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Re: BWAOM: Please help identify boat on cover

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  • Rob Kellock
    This question is asked many times, because unfortunately that 1980 design appeared in a much earlier book called Different Boats published 1981, which even
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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      This question is asked many times, because unfortunately that 1980 design appeared in a much earlier book called "Different Boats" published 1981, which even as a second hand book, is becoming very expensive (the lowest price I've seen on Amazon is USD100.00+ for a well used one)! Here is the link to the most recent thread discussion about it.

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/60355

      I'm a BIG fan of this boat and have collected a number of pictures of it's interior and exterior over the years. Does anyone know if there is an existing collection of photos somewhere in the various Bolger forums that I can append to, otherwise I'll start a new album under this forum.

      Cheers,

      Rob.

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "luke_seubert" <luke_seubert@...> wrote:
      >
      > Good day all,
      >
      > I am trying to figure out the identity of a boat pictured on the front cover of the 1994 paperback, "Boats With An Open Mind".
      >
      > It is an inset photo, not the main cover photo. It is the one in the upper left. It looks like one of Bolger's Advanced Sharpies - a stubby one, sitting on the beach with the tide well out. It has two equally tall masts, and a furled sail shrouded in red cloth. It bears some resemblance to the "Wish II", but I do not believe that is it.
      >
      > I carefully went through the book, looking for this design, but could not find it. Either I missed it, or it is some other Bolger design.
      >
      > If anybody knows which Bolger boat this is on the cover of BWAOM, please post a reply.
      >
      > Many thanks,
      > Luke
      >
    • prairiedog2332
      Probably most people have seen these already: http://www.boatdesign.com/tomboy/index.htm
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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        Probably most people have seen these already:

        http://www.boatdesign.com/tomboy/index.htm

        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Kellock" <creditscorenz@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > This question is asked many times, because unfortunately that 1980 design appeared in a much earlier book called "Different Boats" published 1981, which even as a second hand book, is becoming very expensive (the lowest price I've seen on Amazon is USD100.00+ for a well used one)! Here is the link to the most recent thread discussion about it.
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/60355
        >
        > I'm a BIG fan of this boat and have collected a number of pictures of it's interior and exterior over the years. Does anyone know if there is an existing collection of photos somewhere in the various Bolger forums that I can append to, otherwise I'll start a new album under this forum.
        >
        > Cheers,
        >
        > Rob.
        >
        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "luke_seubert" <luke_seubert@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Good day all,
        > >
        > > I am trying to figure out the identity of a boat pictured on the front cover of the 1994 paperback, "Boats With An Open Mind".
        > >
        > > It is an inset photo, not the main cover photo. It is the one in the upper left. It looks like one of Bolger's Advanced Sharpies - a stubby one, sitting on the beach with the tide well out. It has two equally tall masts, and a furled sail shrouded in red cloth. It bears some resemblance to the "Wish II", but I do not believe that is it.
        > >
        > > I carefully went through the book, looking for this design, but could not find it. Either I missed it, or it is some other Bolger design.
        > >
        > > If anybody knows which Bolger boat this is on the cover of BWAOM, please post a reply.
        > >
        > > Many thanks,
        > > Luke
        > >
        >
      • Rob Kellock
        True, but there s another recent high quality one of Tomboy (we haven t actually stated yet that we re talking about design #389 Jessie Cooper, for those who
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 3, 2010
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          True, but there's another recent high quality one of Tomboy (we haven't actually stated yet that we're talking about design #389 Jessie Cooper, for those who are still wondering?) at a recent boat show and a lower quality but still beautiful one of Tomboy broad reaching with the Seattle skyline behind. And then Bob and Sheila Wise tantalise with the odd photograph of Loose Moose One that they drop into their blogs now and then.

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
          >
          > Probably most people have seen these already:
          >
          > http://www.boatdesign.com/tomboy/index.htm
          >
          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Kellock" <creditscorenz@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > This question is asked many times, because unfortunately that 1980 design appeared in a much earlier book called "Different Boats" published 1981, which even as a second hand book, is becoming very expensive (the lowest price I've seen on Amazon is USD100.00+ for a well used one)! Here is the link to the most recent thread discussion about it.
          > >
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/60355
          > >
          > > I'm a BIG fan of this boat and have collected a number of pictures of it's interior and exterior over the years. Does anyone know if there is an existing collection of photos somewhere in the various Bolger forums that I can append to, otherwise I'll start a new album under this forum.
          > >
          > > Cheers,
          > >
          > > Rob.
          > >
          > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "luke_seubert" <luke_seubert@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Good day all,
          > > >
          > > > I am trying to figure out the identity of a boat pictured on the front cover of the 1994 paperback, "Boats With An Open Mind".
          > > >
          > > > It is an inset photo, not the main cover photo. It is the one in the upper left. It looks like one of Bolger's Advanced Sharpies - a stubby one, sitting on the beach with the tide well out. It has two equally tall masts, and a furled sail shrouded in red cloth. It bears some resemblance to the "Wish II", but I do not believe that is it.
          > > >
          > > > I carefully went through the book, looking for this design, but could not find it. Either I missed it, or it is some other Bolger design.
          > > >
          > > > If anybody knows which Bolger boat this is on the cover of BWAOM, please post a reply.
          > > >
          > > > Many thanks,
          > > > Luke
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • luke_seubert
          Ah yes - the Jessie Cooper. I had seen that boat before, but I didn t make the connection when I saw it again on BWAOM. My thanks to those who replied and
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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            Ah yes - the Jessie Cooper. I had seen that boat before, but I didn't make the connection when I saw it again on BWAOM.

            My thanks to those who replied and emailed. I appreciate your help.

            Cheers,
            Luke
          • Rob Kellock
            Apologies about spreading misinformation. The Jessie Cooper design appeared in Chapter 12 of 30 Odd Boats published 1982, not Different Boats published
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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              Apologies about spreading misinformation. The "Jessie Cooper" design appeared in Chapter 12 of "30 Odd Boats" published 1982, not "Different Boats" published 1980.

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Kellock" <creditscorenz@...> wrote:
              >
              > This question is asked many times, because unfortunately that 1980 design appeared in a much earlier book called "Different Boats" published 1981
            • sirdarnell
              It does look like the Jessie Cooper design he named Tomboy.
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                It does look like the Jessie Cooper design he named Tomboy.

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "prairiedog2332" <arvent@...> wrote:
                >
                > Probably most people have seen these already:
                >
                > http://www.boatdesign.com/tomboy/index.htm
                >
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Kellock" <creditscorenz@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > This question is asked many times, because unfortunately that 1980 design appeared in a much earlier book called "Different Boats" published 1981, which even as a second hand book, is becoming very expensive (the lowest price I've seen on Amazon is USD100.00+ for a well used one)! Here is the link to the most recent thread discussion about it.
                > >
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/60355
                > >
                > > I'm a BIG fan of this boat and have collected a number of pictures of it's interior and exterior over the years. Does anyone know if there is an existing collection of photos somewhere in the various Bolger forums that I can append to, otherwise I'll start a new album under this forum.
                > >
                > > Cheers,
                > >
                > > Rob.
                > >
                > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "luke_seubert" <luke_seubert@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Good day all,
                > > >
                > > > I am trying to figure out the identity of a boat pictured on the front cover of the 1994 paperback, "Boats With An Open Mind".
                > > >
                > > > It is an inset photo, not the main cover photo. It is the one in the upper left. It looks like one of Bolger's Advanced Sharpies - a stubby one, sitting on the beach with the tide well out. It has two equally tall masts, and a furled sail shrouded in red cloth. It bears some resemblance to the "Wish II", but I do not believe that is it.
                > > >
                > > > I carefully went through the book, looking for this design, but could not find it. Either I missed it, or it is some other Bolger design.
                > > >
                > > > If anybody knows which Bolger boat this is on the cover of BWAOM, please post a reply.
                > > >
                > > > Many thanks,
                > > > Luke
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Andrew
                Just an idea: Given Bolger s older, out of print books are hard to find there must be an argument to get them up on Google books in full. I understand the
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 4, 2010
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                  Just an idea:

                  Given Bolger's older, out of print books are hard to find there must be an argument to get them up on Google books in full. I understand the copyright holder receives a payment from Google (which is better than the current situation where only second hand book dealers are making money) so I imagine Susanne and International Marine would have some benefits to consider.

                  I am no expert. Does anyone know how it works? Who would need to talk to whom to get the ball rolling?

                  Regards,

                  Andrew

                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Kellock" <creditscorenz@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > This question is asked many times, because unfortunately that 1980 design appeared in a much earlier book called "Different Boats" published 1981, which even as a second hand book, is becoming very expensive (the lowest price I've seen on Amazon is USD100.00+ for a well used one)! <snip>
                  > Cheers,
                  >
                  > Rob.
                  >
                • graeme19121984
                  ... Please share your Jesse Cooper photo collection, Rob. I ve had a quick look through the other groups and am fairly sure there s no existing File or Album
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 5, 2010
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                    > have collected a number of pictures...

                    Please share your Jesse Cooper photo collection, Rob. I've had a quick look through the other groups and am fairly sure there's no existing File or Album in them, so if you'd start one here that'd be great.


                    Graeme
                  • Bruce Hallman
                    ... I would love to see more Jessie Cooper photos too. Here is a link to some isometric studies of Jessie Cooper, plus my interpretation of the hull shape
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 5, 2010
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                      > > have collected a number of pictures...


                      I would love to see more Jessie Cooper photos too.

                      Here is a link to some isometric studies of Jessie Cooper, plus my
                      interpretation of the hull shape modeled in 'fbm'

                      http://hallman.org/bolger/JessieCooper/
                    • Rob Kellock
                      The results of my incessant trawling of the Internet for photos relating to the Jessie Cooper design have been posted to the photo album called Jessie Cooper.
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 5, 2010
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                        The results of my incessant trawling of the Internet for photos relating to the Jessie Cooper design have been posted to the photo album called Jessie Cooper. There are three boats shown:

                        1. Chuck Merrell's Tomboy in Seattle
                        2. Bob and Sheila Wise's Loose Moose in France
                        3. Mark ?'s Dugong in Australia

                        I'm pretty certain that the plans (I don't currently own a copy of the plans) call for a skeg to run forward from the rudder to the deepest part of the hull. Bruce, your isometrics don't show it and I know that Tomboy doesn't have it. I'm not sure whether the other two builder's included it or not. Can somebody please confirm that this skeg is part of the design.

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > > have collected a number of pictures...
                        >
                        >
                        > I would love to see more Jessie Cooper photos too.
                        >
                        > Here is a link to some isometric studies of Jessie Cooper, plus my
                        > interpretation of the hull shape modeled in 'fbm'
                        >
                        > http://hallman.org/bolger/JessieCooper/
                        >
                      • Franko
                        Nope. No skeg on the plans. That was one of Chucks proposed nods. On Aug 5, 2010 7:06 PM, Rob Kellock wrote: The results of my
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 5, 2010
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                          Nope. No skeg on the plans. That was one of Chucks proposed nods.

                          On Aug 5, 2010 7:06 PM, "Rob Kellock" <creditscorenz@...> wrote:

                           

                          The results of my incessant trawling of the Internet for photos relating to the Jessie Cooper design have been posted to the photo album called Jessie Cooper. There are three boats shown:

                          1. Chuck Merrell's Tomboy in Seattle
                          2. Bob and Sheila Wise's Loose Moose in France
                          3. Mark ?'s Dugong in Australia

                          I'm pretty certain that the plans (I don't currently own a copy of the plans) call for a skeg to run forward from the rudder to the deepest part of the hull. Bruce, your isometrics don't show it and I know that Tomboy doesn't have it. I'm not sure whether the other two builder's included it or not. Can somebody please confirm that this skeg is part of the design.



                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > > have collected a number ...

                        • Rob Kellock
                          Page 71 in 30 Odd Boats looks to be a facsimile of the original plans and I m certain there is the outline of a skeg there, but it doesn t appear again
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 5, 2010
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                            Page 71 in 30 Odd Boats looks to be a facsimile of the original plans and I'm certain there is the outline of a skeg there, but it doesn't appear again anywhere else in the write-up.

                            I wonder whether it was supposed to have a skeg and that got missed in the issued plans?

                            I notice that other traditionally shaped sharpie hulls like the Jessie Cooper, which have a nearly flat run in the forward 2/3's followed by a strongly rockered rear 1/3, include a skeg or deadwood from the transom forward to the deepest part of the hull bottom.

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Franko <fortsiii@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Nope. No skeg on the plans. That was one of Chucks proposed nods.
                          • graeme19121984
                            Rob, I think you re seeing the boot stripe there in profile as the bottom. The dotted line below is the outline of the bottom. Thanks for posting the pics.
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 6, 2010
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                              Rob, I think you're seeing the boot stripe there in profile as the bottom. The dotted line below is the outline of the bottom.

                              Thanks for posting the pics. Wow, you even had one of the fabled Oz boat! Leeboards? Any report on them?

                              Trad flat bottomed sharpies have a longer flat forward run than this one. The result I think is that JC will have the bow higher above the water when heeled sailing in level trim. She'll sail on her nicely complementing curves about midships more so. Immersed bow bad / equal chine curvature good ;)

                              Graeme

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Kellock" <creditscorenz@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Page 71 in 30 Odd Boats looks to be a facsimile of the original plans and I'm certain there is the outline of a skeg there, but it doesn't appear again anywhere else in the write-up.
                              >
                              > I wonder whether it was supposed to have a skeg and that got missed in the issued plans?
                              >
                              > I notice that other traditionally shaped sharpie hulls like the Jessie Cooper, which have a nearly flat run in the forward 2/3's followed by a strongly rockered rear 1/3, include a skeg or deadwood from the transom forward to the deepest part of the hull bottom.
                              >
                              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Franko <fortsiii@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Nope. No skeg on the plans. That was one of Chucks proposed nods.
                              >
                            • Rob Kellock
                              ... This is what Mark, Dugong s builder, had to say about the modifications he made to the design. I ve just copied it from here:
                              Message 14 of 18 , Aug 8, 2010
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                                > Thanks for posting the pics. Wow, you even had one of the fabled Oz boat! Leeboards? Any report on them?

                                This is what Mark, Dugong's builder, had to say about the modifications he made to the design. I've just copied it from here:

                                http://www.woodworkforums.com/f32/wharram-pahi-catamarans-48537/index2.html

                                "Anyways, I met someone who was building a Bolger AS29 -the builder sadly is no longer around but he did a real nice job on the AS29 and I helped him out a little and was introduced to sharpies and Bolger boats all in one go.
                                The priceless little classic book "The Good Little Ship" influenced me strongly to building a sharpie and Bolger had designed a 25' Jesse Cooper which was the answer-it had standing headroom in the galley, a spacious rear cabin and a comfortable salon and good sailing for its' size. A great coastal sailing yacht. I did get rid of the daggerboard and replaced with leeboards, which sometimes are a bit cumbersome but they work quite well.
                                I replaced the lugsail rig with a gaff and a bowsprite, Bolger said as long as I left the lines of the boat as is, modifications of a reasonable nature were OK. I raised the rear deck slightly and Dugong now also has -Dah de Dah-twin rudders! which work fantastically."

                                "Depending on conditions the "Dugong" will cruise between 4 and 6 knots. It will go faster and I have touched 7&1/2 knots and surfed across a few bars considerably faster than that. But cruising 4-6 kts on average with faire winds.
                                The leeboards do do funny things when tacking like duckwinging etc however they just tend to go CLUNK when I go about-but I acquired a new pair and they don't have the same design work on the top of them as Bolger has on the Martha Janes' leeboards and I plan to remedy this as they do do the GAAARUNCH a bit and that comes from a lot off pressure being put on the board as it goes out from the side to do its' duckwing thing."

                                This is the same boat that somebody else said was knocked down and remained on it's side. We had a bit of a discussion about the reasons for that back here beginning at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/63542
                              • graeme19121984
                                ... Thanks for the link. So at that time, Rob, Mark had sailed his Jessie Cooper for 10 years. And he d done some extensive coastal sailing it seems, am I
                                Message 15 of 18 , Aug 10, 2010
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                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Kellock" <creditscorenz@...>

                                  > This is what Mark, Dugong's builder, had to say about the modifications he made to the design. I've just copied it from here:

                                  > http://www.woodworkforums.com/f32/wharram-pahi-catamarans-48537/index2.html


                                  Thanks for the link. So at that time, Rob, Mark had sailed his Jessie Cooper for 10 years. And he'd done some extensive coastal sailing it seems, am I correct? Qld? He mentions crossing bars, I suppose at Brunswick Heads, but also the Sandy Straights entrance is pretty impressive for this boat. He gives J C a good rap, more or less confirming what Bob Wise has written about her sea keeping, no?

                                  Graeme
                                • c.ruzer
                                  Rob, here s a link to what I think may be another Aussie Jessie Cooper (all bets are off though). At least I think that s how it started before huge
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Sep 30, 2010
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                                    Rob, here's a link to what I think may be another Aussie Jessie Cooper (all bets are off though). At least I think that's how it started before huge modification. Recent build. A step too far? I doubt you could build and launch a good Jessie C for much better than the asking price. Woodstove - yummy down frozen south - and Rosie would probably like it :-) but would she ever crew on a passage beyond the D'Eentrecasteaux Channel?

                                    I like 'pilot house' shelters for the warm north too, but, well, have a look at this boat:
                                    http://www.yachthub.com.au/list/ed.html?de=74629

                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Rob Kellock" <creditscorenz@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > Thanks for posting the pics. Wow, you even had one of the fabled Oz boat! Leeboards? Any report on them?
                                    >
                                    > This is what Mark, Dugong's builder, had to say about the modifications he made to the design. I've just copied it from here:
                                    >
                                    > http://www.woodworkforums.com/f32/wharram-pahi-catamarans-48537/index2.html
                                    >
                                    > "Anyways, I met someone who was building a Bolger AS29 -the builder sadly is no longer around but he did a real nice job on the AS29 and I helped him out a little and was introduced to sharpies and Bolger boats all in one go.
                                    > The priceless little classic book "The Good Little Ship" influenced me strongly to building a sharpie and Bolger had designed a 25' Jesse Cooper which was the answer-it had standing headroom in the galley, a spacious rear cabin and a comfortable salon and good sailing for its' size. A great coastal sailing yacht. I did get rid of the daggerboard and replaced with leeboards, which sometimes are a bit cumbersome but they work quite well.
                                    > I replaced the lugsail rig with a gaff and a bowsprite, Bolger said as long as I left the lines of the boat as is, modifications of a reasonable nature were OK. I raised the rear deck slightly and Dugong now also has -Dah de Dah-twin rudders! which work fantastically."
                                    >
                                    > "Depending on conditions the "Dugong" will cruise between 4 and 6 knots. It will go faster and I have touched 7&1/2 knots and surfed across a few bars considerably faster than that. But cruising 4-6 kts on average with faire winds.
                                    > The leeboards do do funny things when tacking like duckwinging etc however they just tend to go CLUNK when I go about-but I acquired a new pair and they don't have the same design work on the top of them as Bolger has on the Martha Janes' leeboards and I plan to remedy this as they do do the GAAARUNCH a bit and that comes from a lot off pressure being put on the board as it goes out from the side to do its' duckwing thing."
                                    >
                                    > This is the same boat that somebody else said was knocked down and remained on it's side. We had a bit of a discussion about the reasons for that back here beginning at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/message/63542
                                    >
                                  • Rob Kellock
                                    I think it is wrong for the sellers to identify Phil Bolger as the designer of this boat. There are so many things going on here that I doubt he would
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Oct 5, 2010
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                                      I think it is wrong for the sellers to identify Phil Bolger as the designer of this boat. There are so many things going on here that I doubt he would countenance:

                                      1. The pilot house
                                      2. The weak external dagger board
                                      3. The lug mizzen
                                      4. The centered main mast so that you can no longer access the balanced lug from the safety of the forward hatch
                                      5. Displacement 3300 pounds vs Jessie Cooper 6150 pounds
                                      6. The completely reworked interior

                                      Would I go to sea in this? No way. Its a houseboat not a sailboat. Even in protected waters I would be concerned whether it would be capable of self-righting from 70 degrees of heel.

                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "c.ruzer" <c.ruzer@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Rob, here's a link to what I think may be another Aussie Jessie Cooper (all bets are off though). At least I think that's how it started before huge modification. Recent build. A step too far? I doubt you could build and launch a good Jessie C for much better than the asking price. Woodstove - yummy down frozen south - and Rosie would probably like it :-) but would she ever crew on a passage beyond the D'Eentrecasteaux Channel?
                                      >
                                      > I like 'pilot house' shelters for the warm north too, but, well, have a look at this boat:
                                      > http://www.yachthub.com.au/list/ed.html?de=74629
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