Re: [bolger] Re: Largest "Bolger Box" how about triangle? Seaworthyness
- Thinking about square boats at sea gives me the shivers. I can't see my
self on a broad reach in six foot seas with that hard chine biting in as
she slides off a wave even reefed. I would not hesitate to sail a well
designed keel boat in such conditions with maybe a single reef in a
cutter or ketch or even a sloop of 29 feet. I'll bet bolger has never
been at sea in really big seas. To be a thousand miles at sea you
have to have absolute faith that your boat is on your side. I just
can't Imagen rolling around in a square box in those conditions. My
feeling is Mr. Bolger had been breaking new ground for a long time. In
my view that makes his designs pretty much prototypes and to make it
worse most who build them change them to some degree. Most designers
have been designing variations on 100 year old designs and this includes
Waram. There is a lot of precedence for his designs being good ones,
maybe a thousand years. Who knows a thousand years from now there may
be Bolger boxes sailing all over the world and If I live as long as I'd
like to I will be standing and shaking my head wondering if they are any
good. I have spent a lot of time in sharpies but the idea that they
might be seaworthy to cross an ocean in never crossed my mind. I am old
enough to remeber when women sat home and worried that their husbands
sharpy might turn over and sink in a January blow and they might find
themselves a widow. Does building a boat almost as tall as it is wide
really make it safer?? How does high sides with 60 mile per hour winds
blowing against them become a better boat. I just don't get it.
Douglas Pollard wrote:
> I don't think anyone has mentioned the faster the boat is the less
> supplies you have to carry. So a Warrem may not need the carrying
> capacity that a box does. The more supplies you put on board the slower
> the boat is, the more supplies you need and so on. If you don't take
> advantage of this advantage you are just as well of with a mono hull.
> proaconstrictor wrote:
>> There have been few if any examples of Wharrams being overturned. I am
>> not aware of any that would fit within the size range of the OP's
>> original question. I am also not aware of any Bolgers that have been
>> through hurricane conditions, except the row boat that was lost at
>> sea. I'm sure there are examples, I'm mostly ignorant of them.
>> However, I would not be surprised if there where individual Wharram
>> cats with more heavy seas experience in world cruising than all
>> Bolgers. Are there any 21 foot Wharram boxes that have been around the
>> world like Rory's Cookie? If it was a box it would have been probably
>> an 18 footer.
>> Some of the most irritating things about Wharrams all help you out in
>> the ultimate storm. They are built with too much material, and they
>> have small rigs. Bingo, there goes any real chance of capsize and they
>> can't easily be sunk since the structure has positive buoyancy. They
>> have points on both ends, which allow far more options for para
>> anchors and drogues. They have inefficient V shapes and full length
>> keels on most models, which are great for taking the waves etc...
>> Wharrams are among the most sea worthy ocean boats of any kind. They
>> just bobbed up and down in the tsunami a few years back. One did get
>> thrown on the shore with minimal damage.
>> I'm not saying Wharram good, Bolger bad. I own several small Bolgers
>> and no Wharrams. If I won a medium sized lottery I would move to Oz
>> and build an Oram, not a Wharram for a world cruise, and probably
>> still have a Bolger EP or GLD for commuting to shore. But as far as
>> world cruising is concerned, and the willingness to build big, one
>> would be nuts to build a Bolger and not a Wharram.
>> Details count. For instance how to survive the ultimate storm in a
>> Wharram is something where you can go on the net and get the formula
>> for para-anchoring from someone who has been cruising the oceans for
>> I'm aware of capacity differences, costs, traillering, and Flexy Space
>> vs enclosed space:
>> -I design small trailer sailers myself, and I don't think there is a
>> decent trailer sailing Wharram, though admittedly the standard for
>> multis is really high.
>> - Capacity wise multis loose by definition, but they are increasingly
>> the go to boat for long cruises because they take to shallow
>> anchorages, provide nice tropical living spaces, survive storms, and
>> are comfortable in anchorages with swells. They have gained a lot of
>> followers recently For those of us who signed on in the 70s, the idea
>> that they would be regularly featured on covers of traditional sailing
>> and cruising magazines was hard to believe.
>> - Cost of most multis is high because of the multiple parts, the good
>> bit is that there are less compromises to plywood multis than for
>> large boats of any other type. There are plywood multis that are
>> beating million dollar yachts out there in races. And for the builder,
>> all the parts are lighter to build and cheaper to build than for
>> monos, but there are more of them. My 24 foot tri was about 3K to
>> build add some fabrication, a Hobie rig, and a few 60 dollar winches.
>> My pal's Tiki 46 is going to cost over 100K. at least. Way more than
>> the cubed price. I think I could have built it for less, but maybe not.
>> To restate. Bolger good, but not my choice for a world cruise. I don't
>> even remember reading that proposal in his books.
>> --- In email@example.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
>> "loosemoosefilmworks" <loosemoosefilmworks@...> wrote:
>>> That's sort of an apples or oranges sort of question...
>>> They are both seaworthy and I'd rate their respective "comfort
>> factor" as equal.
>>> http://boatbits.blogspot.com/ <http://boatbits.blogspot.com/>
>>> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>,
>> "Christopher C. Wetherill" <wetherillc@> wrote:
>>>> Since you have experience of both types, what is your opinion of
>>>> would be better in a rough sea? I am guessing the cat would be harder
>>>> to knock over but less forgiving once it occurs.
> Bolger rules!!!
> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
> - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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- Thanks for your understanding, Jeff----- Original Message -----From: Jeffery MeasamerSent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 9:43 PMSubject: Re: [bolger] Buying Plans from PB&FThanks Sussane, I am currently taking a week off visiting relatives but will try to get a check mailed off as soon as I get back home next week. I am glad to hear you are starting to feel better, my dad went through the same thing when my mom passed several years ago, it takes a while but hang in there.Regards,Jeff Measamer
--- On Wed, 7/7/10, Susanne@comcast. net <philbolger@comcast. net> wrote:
From: Susanne@comcast. net <philbolger@comcast. net>
Subject: Re: [bolger] Buying Plans from PB&F
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Date: Wednesday, July 7, 2010, 4:32 PMBetter late than never ??
Jeff, I am in the process of tending to long undone correspondence and will offer you the info you requested ages ago. Perhaps it is still useful to you:- Plans for Design #654 "BANTAM 16/20" on 8 sheet of 17"x22" format are available for US $200.- to build one boat, mailed in a tube, sent priority mail.
- Plans for Design #606 "18-foot Clamskiff" on 5 sheets of 17"x22" format are available for US$125.- to same conditions.
Progress of restructuring my life without Phil continues with periodic 'potholes' unpredictable but less in numbers.
Thank you for your interest in our work.
----- Original Message -----From: Jeffery MeasamerSent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 3:44 PMSubject: Re: [bolger] Buying Plans from PB&FSuzanne, very sorry to bother you but I saw you had posted on the forum and wanted to inquire on the price for plans for Bantam (power Trimaran) and the Cabin Clam Skiff.Thanks,Jeff Measamer
From: Susanne@comcast. net <philbolger@comcast. net>
Subject: [bolger] Buying Plans from PB&F
To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
Date: Thursday, January 21, 2010, 3:19 AMA quick note from Gloucester,
I am sleeping better, am busy in and around the house tending to matters much neglected over recent years - quite therapeutic - and continue to 'acclimate' to doing business without Phil.
Progress at last on a number of serious matters including sending out plans. I've just sent a batch yesterday, including a set to Canada. Tomorrow others will go out, with one set to the U.K.
The point is to let you all know that things are picking up here.
Much unanswered inquiries left to tackle though.
One day at a time.
Susanne AltenburgerPhil Bolger & Friends