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Re: [bolger] Re: Walkure

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  • Michael Wagner
    Don t know about the Jessie Cooper, but the double bunk in the AS-29 is a lot less claustrophobic than a typical V-berth. Except for the footwell intrusion,
    Message 1 of 23 , May 4, 2010
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      Don't know about the Jessie Cooper, but the double bunk in the AS-29 is a lot less claustrophobic than a typical V-berth. Except for the footwell intrusion, there's plenty of headroom forward of the bookshelves. One can comfortably sit up to read a book, watch TV, etc.

      As for sleeping under way, we usually take our off watch naps on the lee settee. The motion is easier and you don't end up with your head downhill like you can in the thwart-ship aft bunk.

      --- On Mon, 5/3/10, creditscorenz <creditscorenz@...> wrote:

      From: creditscorenz <creditscorenz@...>
      Subject: [bolger] Re: Walkure
      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 8:08 PM

       



      Just uploaded a picture of Marc Lindgren's AS29 Zephyr (he's sold it now I believe) into Photos/AS29 pictures. A great shot of an AS29 under sail in a decent breeze.

      I have thought about building either an AS29 or Jessie Cooper many times, but I keep returning to the Jessie Cooper because it seems to me to be the better sea boat, being much simpler all round, with it's balanced lug rig, larger rudder behind a skeg, deep narrow dagger board, the pointy bow and decent bulwarks in the cockpit rather than the exposed seats of the AS29. The only thing I'm missing is the four berths. Have heard somewhere of a Jessie Cooper being knocked down and not self-righting and since then people recommend 1000lbs ballast instead of the 400lbs specified.

      Also wondering whether the double beds in both the AS29 and Jessie Cooper are claustrophobic. In rough conditions you'd have to harness yourself in to the bed or risk injury through being thrown about.


    • graeme19121984
      ... That event was reputedly in Oz. I think it a rumour. There s a certain party who s an agent for Kirby s NIS plans... Same bloke crossed Bass Straight a
      Message 2 of 23 , May 9, 2010
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        > heard somewhere of a Jessie Cooper being knocked down and not self-
        > righting

        That event was reputedly in Oz. I think it a rumour.

        There's a certain party who's an agent for Kirby's NIS plans...

        Same bloke crossed Bass Straight a year ago in his Nis23, and put considerable emphasis in how much better was their crossing than the Martha Jane that crossed decades ago... (Ahem, the MJ did suffer a knock down, from which it recovered, but unmentioned was that it hadn't set out on a carefully planned crossing. It was doing a mainland coastal jaunt well to the west of Bass Straight when furious weather set in for a lengthy stay. It got blown out into the Southern Ocean and eastward quite a ways into the treacherous Bass Straight thence south-west onto the Tassie north coast. Some long, wild, and terrible ride! They later crossed again to the north.

        Graeme
      • daschultz2000
        What is OZ? There was a Martha Jane (original version) that was knocked down down under . I believe it turned turtle. That event caused PBF to to make the
        Message 3 of 23 , May 10, 2010
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          What is OZ?

          There was a Martha Jane (original version) that was knocked down "down under". I believe it turned turtle. That event caused PBF to to make the changes, with sponsons and the cabin to MJ. I think that was all documented by Bolger, perhaps in MAIB.

          Could the MJ event be confused into a Jesse Cooper event?

          Don
        • Joe T
          My guess -- OZ is code for OZtralia. Down under pronunciation of the a is broader than I am accustomed to. Joe T
          Message 4 of 23 , May 10, 2010
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            My guess -- OZ is code for OZtralia. Down under pronunciation of the "a" is broader than I am accustomed to.

            Joe T

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
            >
            > What is OZ?
            >
            > Don
            >
          • creditscorenz
            No. It was definitely a Jessie Cooper. Here is the post copied verbatim from http://forum.woodenboat.com (The WoodenBoat Forum) under the thread How do Bolger
            Message 5 of 23 , May 11, 2010
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              No. It was definitely a Jessie Cooper. Here is the post copied verbatim from http://forum.woodenboat.com (The WoodenBoat Forum) under the thread "How do Bolger boats really sail?" by somebody called Andy B.

              I have a traditional gaff cutter but appreciate Bolger's contribution to boat design. Nonetheless I offer this cautionary tale. A friend built a 26' Jesse Cooper. As designed, it had a low ballast ratio of 960 lbs. on a displacement of about 6000 lbs. Not long after launching my friend was tacking to windward up a channel when caught aback by a gust: the boat capsized. It remained on its side, until a motor cruiser pulled it upright via a line attached to the boom gallows.

              I joined my rather traumatized friend shortly after and we loaded sand bags into cupboards either side, bringing the ballast up to about a ton. The sand was later replaced by lead under the sole. I did some coastal legs on the boat along the NSW coast (Australian east coast), but was always wary of being caught out in rough conditions.

              Stability apart, the boat felt like it should have sailed faster than it did, but I couldn't work out why it didn't. It had leeboards (fairly crudely shaped) rather than the designed daggerboard, but I don't think this alone would account for the lack of performance.

              I also sailed on an AS29 in protected waters; the boat felt very dinghy-like compared to my heavier displacement vessel, heeling readily to wind gusts, but was also very responsive. I envied the boat's ability to dry out upright on the sandbanks. The flat bottom proved to have its drawback when it would slap in a chop when at anchor.

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > What is OZ?
              >
              > There was a Martha Jane (original version) that was knocked down "down under". I believe it turned turtle. That event caused PBF to to make the changes, with sponsons and the cabin to MJ. I think that was all documented by Bolger, perhaps in MAIB.
              >
              > Could the MJ event be confused into a Jesse Cooper event?
              >
              > Don
              >
            • Fred Schumacher
              On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 5:05 AM, creditscorenz ... There are always risks involved in setting out on water. There is a tension between the need to stay
              Message 6 of 23 , May 11, 2010
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                On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 5:05 AM, creditscorenz <creditscorenz@...> wrote:
                 

                Not long after launching my friend was tacking to windward up a channel when caught aback by a gust: the boat capsized. It remained on its side, until a motor cruiser pulled it upright via a line attached to the boom gallows.

                I joined my rather traumatized friend shortly after and we loaded sand bags into cupboards either side, bringing the ballast up to about a ton. The sand was later replaced by lead under the sole. I did some coastal legs on the boat along the NSW coast (Australian east coast), but was always wary of being caught out in rough conditions.


                There are always risks involved  in setting out on water. There is a tension between the need to stay upright and between having so much ballast the boat can sink. There was an article a few years ago in Wooden Boat of a  famous Colin Archer redningskoite sinking suddenly. This is considered one of the safest boats afloat. The Jesse Cooper described above sounds like what happened to a car-carrying RORO ship in the Gulf of Alaska a few years ago. I was struck by how much that ship looked like a Bolger design. The high sides kept it afloat, even though it was lying on its side, like the Jesse Cooper, and the ship was ultimately salvaged. There are varying degrees of disaster.

                fred s.

              • loosemoosefilmworks
                Having sailed our Jessie Cooper (Loose Moose) some thousands of miles including two crossings of the Bay of Biscay (not known for its mildness) I seriously
                Message 7 of 23 , May 11, 2010
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                  Having sailed our Jessie Cooper (Loose Moose) some thousands of miles including two crossings of the Bay of Biscay (not known for its mildness) I seriously question the report of the Jessie Cooper for a variety of reasons.

                  First of all any blame to the design or designer goes right out the window when the boat is not built to plans... Personally I have no issue changing a design but the minute it is done it is no longer a Jessie Cooper. Off hand if the builder in question changed the dagger board to leeboard what else was was changed?

                  While it may be splitting hairs from the account the boat did not capsize it was knocked down and there really is a big difference between the two. Just about any modern sailboat these days can be knocked down and in this case there are quite a few possible causes as to why it stayed on its side and I doubt being under ballasted was one of them. If I were to guess I'd say more like ballast that was not properly stowed and bolted through as the design calls for.

                  We found our Jessie Cooper to be surprisingly fast, weatherly and well behaved in big seas. Certainly a boat if built and sailed correctly able to take care of those aboard.

                  Bob

                  http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
                  http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
                  http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
                • graeme19121984
                  ... oz is derived from a very successful paradigm, and, indeed, law, and society changing magazine in London, UK, in the 1960s. The publishers and most
                  Message 8 of 23 , May 12, 2010
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                    > What is OZ?

                    'oz' is derived from a very successful paradigm, and, indeed, law, and society changing magazine in London, UK, in the 1960s. The publishers and most contributors were expat Aussies. The 'aus' in 'Aussie', or 'Australian' in widespread Australian announciation sounds very much like 'oz'. There were other connections to 'Oz' as in Judy Garland, and levels beyond, that escaspe me at this remove. I was younger then.

                    The main, or most notorious force within and behind Oz the mag still writes provocatively, if now morphed 180 into someone having somewhat conservative views (trust noone over 30, eh?) for a Melbournian.

                    Geoffry Robinson, the young expat lawer, having been handed a hopeless case, turned that around, made Oz unstoppable, and in changing the law changed the times. (Where would we be without the later Beatles freedom of expression, for example?) He has gone on, and continues to do many more significant things in the arena of international human rights, international justice, and the calling to account of war criminals from our time.

                    > Could the MJ event be confused into a Jesse Cooper event?

                    No.

                    Delve into these archives. One MJ event, IIRC on one of the Great Lakes, snowballed. Note again the vested interests. The bloke in Oz, mentioned earlier, commenced the DFWB ripoff of PB&F plan sales; one, in the US, would like to.

                    Graeme
                  • graeme19121984
                    ... Excellent guess.
                    Message 9 of 23 , May 12, 2010
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                      > My guess -- OZ is code for OZtralia. Down under pronunciation of the "a" is broader than I am accustomed to.

                      Excellent guess.
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