiedog2332
                    Mason, Definitely a track on the main would help I would think. Too bad one could not install a track on the yard. Can t help thinking maybe a bit smaller
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 4, 2010
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                      Mason,

                      Definitely a track on the main would help I would think. Too bad one
                      could not install a track on the yard. Can't help thinking maybe a bit
                      smaller sail with no battens and a lighter yard as well. Maybe carbon
                      fiber or an old windsurfer mast?

                      Maybe if going out solo just reef the solent rig before heading out?
                      Probably a second shorter sprit boom so the forward end doesn't hang up
                      on the jib when tacking? Sure, it doesn't look as "neat" at the foot
                      but that area of the sail is not in much wind anyway. Is it easier to
                      shake out a reef than tie one in, in case the wind goes light and looks
                      like it will stay that way?

                      Looks like this would bring the top of the yard down to about the height
                      of the original mast and bottom of it down to a reachable height if you
                      want to drop it into the slot.

                      http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/Image1.jpg

                      Do you think a 3.5 would work on a bracket? I have a line on a 3.5
                      2-stroke Tohatsu. (with reverse)

                      Nels


                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Nels, I hadn't read Bob Larkin's account of sailing the Birdwatcher 2
                      with his various sails and combinations. He certainly is a great
                      observer and fixer and experimenter, an asset to all who build the
                      design. Everything he says makes good sense to me. I think my experience
                      of bringing down the Solent lug was better, maybe because I never had
                      particularly hard conditions. It comes down, is the main thing, and fast
                      if you let it. I think I developed a practice whereby I kept downward
                      tension on the luff while letting the halyard slip through the other
                      hand, so as to keep the yard under control. I do that when lowering the
                      standing lug on my Goodboats. It seemed important, if I remember
                      rightly, to be able to let the foot of the yard go forward as it comes
                      down. Except for that, and if it is satisfactory in passing by the
                      snotter block, I guess I can see the contraption at the foot of the
                      yard, turning the rig into a gunther. I tried a sort of parrel which I
                      attached once the foot of the yard was high enough, and the first
                      owner/builder had a shock cord arrangement along the mast to tame the
                      heel of the yard, but in the end I decided to let the solent be the
                      solent.
                      >
                      > I think the best of all these solutions for the Birdwatcher for most
                      of us would be the original leg o' mutton sail, with its luff on a
                      track, and the small jib tacked on deck.
                      >
                      > I too always thought of a mizzen, if only for a steadying sail. I
                      tried a drogue from the bow, but the darn boat sailed around that as
                      badly as around an anchor. So perhaps a short spar with a patch of
                      canvas furled on it, a sprit boom, and two sheets, with a step and
                      partner as far forward as possible, just to clear the main spritboom?
                      But again, too complicated.
                      >
                      > Birdwatcher 1, motor mount sticking through the side, jib, steering as
                      designed, motor seldom used, oars for all close maneuvers. That would
                      be my formula. ---Mason
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: prairiedog2332
                      > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 4:11 PM
                      > Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Mason,
                      >
                      > Not sure it you have seen this article written by Bob Larkin
                      regarding
                      > his Birdwatcher2?
                      >
                      > http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_sails2.htm
                      >
                      > This Birdwatcher has even more sail area than the original solent
                      > option, something like 144 sq. ft. main (same as original solent
                      main
                      > but 71 sq. ft. jib. (vs: 41 on the original) To compensate it has a
                      > about 160 lb. centerboard.
                      >
                      > Reading his article it occurs to me the smaller original jib may
                      have
                      > worked better! On the other hand it passes everything in sight at
                      the
                      > messabouts.
                      >
                      > He ended up making a smaller main and leaving the yard at home when
                      > going out solo, but then this leads to lee helm with that big jib.
                      His
                      > new main is only 85 sq. ft. which is considerably smaller than the
                      > original leg o' mutton at 125 sq. ft.
                      >
                      > He also mentions adding a small mizzen to help keep head up to the
                      wind
                      > when reefing. Or maybe just dropping the main and sailing under jib
                      and
                      > mizzen. I don't quite see where there is space in the stern for a
                      > mizzen.
                      >
                      > So this all has me scratching my head. Maybe having the solent rig
                      that
                      > comes with the original plans and using it when having crew
                      available
                      > and then a smaller leg o' mutton (with the shorter mast) and the
                      option
                      > of the little jib when going out solo. Add Bob's idea for converting
                      it
                      > to a sliding gunter?
                      >
                      > I have the original plans which could be modified slightly adding a
                      > weighted centerboard maybe or a doubled bottom and the anti-slap
                      pad.
                      > Would you keep the original steering set-up? And what do you think
                      of
                      > building with 3/8" MDO rather than 1/4" standard plywood?
                      >
                      > Nels
                      >
                      > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" goodboat@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to
                      use
                      > the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it.
                      I
                      > solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                      > downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I
                      did
                      > that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                      > were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner
                      bracing
                      > to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters
                      on
                      > deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But
                      as
                      > compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech,
                      dropping
                      > the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order
                      was a
                      > nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                      > times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want
                      the
                      > thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                      > windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                      > spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar
                      where
                      > as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it
                      could
                      > pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at
                      the No
                      > Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                      > rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                      > problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not,
                      keep
                      > the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor,
                      lickety-hell,
                      > alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                      > >
                      > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                      > biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the
                      cabin/cockpit
                      > when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                      > with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled
                      what I
                      > could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang
                      inside,
                      > kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                      > >
                      > > ---Mason
                      > >
                      >
                    • prairiedog2332
                      Sounds to me like a very good thought. Where I am located there is a lot of sand beaches. No tides. So had thought to just haul up a bit on the beach in a
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 4, 2010
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                        Sounds to me like a very good thought.

                        Where I am located there is a lot of sand beaches. No tides. So had
                        thought to just haul up a bit on the beach in a sheltered spot and tie
                        to a tree. Drop an anchor off the stern.

                        What are your thoughts on a small flat storm jib sheeted in, if
                        anchoring off the stern?

                        Nels


                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and
                        construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring?
                        Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there
                        any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is
                        the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose
                        of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable.
                        Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow
                        anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from
                        the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be
                        desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over
                        cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the
                        wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a
                        quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it
                        is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be
                        easy to switch to bow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the
                        anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode.
                        However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and
                        raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem
                        what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with
                        which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                        > Eric
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" goodboat@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to
                        use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it.
                        I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                        downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
                        that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                        were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
                        to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
                        deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
                        compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
                        the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
                        nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                        times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
                        thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                        windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                        spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
                        as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
                        pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
                        Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                        rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                        problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
                        the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
                        alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                        > >
                        > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                        biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
                        when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                        with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
                        could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
                        kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                        > >
                        > > ---Mason
                        > >
                        >
                      • Eric
                        I would expect the windage and location of the mast on Birdwatcher are sufficient to cause Birdwatcher to lie happily to its anchor if anchored from the stern
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 4, 2010
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                          I would expect the windage and location of the mast on Birdwatcher are sufficient to cause Birdwatcher to lie happily to its anchor if anchored from the stern rather than the bow. I like the uncomplicated elegance of function of Birdwatcher and think another boat should be chosen before adding complication. Hopefully even a little chunk of extra sail and its extra lines would not be needed.

                          I just realized Whalewatcher is yawl rigged and the mizzen might as well be built as an effective riding sail so Whalewatcher will lie happily to a bow anchor.
                          Eric

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Sounds to me like a very good thought.
                          >
                          > Where I am located there is a lot of sand beaches. No tides. So had
                          > thought to just haul up a bit on the beach in a sheltered spot and tie
                          > to a tree. Drop an anchor off the stern.
                          >
                          > What are your thoughts on a small flat storm jib sheeted in, if
                          > anchoring off the stern?
                          >
                          > Nels
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and
                          > construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring?
                          > Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there
                          > any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is
                          > the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose
                          > of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable.
                          > Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow
                          > anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from
                          > the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be
                          > desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over
                          > cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the
                          > wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a
                          > quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it
                          > is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be
                          > easy to switch to bow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the
                          > anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode.
                          > However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and
                          > raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem
                          > what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with
                          > which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                          > > Eric
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" goodboat@ wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to
                          > use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it.
                          > I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                          > downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
                          > that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                          > were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
                          > to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
                          > deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
                          > compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
                          > the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
                          > nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                          > times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
                          > thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                          > windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                          > spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
                          > as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
                          > pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
                          > Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                          > rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                          > problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
                          > the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
                          > alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                          > > >
                          > > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                          > biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
                          > when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                          > with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
                          > could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
                          > kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                          > > >
                          > > > ---Mason
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Adirondack Goodboat
                          I believe we did try stern anchoring the Birdwatcher and the boat still swept huge arcs at high speed. It seemed to me that the hull becomes an airfoil,
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 5, 2010
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                            I believe we did try stern anchoring the Birdwatcher and the boat still swept huge arcs at high speed. It seemed to me that the hull becomes an airfoil, developing high pressure and low pressure sides, and flies until it can fly no more, on each tack.
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Eric
                            Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 6:04 PM
                            Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                             

                            If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable. Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be easy to switch to b ow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode. However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                            Eric

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the s par with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                            >
                            > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                            >
                            > ---Mason
                            >

                          • Eric
                            Then riding sail it is. A V of sail would be most effective with the ends of the V fastened to quarter cleats. If flown off a temporary back stay bow
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 5, 2010
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                              Then riding sail it is. A V of sail would be most effective with the ends of the V fastened to quarter cleats. If flown off a temporary back stay bow anchoring would be possible. I'd probably stern anchor and fly the V wrapped around the mast and ends to quarter cleats. Glad to hear you tried stern anchoring. I'm surprised it didn't tame things.
                              Eric

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I believe we did try stern anchoring the Birdwatcher and the boat still swept huge arcs at high speed. It seemed to me that the hull becomes an airfoil, developing high pressure and low pressure sides, and flies until it can fly no more, on each tack.
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: Eric
                              > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 6:04 PM
                              > Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable. Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be easy to switch to b ow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode. However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                              > Eric
                              >
                              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the s par with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                              > >
                              > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                              > >
                              > > ---Mason
                              > >
                              >
                            • Adirondack Goodboat
                              Rick suggests beaching and really that s the answer where possible. I think where Phil envisioned this boat being used most, like the Dovekie, salt marshes and
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 5, 2010
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                                Rick suggests beaching and really that's the answer where possible. I think where Phil envisioned this boat being used most, like the Dovekie, salt marshes and tidal estuaries, you'd seldom anchor in the open, very often put out a stern anchor and run the boat on the beach or just anchor in shallow, sheltered places, very close in to shore. I'm thinking of one beautiful full moon night on the Crooked River, in Georgia, just inside Cumberland Island. Such a lovely anchorage! But with the full moon and a nice breeze I couldn't pass up sailing for an hour in the middle of the night. Kept running the bow into the grasses in the shadows and having to pole back out into the stream. I don't know if Dovekie would sail around her anchor or not and don't care. ---Mason
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 8:47 PM
                                Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                 

                                Sounds to me like a very good thought.

                                Where I am located there is a lot of sand beaches. No tides. So had
                                thought to just haul up a bit on the beach in a sheltered spot and tie
                                to a tree. Drop an anchor off the stern.

                                What are your thoughts on a small flat storm jib sheeted in, if
                                anchoring off the stern?

                                Nels

                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and
                                construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring?
                                Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there
                                any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is
                                the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose
                                of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable.
                                Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow
                                anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from
                                the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be
                                desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over
                                cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the
                                wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a
                                quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it
                                is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be
                                easy to switch to bow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the
                                anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode.
                                However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and
                                raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem
                                what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with
                                which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                                > Eric
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" goodboat@ wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to
                                use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it.
                                I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                                downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
                                that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                                were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
                                to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
                                deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
                                compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
                                the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
                                nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                                times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
                                thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                                windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                                spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
                                as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
                                pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
                                Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                                rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                                problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
                                the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
                                alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                                > >
                                > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                                biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
                                when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                                with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
                                could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
                                kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                                > >
                                > > ---Mason
                                > >
                                >

                              • Bruce Hallman
                                ... Just curious, did you try anchoring with the dagger board down? How did that effect the stability at anchor? The physics of why boats swing around their
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 5, 2010
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                                  >anchorage! . ---Mason

                                  Just curious, did you try anchoring with the dagger board down? How
                                  did that effect the stability at anchor? The physics of why boats
                                  swing around their anchor escapes my logic. I also wonder if dropping
                                  overboard a 5 gallon bucket on a rope might tame things.
                                • Eric
                                  No expertise but will begin the discussion of why boats swing at anchor: Hull shape: Sailboats are designed so that almost any force applied to the hull will
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 5, 2010
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                                    No expertise but will begin the discussion of why boats swing at anchor: Hull shape: Sailboats are designed so that almost any force applied to the hull will cause it to move forward. Windage and CLR (Center of Lateral Resistance). On the same hull a schooner will lie quieter to its anchor than a ketch, yawl, sloop, cutter, or cat. Traditional cats have full keels and lie quietly to their anchor, as do most if not all full keel sailboats. Modern sloops/cutters have shallow hulls and fin keels whose CLR is aft of the significant windage of the mast and its rigging, and they charge back and forth at anchor. Riding sails rigged from back stays and mizzen masts tame things considerably. Though a five gallon bucket would work marginally, an anchor or bucket full of sand/rocks or any other weight at the end of a rope just a bit longer than the depth of the water can be used effectively to quiet things as it drags along the bottom (not ecological). Two anchors in a V on out to 180* Bahamian Moor can also help but this reduces the effectiveness of each anchor for the same reasons that reaching up to pull the halyard out from the mast so as to be able to haul it a little tighter gives you extra leverage pulling the peak of the sail up (or anchor out when anchoring).
                                    Eric

                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >anchorage! . ---Mason
                                    >
                                    > Just curious, did you try anchoring with the dagger board down? How
                                    > did that effect the stability at anchor? The physics of why boats
                                    > swing around their anchor escapes my logic. I also wonder if dropping
                                    > overboard a 5 gallon bucket on a rope might tame things.
                                    >
                                  • Adirondack Goodboat
                                    No daggerboard on Birdwatcher and no experience anchoring Dovekie in a blow but I suspect the daggerboard would help some. We surely must have tried the
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 6, 2010
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                                      No daggerboard on Birdwatcher and no experience anchoring Dovekie in a blow but I suspect the daggerboard would help some. We surely must have tried the centerboard down in anchoring the Birdwatchers without preventing the swinging. The bucket idea is similar to the idea of veering out a drogue astern and I think it would help or at least shorten the range of the swinging. I didn't have my Birdwatchers long enough to confront this problem and possibly solve it.
                                       
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 7:10 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                       

                                      >anchorage! . ---Mason

                                      Just curious, did you try anchoring with the dagger board down? How
                                      did that effect the stability at anchor? The physics of why boats
                                      swing around their anchor escapes my logic. I also wonder if dropping
                                      overboard a 5 gallon bucket on a rope might tame things.

                                    • Adirondack Goodboat
                                      Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn t guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 6, 2010
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                                        Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Eric
                                        Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 10:44 AM
                                        Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                         

                                        Then riding sail it is. A V of sail would be most effective with the ends of the V fastened to quarter cleats. If flown off a temporary back stay bow anchoring would be possible. I'd probably stern anchor and fly the V wrapped around the mast and ends to quarter cleats. Glad to hear you tried stern anchoring. I'm surprised it didn't tame things.
                                        Eric

                                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I believe we did try stern anchoring the Birdwatcher and the boat still swept huge arcs at high speed. It seemed to me that the hull becomes an airfoil, developing high pressure and low pressure sides, and flies until it can fly no more, on each tack.
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: Eric
                                        > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 6:04 PM
                                        > Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable. Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be easy to switch to b ow anchor ing by attaching a line from the bow to the anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode. However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                                        > Eric
                                        >
                                        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take dow n the s par with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                                        > >
                                        > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                                        > >
                                        > > ---Mason
                                        > >
                                        >

                                      • Rob Kellock
                                        Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                          Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various configurations. It charges at anchor from the bow and swings quite a bit less from the stern. However with the lugsail furled down into it's lazyjacks, both the leeboard and rudder raised (my feeling is that you don't want any underwater appendages impeding the hull aligning itself to the wind), and a jib pulled hard to the centre of the boat as a riding sail it hardly moves at all. I have a cleat on each quarter with a rope between and a bowline in the centre to which I attach the stern anchor.

                                          Despite all this, my preferred anchoring technique with these extreme shoal draft boats, if I am to sleep in them, is to anchor just off the shoreline in calf deep water with the bow to shore attached to a shoreline and the stern anchor in deeper water as it pounds much less than the bow.

                                          Cheers,

                                          Rob.

                                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason
                                        • Chester Young
                                          To stop the charging at anchor of my Tennessee (EstherMae) I took a small sail and rigged it on the transom, in a fixed position. It all but eliminated the
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                            To stop the charging at anchor of my Tennessee (EstherMae) I took a small sail and rigged it on the transom, in a fixed position.  It all but eliminated the problem during the one use it had last year just before Thanksgiving.  Prior to that if the wind was blowing strong enough it would occasionally jerk hard enough to wake a person.  I would call it a major improvement with minor investment.

                                             

                                            Caloosarat

                                             

                                            From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kellock
                                            Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:31 AM
                                            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                             

                                             

                                            Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various configurations. It charges at anchor from the bow and swings quite a bit less from the stern. However with the lugsail furled down into it's lazyjacks, both the leeboard and rudder raised (my feeling is that you don't want any underwater appendages impeding the hull aligning itself to the wind), and a jib pulled hard to the centre of the boat as a riding sail it hardly moves at all. I have a cleat on each quarter with a rope between and a bowline in the centre to which I attach the stern anchor.

                                            Despite all this, my preferred anchoring technique with these extreme shoal draft boats, if I am to sleep in them, is to anchor just off the shoreline in calf deep water with the bow to shore attached to a shoreline and the stern anchor in deeper water as it pounds much less than the bow.

                                            Cheers,

                                            Rob.

                                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:

                                            >
                                            > Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the
                                            spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason

                                          • Susanne@comcast.net
                                            On BIRDWATCHER, does the hunting occur with the board down? Perhaps I overlooked a corresponding note somewhere... Susanne Altenburger, PB&F ... From: Chester
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                              On BIRDWATCHER, does the hunting occur with the board down? Perhaps I overlooked a corresponding note somewhere...
                                              Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 1:04 PM
                                              Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                               

                                              To stop the charging at anchor of my Tennessee (EstherMae) I took a small sail and rigged it on the transom, in a fixed position.  It all but eliminated the problem during the one use it had last year just before Thanksgiving.  Prior to that if the wind was blowing strong enough it would occasionally jerk hard enough to wake a person.  I would call it a major improvement with minor investment.

                                              Caloosarat

                                              From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kellock
                                              Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:31 AM
                                              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                               

                                              Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various configurations. It charges at anchor from the bow and swings quite a bit less from the stern. However with the lugsail furled down into it's lazyjacks, both the leeboard and rudder raised (my feeling is that you don't want any underwater appendages impeding the hull aligning itself to the wind), and a jib pulled hard to the centre of the boat as a riding sail it hardly moves at all. I have a cleat on each quarter with a rope between and a bowline in the centre to which I attach the stern anchor.

                                              Despite all this, my preferred anchoring technique with these extreme shoal draft boats, if I am to sleep in them, is to anchor just off the shoreline in calf deep water with the bow to shore attached to a shoreline and the stern anchor in deeper water as it pounds much less than the bow.

                                              Cheers,

                                              Rob.

                                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason

                                            • Susanne@comcast.net
                                              Yep I did miss an obvious line just a couple posts earlier... Sleeping aboard #639 JOCHEMS schooner anchored out I don t recall hunting. Perhaps I was too
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                                Yep I did miss an obvious line just a couple posts earlier...  Sleeping aboard #639 JOCHEMS schooner anchored out I don't recall hunting.  Perhaps I was too tired that night.  Can't recall many particulars but I believe the sails were furled.  The other nights we were beached somewhere...

                                                Is Bob Stover in Oregon part of the Group ?  His #639 should offer insights, such as leeboard position, mainsail up when anchored, etc.  Do schooner-rigs help ?

                                                Susanne Altenburger, PB&F  
                                                 
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 8:52 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                                 

                                                On BIRDWATCHER, does the hunting occur with the board down? Perhaps I overlooked a corresponding note somewhere...
                                                Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 1:04 PM
                                                Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                                 

                                                To stop the charging at anchor of my Tennessee (EstherMae) I took a small sail and rigged it on the transom, in a fixed position.  It all but eliminated the problem during the one use it had last year just before Thanksgiving.  Prior to that if the wind was blowing strong enough it would occasionally jerk hard enough to wake a person.  I would call it a major improvement with minor investment.

                                                Caloosarat

                                                From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kellock
                                                Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:31 AM
                                                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                                 

                                                Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various configurations. It charges at anchor from the bow and swings quite a bit less from the stern. However with the lugsail furled down into it's lazyjacks, both the leeboard and rudder raised (my feeling is that you don't want any underwater appendages impeding the hull aligning itself to the wind), and a jib pulled hard to the centre of the boat as a riding sail it hardly moves at all. I have a cleat on each quarter with a rope between and a bowline in the centre to which I attach the stern anchor.

                                                Despite all this, my preferred anchoring technique with these extreme shoal draft boats, if I am to sleep in them, is to anchor just off the shoreline in calf deep water with the bow to shore attached to a shoreline and the stern anchor in deeper water as it pounds much less than the bow.

                                                Cheers,

                                                Rob.

                                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason

                                              • boblarkin02
                                                First, thanks Bruce for the isometrics. I always learn a lot from these. I have spent a bunch of nights at anchor with my BW-II, Wave Watcher. I have never
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Sep 7, 2010
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                                                  First, thanks Bruce for the isometrics. I always learn a lot from these.

                                                  I have spent a bunch of nights at anchor with my BW-II, Wave Watcher. I have never noticed it to sail around the anchor enough to be a problem. I always have the OCB down at least half way, as that allows full access to the stuff back behind. What I do notice, however is the ability of the long narrow sharpie hull to rotate beam to waves. Shelter from wakes is important at sleeping time.

                                                  Also, on sails, I am still using the big Solent lug when I am not alone. If single handing, the small main is great, and if it is a cruise, I leave the big sail at home.

                                                  I might add that my collection of sails for the BW-II (Solent main, small main, jib, and now maybe a mizzen) is the result of evolution, and if one has the luxury of planning things from the beginning, the sail choices would be different, most likely. For instance, if two of us go on a little cruise, we would like to take both mains. But this requires two booms and a yard, along with two mainsails. When you include all the personal items plus food, it makes a full boat! It would be nice to have all the flexibility, but only need one reefable mainsail and one boom.

                                                  BTW, I am headed to the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival in a few hours where the BW-II will be exhibited in the water. I hope to meet a bunch of Bolger enthusiasts there. I will be back in a week and catch up on this thread.

                                                  Bob Larkin
                                                  Corvallis, OR
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