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Re: Pico - Design # 386 (30-Odd Boats Chapter 32, pg 215 ) - Plans?

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  • Peter
    Of all the boats you mention, Dovkie would be one of the easiest to get hold of. The design has been out of production for quite a while, but quite a few were
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 8, 2010
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      Of all the boats you mention, Dovkie would be one of the easiest to get hold of. The design has been out of production for quite a while, but quite a few were built, so it shouldn't be too hard to find one on the market. On the other hand, from my couple of boat show-type inspections, she really doesn't have much of an interior due to some built-in bins.

      IMHO, any boat over about 500lbs is not really a rowing boat for one man. Oars would be limited to getting away from a dock, and a few hundred yards now and then in a flat calm to get past some obstruction.

      I'm more of a sailor and not much of a rower, so my thinking tends to the real sailboats. In the size you are talking about that includes Chebacco and Long Micro. LM has an interior you could really get organized in.

      Peter
    • Mark Albanese
      Bruce, Don t have 30OB on hand, but I remember the beautiful Pico well. That s not much of a cruiser many would say, but you ve got the camper bug in your
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 8, 2010
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        Bruce,
         
        Don't have 30OB on hand, but I remember the beautiful Pico well. That's not much of a cruiser many would say, but you've got the camper bug in your bones.

        Familiar with Dugong? 26' strip planked canoe. Able  Not bad to trailer. A little cabin to curl up in out of the notorious rainy NW weather. Good looking.

        Pictures or study plans are hard to find. There are some in this book, I believe.


        Somebody help us out here, please. Which PCB book? 
        Mark
      • Peter
        ... It would be good to look into the Ida Little saga, providing you can get the straight story from all sides. I have not read her book, so I don t know if
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 9, 2010
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          > Familiar with Dugong? 26' strip planked canoe. Able Not bad to
          > trailer. A little cabin to curl up in out of the notorious rainy NW
          > weather. Good looking.

          It would be good to look into the Ida Little saga, providing you can get the straight story from all sides. I have not read her book, so I don't know if she goes into detail there.

          There were all sorts of issues. The boat was very expensive to build, at least in hours, but PCB thought a good builder would have been a lot quicker. IIRC, he cited many hours for putting on the name as an example. Something like that.

          And there were disagreements about the rig. Was it big enough? Did the sail well? Did the crew give the sprit rig a fair chance? Reading between the lines, it seemed to me that where was some conflict about what kind of boat it was meant to be.

          In the end, the boat covered a lot of ground, and should probably be counted a success, but owner/crew was not as happy with it as they might have been.
        • motorpickleman
          Mark and Peter, Thanks for pointing out both the book, and providing some ideas of their experience with Dugong. Sounds like it would be worth the read, even
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 9, 2010
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            Mark and Peter,

            Thanks for pointing out both the book, and providing some ideas of their experience with Dugong. Sounds like it would be worth the read, even for Pico. She probably shares many charasteristics.

            Peter I like your outlook on their experience as well. They put alot of miles on her, so it could not have been all bad. It did remind me of a comment by PCB in his write up of Moccasin: "Moccasin's owner enthusiastically reports her a paragon of all the virtues. The designer remarks that careful selection of owners is a major factor in successful boat design."

            Cheers,

            Bruce

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > > Familiar with Dugong? 26' strip planked canoe. Able Not bad to
            > > trailer. A little cabin to curl up in out of the notorious rainy NW
            > > weather. Good looking.
            >
            > It would be good to look into the Ida Little saga, providing you can get the straight story from all sides. I have not read her book, so I don't know if she goes into detail there.
            >
            > There were all sorts of issues. The boat was very expensive to build, at least in hours, but PCB thought a good builder would have been a lot quicker. IIRC, he cited many hours for putting on the name as an example. Something like that.
            >
            > And there were disagreements about the rig. Was it big enough? Did the sail well? Did the crew give the sprit rig a fair chance? Reading between the lines, it seemed to me that where was some conflict about what kind of boat it was meant to be.
            >
            > In the end, the boat covered a lot of ground, and should probably be counted a success, but owner/crew was not as happy with it as they might have been.
            >
          • Mark Albanese
            Bruce, He didn t pipe up himself on this but in case you haven t seen anything on it at all here s Bruce Hallman s fine rendition of Dugong.
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 9, 2010
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              Bruce,

              He didn't pipe up himself on this but in case you haven't seen
              anything on it at all here's Bruce Hallman's fine rendition of Dugong.
              http://hallman.org/bolger/dugong/Dugong.png

              And the FreeShip model.
              http://hallman.org/bolger/dugong/Dugong.fbm

              BTW I've sat on my Anhinga plans for 25 years, and value the concept
              highly, but both Pico and Dugong are far abler craft.

              There are many bits and pieces on Dugong in the group's message
              archive and on the wider web.
              Mark

              On Aug 9, 2010, at 1:18 PM, motorpickleman wrote:

              > Mark and Peter,
              >
              > Thanks for pointing out both the book, and providing some ideas of
              > their experience with Dugong. Sounds like it would be worth the
              > read, even for Pico. She probably shares many charasteristics.
              >
            • graeme19121984
              ... DB, chapter 8.
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 10, 2010
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                > Somebody help us out here, please. Which PCB book?

                DB, chapter 8.
              • graeme19121984
                ... Similar, though perhaps a little more for sail than oar, is Winfola. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/47490
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 10, 2010
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                  > And then there is Pico, what a beautiful design! I am smitten. She seems to be very well thought out in all the details. She allows sail/oar powered camp cruising with good weather protection. She has real seats, and an awning that can be left us sailing/rowingg. She is seaworthy for an open boat, with a lot of watertight volume. I think PCB summed her up nicely: "I like this boat very much and think she is an extremely sensible concept."


                  Similar, though perhaps a little more for sail than oar, is Winfola.


                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/47490
                • Peter
                  ... The New Zealand designer John Welsford is familiar with Winfola and knew (or knows) the builder. If you got as far as wanting an independent, expert
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 11, 2010
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                    > Similar, though perhaps a little more for sail than oar, is Winfola.
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/47490

                    The New Zealand designer John Welsford is familiar with Winfola and knew (or knows) the builder. If you got as far as wanting an independent, expert opinion, he's the guy to check with. I think it's a very pretty design, but there are other choices in the PB&F design list that are also pretty and give you more for the dollars and effort involved.

                    I suppose if you're interested in Pico, then Wisp is too slight.
                  • Harry James
                    Black Skimmer,you can t call it ugly, Building site for what has to be the most expensive Black Skimmer ever
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 13, 2010
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                      Black Skimmer,you can't call it ugly, Building site for what has to be the most expensive Black Skimmer ever

                      http://www.nexusmarine.com/skimmer_construction.html

                      lancefgunderson wrote:
                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "motorpickleman" <bowilkinson@...> wrote:
                        
                      Greetings from Ouagadougou,
                      
                      I am a sailor and a dreamer, and I have built a number of boats in my mind over the years.  I have also been a constant mover, first in the Marine Corps, and now with our Department of State (currently posted to Ouagadougou, Burkina Faso...) which has made the idea less practical.  I have settled for a folding kayak with a sailing rig, that looks like a couple of duffel bags when the movers arrive :> But as retirement looms closer, it's time to get more serious.
                      
                      I used to dream about a round the world voyage.  I looked a multi-hulls and many of PCB's designs.  A lot of my sailing will be done solo, and the idea of long passages done with snippets of sleep here and there has become less appealing with time (is this what we call wisdom?...)  Realistically, I am much more likely to enjoy a series of coastal cruises, many in the North West where we plan to settle, but having the ability to head to other crusing grounds opens up a world of possibilities.
                      
                      I am also partial to simplicity, and small size.  I always like PCB's leanings in this direction.  And having cruised some larger sailboats and powerboats, I have learned that with large size comes the requirement for systems to provide mechanical advantages, which are usually complicated, expensive, prone to  breakage, and most importantly, can prevent an anxiety free experience.  To much time, thought, and energy is devoted to these systems.  I sail to relax!
                      
                      The idea of sail and oar is very appealing.  Simple, clean, good exercise.  Hardly anything to break or get stollen.  Simplicity and peace of mind.  PCB has desinged a number of boats for sail/oar camp cruising that I am aware of;  Dovekie, Anhinga, Birdwatcher  and II, Camper, Otter I and II all come to mind.  I am sure I am missing some (and please feel free to point these out, or to point me in the direction of a post that may have covered this topic).  
                      
                      I am also a sucker for a beautiful sailboat, and I think PCB purposely designed most of the above designs placing function well above asthetics.  They work very well, they are very practical, and except for Dovekie were intented for an amateur builder without extensive experience in boat building.  Some of these are appealing; I think Camper would be a wonderful boat, and she almost looks like a boat with the extended railings.  Otter I is actually quite good looking, but the sleeping space looks a little confining to me.  Anhinga looks fairly nice, has seats, but I understand the plans are no longer supported.
                      
                      And then there is Pico, what a beautiful design!  I am smitten.  She seems to be very well thought out in all the details.  She allows sail/oar powered camp cruising with good weather protection.  She has real seats, and an awning that can be left us sailing/rowingg.  She is seaworthy for an open boat, with a lot of watertight volume.  I think PCB summed her up nicely: "I like this boat very much and think she is an extremely sensible concept."  
                      
                      Outside of 30-Odd Boats, I have not been able to find any other references to her.  Not in any of the Bolger discussions groups, and web searches have proved fruitless.  I wonder if Mr. Poropat ever built her?
                      
                      I hope plans are still available.  I think she would be great for cruising the North West - especially without any particular schedule, and smalll enough, and adaptable to different climes, to be able to explore many other cruising grounds.  And did I mention she is beautiful?
                      
                      Cheers,
                      
                      Bruce
                      
                          
                      I also like Pico. I too wonder if she was ever built. I suggested to Peter Duff that he build her, but he was partial to the Dovekie design. But based on your description, why not a Black Skimmer? There is one for sale on the West Coast I think ( David Greybeal has been dithering on it). Black Skimmer can be powered by the smallest outboard and poled in shallows; she's slow for her length, but will get you there. She has a lot of sitting headroom below and lots of storage space; she has positive floatation and should float on her raised deck in the event of a knockdown. When double reefed she'll take as much wind as the crew can stand. Why not give her some thought?
                      
                      
                      
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                    • motorpickleman
                      Received the plans for Pico with an unexpected surprise. PCB had drawn in 1988 a modified rig - a single sprit sail. The mast is stepped in a well which is
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 20, 2011
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                        Received the plans for Pico with an unexpected surprise. PCB had drawn in 1988 a modified rig - a single sprit sail. The mast is stepped in a well which is located between frames 3 and 5. It does away with the standing rigging and the jib, at the expense of a little sail area and a taller mast. He used an interesting reefing system. Usually Sprit sails are either reefed vertically parallel to the luff, or more conventionally along the foot. The first results in a bag of sail directly behind the mast and spoils the airflow, the second requires the snotter to be unfastened. In Pico, PCB specified a reef along the foot, but from the tack to a gromet along the leech; no haylard is used, the sail is bent to the mast. One would end up with the boom cocked up at quite an angle, which would be good in rough weather, but it seems that one is limited in the ammount of sail one could reef, and that the center of effort of the sail would go up.

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Black Skimmer,you can't call it ugly, Building site for what has to be
                        > the most expensive Black Skimmer ever
                        >
                        > http://www.nexusmarine.com/skimmer_construction.html
                        >
                        > lancefgunderson wrote:
                        > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "motorpickleman" <bowilkinson@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >> Greetings from Ouagadougou,
                        > >>
                        > >> I am a sailor and a dreamer, and I have built a number of boats in my mind over the years. I have also been a constant mover, first in the Marine Corps, and now with our Department of State (currently posted to Ouagadougou, Burkina Faso...) which has made the idea less practical. I have settled for a folding kayak with a sailing rig, that looks like a couple of duffel bags when the movers arrive :> But as retirement looms closer, it's time to get more serious.
                        > >>
                        > >> I used to dream about a round the world voyage. I looked a multi-hulls and many of PCB's designs. A lot of my sailing will be done solo, and the idea of long passages done with snippets of sleep here and there has become less appealing with time (is this what we call wisdom?...) Realistically, I am much more likely to enjoy a series of coastal cruises, many in the North West where we plan to settle, but having the ability to head to other crusing grounds opens up a world of possibilities.
                        > >>
                        > >> I am also partial to simplicity, and small size. I always like PCB's leanings in this direction. And having cruised some larger sailboats and powerboats, I have learned that with large size comes the requirement for systems to provide mechanical advantages, which are usually complicated, expensive, prone to breakage, and most importantly, can prevent an anxiety free experience. To much time, thought, and energy is devoted to these systems. I sail to relax!
                        > >>
                        > >> The idea of sail and oar is very appealing. Simple, clean, good exercise. Hardly anything to break or get stollen. Simplicity and peace of mind. PCB has desinged a number of boats for sail/oar camp cruising that I am aware of; Dovekie, Anhinga, Birdwatcher and II, Camper, Otter I and II all come to mind. I am sure I am missing some (and please feel free to point these out, or to point me in the direction of a post that may have covered this topic).
                        > >>
                        > >> I am also a sucker for a beautiful sailboat, and I think PCB purposely designed most of the above designs placing function well above asthetics. They work very well, they are very practical, and except for Dovekie were intented for an amateur builder without extensive experience in boat building. Some of these are appealing; I think Camper would be a wonderful boat, and she almost looks like a boat with the extended railings. Otter I is actually quite good looking, but the sleeping space looks a little confining to me. Anhinga looks fairly nice, has seats, but I understand the plans are no longer supported.
                        > >>
                        > >> And then there is Pico, what a beautiful design! I am smitten. She seems to be very well thought out in all the details. She allows sail/oar powered camp cruising with good weather protection. She has real seats, and an awning that can be left us sailing/rowingg. She is seaworthy for an open boat, with a lot of watertight volume. I think PCB summed her up nicely: "I like this boat very much and think she is an extremely sensible concept."
                        > >>
                        > >> Outside of 30-Odd Boats, I have not been able to find any other references to her. Not in any of the Bolger discussions groups, and web searches have proved fruitless. I wonder if Mr. Poropat ever built her?
                        > >>
                        > >> I hope plans are still available. I think she would be great for cruising the North West - especially without any particular schedule, and smalll enough, and adaptable to different climes, to be able to explore many other cruising grounds. And did I mention she is beautiful?
                        > >>
                        > >> Cheers,
                        > >>
                        > >> Bruce
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > > I also like Pico. I too wonder if she was ever built. I suggested to Peter Duff that he build her, but he was partial to the Dovekie design. But based on your description, why not a Black Skimmer? There is one for sale on the West Coast I think ( David Greybeal has been dithering on it). Black Skimmer can be powered by the smallest outboard and poled in shallows; she's slow for her length, but will get you there. She has a lot of sitting headroom below and lots of storage space; she has positive floatation and should float on her raised deck in the event of a knockdown. When double reefed she'll take as much wind as the crew can stand. Why not give her some thought?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > Bolger rules!!!
                        > > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                        > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                        > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                        > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                        > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                        > > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • c.ruzer
                        The original rig sounds/looks better to me. Maybe this later one is quicker to completely strike for best rowing in any breeze? But if there s a breeze... But
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 23, 2011
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                          The original rig sounds/looks better to me. Maybe this later one is quicker to completely strike for best rowing in any breeze? But if there's a breeze... But if there's a sliding seat... But... it's a very nice design whatever, enjoy!

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "motorpickleman" <bowilkinson@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Received the plans for Pico with an unexpected surprise. PCB had drawn in 1988 a modified rig - a single sprit sail. The mast is stepped in a well which is located between frames 3 and 5. It does away with the standing rigging and the jib, at the expense of a little sail area and a taller mast. He used an interesting reefing system. Usually Sprit sails are either reefed vertically parallel to the luff, or more conventionally along the foot. The first results in a bag of sail directly behind the mast and spoils the airflow, the second requires the snotter to be unfastened. In Pico, PCB specified a reef along the foot, but from the tack to a gromet along the leech; no haylard is used, the sail is bent to the mast. One would end up with the boom cocked up at quite an angle, which would be good in rough weather, but it seems that one is limited in the ammount of sail one could reef, and that the center of effort of the sail would go up.
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