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Isometric of Birdwatcher

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  • Bruce Hallman
    http://www.hallman.org/bolger/bw/ I know I have done an isometric of Birdwatcher before, but I just did another one because I wanted to pay a more attention to
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 2, 2010
      http://www.hallman.org/bolger/bw/

      I know I have done an isometric of Birdwatcher before, but I just did
      another one because I wanted to pay a more attention to the detailing.
      One thing I learned this time is that the lower rail below the window
      is a long stick with a double direction bend to it, which makes it a
      tricky piece to spring into shape. Probably best that shape it by
      spiling, or by using an expanded panel shape cutting the vertical
      curved edges to shape so that the only direction of bend is the
      horizontal.
    • Mason Smith
      Dear Bruce, It is great to see this isometrics of Birdwatcher. Makes me lonesome for her. I wonder where you got the jib? It looks pretty, but is it real? And
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 3, 2010
        Dear Bruce,
         
        It is great to see this isometrics of Birdwatcher. Makes me lonesome for her. I wonder where you got the jib? It looks pretty, but is it real? And where does it put the center of effort overall, in relation to the lateral plane? The first Birdwatcher plans didn't show a jib, so far as I know, except on the Solent Lug option, and there, if I have it right, the jib, much smaller, set flying well below the masthead, is tacked down to the forward starboard slope of the cabin-top in line with the off-center mast.
         
        I put such a jib, with roller furling, on my first (and the first-built) birdwatcher, and liked it a lot. My second BW had the Solent Lug rig and similar jib, as is seen in photos on the group. That rig was fast and lots of fun but the Solent Lug complicated life aboard quite a lot. Easier to step mast, easier to get all down, and so, overall, I think a safer rig as well as more powerful; but more work too.
         
        Finally, I don't know if I understand you on the rub-rail which you suggest needs to be spilled. The top edge of those sides is in fact a straight line, isn't it? Bottom edges too? Aren't the hull sides just straight rips of ply? So though the boat presents a very nice sweep of sheer, because of the sides' rake and the bottom's rocker, the rub-rail or stringer has to bend only one way. Even if it had to bend two ways it would be no problem to bend and fasten.
         
        By the way, Bolger was in a way represented at the Antique and Classic Boat Festival at Salem, MA, last weekend by Maggie and your faithful servant with the Micro Pelican, tied up to the same docks as all the other great boats that were really in the show. I was "judging," supposedly. We enjoyed ourselves, got a chance to sail out around the point toward Marblehead after the show broke up, and only regret not getting up to Gloucester to see Susanne, as we had hoped to do.
         
        Mason Smith
        Adirondack Goodboat
        68 North Point Road
        Long Lake, NY 12847
         
      • Mason Smith
        Dear Bruce, great to see the new birdwatcher isometrics. I am doubly puzzled by what you say about the rub-rail under the windows. I thought the side panels of
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 3, 2010
          Dear Bruce, great to see the new birdwatcher isometrics. I am doubly puzzled by what you say about the rub-rail under the windows. I thought the side panels of BW were straight 2-foot rips of ply and that the boat gets its nice sheer from the rake of sides and rocker of bottom. So it's really only a one-way bend. Second, even if the sides were not straight-edged, such long rails with compound curvature are easy enough to clamp and fasten.
           
          I am also puzzled by the masthead jib you show, not on any plans I ever saw. I put a nice smaller jib on the first BW, set flying on a roller-furler to a lower point on the mast and tacked to the forward sloping cabin top where it could be in line with the off-center mast. That was about the same as the jib on the Solent Lug rig of my second BW. Is the jib you drew for real? I doubt you could get enough luff tension for a good set with a masthead jib and wonder how you would do with it tacked so near the centerline of the boat when the mast is so far off-center. And what does it do to the balance?
           
          By the way, Phil Bolger was modestly represented at the Antique and Classic Boat Festival at Salem, MA last weekend. That is to say, Maggie and I were there, living aboard the Micro Pelican, while I (as it were) judged the show. We were tied up among the greats even though we were not in the show, and Maggie was kept busy explaining blunt ends and flooding wells to the passers-by. We managed a sail out of the bay and around the point, to look into Marblehead, but did not manage to run up to Gloucester and say hello to Susanne.
           
          On the way home a lady gave me a fat check for the Micro and we left it in the dark in central Vermont; but overnight the lady got the willies, too big a leap from her only other boat, a Tortoise. She is bringing the boat back to me tomorrow. I don't mind, but it is for sale, unemphatically, for $5000.
           
           
          Mason Smith
          Adirondack Goodboat
          68 North Point Road
          Long Lake, NY 12847
           
        • Bruce Hallman
          ... That version of Birdwatcher matches pretty closely the version of Birdwatcher shown in the Small Boat Journal article, called Cartoon 22, which I believe
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 3, 2010
            On Fri, Sep 3, 2010 at 5:48 AM, Mason Smith <masonsmith@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > Dear Bruce,
            >
            > It is great to see this isometrics of Birdwatcher. Makes me lonesome for her. I wonder where you got the jib? It looks pretty, but is it real?

            That version of Birdwatcher matches pretty closely the version of
            Birdwatcher shown in the Small Boat Journal article, called Cartoon
            22, which I believe was the 'debut' of Birdwatcher. PCB describes her
            as a boat to fill a request from L.D. Blotter of Odgen Utah, for a
            home built Dovekie.

            Regarding the jib, PCB writes: "I doubt the balloon jib is worth the
            cost or space. Set from the offset mast, it would work noticeable
            better on port tack. It would set best tacked on a pole,
            spinnaker-fashion, but that involves the extra spar and two guys to
            control it. I'd rather relax and look at the scenery."
          • prairiedog2332
            Mason, If you were to build another BW which rig would you mostly likely go with? Does the complications of the Solent rig off-set its light air advantages in
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 3, 2010
              Mason,

              If you were to build another BW which rig would you mostly likely go
              with? Does the complications of the Solent rig off-set its light air
              advantages in your view? I am assuming it has mostly to do with that
              fairly long yard, and keeping it aligned with the mast?

              Thanks, Nels


              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Mason Smith" <masonsmith@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Bruce,

              >
              > I put such a jib, with roller furling, on my first (and the
              first-built) birdwatcher, and liked it a lot. My second BW had the
              Solent Lug rig and similar jib, as is seen in photos on the group. That
              rig was fast and lots of fun but the Solent Lug complicated life aboard
              quite a lot. Easier to step mast, easier to get all down, and so,
              overall, I think a safer rig as well as more powerful; but more work
              too.
            • mason smith
              Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I d probably go for it. I solved the
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 3, 2010
                Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                 
                I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                 
                ---Mason
              • prairiedog2332
                Mason, Not sure it you have seen this article written by Bob Larkin regarding his Birdwatcher2? http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_sails2.htm This Birdwatcher
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 3, 2010
                  Mason,

                  Not sure it you have seen this article written by Bob Larkin regarding
                  his Birdwatcher2?

                  http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_sails2.htm

                  This Birdwatcher has even more sail area than the original solent
                  option, something like 144 sq. ft. main (same as original solent main
                  but 71 sq. ft. jib. (vs: 41 on the original) To compensate it has a
                  about 160 lb. centerboard.

                  Reading his article it occurs to me the smaller original jib may have
                  worked better! On the other hand it passes everything in sight at the
                  messabouts.

                  He ended up making a smaller main and leaving the yard at home when
                  going out solo, but then this leads to lee helm with that big jib. His
                  new main is only 85 sq. ft. which is considerably smaller than the
                  original leg o' mutton at 125 sq. ft.

                  He also mentions adding a small mizzen to help keep head up to the wind
                  when reefing. Or maybe just dropping the main and sailing under jib and
                  mizzen. I don't quite see where there is space in the stern for a
                  mizzen.

                  So this all has me scratching my head. Maybe having the solent rig that
                  comes with the original plans and using it when having crew available
                  and then a smaller leg o' mutton (with the shorter mast) and the option
                  of the little jib when going out solo. Add Bob's idea for converting it
                  to a sliding gunter?

                  I have the original plans which could be modified slightly adding a
                  weighted centerboard maybe or a doubled bottom and the anti-slap pad.
                  Would you keep the original steering set-up? And what do you think of
                  building with 3/8" MDO rather than 1/4" standard plywood?

                  Nels



                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use
                  the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I
                  solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                  downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
                  that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                  were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
                  to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
                  deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
                  compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
                  the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
                  nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                  times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
                  thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                  windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                  spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
                  as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
                  pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
                  Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                  rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                  problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
                  the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
                  alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                  >
                  > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                  biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
                  when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                  with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
                  could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
                  kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                  >
                  > ---Mason
                  >
                • Adirondack Goodboat
                  Nels, I hadn t read Bob Larkin s account of sailing the Birdwatcher 2 with his various sails and combinations. He certainly is a great observer and fixer and
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 4, 2010
                    Nels, I hadn't read Bob Larkin's account of sailing the Birdwatcher 2 with his various sails and combinations. He certainly is a great observer and fixer and experimenter, an asset to all who build the design. Everything he says makes good sense to me. I think my experience of bringing down the Solent lug was better, maybe because I never had particularly hard conditions. It comes down, is the main thing, and fast if you let it. I think I developed a practice whereby I kept downward tension on the luff while letting the halyard slip through the other hand, so as to keep the yard under control. I do that when lowering the standing lug on my Goodboats. It seemed important, if I remember rightly, to be able to let the foot of the yard go forward as it comes down. Except for that, and if it is satisfactory in passing by the snotter block, I guess I can see the contraption at the foot of the yard, turning the rig into a gunther. I tried a sort of parrel which I attached once the foot of the yard was high enough, and the first owner/builder had a shock cord arrangement along the mast to tame the heel of the yard, but in the end I decided to let the solent be the solent.
                     
                    I think the best of all these solutions for the Birdwatcher for most of us would be the original leg o' mutton sail, with its luff on a track, and the small jib tacked on deck.
                     
                    I too always thought of a mizzen, if only for a steadying sail. I tried a drogue from the bow, but the darn boat sailed around that as badly as around an anchor. So perhaps a short spar with a patch of canvas furled on it, a sprit boom, and two sheets, with a step and partner as far forward as possible, just to clear the main spritboom? But again, too complicated.
                     
                    Birdwatcher 1, motor mount sticking through the side, jib, steering as designed, motor seldom used, oars for all close maneuvers.  That would be my formula.  ---Mason
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 4:11 PM
                    Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                     

                    Mason,

                    Not sure it you have seen this article written by Bob Larkin regarding
                    his Birdwatcher2?

                    http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_sails2.htm

                    This Birdwatcher has even more sail area than the original solent
                    option, something like 144 sq. ft. main (same as original solent main
                    but 71 sq. ft. jib. (vs: 41 on the original) To compensate it has a
                    about 160 lb. centerboard.

                    Reading his article it occurs to me the smaller original jib may have
                    worked better! On the other hand it passes everything in sight at the
                    messabouts.

                    He ended up making a smaller main and leaving the yard at home when
                    going out solo, but then this leads to lee helm with that big jib. His
                    new main is only 85 sq. ft. which is considerably smaller than the
                    original leg o' mutton at 125 sq. ft.

                    He also mentions adding a small mizzen to help keep head up to the wind
                    when reefing. Or maybe just dropping the main and sailing under jib and
                    mizzen. I don't quite see where there is space in the stern for a
                    mizzen.

                    So this all has me scratching my head. Maybe having the solent rig that
                    comes with the original plans and using it when having crew available
                    and then a smaller leg o' mutton (with the shorter mast) and the option
                    of the little jib when going out solo. Add Bob's idea for converting it
                    to a sliding gunter?

                    I have the original plans which could be modified slightly adding a
                    weighted centerboard maybe or a doubled bottom and the anti-slap pad.
                    Would you keep the original steering set-up? And what do you think of
                    building with 3/8" MDO rather than 1/4" standard plywood?

                    Nels

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use
                    the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I
                    solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                    downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
                    that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                    were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
                    to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
                    deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
                    compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
                    the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
                    nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                    times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
                    thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                    windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                    spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
                    as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
                    pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
                    Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                    rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                    problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
                    the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
                    alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                    >
                    > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                    biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
                    when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                    with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
                    could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
                    kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                    >
                    > ---Mason
                    >

                  • Eric
                    If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 4, 2010
                      If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable. Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be easy to switch to bow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode. However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                      Eric


                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                      >
                      > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                      >
                      > ---Mason
                      >
                    • prairiedog2332
                      Mason, Definitely a track on the main would help I would think. Too bad one could not install a track on the yard. Can t help thinking maybe a bit smaller
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 4, 2010
                        Mason,

                        Definitely a track on the main would help I would think. Too bad one
                        could not install a track on the yard. Can't help thinking maybe a bit
                        smaller sail with no battens and a lighter yard as well. Maybe carbon
                        fiber or an old windsurfer mast?

                        Maybe if going out solo just reef the solent rig before heading out?
                        Probably a second shorter sprit boom so the forward end doesn't hang up
                        on the jib when tacking? Sure, it doesn't look as "neat" at the foot
                        but that area of the sail is not in much wind anyway. Is it easier to
                        shake out a reef than tie one in, in case the wind goes light and looks
                        like it will stay that way?

                        Looks like this would bring the top of the yard down to about the height
                        of the original mast and bottom of it down to a reachable height if you
                        want to drop it into the slot.

                        http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/Image1.jpg

                        Do you think a 3.5 would work on a bracket? I have a line on a 3.5
                        2-stroke Tohatsu. (with reverse)

                        Nels


                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Nels, I hadn't read Bob Larkin's account of sailing the Birdwatcher 2
                        with his various sails and combinations. He certainly is a great
                        observer and fixer and experimenter, an asset to all who build the
                        design. Everything he says makes good sense to me. I think my experience
                        of bringing down the Solent lug was better, maybe because I never had
                        particularly hard conditions. It comes down, is the main thing, and fast
                        if you let it. I think I developed a practice whereby I kept downward
                        tension on the luff while letting the halyard slip through the other
                        hand, so as to keep the yard under control. I do that when lowering the
                        standing lug on my Goodboats. It seemed important, if I remember
                        rightly, to be able to let the foot of the yard go forward as it comes
                        down. Except for that, and if it is satisfactory in passing by the
                        snotter block, I guess I can see the contraption at the foot of the
                        yard, turning the rig into a gunther. I tried a sort of parrel which I
                        attached once the foot of the yard was high enough, and the first
                        owner/builder had a shock cord arrangement along the mast to tame the
                        heel of the yard, but in the end I decided to let the solent be the
                        solent.
                        >
                        > I think the best of all these solutions for the Birdwatcher for most
                        of us would be the original leg o' mutton sail, with its luff on a
                        track, and the small jib tacked on deck.
                        >
                        > I too always thought of a mizzen, if only for a steadying sail. I
                        tried a drogue from the bow, but the darn boat sailed around that as
                        badly as around an anchor. So perhaps a short spar with a patch of
                        canvas furled on it, a sprit boom, and two sheets, with a step and
                        partner as far forward as possible, just to clear the main spritboom?
                        But again, too complicated.
                        >
                        > Birdwatcher 1, motor mount sticking through the side, jib, steering as
                        designed, motor seldom used, oars for all close maneuvers. That would
                        be my formula. ---Mason
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: prairiedog2332
                        > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 4:11 PM
                        > Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Mason,
                        >
                        > Not sure it you have seen this article written by Bob Larkin
                        regarding
                        > his Birdwatcher2?
                        >
                        > http://www.proaxis.com/~boblark/bw2_sails2.htm
                        >
                        > This Birdwatcher has even more sail area than the original solent
                        > option, something like 144 sq. ft. main (same as original solent
                        main
                        > but 71 sq. ft. jib. (vs: 41 on the original) To compensate it has a
                        > about 160 lb. centerboard.
                        >
                        > Reading his article it occurs to me the smaller original jib may
                        have
                        > worked better! On the other hand it passes everything in sight at
                        the
                        > messabouts.
                        >
                        > He ended up making a smaller main and leaving the yard at home when
                        > going out solo, but then this leads to lee helm with that big jib.
                        His
                        > new main is only 85 sq. ft. which is considerably smaller than the
                        > original leg o' mutton at 125 sq. ft.
                        >
                        > He also mentions adding a small mizzen to help keep head up to the
                        wind
                        > when reefing. Or maybe just dropping the main and sailing under jib
                        and
                        > mizzen. I don't quite see where there is space in the stern for a
                        > mizzen.
                        >
                        > So this all has me scratching my head. Maybe having the solent rig
                        that
                        > comes with the original plans and using it when having crew
                        available
                        > and then a smaller leg o' mutton (with the shorter mast) and the
                        option
                        > of the little jib when going out solo. Add Bob's idea for converting
                        it
                        > to a sliding gunter?
                        >
                        > I have the original plans which could be modified slightly adding a
                        > weighted centerboard maybe or a doubled bottom and the anti-slap
                        pad.
                        > Would you keep the original steering set-up? And what do you think
                        of
                        > building with 3/8" MDO rather than 1/4" standard plywood?
                        >
                        > Nels
                        >
                        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" goodboat@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to
                        use
                        > the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it.
                        I
                        > solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                        > downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I
                        did
                        > that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                        > were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner
                        bracing
                        > to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters
                        on
                        > deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But
                        as
                        > compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech,
                        dropping
                        > the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order
                        was a
                        > nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                        > times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want
                        the
                        > thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                        > windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                        > spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar
                        where
                        > as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it
                        could
                        > pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at
                        the No
                        > Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                        > rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                        > problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not,
                        keep
                        > the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor,
                        lickety-hell,
                        > alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                        > >
                        > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                        > biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the
                        cabin/cockpit
                        > when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                        > with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled
                        what I
                        > could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang
                        inside,
                        > kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                        > >
                        > > ---Mason
                        > >
                        >
                      • prairiedog2332
                        Sounds to me like a very good thought. Where I am located there is a lot of sand beaches. No tides. So had thought to just haul up a bit on the beach in a
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 4, 2010
                          Sounds to me like a very good thought.

                          Where I am located there is a lot of sand beaches. No tides. So had
                          thought to just haul up a bit on the beach in a sheltered spot and tie
                          to a tree. Drop an anchor off the stern.

                          What are your thoughts on a small flat storm jib sheeted in, if
                          anchoring off the stern?

                          Nels


                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and
                          construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring?
                          Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there
                          any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is
                          the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose
                          of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable.
                          Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow
                          anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from
                          the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be
                          desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over
                          cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the
                          wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a
                          quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it
                          is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be
                          easy to switch to bow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the
                          anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode.
                          However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and
                          raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem
                          what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with
                          which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                          > Eric
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" goodboat@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to
                          use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it.
                          I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                          downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
                          that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                          were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
                          to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
                          deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
                          compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
                          the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
                          nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                          times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
                          thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                          windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                          spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
                          as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
                          pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
                          Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                          rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                          problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
                          the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
                          alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                          > >
                          > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                          biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
                          when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                          with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
                          could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
                          kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                          > >
                          > > ---Mason
                          > >
                          >
                        • Eric
                          I would expect the windage and location of the mast on Birdwatcher are sufficient to cause Birdwatcher to lie happily to its anchor if anchored from the stern
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 4, 2010
                            I would expect the windage and location of the mast on Birdwatcher are sufficient to cause Birdwatcher to lie happily to its anchor if anchored from the stern rather than the bow. I like the uncomplicated elegance of function of Birdwatcher and think another boat should be chosen before adding complication. Hopefully even a little chunk of extra sail and its extra lines would not be needed.

                            I just realized Whalewatcher is yawl rigged and the mizzen might as well be built as an effective riding sail so Whalewatcher will lie happily to a bow anchor.
                            Eric

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Sounds to me like a very good thought.
                            >
                            > Where I am located there is a lot of sand beaches. No tides. So had
                            > thought to just haul up a bit on the beach in a sheltered spot and tie
                            > to a tree. Drop an anchor off the stern.
                            >
                            > What are your thoughts on a small flat storm jib sheeted in, if
                            > anchoring off the stern?
                            >
                            > Nels
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and
                            > construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring?
                            > Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there
                            > any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is
                            > the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose
                            > of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable.
                            > Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow
                            > anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from
                            > the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be
                            > desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over
                            > cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the
                            > wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a
                            > quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it
                            > is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be
                            > easy to switch to bow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the
                            > anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode.
                            > However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and
                            > raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem
                            > what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with
                            > which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                            > > Eric
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" goodboat@ wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to
                            > use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it.
                            > I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                            > downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
                            > that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                            > were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
                            > to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
                            > deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
                            > compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
                            > the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
                            > nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                            > times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
                            > thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                            > windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                            > spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
                            > as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
                            > pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
                            > Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                            > rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                            > problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
                            > the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
                            > alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                            > > >
                            > > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                            > biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
                            > when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                            > with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
                            > could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
                            > kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                            > > >
                            > > > ---Mason
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Adirondack Goodboat
                            I believe we did try stern anchoring the Birdwatcher and the boat still swept huge arcs at high speed. It seemed to me that the hull becomes an airfoil,
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 5, 2010
                              I believe we did try stern anchoring the Birdwatcher and the boat still swept huge arcs at high speed. It seemed to me that the hull becomes an airfoil, developing high pressure and low pressure sides, and flies until it can fly no more, on each tack.
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Eric
                              Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 6:04 PM
                              Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                               

                              If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable. Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be easy to switch to b ow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode. However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                              Eric

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the s par with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                              >
                              > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                              >
                              > ---Mason
                              >

                            • Eric
                              Then riding sail it is. A V of sail would be most effective with the ends of the V fastened to quarter cleats. If flown off a temporary back stay bow
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 5, 2010
                                Then riding sail it is. A V of sail would be most effective with the ends of the V fastened to quarter cleats. If flown off a temporary back stay bow anchoring would be possible. I'd probably stern anchor and fly the V wrapped around the mast and ends to quarter cleats. Glad to hear you tried stern anchoring. I'm surprised it didn't tame things.
                                Eric

                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I believe we did try stern anchoring the Birdwatcher and the boat still swept huge arcs at high speed. It seemed to me that the hull becomes an airfoil, developing high pressure and low pressure sides, and flies until it can fly no more, on each tack.
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Eric
                                > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 6:04 PM
                                > Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable. Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be easy to switch to b ow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode. However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                                > Eric
                                >
                                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the s par with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                                > >
                                > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                                > >
                                > > ---Mason
                                > >
                                >
                              • Adirondack Goodboat
                                Rick suggests beaching and really that s the answer where possible. I think where Phil envisioned this boat being used most, like the Dovekie, salt marshes and
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 5, 2010
                                  Rick suggests beaching and really that's the answer where possible. I think where Phil envisioned this boat being used most, like the Dovekie, salt marshes and tidal estuaries, you'd seldom anchor in the open, very often put out a stern anchor and run the boat on the beach or just anchor in shallow, sheltered places, very close in to shore. I'm thinking of one beautiful full moon night on the Crooked River, in Georgia, just inside Cumberland Island. Such a lovely anchorage! But with the full moon and a nice breeze I couldn't pass up sailing for an hour in the middle of the night. Kept running the bow into the grasses in the shadows and having to pole back out into the stream. I don't know if Dovekie would sail around her anchor or not and don't care. ---Mason
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 8:47 PM
                                  Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                   

                                  Sounds to me like a very good thought.

                                  Where I am located there is a lot of sand beaches. No tides. So had
                                  thought to just haul up a bit on the beach in a sheltered spot and tie
                                  to a tree. Drop an anchor off the stern.

                                  What are your thoughts on a small flat storm jib sheeted in, if
                                  anchoring off the stern?

                                  Nels

                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and
                                  construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring?
                                  Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there
                                  any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is
                                  the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose
                                  of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable.
                                  Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow
                                  anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from
                                  the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be
                                  desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over
                                  cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the
                                  wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a
                                  quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it
                                  is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be
                                  easy to switch to bow anchoring by attaching a line from the bow to the
                                  anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode.
                                  However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and
                                  raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem
                                  what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with
                                  which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                                  > Eric
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" goodboat@ wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to
                                  use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it.
                                  I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good
                                  downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did
                                  that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it
                                  were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing
                                  to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on
                                  deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as
                                  compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping
                                  the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a
                                  nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some
                                  times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the
                                  thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the
                                  windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take down the
                                  spar with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where
                                  as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could
                                  pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No
                                  Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight
                                  rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the
                                  problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep
                                  the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell,
                                  alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                                  > >
                                  > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the
                                  biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit
                                  when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all
                                  with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I
                                  could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside,
                                  kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                                  > >
                                  > > ---Mason
                                  > >
                                  >

                                • Bruce Hallman
                                  ... Just curious, did you try anchoring with the dagger board down? How did that effect the stability at anchor? The physics of why boats swing around their
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 5, 2010
                                    >anchorage! . ---Mason

                                    Just curious, did you try anchoring with the dagger board down? How
                                    did that effect the stability at anchor? The physics of why boats
                                    swing around their anchor escapes my logic. I also wonder if dropping
                                    overboard a 5 gallon bucket on a rope might tame things.
                                  • Eric
                                    No expertise but will begin the discussion of why boats swing at anchor: Hull shape: Sailboats are designed so that almost any force applied to the hull will
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 5, 2010
                                      No expertise but will begin the discussion of why boats swing at anchor: Hull shape: Sailboats are designed so that almost any force applied to the hull will cause it to move forward. Windage and CLR (Center of Lateral Resistance). On the same hull a schooner will lie quieter to its anchor than a ketch, yawl, sloop, cutter, or cat. Traditional cats have full keels and lie quietly to their anchor, as do most if not all full keel sailboats. Modern sloops/cutters have shallow hulls and fin keels whose CLR is aft of the significant windage of the mast and its rigging, and they charge back and forth at anchor. Riding sails rigged from back stays and mizzen masts tame things considerably. Though a five gallon bucket would work marginally, an anchor or bucket full of sand/rocks or any other weight at the end of a rope just a bit longer than the depth of the water can be used effectively to quiet things as it drags along the bottom (not ecological). Two anchors in a V on out to 180* Bahamian Moor can also help but this reduces the effectiveness of each anchor for the same reasons that reaching up to pull the halyard out from the mast so as to be able to haul it a little tighter gives you extra leverage pulling the peak of the sail up (or anchor out when anchoring).
                                      Eric

                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >anchorage! . ---Mason
                                      >
                                      > Just curious, did you try anchoring with the dagger board down? How
                                      > did that effect the stability at anchor? The physics of why boats
                                      > swing around their anchor escapes my logic. I also wonder if dropping
                                      > overboard a 5 gallon bucket on a rope might tame things.
                                      >
                                    • Adirondack Goodboat
                                      No daggerboard on Birdwatcher and no experience anchoring Dovekie in a blow but I suspect the daggerboard would help some. We surely must have tried the
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 6, 2010
                                        No daggerboard on Birdwatcher and no experience anchoring Dovekie in a blow but I suspect the daggerboard would help some. We surely must have tried the centerboard down in anchoring the Birdwatchers without preventing the swinging. The bucket idea is similar to the idea of veering out a drogue astern and I think it would help or at least shorten the range of the swinging. I didn't have my Birdwatchers long enough to confront this problem and possibly solve it.
                                         
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 7:10 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                         

                                        >anchorage! . ---Mason

                                        Just curious, did you try anchoring with the dagger board down? How
                                        did that effect the stability at anchor? The physics of why boats
                                        swing around their anchor escapes my logic. I also wonder if dropping
                                        overboard a 5 gallon bucket on a rope might tame things.

                                      • Adirondack Goodboat
                                        Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn t guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 6, 2010
                                          Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Eric
                                          Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 10:44 AM
                                          Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                           

                                          Then riding sail it is. A V of sail would be most effective with the ends of the V fastened to quarter cleats. If flown off a temporary back stay bow anchoring would be possible. I'd probably stern anchor and fly the V wrapped around the mast and ends to quarter cleats. Glad to hear you tried stern anchoring. I'm surprised it didn't tame things.
                                          Eric

                                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I believe we did try stern anchoring the Birdwatcher and the boat still swept huge arcs at high speed. It seemed to me that the hull becomes an airfoil, developing high pressure and low pressure sides, and flies until it can fly no more, on each tack.
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: Eric
                                          > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 6:04 PM
                                          > Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > If we are going to think out of the box considering shape and construction of boats why not think out of the box about anchoring? Whatever driving sails are best for Birdwatcher or Whalewatcher is there any good reason not to anchor from the stern and pretend the stern is the bow? That would make the boat very stable at anchor. The purpose of anchoring is to keep the boat safe and the crew comfortable. Anchoring from the stern does both these things better than bow anchoring a boat that does not lie well to a bow anchor. Anchoring from the stern would make the cockpit foremost to the wind which would be desirable when it is hot. It might interfere with a tented over cockpit, but I would think the tent could be arranged to deal with the wind from that direction. Another possibility is to anchor from a quarter cleat to tame the trashing back and forth, but I don't think it is as good a solution as stern anchoring. To get underway it would be easy to switch to b ow anchor ing by attaching a line from the bow to the anchor rode using a rolling hitch and then releasing the anchor rode. However, Chinese Lug (junk) and Balanced Lug sails can be lowered and raised on any point of sail so stern anchoring is no problem what-so-ever, so any boat rigged this way need not be concerned with which end of the boat the anchor line extends from.
                                          > Eric
                                          >
                                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "mason smith" <goodboat@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Nels, that would take some thinking. That is, to decide whether to use the Solent Lug or not on another Birdwtcher. I'd probably go for it. I solved the problems of rigging well enough. You need a very good downhaul setup to get enough tension on the halyard and luff, and I did that with a two-part downhaul using the crincle in the tack as if it were a block, and leading the fall down through the mast partner bracing to a cleat farther down on the mast. Also solved the storage matters on deck for the extra spar, the yard. I liked the extra horsepower. But as compared with furling by rolling the mainsail up on its leech, dropping the whole sail inboard and then fisting it into some sort of order was a nuisance. One could leave the yard up and roll from the leech some times, but the windage would be great in any breeze and you'd want the thing down. That can be a worse problem with the simpler sail: the windage can be so great that it is dangerous to try to take dow n the s par with furled sail on it. There's a point in lowering that spar where as a huge lever it has the advantage of you, and it feels as if it could pry apart the boat. Phil and Susanne and I met such conditions at the No Octane Regatta, and left the rig up and the boat at anchor overnight rather than risk a disaster in lowering it. Such would never be the problem with the Solent. By the way we could not, or I could not, keep the Birdwatcher from swinging hugely around its anchor, lickety-hell, alike to sever the head from any swimmer near.
                                          > >
                                          > > I would say that the Lug is ultimately a safer rig and that the biggest disadvantage with it is having the sail fill the cabin/cockpit when you drop it. This would, by the way, be no great problem at all with another person helping. I speak from doing it solo. I furled what I could to the yard and let much of the lower forward part hang inside, kinda messy when it wasn't bagged.
                                          > >
                                          > > ---Mason
                                          > >
                                          >

                                        • Rob Kellock
                                          Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 7, 2010
                                            Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various configurations. It charges at anchor from the bow and swings quite a bit less from the stern. However with the lugsail furled down into it's lazyjacks, both the leeboard and rudder raised (my feeling is that you don't want any underwater appendages impeding the hull aligning itself to the wind), and a jib pulled hard to the centre of the boat as a riding sail it hardly moves at all. I have a cleat on each quarter with a rope between and a bowline in the centre to which I attach the stern anchor.

                                            Despite all this, my preferred anchoring technique with these extreme shoal draft boats, if I am to sleep in them, is to anchor just off the shoreline in calf deep water with the bow to shore attached to a shoreline and the stern anchor in deeper water as it pounds much less than the bow.

                                            Cheers,

                                            Rob.

                                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason
                                          • Chester Young
                                            To stop the charging at anchor of my Tennessee (EstherMae) I took a small sail and rigged it on the transom, in a fixed position. It all but eliminated the
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Sep 7, 2010

                                              To stop the charging at anchor of my Tennessee (EstherMae) I took a small sail and rigged it on the transom, in a fixed position.  It all but eliminated the problem during the one use it had last year just before Thanksgiving.  Prior to that if the wind was blowing strong enough it would occasionally jerk hard enough to wake a person.  I would call it a major improvement with minor investment.

                                               

                                              Caloosarat

                                               

                                              From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kellock
                                              Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:31 AM
                                              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                               

                                               

                                              Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various configurations. It charges at anchor from the bow and swings quite a bit less from the stern. However with the lugsail furled down into it's lazyjacks, both the leeboard and rudder raised (my feeling is that you don't want any underwater appendages impeding the hull aligning itself to the wind), and a jib pulled hard to the centre of the boat as a riding sail it hardly moves at all. I have a cleat on each quarter with a rope between and a bowline in the centre to which I attach the stern anchor.

                                              Despite all this, my preferred anchoring technique with these extreme shoal draft boats, if I am to sleep in them, is to anchor just off the shoreline in calf deep water with the bow to shore attached to a shoreline and the stern anchor in deeper water as it pounds much less than the bow.

                                              Cheers,

                                              Rob.

                                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:

                                              >
                                              > Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the
                                              spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason

                                            • Susanne@comcast.net
                                              On BIRDWATCHER, does the hunting occur with the board down? Perhaps I overlooked a corresponding note somewhere... Susanne Altenburger, PB&F ... From: Chester
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Sep 7, 2010
                                                On BIRDWATCHER, does the hunting occur with the board down? Perhaps I overlooked a corresponding note somewhere...
                                                Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 1:04 PM
                                                Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                                 

                                                To stop the charging at anchor of my Tennessee (EstherMae) I took a small sail and rigged it on the transom, in a fixed position.  It all but eliminated the problem during the one use it had last year just before Thanksgiving.  Prior to that if the wind was blowing strong enough it would occasionally jerk hard enough to wake a person.  I would call it a major improvement with minor investment.

                                                Caloosarat

                                                From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kellock
                                                Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:31 AM
                                                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                                 

                                                Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various configurations. It charges at anchor from the bow and swings quite a bit less from the stern. However with the lugsail furled down into it's lazyjacks, both the leeboard and rudder raised (my feeling is that you don't want any underwater appendages impeding the hull aligning itself to the wind), and a jib pulled hard to the centre of the boat as a riding sail it hardly moves at all. I have a cleat on each quarter with a rope between and a bowline in the centre to which I attach the stern anchor.

                                                Despite all this, my preferred anchoring technique with these extreme shoal draft boats, if I am to sleep in them, is to anchor just off the shoreline in calf deep water with the bow to shore attached to a shoreline and the stern anchor in deeper water as it pounds much less than the bow.

                                                Cheers,

                                                Rob.

                                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason

                                              • Susanne@comcast.net
                                                Yep I did miss an obvious line just a couple posts earlier... Sleeping aboard #639 JOCHEMS schooner anchored out I don t recall hunting. Perhaps I was too
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Sep 7, 2010
                                                  Yep I did miss an obvious line just a couple posts earlier...  Sleeping aboard #639 JOCHEMS schooner anchored out I don't recall hunting.  Perhaps I was too tired that night.  Can't recall many particulars but I believe the sails were furled.  The other nights we were beached somewhere...

                                                  Is Bob Stover in Oregon part of the Group ?  His #639 should offer insights, such as leeboard position, mainsail up when anchored, etc.  Do schooner-rigs help ?

                                                  Susanne Altenburger, PB&F  
                                                   
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 8:52 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                                   

                                                  On BIRDWATCHER, does the hunting occur with the board down? Perhaps I overlooked a corresponding note somewhere...
                                                  Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 1:04 PM
                                                  Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                                   

                                                  To stop the charging at anchor of my Tennessee (EstherMae) I took a small sail and rigged it on the transom, in a fixed position.  It all but eliminated the problem during the one use it had last year just before Thanksgiving.  Prior to that if the wind was blowing strong enough it would occasionally jerk hard enough to wake a person.  I would call it a major improvement with minor investment.

                                                  Caloosarat

                                                  From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rob Kellock
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 4:31 AM
                                                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [bolger] Re: Isometric of Birdwatcher

                                                   

                                                  Dunno about Birdwatcher, but I have tested my Michalak Philsboat (a smaller Birdwatcher cabin style sailboat with a transom stern) at anchor in various configurations. It charges at anchor from the bow and swings quite a bit less from the stern. However with the lugsail furled down into it's lazyjacks, both the leeboard and rudder raised (my feeling is that you don't want any underwater appendages impeding the hull aligning itself to the wind), and a jib pulled hard to the centre of the boat as a riding sail it hardly moves at all. I have a cleat on each quarter with a rope between and a bowline in the centre to which I attach the stern anchor.

                                                  Despite all this, my preferred anchoring technique with these extreme shoal draft boats, if I am to sleep in them, is to anchor just off the shoreline in calf deep water with the bow to shore attached to a shoreline and the stern anchor in deeper water as it pounds much less than the bow.

                                                  Cheers,

                                                  Rob.

                                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Adirondack Goodboat" <goodboat@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Well, try your V sail from mast and stern anchoring, but doing so in the spirit of experiment. I wouldn't guarantee a thing but I have just thought of another argument in favor of stern anchoring. It is that you will probably be trimming the boat by the bow if you are aboard, especially two of you, and thus you might contribute to help the boat weathervane more steadily. Tidal current would reverse the effect, no? But we are not talking about tide. -- Mason

                                                • boblarkin02
                                                  First, thanks Bruce for the isometrics. I always learn a lot from these. I have spent a bunch of nights at anchor with my BW-II, Wave Watcher. I have never
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Sep 7, 2010
                                                    First, thanks Bruce for the isometrics. I always learn a lot from these.

                                                    I have spent a bunch of nights at anchor with my BW-II, Wave Watcher. I have never noticed it to sail around the anchor enough to be a problem. I always have the OCB down at least half way, as that allows full access to the stuff back behind. What I do notice, however is the ability of the long narrow sharpie hull to rotate beam to waves. Shelter from wakes is important at sleeping time.

                                                    Also, on sails, I am still using the big Solent lug when I am not alone. If single handing, the small main is great, and if it is a cruise, I leave the big sail at home.

                                                    I might add that my collection of sails for the BW-II (Solent main, small main, jib, and now maybe a mizzen) is the result of evolution, and if one has the luxury of planning things from the beginning, the sail choices would be different, most likely. For instance, if two of us go on a little cruise, we would like to take both mains. But this requires two booms and a yard, along with two mainsails. When you include all the personal items plus food, it makes a full boat! It would be nice to have all the flexibility, but only need one reefable mainsail and one boom.

                                                    BTW, I am headed to the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival in a few hours where the BW-II will be exhibited in the water. I hope to meet a bunch of Bolger enthusiasts there. I will be back in a week and catch up on this thread.

                                                    Bob Larkin
                                                    Corvallis, OR
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