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Re: Walkure

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  • loosemoosefilmworks
    ... The double berth in the Jessie Cooper is actually a very good sea berth. The trick is simply that you swap your orientation from tack to tack. The berth in
    Message 1 of 23 , May 3, 2010
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      > Also wondering whether the double beds in both the AS29 and Jessie Cooper are claustrophobic. In rough conditions you'd have to harness yourself in to the bed or risk injury through being thrown about.
      >

      The double berth in the Jessie Cooper is actually a very good sea berth. The trick is simply that you swap your orientation from tack to tack. The berth in the Jessie Cooper was much better for rough weather than the berth in our Loose Moose 2.

      Bob

      http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
      http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
      http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
    • eric14850
      Yes, this is the dilemma. What is big enough, but not too big. ROGUE is big enough for me, and for a couple for a few months at a time. Longer??? A real
      Message 2 of 23 , May 3, 2010
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        Yes, this is the dilemma. What is big enough, but not too big.

        ROGUE is big enough for me, and for a couple for a few months at a time. Longer??? A real stove, and maybe a freezer would be nice. And room to entertain, an office, surf board, downhill skis and clothes, diving gear, bikes, kayaks, a good row boat, and occasional visitors... and now we are up to about fifty feet. I might do it if someone bought ROGUE for what ROGUE's replacement cost would be, but for now I am single, and I can enter a lot of ports and buy a bicycle in every one and put guest up in a fancy villa for a lot less than the cost of a fifty foot boat, but it would be so nice to have all that room, speed, and comfort, but...



        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "otter55806" <otter55806@...> wrote:
        >
        > This makes me think back to the late 70's when I was trying to decide which boat to build and, amoung others, read Colvin's boooks. He wrote about how foolish it is for people to have boats bigger than they need for themselves. I can't remember exactly, but he said something to the effect that you only have that kind of company 10% of the time, but are stuck with the bigger boat all the time for just that 10%. The bigger boat cost more to start with (usually) needs a lot more square feet of sail, which sells by the square foot, a bigger engine needing more fuel, marinas rent by the foot, a lot more boat to maintaine which cost more even if you maintain it yourself. Unless you are independetly wealthy why try to have ANYTHING bigger than YOU need. This is true for homes also. If friends want to visit they can stay in a motel at night and go day sailing with you as all boats can daysail a lot more than they can sleep.
        > I live in a one bedroom apt. If friends aren't Ok with sleeping on a pad on the living room floor and need a room of their own, they can go to the motel.
        > I decided a Robert's Spray 28 was all I needed, this was an era when almost all the well known world cruisers were on boats of 30' or less. When people also lived in homes half the size of the ones people NEED nowdays. I had an aquaintance in a boatbuilding club who had the dream of living aboard. After listening to his wife he started out thinking 40 feet for the family of four, which I thought was already bigger than needed. Then the wife started in about needing this or that and it became 50 feet. At which point she said that was too big to handle with just the two of them (the kids being too young)so they needed room for crew. So he started building a 60 footer. I lost track and don't know if he ever finished it or not and think the whole thing was that his wife figured that now the project was so big she would never have to go:) By the time such a huge boat would be finished the kids would now be teenagers and would not want to go away from school and their friends and now the boat would probably be too big.
        > Bob
        >
        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Michael Wagner <willers32@> wrote:
        > >
        > > I estimate Walkure's displacement at about 8,000 # without trailer. I do not own a car or truck and do not intend to ever do so again. To have a custom trailer built is beyond my budget at this time. If someone in the family is willing & able, that is a good solution.
        > >
        > > As to the ocean ability of the AS-29, I'm sure it can be done, but then people cross oceans in rowboats. There is a certain level of insanity required to do that. Yeah, maybe compared to other boats this size, she'd be OK, but I would t take a boat this size across an ocean. In my opinion, the AS-29 is simply not an ocean capable boat. The boat does not handle large seas well at all. The blunt bow causes the boat to just about stop dead when heading into anything bigger than a 3 or 4 foot sea, and the flat bottom/shallow rudder combination will not track at all in a following sea. The new skeg helps, but the boat just won't handle well in rough seas. Also, for longer passages, a bit more speed would be handy.
        > >
        > > I once had a lengthy discussion with Susanne and Phil about taking an AS-29 and modifying it for ocean travel. Susanne had some great ideas for adding on a pointy forward section and reinforcing the hull, adding more flotation, etc. Apparently she also thought the AS-29, as it exists, is not really a good ocean boat.
        > >
        > > I've made several significant crossings in the Gulf of Mexico and that is the limit of what I think this boat is capable of. She's a great boat for inland rivers, lakes, the ICW and modest coastal trips. She's the perfect boat for gunkholing in the Keys. We love the boat, but just don't feel comfortable making longer passages. The "new" boat is just over twice the displacement, carries 7,000# ballast, draws 9' with the board down. Even then, I wouldn't cross the Pacific. As I said, there is just a certain level of insanity needed and I'm not there yet.
        > >
        > > As for living space, the AS-29 is adequate for two people. Bev and I have been quite comfortable for almost 4 years. But as we expand our horizons and our circle of friends & family who visit, it just gets too cramped with 4 people on board. The "new" boat has two staterooms so having two couples on board is a lot more comfortable than on the 29.
        > >
        > > --- On Sun, 5/2/10, eric14850 <eric14850@> wrote:
        > >
        > > From: eric14850 <eric14850@>
        > > Subject: [bolger] Re: Walkure
        > > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        > > Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 9:04 AM
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >  
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Mike,
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > An AS-29 weighs what? ROGUE and trailer are 8,000 lbs. I tow ROGUE with a pickup truck. I can manage to launch ROGUE at deep water launch ramps (4') by using a tongue extender. Parked in the back yard, there are no storage fees, and it is easy to keep an eye on the winter cover. That will cut down on some of the expenses if your family decides to take over your boat.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Quoting you, "we are now talking about cruises to the Carribean, Mexico,
        > >
        > > Belize, Panama, etc. and this boat is just a wee bit too small, light and flat bottomed for that kind of cruising." ROGUE has a nearly identical interior as an AS-29 so I understand being too small for extensive cruising/permanent live aboard. Why is light and flat bottomed a problem? I would expect the AS-29 to be as good an ocean boat as any boat of similar size. Please explain.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Eric
        > >
        >
      • Michael Wagner
        Don t forget, I m getting the Irwin for the cost of a new floor and some elbow grease. ... From: eric14850 Subject: [bolger] Re: Walkure
        Message 3 of 23 , May 4, 2010
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          Don't forget, I'm getting the Irwin for the cost of a new floor and some elbow grease.

          --- On Mon, 5/3/10, eric14850 <eric14850@...> wrote:

          From: eric14850 <eric14850@...>
          Subject: [bolger] Re: Walkure
          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 11:22 PM

           

          Yes, this is the dilemma. What is big enough, but not too big.

          ROGUE is big enough for me, and for a couple for a few months at a time. Longer??? A real stove, and maybe a freezer would be nice. And room to entertain, an office, surf board, downhill skis and clothes, diving gear, bikes, kayaks, a good row boat, and occasional visitors... and now we are up to about fifty feet. I might do it if someone bought ROGUE for what ROGUE's replacement cost would be, but for now I am single, and I can enter a lot of ports and buy a bicycle in every one and put guest up in a fancy villa for a lot less than the cost of a fifty foot boat, but it would be so nice to have all that room, speed, and comfort, but...

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, "otter55806" <otter55806@ ...> wrote:
          >
          > This makes me think back to the late 70's when I was trying to decide which boat to build and, amoung others, read Colvin's boooks. He wrote about how foolish it is for people to have boats bigger than they need for themselves. I can't remember exactly, but he said something to the effect that you only have that kind of company 10% of the time, but are stuck with the bigger boat all the time for just that 10%. The bigger boat cost more to start with (usually) needs a lot more square feet of sail, which sells by the square foot, a bigger engine needing more fuel, marinas rent by the foot, a lot more boat to maintaine which cost more even if you maintain it yourself. Unless you are independetly wealthy why try to have ANYTHING bigger than YOU need. This is true for homes also. If friends want to visit they can stay in a motel at night and go day sailing with you as all boats can daysail a lot more than they can sleep.
          > I live in a one bedroom apt. If friends aren't Ok with sleeping on a pad on the living room floor and need a room of their own, they can go to the motel.
          > I decided a Robert's Spray 28 was all I needed, this was an era when almost all the well known world cruisers were on boats of 30' or less. When people also lived in homes half the size of the ones people NEED nowdays. I had an aquaintance in a boatbuilding club who had the dream of living aboard. After listening to his wife he started out thinking 40 feet for the family of four, which I thought was already bigger than needed. Then the wife started in about needing this or that and it became 50 feet. At which point she said that was too big to handle with just the two of them (the kids being too young)so they needed room for crew. So he started building a 60 footer. I lost track and don't know if he ever finished it or not and think the whole thing was that his wife figured that now the project was so big she would never have to go:) By the time such a huge boat would be finished the kids would now be teenagers and would not want to go away from school and their friends and now the boat would probably be too big.
          > Bob
          >
          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, Michael Wagner <willers32@> wrote:
          > >
          > > I estimate Walkure's displacement at about 8,000 # without trailer. I do not own a car or truck and do not intend to ever do so again. To have a custom trailer built is beyond my budget at this time. If someone in the family is willing & able, that is a good solution.
          > >
          > > As to the ocean ability of the AS-29, I'm sure it can be done, but then people cross oceans in rowboats. There is a certain level of insanity required to do that. Yeah, maybe compared to other boats this size, she'd be OK, but I would t take a boat this size across an ocean. In my opinion, the AS-29 is simply not an ocean capable boat. The boat does not handle large seas well at all. The blunt bow causes the boat to just about stop dead when heading into anything bigger than a 3 or 4 foot sea, and the flat bottom/shallow rudder combination will not track at all in a following sea. The new skeg helps, but the boat just won't handle well in rough seas. Also, for longer passages, a bit more speed would be handy.
          > >
          > > I once had a lengthy discussion with Susanne and Phil about taking an AS-29 and modifying it for ocean travel. Susanne had some great ideas for adding on a pointy forward section and reinforcing the hull, adding more flotation, etc. Apparently she also thought the AS-29, as it exists, is not really a good ocean boat.
          > >
          > > I've made several significant crossings in the Gulf of Mexico and that is the limit of what I think this boat is capable of. She's a great boat for inland rivers, lakes, the ICW and modest coastal trips. She's the perfect boat for gunkholing in the Keys. We love the boat, but just don't feel comfortable making longer passages. The "new" boat is just over twice the displacement, carries 7,000# ballast, draws 9' with the board down. Even then, I wouldn't cross the Pacific. As I said, there is just a certain level of insanity needed and I'm not there yet.
          > >
          > > As for living space, the AS-29 is adequate for two people. Bev and I have been quite comfortable for almost 4 years. But as we expand our horizons and our circle of friends & family who visit, it just gets too cramped with 4 people on board. The "new" boat has two staterooms so having two couples on board is a lot more comfortable than on the 29.
          > >
          > > --- On Sun, 5/2/10, eric14850 <eric14850@> wrote:
          > >
          > > From: eric14850 <eric14850@>
          > > Subject: [bolger] Re: Walkure
          > > To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
          > > Date: Sunday, May 2, 2010, 9:04 AM
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >  
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Mike,
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > An AS-29 weighs what? ROGUE and trailer are 8,000 lbs. I tow ROGUE with a pickup truck. I can manage to launch ROGUE at deep water launch ramps (4') by using a tongue extender. Parked in the back yard, there are no storage fees, and it is easy to keep an eye on the winter cover. That will cut down on some of the expenses if your family decides to take over your boat.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Quoting you, "we are now talking about cruises to the Carribean, Mexico,
          > >
          > > Belize, Panama, etc. and this boat is just a wee bit too small, light and flat bottomed for that kind of cruising." ROGUE has a nearly identical interior as an AS-29 so I understand being too small for extensive cruising/permanent live aboard. Why is light and flat bottomed a problem? I would expect the AS-29 to be as good an ocean boat as any boat of similar size. Please explain.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Eric
          > >
          >


        • Michael Wagner
          Don t know about the Jessie Cooper, but the double bunk in the AS-29 is a lot less claustrophobic than a typical V-berth. Except for the footwell intrusion,
          Message 4 of 23 , May 4, 2010
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            Don't know about the Jessie Cooper, but the double bunk in the AS-29 is a lot less claustrophobic than a typical V-berth. Except for the footwell intrusion, there's plenty of headroom forward of the bookshelves. One can comfortably sit up to read a book, watch TV, etc.

            As for sleeping under way, we usually take our off watch naps on the lee settee. The motion is easier and you don't end up with your head downhill like you can in the thwart-ship aft bunk.

            --- On Mon, 5/3/10, creditscorenz <creditscorenz@...> wrote:

            From: creditscorenz <creditscorenz@...>
            Subject: [bolger] Re: Walkure
            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 8:08 PM

             



            Just uploaded a picture of Marc Lindgren's AS29 Zephyr (he's sold it now I believe) into Photos/AS29 pictures. A great shot of an AS29 under sail in a decent breeze.

            I have thought about building either an AS29 or Jessie Cooper many times, but I keep returning to the Jessie Cooper because it seems to me to be the better sea boat, being much simpler all round, with it's balanced lug rig, larger rudder behind a skeg, deep narrow dagger board, the pointy bow and decent bulwarks in the cockpit rather than the exposed seats of the AS29. The only thing I'm missing is the four berths. Have heard somewhere of a Jessie Cooper being knocked down and not self-righting and since then people recommend 1000lbs ballast instead of the 400lbs specified.

            Also wondering whether the double beds in both the AS29 and Jessie Cooper are claustrophobic. In rough conditions you'd have to harness yourself in to the bed or risk injury through being thrown about.


          • graeme19121984
            ... That event was reputedly in Oz. I think it a rumour. There s a certain party who s an agent for Kirby s NIS plans... Same bloke crossed Bass Straight a
            Message 5 of 23 , May 9, 2010
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              > heard somewhere of a Jessie Cooper being knocked down and not self-
              > righting

              That event was reputedly in Oz. I think it a rumour.

              There's a certain party who's an agent for Kirby's NIS plans...

              Same bloke crossed Bass Straight a year ago in his Nis23, and put considerable emphasis in how much better was their crossing than the Martha Jane that crossed decades ago... (Ahem, the MJ did suffer a knock down, from which it recovered, but unmentioned was that it hadn't set out on a carefully planned crossing. It was doing a mainland coastal jaunt well to the west of Bass Straight when furious weather set in for a lengthy stay. It got blown out into the Southern Ocean and eastward quite a ways into the treacherous Bass Straight thence south-west onto the Tassie north coast. Some long, wild, and terrible ride! They later crossed again to the north.

              Graeme
            • daschultz2000
              What is OZ? There was a Martha Jane (original version) that was knocked down down under . I believe it turned turtle. That event caused PBF to to make the
              Message 6 of 23 , May 10, 2010
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                What is OZ?

                There was a Martha Jane (original version) that was knocked down "down under". I believe it turned turtle. That event caused PBF to to make the changes, with sponsons and the cabin to MJ. I think that was all documented by Bolger, perhaps in MAIB.

                Could the MJ event be confused into a Jesse Cooper event?

                Don
              • Joe T
                My guess -- OZ is code for OZtralia. Down under pronunciation of the a is broader than I am accustomed to. Joe T
                Message 7 of 23 , May 10, 2010
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                  My guess -- OZ is code for OZtralia. Down under pronunciation of the "a" is broader than I am accustomed to.

                  Joe T

                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > What is OZ?
                  >
                  > Don
                  >
                • creditscorenz
                  No. It was definitely a Jessie Cooper. Here is the post copied verbatim from http://forum.woodenboat.com (The WoodenBoat Forum) under the thread How do Bolger
                  Message 8 of 23 , May 11, 2010
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                    No. It was definitely a Jessie Cooper. Here is the post copied verbatim from http://forum.woodenboat.com (The WoodenBoat Forum) under the thread "How do Bolger boats really sail?" by somebody called Andy B.

                    I have a traditional gaff cutter but appreciate Bolger's contribution to boat design. Nonetheless I offer this cautionary tale. A friend built a 26' Jesse Cooper. As designed, it had a low ballast ratio of 960 lbs. on a displacement of about 6000 lbs. Not long after launching my friend was tacking to windward up a channel when caught aback by a gust: the boat capsized. It remained on its side, until a motor cruiser pulled it upright via a line attached to the boom gallows.

                    I joined my rather traumatized friend shortly after and we loaded sand bags into cupboards either side, bringing the ballast up to about a ton. The sand was later replaced by lead under the sole. I did some coastal legs on the boat along the NSW coast (Australian east coast), but was always wary of being caught out in rough conditions.

                    Stability apart, the boat felt like it should have sailed faster than it did, but I couldn't work out why it didn't. It had leeboards (fairly crudely shaped) rather than the designed daggerboard, but I don't think this alone would account for the lack of performance.

                    I also sailed on an AS29 in protected waters; the boat felt very dinghy-like compared to my heavier displacement vessel, heeling readily to wind gusts, but was also very responsive. I envied the boat's ability to dry out upright on the sandbanks. The flat bottom proved to have its drawback when it would slap in a chop when at anchor.

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "daschultz2000" <daschultz8275@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > What is OZ?
                    >
                    > There was a Martha Jane (original version) that was knocked down "down under". I believe it turned turtle. That event caused PBF to to make the changes, with sponsons and the cabin to MJ. I think that was all documented by Bolger, perhaps in MAIB.
                    >
                    > Could the MJ event be confused into a Jesse Cooper event?
                    >
                    > Don
                    >
                  • Fred Schumacher
                    On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 5:05 AM, creditscorenz ... There are always risks involved in setting out on water. There is a tension between the need to stay
                    Message 9 of 23 , May 11, 2010
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                      On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 5:05 AM, creditscorenz <creditscorenz@...> wrote:
                       

                      Not long after launching my friend was tacking to windward up a channel when caught aback by a gust: the boat capsized. It remained on its side, until a motor cruiser pulled it upright via a line attached to the boom gallows.

                      I joined my rather traumatized friend shortly after and we loaded sand bags into cupboards either side, bringing the ballast up to about a ton. The sand was later replaced by lead under the sole. I did some coastal legs on the boat along the NSW coast (Australian east coast), but was always wary of being caught out in rough conditions.


                      There are always risks involved  in setting out on water. There is a tension between the need to stay upright and between having so much ballast the boat can sink. There was an article a few years ago in Wooden Boat of a  famous Colin Archer redningskoite sinking suddenly. This is considered one of the safest boats afloat. The Jesse Cooper described above sounds like what happened to a car-carrying RORO ship in the Gulf of Alaska a few years ago. I was struck by how much that ship looked like a Bolger design. The high sides kept it afloat, even though it was lying on its side, like the Jesse Cooper, and the ship was ultimately salvaged. There are varying degrees of disaster.

                      fred s.

                    • loosemoosefilmworks
                      Having sailed our Jessie Cooper (Loose Moose) some thousands of miles including two crossings of the Bay of Biscay (not known for its mildness) I seriously
                      Message 10 of 23 , May 11, 2010
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                        Having sailed our Jessie Cooper (Loose Moose) some thousands of miles including two crossings of the Bay of Biscay (not known for its mildness) I seriously question the report of the Jessie Cooper for a variety of reasons.

                        First of all any blame to the design or designer goes right out the window when the boat is not built to plans... Personally I have no issue changing a design but the minute it is done it is no longer a Jessie Cooper. Off hand if the builder in question changed the dagger board to leeboard what else was was changed?

                        While it may be splitting hairs from the account the boat did not capsize it was knocked down and there really is a big difference between the two. Just about any modern sailboat these days can be knocked down and in this case there are quite a few possible causes as to why it stayed on its side and I doubt being under ballasted was one of them. If I were to guess I'd say more like ballast that was not properly stowed and bolted through as the design calls for.

                        We found our Jessie Cooper to be surprisingly fast, weatherly and well behaved in big seas. Certainly a boat if built and sailed correctly able to take care of those aboard.

                        Bob

                        http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
                        http://fishingundersail.blogspot.com/
                        http://islandgourmand.blogspot.com/
                      • graeme19121984
                        ... oz is derived from a very successful paradigm, and, indeed, law, and society changing magazine in London, UK, in the 1960s. The publishers and most
                        Message 11 of 23 , May 12, 2010
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                          > What is OZ?

                          'oz' is derived from a very successful paradigm, and, indeed, law, and society changing magazine in London, UK, in the 1960s. The publishers and most contributors were expat Aussies. The 'aus' in 'Aussie', or 'Australian' in widespread Australian announciation sounds very much like 'oz'. There were other connections to 'Oz' as in Judy Garland, and levels beyond, that escaspe me at this remove. I was younger then.

                          The main, or most notorious force within and behind Oz the mag still writes provocatively, if now morphed 180 into someone having somewhat conservative views (trust noone over 30, eh?) for a Melbournian.

                          Geoffry Robinson, the young expat lawer, having been handed a hopeless case, turned that around, made Oz unstoppable, and in changing the law changed the times. (Where would we be without the later Beatles freedom of expression, for example?) He has gone on, and continues to do many more significant things in the arena of international human rights, international justice, and the calling to account of war criminals from our time.

                          > Could the MJ event be confused into a Jesse Cooper event?

                          No.

                          Delve into these archives. One MJ event, IIRC on one of the Great Lakes, snowballed. Note again the vested interests. The bloke in Oz, mentioned earlier, commenced the DFWB ripoff of PB&F plan sales; one, in the US, would like to.

                          Graeme
                        • graeme19121984
                          ... Excellent guess.
                          Message 12 of 23 , May 12, 2010
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                            > My guess -- OZ is code for OZtralia. Down under pronunciation of the "a" is broader than I am accustomed to.

                            Excellent guess.
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