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[bolger] Re: DSF

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  • Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco
    Dear Bill - I don t know. I haven t been able to find the definitions of the categories on the net. By the way, do you have such an URL to point me to? Best,
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 1, 1999
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      Dear Bill - I don't know. I haven't been able to find the definitions of
      the categories on the net. By the way, do you have such an URL to point
      me to?

      Best, Pippo

      Samson family ha scritto:

      >
      > Incidentally, how does DSF relate to the Euro categories A, B, C, and D . .
      > . ? Or is there a simple relationship?
      >
      > Bill
      > -- bill.samson@...
      >
      > Chebacco News can be viewed on:
      > http://members.xoom.com/billsamson
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco <pippobianco@...>
      > To: bolger@egroups.com <bolger@egroups.com>
      > Date: 30 October 1999 20:58
      > Subject: [bolger] Re: DSF
      >
      > >Hi Bill - According to the numbers, well, yes, some ballast would
      > >increase the dry displacement and lower the center of mass. My results
      > >say that the Chebacco is less than average in the following parameters:
      > >
      > >Displacement-lenght factor ( the boat is light w.r.t to its size)
      > >Beam-displacemnt factor (the beam is too wide)
      > >Self righting factor (the Chebacco has a very small righting moment at
      > >90 degrees of heel)
      > >Relative area factor (the range of stability is somehow low)
      > >
      > >On the other hand, the Chebacco is right on the average in the
      > >Stability speed loss ratio (should sail reasonably well in rough water),
      > >and better than average in the Sail area displacement beam lenght factor
      > >(good ability in carrying sail).
      > >
      > >Some ballast down below would stiffen the boat and increase the DSF, not
      > >dramatically though, provided that the overall dispacement remains the
      > >same. I don't think you can realistically increase the DSF to a value of
      > >more than 15.
      > >
      > >Best, Pippo
      > >
      > >Samson family ha scritto:
      > >>
      > >> Thanks, Pippo,
      > >>
      > >> I wasn't sure, but thought it might be something like that. Presumably a
      > >> little ballast low down would help? Do you know how that compares with a
      > >> Drascombe Lugger, for example? The other interesting boat in this class
      > is
      > >> the Falmouth Bass Boat, which is supposed to be category C (Inshore?)
      > >>
      > >> Bill
      > >> -- bill.samson@...
      > >>
      > >> Chebacco News can be viewed on:
      > >> http://members.xoom.com/billsamson
      > >>
      > >> -----Original Message-----
      > >> From: Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco <pippobianco@...>
      > >> To: bolger@egroups.com <bolger@egroups.com>
      > >> Date: 30 October 1999 10:23
      > >> Subject: [bolger] Re: DSF
      > >>
      > >> >Dear Bill - it's right on the border between inshore and sheltered,
      > >> >depending on how high the gravity center is w.r.t. to the waterline. I
      > >> >estimate that, given the shape of the Chebacco, the DSF is a bit
      > >> >underestimated for the boat.
      > >> >Best, Pippo
      > >> >
      > >> >Samson family ha scritto:
      > >> >>
      > >> >> Dear Pippo,
      > >> >>
      > >> >> I know you've done a detailed analysis of Chebacco's characteristics.
      > >> Which
      > >> >> category do you think she fits best?
      > >> >>
      > >> >> Bill
      > >> >> -- bill.samson@...
      > >> >>
      > >> >> Chebacco News can be viewed on:
      > >> >> http://members.xoom.com/billsamson
      > >> >>
      > >> >> -----Original Message-----
      > >> >> From: bianco@... <bianco@...>
      > >> >> To: bolger@... <bolger@...>
      > >> >> Date: 29 October 1999 09:14
      > >> >> Subject: [bolger] Re: DSF
      > >> >>
      > >> >> >David
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >> I read Pippo's exposition on the micro with considerable interest.
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >Thanks
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >> It's always fun to see what people who know what they are doing
      > think
      > >> >> >> about when they do what they do (like design boats.)
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >Hey, this is a bit involved, my English fails after two levels of
      > >> >> >nested loops... What does it mean, plainly?
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >> This might come under the "there's no such thing as a stupid
      > >> >> >> question" catagory, but just what do those 4 DSF categories mean?
      > >> >> >> What IS the difference between sheltered and inshore, offshore and
      > >> >> >> ocean?
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >I imagine the difference here is the size and strenght of the waves
      > >> >> >(fetch effects).
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >> I suppose it doesn't matter much, with enough stupidity and/or
      > >> >> >> hubris, you can get your butt kicked on just about any body of
      > water.
      > >> >> >> But if people are taking measurements and making distinctions, I'd
      > >> >> >> like to know what's going into the calculation.
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >The method I applied is being developed in the framework of an ISO
      > >> >> >working group. As far as I know, it has not yet been finalized. I've
      > >> >> >tried to retrace the original document without success up to now. In
      > >> >> >any case, here are the parameters that go into the calculations (hope
      > >> >> >not to forget anything):
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >Length out all
      > >> >> >Length at water level
      > >> >> >Maximum beam
      > >> >> >Beam at water level
      > >> >> >Canoe body draft
      > >> >> >Sail area
      > >> >> >Displacement
      > >> >> >Righting arm at 90 degrees of heel
      > >> >> >Metacentric heigth
      > >> >> >Stability range (draw the stability curve, compute the areas above
      > and
      > >> >> >below the zero and compute the ratio between the two)
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >Then you compute some 7 parameters with a few formulas, and finally
      > you
      > >> >> >get your DSF. I think the method gives meaningful results.
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >Best, Pippo
      > >> >> >
      > >> >> >
      > >> >>
      > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
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      > >> >> >you'll find thousands of free 2torials, affordable online courses,
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    • Samson family
      ... Not that I know of. I understand that A is open ocean, B is coastal (?) , C is inshore, D is sheltered . . . But trying to get any documentation on the
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 1, 1999
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        >Dear Bill - I don't know. I haven't been able to find the definitions of
        >the categories on the net. By the way, do you have such an URL to point
        >me to?
        >

        Not that I know of. I understand that A is open ocean, B is coastal (?) , C
        is inshore, D is sheltered . . . But trying to get any documentation on the
        subject is like getting blood out of a stone. I just go by what the boating
        magazines say - but I've no idea where they get their information from.

        I find it incredible that the EC has no information that's worth a shit on
        the net. I'm no right wing Eurosceptic, but this kind of secrecy and
        incompetence does them no favours.

        These Euroidiots are pretty good at making laws and then making it
        impossible to find out what they are! My previous Euro MP spent months
        trying to find out about the Recreational Craft Directive for me, and
        couldn't find anybody in Brussels who had heard of it! Poor guy died soon
        after - probably of frustration! I felt a bit guilty about adding to his
        burden, so I haven't bothered my new EuroMP about it.

        Please excuse the ranting!

        Cheers,

        Bill
      • Chuck Merrell
        Hi Bill, Starting off Monday with a bang, huh? Re the EU: Go back to what Harry Browne says about dealing with bureaucracies, to wit (freely translated and as
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 1, 1999
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          Hi Bill,

          Starting off Monday with a bang, huh?

          Re the EU: Go back to what Harry Browne says about dealing with
          bureaucracies, to wit (freely translated and as I remember): Do what you
          want to do because by the time they get around and in position to cause you
          any real trouble you'll either be dead of old age, they'll have changed the
          system or you'll have sold the boat . In any case the perceived problem is
          moot, i.e. build the boat you want and don't think about it.

          If your MP can't get any information, can you see the EU guys trying to wade
          through the miasma of UK common law just to get into position to give you a
          ticket for an improper boat design, or even if you're tied up to their dock?
          Maybe I'm too cavalier about this and maybe they're better organized than
          I'd guess, but I think not!

          BTW: At the moment sitting here checking email and having a cup of the
          Scottish Blend Tea that you sent over. Yummy, thanks again!

          Happy Ranting!

          Chuck

          ***********************************
          CHUCK MERRELL
          MERRELL WATERCRAFT
          P. O. Box 80264
          Seattle, WA 98108-0264
          (206) 764-1298
          Email: chuck@...
          Web Site: http://www.boatdesign.com
          ********************************************

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Samson family <Bill.Samson@...>
          To: <bolger@egroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 10:48 AM
          Subject: [bolger] Re: DSF


          >
          >
          > >Dear Bill - I don't know. I haven't been able to find the definitions of
          > >the categories on the net. By the way, do you have such an URL to point
          > >me to?
          > >
          >
          > Not that I know of. I understand that A is open ocean, B is coastal (?) ,
          C
          > is inshore, D is sheltered . . . But trying to get any documentation on
          the
          > subject is like getting blood out of a stone. I just go by what the
          boating
          > magazines say - but I've no idea where they get their information from.
          >
          > I find it incredible that the EC has no information that's worth a shit on
          > the net. I'm no right wing Eurosceptic, but this kind of secrecy and
          > incompetence does them no favours.
          >
          > These Euroidiots are pretty good at making laws and then making it
          > impossible to find out what they are! My previous Euro MP spent months
          > trying to find out about the Recreational Craft Directive for me, and
          > couldn't find anybody in Brussels who had heard of it! Poor guy died soon
          > after - probably of frustration! I felt a bit guilty about adding to his
          > burden, so I haven't bothered my new EuroMP about it.
          >
          > Please excuse the ranting!
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > Bill
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > Looking for the hottest sports memorabilia or sporting goods
          > specials? eBay has thousands of trading cards, sports autographs
          > and collectibles.You never know what you might find at eBay!
          > http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1143
          >
          >
          > eGroup Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/
          > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
          >
          >
          >
        • bianco@asi.it
          Dear Bill samson family wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=640 ... (?) , C ... on the ... boating ...
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 2, 1999
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            Dear Bill

            "samson family" <bill.samso-@...> wrote:
            original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=640

            > Not that I know of. I understand that A is open ocean, B is coastal
            (?) , C
            > is inshore, D is sheltered . . . But trying to get any documentation
            on the
            > subject is like getting blood out of a stone. I just go by what the
            boating
            > magazines say - but I've no idea where they get their information
            from.

            So it appears that there's a 1:1 relationship...

            > I find it incredible that the EC has no information that's worth a
            shit on
            > the net. I'm no right wing Eurosceptic, but this kind of secrecy and
            > incompetence does them no favours.

            Agree!

            > These Euroidiots are pretty good at making laws and then making it
            > impossible to find out what they are! My previous Euro MP spent
            months
            > trying to find out about the Recreational Craft Directive for me, and
            > couldn't find anybody in Brussels who had heard of it! Poor guy died
            soon
            > after - probably of frustration! I felt a bit guilty about adding to
            his
            > burden, so I haven't bothered my new EuroMP about it.

            Well, what can you expect from people who discussed ten years before
            eventually agreeing on the definition of the "sleeping shirt"...

            Best, Pippo
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