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Re: Two Designs named 'Jinny' and CSD/CSB practices

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  • graeme19121984
    ... Susanne, for those overseas, what do think of PayPal? Graeme
    Message 1 of 30 , Jul 7, 2010
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      > When in doubt, contact 'the Source' i.e. us at
      > Phil Bolger & Friends Inc.

      Susanne,

      for those overseas, what do think of PayPal?

      Graeme
    • alefoot
      ... ... what design is that featured in The Resident ? PCB doesn t mention whether it is a finished design. An essay with that title forms most of chapter
      Message 2 of 30 , Jul 7, 2010
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        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
        "... what design is that featured in "The Resident"? PCB doesn't mention whether it is a finished design. "

        An essay with that title forms most of chapter 67 in BWAOM [Leeboard Catboat].

        cheers
        Derek
      • Mark Albanese
        The Resident is the Leeboard Catboat described in BWAOM, chapter 67.
        Message 3 of 30 , Jul 10, 2010
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          'The Resident' is the Leeboard Catboat described in BWAOM, chapter 67.

          > The "Scenarios" article is a great one, but what design is that
          > featured in "The Resident"? PCB doesn't mention whether it is a
          > finished design. It may be wholely speculative on the theme: the
          > illustration is even by a Stephen L Davis.
        • apraphett777
          Yes Sir she sure is it is like the longer you look at her the more she seduces you :)
          Message 4 of 30 , Jul 15, 2010
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            Yes Sir she sure is it is like the longer you look at her the more she seduces you :)

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Lovely looking design, Jinni, isn't she David? The harmony of the proportions, proud stem, the masts raked just so... ah. Of course there's the super practicality, the economy, and so on. Sometimes not seen immediately, it looks too easy, is the... genius.
            >
            > Graeme
            >
            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, david johnson <djsaprophet@> wrote:
            > >
            > > are the plans for Jinni in any of Phils books ?
            > >
            >
          • Christopher C. Wetherill
            Is the MAIB article posted anywhere?
            Message 5 of 30 , Jul 15, 2010
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              Is the MAIB article posted anywhere?

              On 7/15/2010 9:02 PM, apraphett777 wrote:
              
              
              Yes Sir she sure is it is like the longer you look at her the more she seduces you :)
              
              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
                
              
              
              
              
              Lovely looking design, Jinni, isn't she David? The harmony of the proportions, proud stem, the masts raked just so... ah. Of course there's the super practicality, the economy, and so on. Sometimes not seen immediately, it looks too easy, is the... genius.
              
              Graeme
              
              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, david johnson <djsaprophet@> wrote:
                  
              are the plans for Jinni in any of Phils books ?
              
                    
                  
              
                
            • Bruce Hallman
              On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Christopher C. Wetherill ... There actually was not a Bolger article about Jinni in MAIB. A couple build articles. Early on
              Message 6 of 30 , Jul 15, 2010
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                On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Christopher C. Wetherill
                <wetherillc@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Is the MAIB article posted anywhere?
                >


                There actually was not a Bolger article about Jinni in MAIB. A couple
                'build' articles.
                Early on there was a Jim Michalak article, and of course the write-up in the
                Common Sense Design catalog, plus the essay from WB.

                http://www.hallman.org/bolger/426/
              • Christopher C. Wetherill
                Thanks, Interesting that the pictures lack the leeboards. V/R Chris
                Message 7 of 30 , Jul 15, 2010
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                  Thanks,

                  Interesting that the pictures lack the leeboards.

                  V/R
                  Chris
                  On 7/15/2010 10:44 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
                  On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Christopher C. Wetherill
                  <wetherillc@...> wrote:
                    
                  
                  
                  Is the MAIB article posted anywhere?
                  
                      
                  
                  There actually was not a Bolger article about Jinni in MAIB. A couple
                  'build' articles.
                  Early on there was a Jim Michalak article, and of course the write-up in the
                  Common Sense Design catalog, plus the essay from WB.
                  
                  http://www.hallman.org/bolger/426/
                  
                  
                  
                    
                • graeme19121984
                  At Chuck Merrell s site in an Instant Boatbuilder issue there s a two page article by Jim Michalak on his first Jinni, written after sailing for a while. In
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jul 18, 2010
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                    At Chuck Merrell's site in an Instant Boatbuilder issue there's a two page article by Jim Michalak on his first Jinni, written after sailing for a while. In another issue there's a Jim Michalak layout sketch of plywood sheet use. Here's the index http://www.boatdesign.com/postings/Files/instbb/index.pdf

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    >
                    > Interesting that the pictures lack the leeboards.
                    >
                    > V/R
                    > Chris
                    > On 7/15/2010 10:44 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
                    > > On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Christopher C. Wetherill
                    > > <wetherillc@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >> Is the MAIB article posted anywhere?
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > > There actually was not a Bolger article about Jinni in MAIB. A couple
                    > > 'build' articles.
                    > > Early on there was a Jim Michalak article, and of course the write-up in the
                    > > Common Sense Design catalog, plus the essay from WB.
                    > >
                    > > http://www.hallman.org/bolger/426/
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • graeme19121984
                    ... That s likely due to the boats shown being built to the (first?) version of the plan that has a single daggerboard shipped through slots let in the guards
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jul 18, 2010
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                      > Interesting that the pictures lack the leeboards.

                      That's likely due to the boats shown being built to the (first?) version of the plan that has a single daggerboard shipped through slots let in the guards to starboard. It's somewhat similar to that on June Bug #400. The slot and upper guard are just visible here behind the starboard rollock http://www.hallman.org/bolger/426/V11-N14%20Jinni%20build.gif The board as drawn has a leading edge that slants at a good angle aft to a square tip, thence a plumb trailing edge. Likewise the one-piece fixed-rudder slopes away aft, no doubt to shake off the skultch (don't ya love that word!) and potwarp common in the Designer's sailing home waters. In the 'Singlehander' PCB wrote that with the foils unshipped and laid on the aft deck Jinni was good for a mile or two of rowing, and, anyway, the woman preferred the chance to look around afforded by rowing the last into shallow sheltered anchorages. Personal safety, and good neighbourly relations were stressed here.

                      I believe Jim Michalak had the plans first and built Jinni from scratch with the alterations of his own Mk1 pivoting leeboard and rudder in mind to suit his thin waters. I'm not sure, but it seems likely the additional PCB drawing for the leeboards and kick-up rudder option as solely shown in the later CSB catalogues were added to the plans after Michalak reported back on the prototype. I think too that the mainsail rig design was altered from a thin (light-ish) mast and fixed head without halyard to show only that having halyard and track. The 'Singlehander' had unreefable halyardless main, but carried a much smaller mainsail which involved unstepping the mast to change sail. Although she might jerk the light rig quick-and-easy up and over the side alee to act as drogue when struck by a squall others possibly preferred easily taking in the two reefs as later shown. Michalak also fitted crutches to port to carry the large rig a foot or so higher than the gunnels when trailing and rowing.

                      The woman carried a tarp for this wet boat (landlubber campers might think groundsheet). It instantly gave a dry interior when laid across the floor and up the sides - a very neat touch I thought from someone who'd obviously beach cruised often. The 'Singlehander' extract is merely six paragraphs long which belies the vast amount of information and considered opinion it packs. What a writer.

                      Graeme

                      very delighted to have just caught a Bolger Boats for AUD21 and not 200+. Yippeeeeeee

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Thanks,
                      >
                      > Interesting that the pictures lack the leeboards.
                      >
                      > V/R
                      > Chris
                    • Robert
                      I can access the link to Chuck s site, but not the actual Instant Boatbuilder articles. I am quite interested in Jinni after reviewing what I can find. I am
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jul 18, 2010
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                        I can access the link to Chuck's site, but not the actual Instant Boatbuilder articles. I am quite interested in Jinni after reviewing what I can find. I am suprised more were not built. I would love to read the Michalak article.

                        I would be torn between Jinni and Michalak's multi chine boats (woobo) as I live on the gulf. Like the two mast setup with mizzen, and the tabernacle. It would be fun to combine the two designs (woobo/Jinni). The flat floorboards of Jinni seem better suited to two campers, and I like the open slot in the rear airbox for oars etc...


                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > At Chuck Merrell's site in an Instant Boatbuilder issue there's a two page article by Jim Michalak on his first Jinni, written after sailing for a while. In another issue there's a Jim Michalak layout sketch of plywood sheet use. Here's the index http://www.boatdesign.com/postings/Files/instbb/index.pdf
                        >
                        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Thanks,
                        > >
                        > > Interesting that the pictures lack the leeboards.
                        > >
                        > > V/R
                        > > Chris
                        > > On 7/15/2010 10:44 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
                        > > > On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Christopher C. Wetherill
                        > > > <wetherillc@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >> Is the MAIB article posted anywhere?
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >
                        > > > There actually was not a Bolger article about Jinni in MAIB. A couple
                        > > > 'build' articles.
                        > > > Early on there was a Jim Michalak article, and of course the write-up in the
                        > > > Common Sense Design catalog, plus the essay from WB.
                        > > >
                        > > > http://www.hallman.org/bolger/426/
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • kinguq
                        I built a Jinni in 1993. Still have it although it has not been used lately, needs some work. In my considered opinion, there are some problems with the design
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jul 18, 2010
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                          I built a Jinni in 1993. Still have it although it has not been used lately, needs some work.

                          In my considered opinion, there are some problems with the design that were likely corrected in later boats.

                          It is somewhat overcanvassed and the rig is not convenient to reef. The rig is also difficult to single hand effectively.

                          The hull shape pounds severely, and the 1/4 inch ply called for in the design flexes a lot. Use thicker ply.

                          The loose leeboards are terrible devices and in my opinion quite dangerous. I dumped the boat once and was nearly struck in the head with the windward leeboard, which is very heavy. They also are not useful for righting the boat. Use Michalak type leeboards.

                          The boat does not row well, and a motor mount is needed.

                          If I were doing it again (and I may...) I would build a chine design like one of the many Michalak models. That would overcome the flexing and pounding issues. There may be other Bolger designs that would serve as well.

                          Kinguq.



                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <footstepfollower@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > I can access the link to Chuck's site, but not the actual Instant Boatbuilder articles. I am quite interested in Jinni after reviewing what I can find. I am suprised more were not built. I would love to read the Michalak article.
                          >
                          > I would be torn between Jinni and Michalak's multi chine boats (woobo) as I live on the gulf. Like the two mast setup with mizzen, and the tabernacle. It would be fun to combine the two designs (woobo/Jinni). The flat floorboards of Jinni seem better suited to two campers, and I like the open slot in the rear airbox for oars etc...
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > At Chuck Merrell's site in an Instant Boatbuilder issue there's a two page article by Jim Michalak on his first Jinni, written after sailing for a while. In another issue there's a Jim Michalak layout sketch of plywood sheet use. Here's the index http://www.boatdesign.com/postings/Files/instbb/index.pdf
                          > >
                          > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Thanks,
                          > > >
                          > > > Interesting that the pictures lack the leeboards.
                          > > >
                          > > > V/R
                          > > > Chris
                          > > > On 7/15/2010 10:44 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
                          > > > > On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Christopher C. Wetherill
                          > > > > <wetherillc@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > >>
                          > > > >>
                          > > > >> Is the MAIB article posted anywhere?
                          > > > >>
                          > > > >>
                          > > > >
                          > > > > There actually was not a Bolger article about Jinni in MAIB. A couple
                          > > > > 'build' articles.
                          > > > > Early on there was a Jim Michalak article, and of course the write-up in the
                          > > > > Common Sense Design catalog, plus the essay from WB.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > http://www.hallman.org/bolger/426/
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • graeme19121984
                          Robert, the IBB articles at Mr Merrell s are pdfs. Do you have a pdf reader such as Acrobat installed? If not, some are available to download for free. Here s
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jul 19, 2010
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                            Robert,

                            the IBB articles at Mr Merrell's are pdfs. Do you have a pdf reader such as Acrobat installed? If not, some are available to download for free. Here's the main IBB page http://www.boatdesign.com/postings/pages/instantbb.htm


                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <footstepfollower@...> wrote:

                            > I can access the link to Chuck's site, but not the actual Instant Boatbuilder articles.
                          • graeme19121984
                            Jinni carries sail for light winds. Jim Michalak capsized his about twice through his own fault, and never with the weight of two aboard. He carries little,
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jul 19, 2010
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                              Jinni carries sail for light winds. Jim Michalak capsized his about twice through his own fault, and never with the weight of two aboard. He carries little, and I'd guess where he sails he has no need to carry water either? Surely the mizzen helps when reefing? The rig doesn't interfere with the tent, may furl to the mast in place and so not leak all night into the accomodations. The hull is light for hauling up a beach loaded -- PB&F wrote once that a duo beachcruiser should not displace more than about 700lbs. Isn't the bottom braced by shoes? Maybe that could be of heavier stuff with outside plys oriented athwartships?

                              I suppose as always it's horses for courses though. What were the negative rig issues you found to do with singlehanding?

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "kinguq" <kinguq@...> wrote:

                              > It is somewhat overcanvassed and the rig is not convenient to reef.
                              > The rig is also difficult to single hand effectively.
                            • kinguq
                              As I said I find the sprit boomed rig difficult to reef, maybe there is an easier way that I have not found. I believe Michalak changed his to a standing lug
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jul 19, 2010
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                                As I said I find the sprit boomed rig difficult to reef, maybe there is an easier way that I have not found. I believe Michalak changed his to a standing lug without mizzen, possibly for this reason, but I may be wrong about that. Maybe he just had the rig on hand...

                                The boat is difficult to row in any wind because there is a lot of windage on the masts. With the mast down, there is no room to row because the mast is too long to stow.

                                The bottom is braced by 3 shoes but mine still flexes a lot. Again I would advise thicker ply on the bottom, possibly 1/2 or two courses of 1/4.

                                I just find the rig a bit much to handle but that possibly reflects my sailing skills. I did not find that it would self steer readily so it required constant attention, making it difficult to get a drink or eat etc. There are a lot of variables to this, including the positioning of the leeboard which has a big effect.

                                The one time I dumped the boat, I was not able to right it and had to swim for shore. The mast is rather long and once the sail fills with water the boat is very reluctant to come up. Without the leverage afforded by a leeboard or daggerboard the boat would not come up. For this reason alone I would advise against the loose leeboards. In any event they are a bit of a pain as you have to handle the leeward board on every tack unless you want it dragging along, and they are by necessity heavily weighted.

                                Maybe the boat is just the thing for some, but it did not work well for me.

                                Kinguq.

                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Jinni carries sail for light winds. Jim Michalak capsized his about twice through his own fault, and never with the weight of two aboard. He carries little, and I'd guess where he sails he has no need to carry water either? Surely the mizzen helps when reefing? The rig doesn't interfere with the tent, may furl to the mast in place and so not leak all night into the accomodations. The hull is light for hauling up a beach loaded -- PB&F wrote once that a duo beachcruiser should not displace more than about 700lbs. Isn't the bottom braced by shoes? Maybe that could be of heavier stuff with outside plys oriented athwartships?
                                >
                                > I suppose as always it's horses for courses though. What were the negative rig issues you found to do with singlehanding?
                                >
                                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "kinguq" <kinguq@> wrote:
                                >
                                > > It is somewhat overcanvassed and the rig is not convenient to reef.
                                > > The rig is also difficult to single hand effectively.
                                >
                              • apraphett777
                                Hello Robert when you get to Chucks site click on private postings then scroll all the way to the bottom of the page and click on under articles the newsletter
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jul 19, 2010
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                                  Hello Robert when you get to Chucks site click on private postings then scroll all the way to the bottom of the page and click on under articles the newsletter it is in issue #5 HTH
                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <footstepfollower@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I can access the link to Chuck's site, but not the actual Instant Boatbuilder articles. I am quite interested in Jinni after reviewing what I can find. I am suprised more were not built. I would love to read the Michalak article.
                                  >
                                  > I would be torn between Jinni and Michalak's multi chine boats (woobo) as I live on the gulf. Like the two mast setup with mizzen, and the tabernacle. It would be fun to combine the two designs (woobo/Jinni). The flat floorboards of Jinni seem better suited to two campers, and I like the open slot in the rear airbox for oars etc...
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > At Chuck Merrell's site in an Instant Boatbuilder issue there's a two page article by Jim Michalak on his first Jinni, written after sailing for a while. In another issue there's a Jim Michalak layout sketch of plywood sheet use. Here's the index http://www.boatdesign.com/postings/Files/instbb/index.pdf
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Thanks,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Interesting that the pictures lack the leeboards.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > V/R
                                  > > > Chris
                                  > > > On 7/15/2010 10:44 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
                                  > > > > On Thu, Jul 15, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Christopher C. Wetherill
                                  > > > > <wetherillc@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >>
                                  > > > >>
                                  > > > >> Is the MAIB article posted anywhere?
                                  > > > >>
                                  > > > >>
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > There actually was not a Bolger article about Jinni in MAIB. A couple
                                  > > > > 'build' articles.
                                  > > > > Early on there was a Jim Michalak article, and of course the write-up in the
                                  > > > > Common Sense Design catalog, plus the essay from WB.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > http://www.hallman.org/bolger/426/
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Bruce Hallman
                                  http://www.hallman.org/bolger/426/V06-N17%20Jinni%20%20.gif I just discovered and fixed the bug in the copy of the Jim Michalak Jinni article, corrected URL
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jul 19, 2010
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                                    http://www.hallman.org/bolger/426/V06-N17%20Jinni%20%20.gif

                                    I just discovered and fixed the bug in the copy of the Jim Michalak
                                    Jinni article, corrected URL above.

                                    I notice that Jinni is shaped a lot like a JuneBug, except being a cat
                                    yawl instead of a sloop. With those bow and aft flotation chambers,
                                    she should float pretty high on her side if knocked down. Michalak
                                    reports 4 knots speed on a 10 knot wind! The drawing with the
                                    Michalak article shows a side mounted dagger board, instead of
                                    leeboards, so that should give some leverage when righting the hull
                                    from a knockdown.
                                  • adventures_in_astrophotography
                                    ... ...snip... My first sailing boat (and first boat I built) was Bolger s Common Sense Skiff (#571 or #572, maybe) and it had a Solent lug main. It set and
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jul 19, 2010
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                                      > As I said I find the sprit boomed rig difficult to reef, maybe there is an easier way that I have not found.
                                      ...snip...

                                      My first sailing boat (and first boat I built) was Bolger's Common Sense Skiff (#571 or #572, maybe) and it had a Solent lug main. It set and sailed just fine as long as the downhaul and snotter were set up properly, but it was quite a handful to reef. I especially didn't like that the halyard attachment on the yard had to be switched to a point further up. Fortunately, dropping the jib depowered the rig considerably (which is the same thing as saying that hoisting the jib really added a lot of drive), so we never reefed except once for practice.

                                      I thought about Jinni before I bought the plans for the CSS, but Bernie Wolfard told me he thought the design was way over canvassed for anything but very light air, which is always a very temporary situation in CO. I'd still like to build Jinni someday, but I would change the rig to a balanced lug main and probably reduce its area. I won't have a Solent lug again. I'd also go with non-kiting leeboards, but I don't know why everyone calls these Michalak boards - they've been around a long time, including on LFH's Meadowlark, I believe.

                                      Jon
                                    • Bill Howard
                                      Graeme: Many thanks for the link. I now have my own copies of all nine newsletters. A great read and a good resource! Bill Howard Nellysford VA
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jul 19, 2010
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                                        Graeme:

                                        Many thanks for the link.  I now have my own copies of all nine newsletters.  A great read and a good resource!

                                        Bill Howard
                                        Nellysford VA
                                          
                                        On Jul 19, 2010, at 3:01 AM, graeme19121984 wrote:

                                         



                                        Robert,

                                        the IBB articles at Mr Merrell's are pdfs. Do you have a pdf reader such as Acrobat installed? If not, some are available to download for free. Here's the main IBB page http://www.boatdesign.com/postings/pages/instantbb.htm

                                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <footstepfollower@...> wrote:

                                        > I can access the link to Chuck's site, but not the actual Instant Boatbuilder articles.


                                      • graeme19121984
                                        Also, the complete rundown , page 3 here http://www.boatdesign.com/postings/Files/instbb/ib9.pdf & plywood layout at page 9. Bruce is this similar to the MAIB
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jul 19, 2010
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                                          Also, the 'complete rundown', page 3 here http://www.boatdesign.com/postings/Files/instbb/ib9.pdf & plywood layout at page 9.

                                          Bruce is this similar to the MAIB article. I still can't see your http://www.hallman.org/bolger/426/TheSinglehander.png (TheSinglehander.png), http://www.hallman.org/bolger/426/V06-N17%20Jinni%20%20.gif (V06-N17 Jinni .gif), nor http://www.hallman.org/bolger/426/V15-N19%20Jinni.gif (V15-N19 Jinni.gif). I see the rest though, thanks.

                                          Graeme

                                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "apraphett777" <djsaprophet@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hello Robert when you get to Chucks site click on private postings then scroll all the way to the bottom of the page and click on under articles the newsletter it is in issue #5 HTH
                                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <footstepfollower@> wrote:
                                        • graeme19121984
                                          Yes, I see that Michalak recommended the bottom be of thicker ply too. Oilcanning might be eliminated that way, and possibly by fitting a single ply shoe about
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jul 19, 2010
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                                            Yes, I see that Michalak recommended the bottom be of thicker ply too. Oilcanning might be eliminated that way, and possibly by fitting a single ply shoe about 0.5" x ~12"max, similar to that on PB&F's Camper. There's a thoughtful article at the duckworks site about Windsprint where this was also independently recommended in future by a builder of the design. That sort of shoe would also reduce wetted area, and make for better rowing performance...

                                            Thanks very much for sharing your experience. Point taken about the leeboards and righting after a knockdown. Perhaps a line for parbuckling may help? Sometimes righting can be made easier by unshipping the mast first - Michalak gives an indication that he stepped the mast afloat. I'd be interested in what you think of Michalak's idea of installing raised crutches to one side for carrying the struck rig. They would seem to solve some rowing issues. I guess they'd be removable too, but they might introduce other issues like handing the board, or landing a fish. What do you reckon?

                                            I think Jim Michalak found a mizzen unnecessary for his type of camp cruising. He prefers a single sail for even quicker set up, though he does mention setting up his Jinni in 10 minutes - pretty quick. Elsewhere he mentions how easy the balanced lug is to carry, set up, and its ready range of adjusment on the go, but he does say the tall Jinni jib-headed sail is better to windward. Horses for courses?

                                            Graeme

                                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "kinguq" <kinguq@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > As I said I find the sprit boomed rig difficult to reef, maybe there is an easier way that I have not found. I believe Michalak changed his to a standing lug without mizzen, possibly for this reason, but I may be wrong about that. Maybe he just had the rig on hand...
                                            >
                                            > The boat is difficult to row in any wind because there is a lot of windage on the masts. With the mast down, there is no room to row because the mast is too long to stow.
                                            >
                                            > The bottom is braced by 3 shoes but mine still flexes a lot. Again I would advise thicker ply on the bottom, possibly 1/2 or two courses of 1/4.
                                            >
                                            > I just find the rig a bit much to handle but that possibly reflects my sailing skills. I did not find that it would self steer readily so it required constant attention, making it difficult to get a drink or eat etc. There are a lot of variables to this, including the positioning of the leeboard which has a big effect.
                                            >
                                            > The one time I dumped the boat, I was not able to right it and had to swim for shore. The mast is rather long and once the sail fills with water the boat is very reluctant to come up. Without the leverage afforded by a leeboard or daggerboard the boat would not come up. For this reason alone I would advise against the loose leeboards. In any event they are a bit of a pain as you have to handle the leeward board on every tack unless you want it dragging along, and they are by necessity heavily weighted.
                                            >
                                            > Maybe the boat is just the thing for some, but it did not work well for me.
                                            >
                                            > Kinguq.
                                            >
                                            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Jinni carries sail for light winds. Jim Michalak capsized his about twice through his own fault, and never with the weight of two aboard. He carries little, and I'd guess where he sails he has no need to carry water either? Surely the mizzen helps when reefing? The rig doesn't interfere with the tent, may furl to the mast in place and so not leak all night into the accomodations. The hull is light for hauling up a beach loaded -- PB&F wrote once that a duo beachcruiser should not displace more than about 700lbs. Isn't the bottom braced by shoes? Maybe that could be of heavier stuff with outside plys oriented athwartships?
                                            > >
                                            > > I suppose as always it's horses for courses though. What were the negative rig issues you found to do with singlehanding?
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "kinguq" <kinguq@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > > It is somewhat overcanvassed and the rig is not convenient to reef.
                                            > > > The rig is also difficult to single hand effectively.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • Bruce Hallman
                                            ... What is wrong with oil canning? For instance, skin on frame boats float fine, and they have light weight. I noticed in one of those IBB pdf s that PCB is
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jul 19, 2010
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                                              > Oilcanning might be eliminated that way,

                                              What is wrong with oil canning? For instance, skin on frame boats
                                              float fine, and they have light weight. I noticed in one of those IBB
                                              pdf's that PCB is on record asking a question along the lines of: Why
                                              double strength everything? Stiffness and strength are not the same
                                              thing.
                                            • kinguq
                                              ... I have a skin on frame kayak, and it does not actually oilcan because there are lots of stringers and the skin is stretched tightly. The entire boat does
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jul 20, 2010
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                                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > Oilcanning might be eliminated that way,
                                                >
                                                > What is wrong with oil canning? For instance, skin on frame boats
                                                > float fine, and they have light weight. I noticed in one of those IBB
                                                > pdf's that PCB is on record asking a question along the lines of: Why
                                                > double strength everything? Stiffness and strength are not the same
                                                > thing.
                                                >

                                                I have a skin on frame kayak, and it does not actually "oilcan" because there are lots of stringers and the skin is stretched tightly. The entire boat does flex however.

                                                I think there is an issue with material fatigue with oilcanning- the plywood is going to weaken in some areas due to the constant flexing. Also, although I don't know how serious this is, the oilcanning changes the shape of the hull, which must have some implications for its performance. Finally, at least for me, it is stressful to watch, which is not something I want when boating.

                                                Kinguq.
                                              • Patrick Crockett
                                                I sort of enjoy watching the ocean flow by under my Windsprint s bottom, flexing the plywood as it goes. I suppose there is some loss of efficiency (it must
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Jul 20, 2010
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                                                  I sort of enjoy watching the ocean flow by under my Windsprint's bottom,
                                                  flexing the plywood as it goes. I suppose there is some loss of
                                                  efficiency (it must take energy to flex the wood, energy that might
                                                  otherwise be used to push the boat forward), but it might be small in
                                                  comparison with the loss of efficiency due to a boat that's twice as heavy.

                                                  Patrick

                                                  On 07/19/2010 11:48 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
                                                  >> Oilcanning might be eliminated that way,
                                                  >>
                                                  > What is wrong with oil canning? For instance, skin on frame boats
                                                  > float fine, and they have light weight. I noticed in one of those IBB
                                                  > pdf's that PCB is on record asking a question along the lines of: Why
                                                  > double strength everything? Stiffness and strength are not the same
                                                  > thing.
                                                  >
                                                • Susanne@comcast.net
                                                  Hello all. Light-weight construction attributes of designs are frequently wish-list driven, based on limited materials use/ lower cost, expectations of light
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Jul 20, 2010
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                                                    Hello all.
                                                        Light-weight construction attributes of designs are frequently wish-list driven, based on limited materials use/ lower cost, expectations of light car-top- or trailer-weight, and relative performance-gains.  

                                                    With a few exceptions for very light and intermittent use, in hulls that appear to show too much of such flexibility, I would propose to address the issue with resonably simple upgrades:
                                                    1.  In displacement speed hulls, for instance, locally doubling the skin-thickness will not hurt performance or pocket-book noticeably.
                                                    2.  In weight-sensitive hulls adding inside a batten or two across that area should 'calm' things down a bit. 
                                                    3.  Or doubling the inside of the area's skin with a 1" layer of pink/blue foam, in turn protected against toes and elbows by an 1/8" plywood-layer, (with or without cloth) will add stiffness, buoyancy/safety, and certain thermal advantages in colder weather with limited cost and weight-increases.

                                                    With these and likely more minor upgrades perfectly doable to a reasonable budget, I would not decide against a design based on possible/actual 'oil-canning' concerns.  When the occasion for a Design-Upgrade arose, in earlier years Phil alone, and then later both of us often integrated such reinforcements into a design when and where deemed appropriate; e.g. see #422 MICRO and #496 BIRDWATCHER-II.

                                                    Susanne Altenburger, PB&F  
                                                     
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 9:06 AM
                                                    Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Jinni #426

                                                     

                                                    I sort of enjoy watching the ocean flow by under my Windsprint's bottom,
                                                    flexing the plywood as it goes. I suppose there is some loss of
                                                    efficiency (it must take energy to flex the wood, energy that might
                                                    otherwise be used to push the boat forward), but it might be small in
                                                    comparison with the loss of efficiency due to a boat that's twice as heavy.

                                                    Patrick

                                                    On 07/19/2010 11:48 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:
                                                    >> Oilcanning might be eliminated that way,
                                                    >>
                                                    > What is wrong with oil canning? For instance, skin on frame boats
                                                    > float fine, and they have light weight. I noticed in one of those IBB
                                                    > pdf's that PCB is on record asking a question along the lines of: Why
                                                    > double strength everything? Stiffness and strength are not the same
                                                    > thing.
                                                    >

                                                  • apraphett777
                                                    I always heard if you want to fly you have to put wings on her :)
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Jul 20, 2010
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                                                      I always heard if you want to fly you have to put wings on her :)

                                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography" <jon@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > > As I said I find the sprit boomed rig difficult to reef, maybe there is an easier way that I have not found.
                                                      > ...snip...
                                                      >
                                                      > My first sailing boat (and first boat I built) was Bolger's Common Sense Skiff (#571 or #572, maybe) and it had a Solent lug main. It set and sailed just fine as long as the downhaul and snotter were set up properly, but it was quite a handful to reef. I especially didn't like that the halyard attachment on the yard had to be switched to a point further up. Fortunately, dropping the jib depowered the rig considerably (which is the same thing as saying that hoisting the jib really added a lot of drive), so we never reefed except once for practice.
                                                      >
                                                      > I thought about Jinni before I bought the plans for the CSS, but Bernie Wolfard told me he thought the design was way over canvassed for anything but very light air, which is always a very temporary situation in CO. I'd still like to build Jinni someday, but I would change the rig to a balanced lug main and probably reduce its area. I won't have a Solent lug again. I'd also go with non-kiting leeboards, but I don't know why everyone calls these Michalak boards - they've been around a long time, including on LFH's Meadowlark, I believe.
                                                      >
                                                      > Jon
                                                      >
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