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Bobcat aka Tinycat tell-tales

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  • JOHN
    I would appreciate advice regarding tell-tale placement on the traditional Bobcat sail. The sail has two sets of reef points. I have gotten so much good info
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 30, 2010
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      I would appreciate advice regarding tell-tale placement on the traditional Bobcat sail. The sail has two sets of reef points. I have gotten so much good info from the kind people on this board. Thank you in advance.
    • eric14850
      The shape of a sail is everything. A sail on a spar is very different from a jib type sail. You can let the luff of a sail on a spar luff, but if the aft
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 30, 2010
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        The shape of a sail is everything. A sail on a spar is very different from a jib type sail. You can let the luff of a sail on a spar luff, but if the aft part of the sail stalls you might just as well drag an anchor across the bottom. By attaching lots of tell tails all over his mainsail, my father learned that with genoa jib set his boat went fastest with the main, not in tight, but let out so the forward third was luffing and the after 2/3s was drawing well. I took note of that, and like him was able to sail his little full keel boat with an old set of used sails right on past new "fast" fin keelers with brand new sails. They never could figure out how. Their sails looked to be drawing perfectly, but I am willing to bet their mainsail leeches were stalled.

        My advice: tape, or poke light thread through your sail every couple of feet, and do lots of observation. That is what I did. I knew how to get the best set from a 1960's pointy headed sloop. I needed to learn how to get the most out of a balanced lug sail. Besides, my foresail was made from an old mainsail with its top chopped off, and its leech cut back - the worst possible alteration to a sail. I had to know how badly it was set. It wasn't going to set well.

        Things will change with differing wind speeds as well. The tell tails all over your sail will help you determine what changes to your sail help at various wind speeds. Can you change the draft of your sail? Does tightening or slacking the halyard make as much of a difference with a gaff rig as a lug?

        ROGUE's mainsail is 8oz, again a sail cut from a pointy top mainsail. Modern mainsails are cut too flat to properly replace a lug sail. I was frequently frustrated with ROGUE's light air performance to windward. Oh was I happy when I got caught out in winds 22 mph gusting to 35mph. Under single reefed main ROGUE sailed itself past each of the few boats who didn't decide there was too much wind for sailing, while I stood at the mast gloating at how well balanced and capable ROGUE was. Not nice to gloat but I had been eating wakes all that first season after launching until fall brought stronger winds and ROGUE was finally redeemed; to finally learn ROGUE was as capable as I hoped when began building so many years previously. Trust me. I was observing every one of the telltails covering that mainsail all summer long trying every adjustment to sail and sheet that might help. And the adjustments did help. I did learn to sail ROGUE better, and it was nice to be rewarded so richly at the end of the season.

        Eric



        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "JOHN" <rugscrub@...> wrote:
        >
        > I would appreciate advice regarding tell-tale placement on the traditional Bobcat sail. The sail has two sets of reef points. I have gotten so much good info from the kind people on this board. Thank you in advance.
        >
      • Adirondack Goodboat
        fascinating information,Eric. I won t be so critical of people whose genoas are backwinding their mains in future. --Mason ... From: eric14850 To:
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 30, 2010
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          fascinating information,Eric. I won't be so critical of people whose genoas are backwinding their mains in future.
          --Mason
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: eric14850
          Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 10:35 PM
          Subject: [bolger] Re: Bobcat aka Tinycat tell-tales

           

          The shape of a sail is everything. A sail on a spar is very different from a jib type sail. You can let the luff of a sail on a spar luff, but if the aft part of the sail stalls you might just as well drag an anchor across the bottom. By attaching lots of tell tails all over his mainsail, my father learned that with genoa jib set his boat went fastest with the main, not in tight, but let out so the forward third was luffing and the after 2/3s was drawing well. I took note of that, and like him was able to sail his little full keel boat with an old set of used sails right on past new "fast" fin keelers with brand new sails. They never could figure out how. Their sails looked to be drawing perfectly, but I am willing to bet their mainsail leeches were stalled.

          My advice: tape, or poke light thread through your sail every couple of feet, and do lots of observation. That is what I did. I knew how to get the best set from a 1960's pointy headed sloop. I needed to learn how to get the most out of a balanced lug sail. Besides, my foresail was made from an old mainsail with its top chopped off, and its leech cut back - the worst possible alteration to a sail. I had to know how badly it was set. It wasn't going to set well.

          Things will change with differing wind speeds as well. The tell tails all over your sail will help you determine what changes to your sail help at various wind speeds. Can you change the draft of your sail? Does tightening or slacking the halyard make as much of a difference with a gaff rig as a lug?

          ROGUE's mainsail is 8oz, again a sail cut from a pointy top mainsail. Modern mainsails are cut too flat to properly replace a lug sail. I was frequently frustrated with ROGUE's light air performance to windward. Oh was I happy when I got caught out in winds 22 mph gusting to 35mph. Under single reefed main ROGUE sailed itself past each of the few boats who didn't decide there was too much wind for sailing, while I stood at the mast gloating at how well balanced and capable ROGUE was. Not nice to gloat but I had been eating wakes all that first season after launching until fall brought stronger winds and ROGUE was finally redeemed; to finally learn ROGUE was as capable as I hoped when began building so many years previously. Trust me. I was observing every one of the telltails covering that mainsail all summer long trying every adjustment to sail and sheet that might help. And the adjustments did help. I did learn to sail ROGUE better, and it was nice to be rewarded s o richly at the end of the season.

          Eric

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, "JOHN" <rugscrub@.. .> wrote:
          >
          > I would appreciate advice regarding tell-tale placement on the traditional Bobcat sail. The sail has two sets of reef points. I have gotten so much good info from the kind people on this board. Thank you in advance.
          >

        • JOHN
          Eric Thank you for the in-depth response. I will be studying your answer to understand how to apply your advice. I don t think that I can change the draft.
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 30, 2010
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            Eric

            Thank you for the in-depth response. I will be studying your answer to understand how to apply your advice. I don't think that I can change the draft. Last time I was out I forgot to ease the topping lift until about halfway through the day. When I released the halyard, it made a huge difference. I thought that one or two rows of tell-tales parallel to the boom would suffice. If I understand you correctly, it sounds as if you are suggesting more random placement. You sound like the thinking mans' sailor! Thanks again.

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "eric14850" <eric14850@...> wrote:
            >
            > The shape of a sail is everything. A sail on a spar is very different from a jib type sail. You can let the luff of a sail on a spar luff, but if the aft part of the sail stalls you might just as well drag an anchor across the bottom. By attaching lots of tell tails all over his mainsail, my father learned that with genoa jib set his boat went fastest with the main, not in tight, but let out so the forward third was luffing and the after 2/3s was drawing well. I took note of that, and like him was able to sail his little full keel boat with an old set of used sails right on past new "fast" fin keelers with brand new sails. They never could figure out how. Their sails looked to be drawing perfectly, but I am willing to bet their mainsail leeches were stalled.
            >
            > My advice: tape, or poke light thread through your sail every couple of feet, and do lots of observation. That is what I did. I knew how to get the best set from a 1960's pointy headed sloop. I needed to learn how to get the most out of a balanced lug sail. Besides, my foresail was made from an old mainsail with its top chopped off, and its leech cut back - the worst possible alteration to a sail. I had to know how badly it was set. It wasn't going to set well.
            >
            > Things will change with differing wind speeds as well. The tell tails all over your sail will help you determine what changes to your sail help at various wind speeds. Can you change the draft of your sail? Does tightening or slacking the halyard make as much of a difference with a gaff rig as a lug?
            >
            > ROGUE's mainsail is 8oz, again a sail cut from a pointy top mainsail. Modern mainsails are cut too flat to properly replace a lug sail. I was frequently frustrated with ROGUE's light air performance to windward. Oh was I happy when I got caught out in winds 22 mph gusting to 35mph. Under single reefed main ROGUE sailed itself past each of the few boats who didn't decide there was too much wind for sailing, while I stood at the mast gloating at how well balanced and capable ROGUE was. Not nice to gloat but I had been eating wakes all that first season after launching until fall brought stronger winds and ROGUE was finally redeemed; to finally learn ROGUE was as capable as I hoped when began building so many years previously. Trust me. I was observing every one of the telltails covering that mainsail all summer long trying every adjustment to sail and sheet that might help. And the adjustments did help. I did learn to sail ROGUE better, and it was nice to be rewarded so richly at the end of the season.
            >
            > Eric
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "JOHN" <rugscrub@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I would appreciate advice regarding tell-tale placement on the traditional Bobcat sail. The sail has two sets of reef points. I have gotten so much good info from the kind people on this board. Thank you in advance.
            > >
            >
          • eric14850
            Lines parallel to the boom is not the way to think of it, though in line with the windstream is. Distance back from the luff, the mast in the case of a
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 31, 2010
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              Lines parallel to the boom is not the way to think of it, though in line with the windstream is. Distance back from the luff, the mast in the case of a mainsail is more what matters. And you also want to know what the mast is or isn't doing to the airflow over the sail. I did rows about every fifth of the way up the sail, that happened to be parallel to the boom but mostly for aesthetics and ease of seeing what was going on. I put a lot of them in each row. Also put some in the triangle made by the yard so you can see what is going on there. It produces healing. It better be producing forward motion as well. If you don't want to poke holes use tape. I had many more telltails than I needed, but it left me with no questions about what might be going on anywhere on my sail.

              Your sail has adjustments for halyard tension, peak halyard tension, yard outhaul tension, and boom outhaul tension. These all affect sail shape. Perhaps you have a boom vang as well or sheeting system that produces some adjustable downward force and has various possibilities for adjustment including where on the deck it pulls from.

              Happy sailing,
              Eric


              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "JOHN" <rugscrub@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > Eric
              >
              > Thank you for the in-depth response. I will be studying your answer to understand how to apply your advice. I don't think that I can change the draft. Last time I was out I forgot to ease the topping lift until about halfway through the day. When I released the halyard, it made a huge difference. I thought that one or two rows of tell-tales parallel to the boom would suffice. If I understand you correctly, it sounds as if you are suggesting more random placement. You sound like the thinking mans' sailor! Thanks again.
              >
              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "eric14850" <eric14850@> wrote:
              > >
              > > The shape of a sail is everything. A sail on a spar is very different from a jib type sail. You can let the luff of a sail on a spar luff, but if the aft part of the sail stalls you might just as well drag an anchor across the bottom. By attaching lots of tell tails all over his mainsail, my father learned that with genoa jib set his boat went fastest with the main, not in tight, but let out so the forward third was luffing and the after 2/3s was drawing well. I took note of that, and like him was able to sail his little full keel boat with an old set of used sails right on past new "fast" fin keelers with brand new sails. They never could figure out how. Their sails looked to be drawing perfectly, but I am willing to bet their mainsail leeches were stalled.
              > >
              > > My advice: tape, or poke light thread through your sail every couple of feet, and do lots of observation. That is what I did. I knew how to get the best set from a 1960's pointy headed sloop. I needed to learn how to get the most out of a balanced lug sail. Besides, my foresail was made from an old mainsail with its top chopped off, and its leech cut back - the worst possible alteration to a sail. I had to know how badly it was set. It wasn't going to set well.
              > >
              > > Things will change with differing wind speeds as well. The tell tails all over your sail will help you determine what changes to your sail help at various wind speeds. Can you change the draft of your sail? Does tightening or slacking the halyard make as much of a difference with a gaff rig as a lug?
              > >
              > > ROGUE's mainsail is 8oz, again a sail cut from a pointy top mainsail. Modern mainsails are cut too flat to properly replace a lug sail. I was frequently frustrated with ROGUE's light air performance to windward. Oh was I happy when I got caught out in winds 22 mph gusting to 35mph. Under single reefed main ROGUE sailed itself past each of the few boats who didn't decide there was too much wind for sailing, while I stood at the mast gloating at how well balanced and capable ROGUE was. Not nice to gloat but I had been eating wakes all that first season after launching until fall brought stronger winds and ROGUE was finally redeemed; to finally learn ROGUE was as capable as I hoped when began building so many years previously. Trust me. I was observing every one of the telltails covering that mainsail all summer long trying every adjustment to sail and sheet that might help. And the adjustments did help. I did learn to sail ROGUE better, and it was nice to be rewarded so richly at the end of the season.
              > >
              > > Eric
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "JOHN" <rugscrub@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I would appreciate advice regarding tell-tale placement on the traditional Bobcat sail. The sail has two sets of reef points. I have gotten so much good info from the kind people on this board. Thank you in advance.
              > > >
              > >
              >
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