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630

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  • shortdottedline@comcast.net
    While corresponding with Phil re the designing of 630, he suggested I build a model. I did so out of poster board, It actually turned out very well and is a
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 20 5:35 AM
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      While corresponding with Phil re the designing of 630, he suggested I build a model. I did so out of poster board, It actually turned out very well and is a stunningly good replica of the idea of the 20's cruiser. I wish I had saved the photos. I believe with careful selections of materials and a lot of sweat equity and use of a lot  lay help this project would be surprisingly inexpensive for a boat of its size. One must remember that it is a long puppy, but quite narrow, so the materials are rather more modest. ( the beam being narrow makes it efficient and relatively fast for its length) So much of its construction is very straight forward with few compound angles and curves, so could be done rapidly but would need a couple of handy helpers with muscle to handle the 300 of so 1/2 in ply panels.Much of the furnishing were to be off the shelf stuff, furniture , mattresses, plumbing etc.  Phis. suggested such things as a floor sander as many flat panels are used. I t was fascinating to see the ides flow from both of them. I was sorry to have been unable to complete it. if for no other reason than to see the continuing innovations from them!

      ed

    • Bruce Hallman
      ... I have also spent a lot of time building #630 in my head. I would be very much inclined to use the MDO plywood which is presheathed with resin & fiber.
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 20 8:43 AM
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        On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:35 AM, <shortdottedline@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > While corresponding with Phil re the designing of 630, he suggested I build a model. I did so out of poster board, It actually turned out very well and is a stunningly good replica of the idea of the 20's cruiser. I wish I had saved the photos. I believe with careful selections of materials and a lot of sweat equity and use of a lot  lay help this project would be surprisingly inexpensive for a boat of its size. One must remember that it is a long puppy, but quite narrow, so the materials are rather more modest. ( the beam being narrow makes it efficient and relatively fast for its length) So much of its construction is very straight forward with few compound angles and curves, so could be done rapidly but would need a couple of handy helpers with muscle to handle the 300 of so 1/2 in ply panels.Much of the furnishing were to be off the shelf stuff, furniture , mattresses, plumbing etc.  Phis. suggested such things as a floor sander as many flat panels are used. I t was fascinating to see the ides flow from both of them. I was sorry to have been unable to complete it. if for no other reason than to see the continuing innovations from them!
        >
        > ed
        >


        I have also spent a lot of time building #630 in my head. I would be
        very much inclined to use the MDO plywood which is presheathed with
        resin & fiber. (The commercial sign builders use the stuff and it
        handles being exposed to weather pretty good.) That could save 500
        hours of sanding and 1,000 sanding belts. Alternately, it might make
        sense to enlist the help of a commercial floor sanding company, as
        those guys really know how to sand big flat areas quickly. The one I
        do business with uses a really powerful 220V floor sander.
      • Susanne@comcast.net
        Hello All, the good thing is that only the outside surfaces need sanding, and not much, if gravity is used for assembly of all panels small and full-length.
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 20 9:17 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello All,
          the good thing is that only the 'outside' surfaces need sanding, and not much, if gravity is used for assembly of all panels small and full-length.  Without drips, runs, bubbles etc. plus a coat of easily sandable light filler for cloth-weave cosmetics, the overall effort should be minimizable. 

          With just the 'outside' surfaces of concern, and the 'bilge/sole' likely covered in flooring anyway - if not covered in floorboards -  there is only the outward-face areas to plan on.  And below boot-top levels, cloth-weave will be filled quickly with bottom-paint if skim-coating light filler is not done.  Which leaves significant topsides and deck(s) surface area, but with gravity-correct assembly principles should be controllable.

          On her scale we'd likely want to have seen a serious experiment on laminations of MDO on bottom- and topsides-panels versus marine-ply and compare cost, effort and relative rot-resistance under epoxy&glass.  Do 'Payson-Joints' work any differently in the MDO universe ?  

          In light of all this, a tractor-trailer load of 1/2" might not impress the floor-sander much after all. 
          Susanne Altenburger, PB&F 

          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:43 AM
          Subject: Re: [bolger] 630

           

          On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:35 AM, <shortdottedline@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > While corresponding with Phil re the designing of 630, he suggested I build a model. I did so out of poster board, It actually turned out very well and is a stunningly good replica of the idea of the 20's cruiser. I wish I had saved the photos. I believe with careful selections of materials and a lot of sweat equity and use of a lot  lay help this project would be surprisingly inexpensive for a boat of its size. One must remember that it is a long puppy, but quite narrow, so the materials are rather more modest. ( the beam being narrow makes it efficient and relatively fast for its length) So much of its construction is very straight forward with few compound angles and curves, so could be done rapidly but would need a couple of handy helpers with muscle to handle the 300 of so 1/2 in ply panels.Much of the furnishing were to be off the shelf stuff, furniture , mattresses, plumbing etc.  Phis. suggested such things as a floor sander as many flat panels are used. I t was fascinating to see the ides flow from both of them. I was sorry to have been unable to complete it. if for no other reason than to see the continuing innovations from them!
          >
          > ed
          >

          I have also spent a lot of time building #630 in my head. I would be
          very much inclined to use the MDO plywood which is presheathed with
          resin & fiber. (The commercial sign builders use the stuff and it
          handles being exposed to weather pretty good.) That could save 500
          hours of sanding and 1,000 sanding belts. Alternately, it might make
          sense to enlist the help of a commercial floor sanding company, as
          those guys really know how to sand big flat areas quickly. The one I
          do business with uses a really powerful 220V floor sander.

        • John and Kathy Trussell
          MDO (at least Olympic brand) is very good stuff. Unfortunately, it is not available in ¼” thickness or I would use it for all my boatbuilding. I built a
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 20 10:46 AM
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            MDO (at least Olympic brand) is very good stuff.  Unfortunately, it is not available in ¼” thickness or I would use it for all my boatbuilding. I built a boat out 0f 3/8’s and the only imperfections I found were an occasional pin knot in one of the plys.

             

            I am of the opinion that MDO is good because highway departments set high specifications and buy large quantities to use for signs. Boat builders represent a much smaller market and we just don’t have the economic clout to compel plywood manufacturers to build their products to our specs.

             

            JohnT 

             


            From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bruce Hallman
            Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:44 AM
            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [bolger] 630

             

             

            On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:35 AM, <shortdottedline@...> wrote:

            >
            >
            >
            > While corresponding with Phil re the designing of 630, he suggested I
            build a model. I did so out of poster board, It actually turned out very well and is a stunningly good replica of the idea of the 20's cruiser. I wish I had saved the photos. I believe with careful selections of materials and a lot of sweat equity and use of a lot  lay help this project would be surprisingly inexpensive for a boat of its size. One must remember that it is a long puppy, but quite narrow, so the materials are rather more modest. ( the beam being narrow makes it efficient and relatively fast for its length) So much of its construction is very straight forward with few compound angles and curves, so could be done rapidly but would need a couple of handy helpers with muscle to handle the 300 of so 1/2 in ply panels.Much of the furnishing were to be off the shelf stuff, furniture , mattresses, plumbing etc.  Phis. suggested such things as a floor sander as many flat panels are used. I t was fascinating to see the ides flow from both of them. I was sorry to have been unable to complete it. if for no other reason than to see the continuing innovations from them!
            >
            > ed
            >

            I have also spent a lot of time building #630 in my head. I would be
            very much inclined to use the MDO plywood which is presheathed with
            resin & fiber. (The commercial sign builders use the stuff and it
            handles being exposed to weather pretty good.) That could save 500
            hours of sanding and 1,000 sanding belts. Alternately, it might make
            sense to enlist the help of a commercial floor sanding company, as
            those guys really know how to sand big flat areas quickly. The one I
            do business with uses a really powerful 220V floor sander.

          • David
            It s true, AFIK, that MDO is not available in 1/4 thickness. It is true, however, that it s available in 5/16 . For most boatbuilding applications, that s a
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 20 11:08 AM
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              It's true, AFIK, that MDO is not available in 1/4" thickness. It is true, however, that it's available in 5/16". For most boatbuilding applications, that's a perfectly reasonable substitute. I'd normally get the Signal from OlyPanel, but for 5/16" I get the Crezon:

              http://olypanel.com/signMaking/

              Cheers,
              David G
              Harbor Woodworks

              ************************

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
              >
              > MDO (at least Olympic brand) is very good stuff. Unfortunately, it is not
              > available in ¼" thickness or I would use it for all my boatbuilding. I built
              > a boat out 0f 3/8's and the only imperfections I found were an occasional
              > pin knot in one of the plys.
              >
              >
              >
              > I am of the opinion that MDO is good because highway departments set high
              > specifications and buy large quantities to use for signs. Boat builders
              > represent a much smaller market and we just don't have the economic clout to
              > compel plywood manufacturers to build their products to our specs.
              >
              >
              >
              > JohnT
              >
              >
              >
              > _____
              >
              > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              > Bruce Hallman
              > Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:44 AM
              > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [bolger] 630
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:35 AM, <shortdottedline@...
              > <mailto:shortdottedline%40comcast.net> > wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > While corresponding with Phil re the designing of 630, he suggested I
              > build a model. I did so out of poster board, It actually turned out very
              > well and is a stunningly good replica of the idea of the 20's cruiser. I
              > wish I had saved the photos. I believe with careful selections of materials
              > and a lot of sweat equity and use of a lot lay help this project would be
              > surprisingly inexpensive for a boat of its size. One must remember that it
              > is a long puppy, but quite narrow, so the materials are rather more modest.
              > ( the beam being narrow makes it efficient and relatively fast for its
              > length) So much of its construction is very straight forward with few
              > compound angles and curves, so could be done rapidly but would need a couple
              > of handy helpers with muscle to handle the 300 of so 1/2 in ply panels.Much
              > of the furnishing were to be off the shelf stuff, furniture , mattresses,
              > plumbing etc. Phis. suggested such things as a floor sander as many flat
              > panels are used. I t was fascinating to see the ides flow from both of them.
              > I was sorry to have been unable to complete it. if for no other reason than
              > to see the continuing innovations from them!
              > >
              > > ed
              > >
              >
              > I have also spent a lot of time building #630 in my head. I would be
              > very much inclined to use the MDO plywood which is presheathed with
              > resin & fiber. (The commercial sign builders use the stuff and it
              > handles being exposed to weather pretty good.) That could save 500
              > hours of sanding and 1,000 sanding belts. Alternately, it might make
              > sense to enlist the help of a commercial floor sanding company, as
              > those guys really know how to sand big flat areas quickly. The one I
              > do business with uses a really powerful 220V floor sander.
              >
            • Bruce Hallman
              ... I agree with the wisdom of tests when working at this scale. I have seen MDO in action when exposed to some really tough weathering. It is specified
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 20 11:09 AM
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                > On her scale we'd likely want to have seen a serious experiment on laminations of MDO

                I agree with the wisdom of tests when working at this scale. I have
                seen MDO in action when exposed to some really tough weathering. It
                is specified sometimes by the DOT for long term use as highway signage
                and it holds up real well.

                Conventional boat sheathing is fiberglass and epoxy resin. MDO is
                some kind of proprietary fiber and some kind of proprietary resin. It
                still is fiber and resin, which echo's the fiber resin seen in
                conventional boat sheathing.

                Having just done some large scale flat panel building with Topaz, the
                thing that I found surprising was that much of my effort creating a
                flat and 'glossy paint' ready surface while on the flat, was lost when
                I had to do the connections of the "side-bottom" and especially the
                "side-topsides" joints. There was enough drip down (and grind off)
                from the chine edge epoxy work that (according to my lack of ability
                to achieve good fabric penetration, low viscosity, working against
                wanting to control the drips, high viscosity---I opted to go for good
                fabric penetration)

                I found that I would have been time ahead if I had just left a coarse
                surface while on the flat and not spent as much time finishing while
                flat. In the end I needed to smear on a filler coat, and do the
                'glossy' finish sanding work on the vertical anyway. Not the end of
                the world, but about 60-80 extra manhours spent.
              • Susanne@comcast.net
                Thanks. - So how does it laminate in say 4 layers of factory-cured resin-plus-epoxy versus the plywood fiber-to-fiber-via-liquid-epoxy ? - Which is stronger ?
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 20 11:14 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks.
                  - So how does it laminate in say 4 layers of factory-cured resin-plus-epoxy versus the plywood fiber-to-fiber-via-liquid-epoxy ? 
                  - Which is stronger ? 
                  - And is the Payson-Joint just a matter of perfect matching of 'valley' versus fiber/resin factory surface ?
                  Susanne Altenburger, PB&F    
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: David
                  Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 2:08 PM
                  Subject: [bolger] Re: 630

                   

                  It's true, AFIK, that MDO is not available in 1/4" thickness. It is true, however, that it's available in 5/16". For most boatbuilding applications, that's a perfectly reasonable substitute. I'd normally get the Signal from OlyPanel, but for 5/16" I get the Crezon:

                  http://olypanel.com/signMaking/

                  Cheers,
                  David G
                  Harbor Woodworks

                  ************************

                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > MDO (at least Olympic brand) is very good stuff. Unfortunately, it is not
                  > available in ¼" thickness or I would use it for all my boatbuilding. I built
                  > a boat out 0f 3/8's and the only imperfections I found were an occasional
                  > pin knot in one of the plys.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I am of the opinion that MDO is good because highway departments set high
                  > specifications and buy large quantities to use for signs. Boat builders
                  > represent a much smaller market and we just don't have the economic clout to
                  > compel plywood manufacturers to build their products to our specs.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > JohnT
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  > Bruce Hallman
                  > Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:44 AM
                  > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [bolger] 630
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:35 AM, <shortdottedline@...
                  > <mailto:shortdottedline%40comcast.net> > wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > While corresponding with Phil re the designing of 630, he suggested I
                  > build a model. I did so out of poster board, It actually turned out very
                  > well and is a stunningly good replica of the idea of the 20's cruiser. I
                  > wish I had saved the photos. I believe with careful selections of materials
                  > and a lot of sweat equity and use of a lot lay help this project would be
                  > surprisingly inexpensive for a boat of its size. One must remember that it
                  > is a long puppy, but quite narrow, so the materials are rather more modest.
                  > ( the beam being narrow makes it efficient and relatively fast for its
                  > length) So much of its construction is very straight forward with few
                  > compound angles and curves, so could be done rapidly but would need a couple
                  > of handy helpers with muscle to handle the 300 of so 1/2 in ply panels.Much
                  > of the furnishing were to be off the shelf stuff, furniture , mattresses,
                  > plumbing etc. Phis. suggested such things as a floor sander as many flat
                  > panels are used. I t was fascinating to see the ides flow from both of them.
                  > I was sorry to have been unable to complete it. if for no other reason than
                  > to see the continuing innovations from them!
                  > >
                  > > ed
                  > >
                  >
                  > I have also spent a lot of time building #630 in my head. I would be
                  > very much inclined to use the MDO plywood which is presheathed with
                  > resin & fiber. (The commercial sign builders use the stuff and it
                  > handles being exposed to weather pretty good.) That could save 500
                  > hours of sanding and 1,000 sanding belts. Alternately, it might make
                  > sense to enlist the help of a commercial floor sanding company, as
                  > those guys really know how to sand big flat areas quickly. The one I
                  > do business with uses a really powerful 220V floor sander.
                  >

                • John and Kathy Trussell
                  I used MDO with Payson fg butt strap and ‘stitch and glue—West and fg tape. It’s been four years and so far everything is holding together, I have lost
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 20 1:15 PM
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                    I used MDO with Payson fg butt strap and ‘stitch and glue—West and fg tape.  It’s been four years and so far everything is holding together,

                     

                    I have lost my taste for filling and sanding epoxy and henceforth will build using glued plywood lapstrake and Meranti or sapele (either of which is more rot resistant than okoume).  I readily admit that this is a matter of personal whim and that my decision may be misguided… But then I’m old and crotchety!

                     

                    JohnT

                     


                    From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Susanne@...
                    Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 2:14 PM
                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: 630

                     

                     

                    Thanks.
                    - So how does it laminate in say 4 layers of factory-cured resin-plus-epoxy versus the plywood fiber-to-fiber-via-liquid-epoxy ? 
                    - Which is stronger ? 
                    - And is the Payson-Joint just a matter of perfect matching of 'valley' versus fiber/resin factory surface ?
                    Susanne Altenburger, PB&F    

                    ----- Original Message -----

                    From: David

                    Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 2:08 PM

                    Subject: [bolger] Re: 630

                     

                     

                    It's true, AFIK, that MDO is not available in 1/4" thickness. It is true, however, that it's available in 5/16". For most boatbuilding applications, that's a perfectly reasonable substitute. I'd normally get the Signal from OlyPanel, but for 5/16" I get the Crezon:

                    http://olypanel.com/signMaking/

                    Cheers,
                    David G
                    Harbor Woodworks

                    ************************

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > MDO (at least Olympic brand) is very good stuff. Unfortunately, it is not
                    > available in ¼" thickness or I would use it for all my boatbuilding. I built
                    > a boat out 0f 3/8's and the only imperfections I found were an occasional
                    > pin knot in one of the plys.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I am of the opinion that MDO is good because highway departments set high
                    > specifications and buy large quantities to use for signs. Boat builders
                    > represent a much smaller market and we just don't have the economic clout to
                    > compel plywood manufacturers to build their products to our specs.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > JohnT
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    > Bruce Hallman
                    > Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:44 AM
                    > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [bolger] 630
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:35 AM, <shortdottedline@...
                    > <mailto:shortdottedline%40comcast.net> > wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > While corresponding with Phil re the designing of 630, he suggested I
                    > build a model. I did so out of poster board, It actually turned out very
                    > well and is a stunningly good replica of the idea of the 20's cruiser. I
                    > wish I had saved the photos. I believe with careful selections of materials
                    > and a lot of sweat equity and use of a lot lay help this project would be
                    > surprisingly inexpensive for a boat of its size. One must remember that it
                    > is a long puppy, but quite narrow, so the materials are rather more modest.
                    > ( the beam being narrow makes it efficient and relatively fast for its
                    > length) So much of its construction is very straight forward with few
                    > compound angles and curves, so could be done rapidly but would need a couple
                    > of handy helpers with muscle to handle the 300 of so 1/2 in ply panels.Much
                    > of the furnishing were to be off the shelf stuff, furniture , mattresses,
                    > plumbing etc. Phis. suggested such things as a floor sander as many flat
                    > panels are used. I t was fascinating to see the ides flow from both of them.
                    > I was sorry to have been unable to complete it. if for no other reason than
                    > to see the continuing innovations from them!
                    > >
                    > > ed
                    > >
                    >
                    > I have also spent a lot of time building #630 in my head. I would be
                    > very much inclined to use the MDO plywood which is presheathed with
                    > resin & fiber. (The commercial sign builders use the stuff and it
                    > handles being exposed to weather pretty good.) That could save 500
                    > hours of sanding and 1,000 sanding belts. Alternately, it might make
                    > sense to enlist the help of a commercial floor sanding company, as
                    > those guys really know how to sand big flat areas quickly. The one I
                    > do business with uses a really powerful 220V floor sander.
                    >

                  • Susanne@comcast.net
                    Does not sound old or crotchety to me - rather based on serious personal experience. Thanks for the contribution to my understanding. Susanne Altenburger,
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 20 1:52 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Does not sound old or crotchety to me - rather based on serious personal experience.   Thanks for the contribution to my understanding.

                      Susanne Altenburger, PB&F
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 4:15 PM
                      Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: 630

                       

                      I used MDO with Payson fg butt strap and ‘stitch and glue—West and fg tape.  It’s been four years and so far everything is holding together,

                      I have lost my taste for filling and sanding epoxy and henceforth will build using glued plywood lapstrake and Meranti or sapele (either of which is more rot resistant than okoume).  I readily admit that this is a matter of personal whim and that my decision may be misguided… But then I’m old and crotchety!

                      JohnT


                      From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Susanne@...
                      Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 2:14 PM
                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: 630

                       

                      Thanks.
                      - So how does it laminate in say 4 layers of factory-cured resin-plus-epoxy versus the plywood fiber-to-fiber-via-liquid-epoxy ? 
                      - Which is stronger ? 
                      - And is the Payson-Joint just a matter of perfect matching of 'valley' versus fiber/resin factory surface ?
                      Susanne Altenburger, PB&F    

                      ----- Original Message -----

                      From: David

                      Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 2:08 PM

                      Subject: [bolger] Re: 630

                       

                      It's true, AFIK, that MDO is not available in 1/4" thickness. It is true, however, that it's available in 5/16". For most boatbuilding applications, that's a perfectly reasonable substitute. I'd normally get the Signal from OlyPanel, but for 5/16" I get the Crezon:

                      http://olypanel.com/signMaking/

                      Cheers,
                      David G
                      Harbor Woodworks

                      ************************

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > MDO (at least Olympic brand) is very good stuff. Unfortunately, it is not
                      > available in ¼" thickness or I would use it for all my boatbuilding. I built
                      > a boat out 0f 3/8's and the only imperfections I found were an occasional
                      > pin knot in one of the plys.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I am of the opinion that MDO is good because highway departments set high
                      > specifications and buy large quantities to use for signs. Boat builders
                      > represent a much smaller market and we just don't have the economic clout to
                      > compel plywood manufacturers to build their products to our specs.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > JohnT
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > _____
                      >
                      > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      > Bruce Hallman
                      > Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 11:44 AM
                      > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [bolger] 630
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 5:35 AM, <shortdottedline@...
                      > <mailto:shortdottedline%40comcast.net> > wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > While corresponding with Phil re the designing of 630, he suggested I
                      > build a model. I did so out of poster board, It actually turned out very
                      > well and is a stunningly good replica of the idea of the 20's cruiser. I
                      > wish I had saved the photos. I believe with careful selections of materials
                      > and a lot of sweat equity and use of a lot lay help this project would be
                      > surprisingly inexpensive for a boat of its size. One must remember that it
                      > is a long puppy, but quite narrow, so the materials are rather more modest.
                      > ( the beam being narrow makes it efficient and relatively fast for its
                      > length) So much of its construction is very straight forward with few
                      > compound angles and curves, so could be done rapidly but would need a couple
                      > of handy helpers with muscle to handle the 300 of so 1/2 in ply panels.Much
                      > of the furnishing were to be off the shelf stuff, furniture , mattresses,
                      > plumbing etc. Phis. suggested such things as a floor sander as many flat
                      > panels are used. I t was fascinating to see the ides flow from both of them.
                      > I was sorry to have been unable to complete it. if for no other reason than
                      > to see the continuing innovations from them!
                      > >
                      > > ed
                      > >
                      >
                      > I have also spent a lot of time building #630 in my head. I would be
                      > very much inclined to use the MDO plywood which is presheathed with
                      > resin & fiber. (The commercial sign builders use the stuff and it
                      > handles being exposed to weather pretty good.) That could save 500
                      > hours of sanding and 1,000 sanding belts. Alternately, it might make
                      > sense to enlist the help of a commercial floor sanding company, as
                      > those guys really know how to sand big flat areas quickly. The one I
                      > do business with uses a really powerful 220V floor sander.
                      >

                    • daschultz2000
                      From my reading of the MAIB 630 article, the bottom and shoe would all be plywood, but Bruce Hallman has suggested the shoe might work in dimensional lumber.
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 21 4:14 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        From my reading of the MAIB 630 article, the bottom and "shoe" would all be plywood, but Bruce Hallman has suggested the shoe might work in dimensional lumber. The more I thought about it, the more likely such an approach would be less expensive and perhaps more rot resistant, depending on the wood selected.

                        Don
                      • John Kohnen
                        So you ve actually seen Oly Panel 5/16 MDO, David? I know they list it, but I ve heard that their distributors don t stock it... Also, where do you get small
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 23 6:09 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          So you've actually seen Oly Panel 5/16" MDO, David? I know they list it,
                          but I've heard that their distributors don't stock it... Also, where do
                          you get small quantities of Signal MDO? I was talking to Louie this
                          weekend about the trouble he had finding MDO not too many hundreds of
                          miles from his place in Dirtland. Lumber Products in Eugene will only sell
                          him a truckload, and they won't handle anything better than Crezon.
                          Frustrated, he's decided to use Okuome for his new motorboat. <shrug>
                          He'll end up spending a bunch for extra epoxy and glass. <sigh>

                          Where were _you_ this weekend? I ended up becoming the NW Puddle Duck
                          champion by default because Greyhound was the only PDR that showed up at
                          the Toledo Wooden Boat Show. And I just drifted around aimlessly in Depot
                          Slough, due to a slight problem with my boat that you'll hear about soon
                          enough... <ahem>

                          On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:08:04 -0700, David G wrote:

                          > It's true, AFIK, that MDO is not available in 1/4" thickness. It is
                          > true, however, that it's available in 5/16". For most boatbuilding
                          > applications, that's a perfectly reasonable substitute. I'd normally get
                          > the Signal from OlyPanel, but for 5/16" I get the Crezon:
                          >
                          > http://olypanel.com/signMaking/

                          --
                          John (jkohnen@...)
                          To delight in war is a merit in the soldier, a dangerous quality
                          in the captain, and a positive crime in the statesman. (George
                          Santayana)
                        • David
                          John, IIRC, the 5/16 I used was a special order thru Emerson/Crosscut. I was in the shop all weekend. A deadline got moved up a week for the balance of that
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 23 7:31 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            John,

                            IIRC, the 5/16" I used was a special order thru Emerson/Crosscut.

                            I was in the shop all weekend. A deadline got moved up a week for the balance of that Welsford 'Janette' kit that I built... so I was in scramble mode. I'll be driving the mast, spars, skeg, and a few odds & ends up to my Bainbridge Island client tomorrow or Wednesday. I'm very sorry to have missed the boat show. Toledo is always one of my faves! I imagine it was the usual great time.

                            You as the NW Champeen??? Will wonders never cease? <G> Good thing I wasn't there, I'd have probably managed to ram you, and capsize the both of us... and the title would have stood vacant LOL

                            Cheers,
                            David G

                            ******************

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > So you've actually seen Oly Panel 5/16" MDO, David? I know they list it,
                            > but I've heard that their distributors don't stock it... Also, where do
                            > you get small quantities of Signal MDO? I was talking to Louie this
                            > weekend about the trouble he had finding MDO not too many hundreds of
                            > miles from his place in Dirtland. Lumber Products in Eugene will only sell
                            > him a truckload, and they won't handle anything better than Crezon.
                            > Frustrated, he's decided to use Okuome for his new motorboat. <shrug>
                            > He'll end up spending a bunch for extra epoxy and glass. <sigh>
                            >
                            > Where were _you_ this weekend? I ended up becoming the NW Puddle Duck
                            > champion by default because Greyhound was the only PDR that showed up at
                            > the Toledo Wooden Boat Show. And I just drifted around aimlessly in Depot
                            > Slough, due to a slight problem with my boat that you'll hear about soon
                            > enough... <ahem>
                            >
                            > On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:08:04 -0700, David G wrote:
                            >
                            > > It's true, AFIK, that MDO is not available in 1/4" thickness. It is
                            > > true, however, that it's available in 5/16". For most boatbuilding
                            > > applications, that's a perfectly reasonable substitute. I'd normally get
                            > > the Signal from OlyPanel, but for 5/16" I get the Crezon:
                            > >
                            > > http://olypanel.com/signMaking/
                            >
                            > --
                            > John (jkohnen@...)
                            > To delight in war is a merit in the soldier, a dangerous quality
                            > in the captain, and a positive crime in the statesman. (George
                            > Santayana)
                            >
                          • Fred Schumacher
                            On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 6:14 PM, daschultz2000 ... That s a good idea. Pressure treated lumber could be used. If the epoxy coating is abraded, it wouldn t
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 24 2:42 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 6:14 PM, daschultz2000 <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
                               

                              From my reading of the MAIB 630 article, the bottom and "shoe" would all be plywood, but Bruce Hallman has suggested the shoe might work in dimensional lumber. The more I thought about it, the more likely such an approach would be less expensive and perhaps more rot resistant, depending on the wood selected.


                              That's a good idea. Pressure treated lumber could be used. If the epoxy coating is abraded, it wouldn't matter. In fact, it wouldn't even need coating.

                              fred s.
                            • Bruce Hallman
                              ... Wow. 5/16 MDO would be the perfect plywood to use for building quick and good Instant Boats!
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 24 8:24 AM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                > the 5/16" I used

                                Wow. 5/16" MDO would be the perfect plywood to use for building quick
                                and good Instant Boats!
                              • Eric
                                Do remember that PT is the worst of new growth lumber. It is wet from the PT treatment, very susceptible to warping and dimensional changes. If used, dry it
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 24 1:06 PM
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Do remember that PT is the worst of new growth lumber. It is wet from the PT treatment, very susceptible to warping and dimensional changes. If used, dry it out thoroughly before attempting to glue it. I've had plenty of experience with it not holding paint. I don't see any reason epoxy will stick any better for gluing or fiberglassing. I would experiment drying pt and then gluing and coating and waiting a year or two to see how it behaves before I risked a boat to it.
                                  Eric

                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Fred Schumacher <fredschum@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 6:14 PM, daschultz2000
                                  > <daschultz8275@...>wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > From my reading of the MAIB 630 article, the bottom and "shoe" would all be
                                  > > plywood, but Bruce Hallman has suggested the shoe might work in dimensional
                                  > > lumber. The more I thought about it, the more likely such an approach would
                                  > > be less expensive and perhaps more rot resistant, depending on the wood
                                  > > selected.
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > That's a good idea. Pressure treated lumber could be used. If the epoxy
                                  > coating is abraded, it wouldn't matter. In fact, it wouldn't even need
                                  > coating.
                                  >
                                  > fred s.
                                  >
                                • Christopher C. Wetherill
                                  In support of this statement, it is worth noting that many contractors advise allowing new decks to weather for several months before painting. V/R Chris
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 24 1:33 PM
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    In support of this statement, it is worth noting that many contractors
                                    advise allowing new decks to weather for several months before painting.

                                    V/R
                                    Chris

                                    On 8/24/2010 4:06 PM, Eric wrote:
                                    > Do remember that PT is the worst of new growth lumber. It is wet from the PT treatment, very susceptible to warping and dimensional changes. If used, dry it out thoroughly before attempting to glue it. I've had plenty of experience with it not holding paint. I don't see any reason epoxy will stick any better for gluing or fiberglassing. I would experiment drying pt and then gluing and coating and waiting a year or two to see how it behaves before I risked a boat to it.
                                    > Eric
                                    >
                                  • prairiedog2332
                                    Checks and splits like crazy from my experience in building a cradle using 4 and 6 X s and treated fir plywood. This after bathing it in cuprinol. Nels ...
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 24 2:12 PM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Checks and splits like crazy from my experience in building a cradle
                                      using 4 and 6 X's and treated fir plywood. This after bathing it in
                                      cuprinol.

                                      Nels

                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Eric" <eric14850@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Do remember that PT is the worst of new growth lumber. It is wet from
                                      the PT treatment, very susceptible to warping and dimensional changes.
                                      If used, dry it out thoroughly before attempting to glue it. I've had
                                      plenty of experience with it not holding paint. I don't see any reason
                                      epoxy will stick any better for gluing or fiberglassing. I would
                                      experiment drying pt and then gluing and coating and waiting a year or
                                      two to see how it behaves before I risked a boat to it.
                                      > Eric
                                      >
                                      > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Fred Schumacher fredschum@ wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 6:14 PM, daschultz2000
                                      > > daschultz8275@wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > From my reading of the MAIB 630 article, the bottom and "shoe"
                                      would all be
                                      > > > plywood, but Bruce Hallman has suggested the shoe might work in
                                      dimensional
                                      > > > lumber. The more I thought about it, the more likely such an
                                      approach would
                                      > > > be less expensive and perhaps more rot resistant, depending on the
                                      wood
                                      > > > selected.
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > > That's a good idea. Pressure treated lumber could be used. If the
                                      epoxy
                                      > > coating is abraded, it wouldn't matter. In fact, it wouldn't even
                                      need
                                      > > coating.
                                      > >
                                      > > fred s.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Fred Schumacher
                                      ... Much of the pressure treated lumber we have in Northern Minnesota is Red Pine (Pinus resinosa and also known as Norway Pine) which takes pressure treatment
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 24 2:44 PM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 4:12 PM, prairiedog2332 <arvent@...> wrote:
                                         

                                        Checks and splits like crazy from my experience in building a cradle
                                        using 4 and 6 X's and treated fir plywood.

                                        Much of the pressure treated lumber we have in Northern Minnesota is Red Pine (Pinus resinosa and also known as Norway Pine) which takes pressure treatment without needing any pretreatment and seems pretty stable. Red Pine has some marvelous mechanical characteristics, close to Douglas Fir. Wet Red Pine can take tremendous abuse without breaking. I remember reading some years ago of a Russian company building sailboats out of pressure treated Baltic Pine, a tree closely related to Red Pine. Some PT boards are heavy and some weigh barely more than untreated. If the boat stays in the water, a shoe made of PT shouldn't check.

                                        fred s.

                                      • sirdarnell
                                        You put a baby in a cradle made of treated lumber? (Just kidding)
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Aug 25 1:11 PM
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                                          You put a baby in a cradle made of treated lumber? (Just kidding)

                                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Checks and splits like crazy from my experience in building a cradle
                                          > using 4 and 6 X's and treated fir plywood. This after bathing it in
                                          > cuprinol.
                                          >
                                          > Nels
                                        • shortdottedline@comcast.net
                                          not sure using dumentional lumber for the shoe for the 630 would work, The 1/2 in ply will conform to the rocker of the bottom, while lumber be it 2 X 4s etc
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Aug 26 9:30 PM
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                                            not sure using dumentional lumber for the shoe for the 630 would work, The 1/2 in ply will conform to the rocker of the bottom, while lumber be it 2 X 4s etc would conform and be difficult to make it solid. The idea of using treated stuff makes sense,, ed (I am the one Phill designed 630 for)
                                          • Bruce Hallman
                                            ... Fair concern. According to my math, the total rocker in the Illinois bottom is about 12 inches spread over the 51 foot long length. That is relatively
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Aug 27 8:38 AM
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 9:30 PM, <shortdottedline@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > not sure using dumentional lumber for the shoe for the 630 would work, The 1/2 in ply will conform to the rocker of the bottom, while lumber be it 2 X 4s etc would conform and be difficult to make it solid. The idea of using treated stuff makes sense,, ed (I am the one Phill designed 630 for)


                                              Fair concern. According to my math, the total rocker in the
                                              'Illinois' bottom is about 12 inches spread over the 51 foot long
                                              length. That is relatively flat.

                                              I am pretty sure that if you picked up a 50 foot long piece of
                                              "two-by" lumber by its middle, that it would sag under its own weight
                                              by much more than the 12" of needed bend.

                                              The shoe of the design 630 'Illinois' is 3 inch thick. I had imagined
                                              that you could laminate two courses of standard "two-by" lumber which
                                              is 1 1/2" thick, staggering the joints. You could also scarf the
                                              joints, but that would not add much strength worth the extra trouble
                                              in my opinion.
                                            • Rick Bedard
                                              I think if the 3 thick shoe was laminated from six courses of 1/2 ply it would hold it s shape and add to the hull stiffness. I don t think two courses of 2x
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Aug 27 8:32 PM
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                I think if the 3" thick shoe was laminated from six courses of 1/2" ply it would hold it's shape and add to the hull stiffness. I don't think two courses of 2x material would.. Also the shrinking of green lumber or the swelling on dry would cause havoc with two courses at 1.5" each sharing a single glueline.

                                                BUT... I've never tried it, so what do I know.....

                                                Rick


                                                From: Bruce Hallman <hallman@...>
                                                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Fri, August 27, 2010 8:38:10 AM
                                                Subject: Re: [bolger] 630

                                                On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 9:30 PM, <shortdottedline@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > not sure using dumentional lumber for the shoe for the 630 would work, The 1/2 in ply will conform to the rocker of the bottom, while lumber be it 2 X 4s etc would conform and be difficult to make it solid. The idea of using treated stuff makes sense,, ed (I am the one Phill designed 630 for)


                                                Fair concern.  According to my math, the total rocker in the
                                                'Illinois' bottom is about 12 inches spread over the 51 foot long
                                                length.  That is relatively flat.

                                                I am pretty sure that if you picked up a 50 foot long piece of
                                                "two-by" lumber by its middle, that it would sag under its own weight
                                                by much more than the 12" of needed bend.

                                                The shoe of the design 630 'Illinois' is 3 inch thick.  I had imagined
                                                that you could laminate two courses of standard "two-by" lumber which
                                                is 1 1/2" thick, staggering the joints.  You could also scarf the
                                                joints, but that would not add much strength worth the extra trouble
                                                in my opinion.


                                                ------------------------------------

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                                              • Bruce Hallman
                                                I need to admit that using dimensional lumber instead of plywood isn t my original idea. I am influenced by the building techniques of George Buehler.
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Aug 28 9:04 AM
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                                                  I need to admit that using dimensional lumber instead of plywood isn't
                                                  my original idea. I am influenced by the building techniques of
                                                  George Buehler.

                                                  http://books.google.com/books?id=I_xMJ5QY23oC

                                                  I think that he might go even further and suggest that the dimensional
                                                  lumber be glued together with asphalt based roofing cement instead of
                                                  epoxy.

                                                  On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 8:32 PM, Rick Bedard <sctree@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > I think if the 3" thick shoe was laminated from six courses of 1/2" ply it would hold it's shape and add to the hull stiffness. I don't think two courses of 2x material would.. Also the shrinking of green lumber or the swelling on dry would cause havoc with two courses at 1.5" each sharing a single glueline.
                                                  > BUT... I've never tried it, so what do I know.....
                                                  > Rick
                                                • shortdottedline@comcast.net
                                                  According to my plans for the 630, the shoe is 4 in thick,  A stack of 8- 1/2 ply, staggered so the glue lines are not on top of each other, the width of
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Aug 28 4:04 PM
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    According to my plans for the 630, the shoe is 4 in thick,  A stack of 8- 1/2 ply, staggered so the glue lines are not on top of each other, the width of 630 is 10 ft length 63 ft. . Phil specifies 1/2 in ply. (readily available and relatively inexpensive I think is prob the cheapest of the ply-woods, and it is certainly all over) I suspect one could use inexpensive 1/2 pl for the shoe, but encapsulate it well to keep down rot. I have often wondered if one could use 10 ft wide 1/2 in ply. sure would be a time saver, but maybe it would be prohibitively expensive? I haven't checked as to availability. It would take aprox  16 sheets for the bottom, the rest could be standard 4X8 1/2 in ply ews
                                                  • Eric
                                                    I thoroughly agree about the stiffness argument. If stiffness is wanted, laminate from plywood. I will second Bruce Hallman s reference to Buhler. If using
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Aug 28 4:12 PM
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      I thoroughly agree about the stiffness argument. If stiffness is wanted, laminate from plywood.

                                                      I will second Bruce Hallman's reference to Buhler.
                                                      If using dimensional lumber use water resistant glue, plain old bedding compound or asphalt tar. Asphalt tar is cheap and will act like glue once it sets up. I have experience using epoxy on dimensional lumber and have seen 3/8" * 4" 8* 26' walnut (relatively stable with moisture changes) shake off its 4" wide glue line because of moisture cycling. I've seen epoxy used on big keel pieces by professionals who also bolted everything together as if the epoxy were bedding compound. I think they were asking for trouble and should have just used bedding compound or asphalt tar. Epoxy is great stuff for cold molding and fiberglassing. It is not great stuff for gluing dimensional lumber. It is an inappropriate use.

                                                      By the way, epoxy is water proof, but not moisture proof. Moisture will penetrate and it will condense in voids in plywood if it can penetrate the plywood and if the plywood has voids and if the temperature of the plywood is below the dew point. It will not exit as easily as it enters. Anyone had any experience with this? I am unclear about how well moisture will penetrate plywood.
                                                      Eric


                                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Rick Bedard <sctree@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > I think if the 3" thick shoe was laminated from six courses of 1/2" ply it would
                                                      > hold it's shape and add to the hull stiffness. I don't think two courses of 2x
                                                      > material would.. Also the shrinking of green lumber or the swelling on dry would
                                                      > cause havoc with two courses at 1.5" each sharing a single glueline.
                                                      >
                                                      > BUT... I've never tried it, so what do I know.....
                                                      >
                                                      > Rick
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > ________________________________
                                                      > From: Bruce Hallman <hallman@...>
                                                      > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Sent: Fri, August 27, 2010 8:38:10 AM
                                                      > Subject: Re: [bolger] 630
                                                      >
                                                      > On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 9:30 PM, <shortdottedline@...> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > not sure using dumentional lumber for the shoe for the 630 would work, The 1/2
                                                      > >in ply will conform to the rocker of the bottom, while lumber be it 2 X 4s etc
                                                      > >would conform and be difficult to make it solid. The idea of using treated stuff
                                                      > >makes sense,, ed (I am the one Phill designed 630 for)
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Fair concern. According to my math, the total rocker in the
                                                      > 'Illinois' bottom is about 12 inches spread over the 51 foot long
                                                      > length. That is relatively flat.
                                                      >
                                                      > I am pretty sure that if you picked up a 50 foot long piece of
                                                      > "two-by" lumber by its middle, that it would sag under its own weight
                                                      > by much more than the 12" of needed bend.
                                                      >
                                                      > The shoe of the design 630 'Illinois' is 3 inch thick. I had imagined
                                                      > that you could laminate two courses of standard "two-by" lumber which
                                                      > is 1 1/2" thick, staggering the joints. You could also scarf the
                                                      > joints, but that would not add much strength worth the extra trouble
                                                      > in my opinion.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > ------------------------------------
                                                      >
                                                      > Bolger rules!!!
                                                      > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                                                      > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                                                      > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                                      > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                                      > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978)
                                                      > 282-1349
                                                      > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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