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RE: [bolger] Re: Towing a Chebacco

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  • John and Kathy Trussell
    I have a friend who tows a West Wight potter 19 from SC to the keys with a Forester with no apparent ill effects—he normally keeps a car for 150,000 to
    Message 1 of 50 , Dec 28, 2009
    • 0 Attachment

      I have a friend who tows a West Wight potter 19 from SC to the keys with a Forester with no apparent ill effects—he normally keeps a car for 150,000 to 200,000 miles.  He is also pretty conservative, drives sedately, and the trip to the keys is very flat.  It might be a different story in hilly terrain…

       

      JohnT

       


      From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Stefan Topolski
      Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 12:55 AM
      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Towing a Chebacco

       

       

      yep - trailer brakes and lucky we live up in the north where it (never) gets that hot.

       

      I was curious to hear what others who do tow Chebacos with what look like Subaru wagons might say, but it sounds like moderately sized Bolger designs up to about 20 feet and wide or a sneakeasy's 24 feet and narrow can be towed well but wearingly in reasonable safely with a Subaru type vehicle if you can carefully get the tongue weight down to under 200 pounds which is not easy.

       

      Such sized boats would be towed more safely and more reliably with much less vehicle wear over consistently longer distances by something heavier like a truck framed vehicle.  I hope that helps - it certainly helped me.


      Best Wishes,

      Stefan

       

      "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand."    -anonymous

       

       

       

       

       

       

      On Dec 26, 2009, at 10:14 AM, donm172001 wrote:



      I am looking at the brochures as I write this. The 2005 - 2010 Forester has a rated towing capacity of 2400 lbs. The 2010 Outback has a rated towing capacity of 2700 lbs. for the 2.5 liter 4 cylinder and 3000 lbs for the 3.6 liter 6 cylinder engine. According to the Forester User's manual, if you are towing a trailer on a long uphill grade continuously for over 5 miles with an outside temperature of 104 degrees or above, the maximum towing capacity is reduced to 1000 lbs. Brakes are also required on trailers with a weight of 1000 lbs or more.

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, the doctor <scotedoc2@. ..> wrote:

      >
      > I believe most of this discussion is overlooking the most important aspect
      of towing a trailer...   That is ,,, Stopping the rig!   I don't recall seeing any relatively small boat trailers with brakes?    Horsepower is not the only issue... I occasionally VERY occasionally towed a Rhoades 19 with a v/w bug !!   A mile or so...  
      >  
      > just my input.
      >  
      > doc
      > 
      > --- On Fri, 12/25/09, rrusk9 <rrusk9@...> wrote:
      > 
      > 
      > From: rrusk9 <rrusk9@...>
      > Subject: [bolger] Re: Towing a Chebacco
      > To: 
      href="mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com">bolger@yahoogroups. com
      > Date: Friday, December 25, 2009, 8:06 PM
      > 
      > 
      >   
      > 
      > 
      > 
      > OK, responding to GBroadlick's posting in particular but to this topic in
      general. Everybody is throwing around generalities about small cars but few if any are talking about the Subaru itself.
      > 
      > A friend just bought an Outback. 2700 lb rating. Works fine towing a 17'
      Whaler (around 2100 lbs on a trailer). Same rating with any of the three available transmissions.
      > 
      > The base Subaru currently comes with a 2.5L 4-cylinder engine. If it is
      geared reasonably, it should have no trouble towing <3000 lb. Years ago I used to tow 3500-4000 lbs behind a 2900 lb Toyota pickup with 115 hp. The Subaru has about 50% more power and 10% more weight. Before someone yells "a pickup is not a car", I have also towed many miles with smallish cars (from 1.5L-3.5L).
      > 
      > Stay out of the fast lane. Don't use top gear. Open up your following
      distances to something that seems stupidly conservative (it isn't). Install brakes on the trailer. Keep your speeds conservative. Try not to use the last 10-15% of available power for very long at a time.
      > 
      > The 300 lb tongue weight may be a bit high. In my experience, a tongue
      weight of 5-7% works well with a boat trailer. Higher tongue weights are required for travel trailers (sail area) and utility trailers (tight-coupled) . If the tongue is too light it will wander and the trailer may wag back and forth dangerously. If the tongue is too heavy the rear suspension will be overloaded. It will bottom out and it will sway dangerously. With an empty luggage area or empty back seat, a mid-sized car can easily deal with 125-150 lbs of tongue weight.
      > 
      > The Subaru's four wheel drive is your friend while towing. It reduces the
      effects of sway and gives you traction when climbing hills and ramps. A late-model Subaru will also have anti-lock brakes.
      > 
      > You are not likely to hurt your car towing an oversized load once slowly
      and in the right gear. If it shows signs of heating up, slow down or pull over. If you are not comfortable with trying this, then borrow a larger vehicle or rent a u-haul or something to take it to the truck scales and find out what your trailer actually weighs. A Chebacco on a reasonable trailer should be within the capabilities of your Subaru, but not everybody is comfortable towing without a monster tow vehicle. Find your own comfort level.
      > 
      > Bob Rusk
      > 
      > --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, GBroadlick@ .. wrote:
      > >
      > > 
      > > tow ratings for autos is lower for manual transmission than
      automatic. 
      > > I have lost 3 transmissions towing boats, never an engine
      > > you must put on an oil cooler but make sure they use new hoses
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Doug Pollard <dougpol1@ .>
      > > To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
      > > Sent: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:55 am
      > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Towing a Chebacco
      > > 
      > > 
      > > I recently replaced my van with a new to me used one. I had wanted to
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > uy a sedan but in checking out the specs on most of the lighter
      class=apple-converted-space> 


      > > utomobiles I found them not suitable for towing. Yes you can tow with
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > hem. I wanted a v6 engine thinking that towing my Elver would do less
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > amage to the engine if it were a little bigger than a 4cylinder one.
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > ll the lighter sedans I checked had a 1000 lb towing limit on them.
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > ars with v8 engines were much higher and mini vans had 2000 lb limit
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > nless you add a transmition oil cooler. Then the limit is 3000 lbs
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > enerally.
      > > suspect that limit is based on the damage caused by overloading the
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > ransmition rather than breaking power. Modern breaks with the metal
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > mpregnated shoe's can stand tremendous heat though it is possible to
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > arp the rotors. If you over heat a transmition you are likely looking
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > t several thousand dollars to replace it. Considering this I would
      not 
      > > ull more than the are recomended for. If your car is old and has a
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > anual transmition it will likely pull a much heavier load. Modern
      cars 
      > > re built to get good gas milage not to pull heavy loads. With really
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > ood breaks they may be safer though than older cars pulling loads.
      This 
      > > s my opinion only but it is based on about a month of online research
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > n order to buy a towing vehicle for my Elver. The van I just got rid
      of 
      > > 164,000 miles still had the original breaks ( all country miles).
      Just 
      > > efore selling it because I was selling to a young single mom with a
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > ouple kids I didn't want to risk killing them so replaced the breaks
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > nd rotors because the rotars were getting thin. the shoes were less
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > han half worn out. What I am saying is the transmitions are the big
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > roblem with towing. I was told to not tow with overdrive engaged but
      to 
      > > hift into 3rd gear for towing.
      > > oug
      > > 
      > > 
      > > tefan Topolski wrote:
      > > 
      > > :) - yes, i can see how to do that now that you have got me thinking.
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > I could probably place the 2 x 4 under the trailer frame right behind
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > each wheel (not forgetting the tongue too) to make it easier without
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > adding significant error to the calculation.
      > > 
      > > 
      > > Leave it to an engineer to suggest i play at Archimedes.
      > > 
      > > 
      > > Best Wishes,
      > > Stefan
      > > 
      > > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand."
      -anonymous
      > > 
      > > 
      href="http://www.cottagem">http://www.cottagem ed.org <http://www.cottagem ed.org>
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
      > > 
      > > Off the wall suggestion time. If you are uncomfortable taking the
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > trailer to the scale, take the scale to the trailer. PA State
      Troopers 
      > > set up portable weigh stations using load pads that weigh individual
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > wheels. Gross vehicle weight is the sum of the weight on each wheel.
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > If you have a flat hard surface, you may be able to use one of these.
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > Perhaps they are available for rental.
      > > 
      > > You may be able to do something similar with a 2x4, a fulcrum, your
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > weight, and algebra. (Yes, I am a Mechanical Engineer)
      > > 
      > > Stefan Topolski wrote:
      > > 
      > > > Displacement calculations should include all the above (below).
      Not 
      > > > included might be people, food, clothing, and bric a brac.
      > > >
      > > > I'm prepared for others to correct me with no quarter taken...
      > > >
      > > > Best Wishes,
      > > > Stefan
      > > >
      > > > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's
      hand." -anonymous
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > 
      href="http://www.cottagem">http://www.cottagem ed.org <http://www.cottagem ed.org>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I agree with you about the meaning of displacement. However,
      it's 
      > > > pretty often true that the weight of stowed gear creeps up. It
      is 
      > > > also quite possible that the builder could add weight or use
      heavier 
      > > > wood than PCB used for the design calcs. I feel it is therefore
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > > prudent to base the selection on design displacement plus about
      30% 
      > > > for a margin of safety. If, using this method, you calculate
      2500 
      > > > pounds and the car can tow 2500 pounds, you have ample margin.
      > > >
      > > > Also, is the 250kg the mass of the hull alone or hull, spars,
      sails, 
      > > > rigging and, auxiliary?
      > > >
      > > > V/R
      > > > Chris
      > > >
      > > > pkortlucke wrote:
      > > >
      > > >> --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, "Christopher C.
      Wetherill"
      > > >> <wetherillc@ > wrote:
      > > >> 
      > > >>> The drawing of the type 1 Chebacco in sheet plywood (19'
      8 ") on page
      > > >>> 226 of Boats with an Open Mind shows design displacement
      at 1740
      > > >>> pounds. The drawing on page 232 shows thew 25 footer to
      have 2300
      > > >>> 
      > > >> pound
      > > >> 
      > > >>> displacement. It is prudent to assume a percentage over
      this for a
      > > >>> margin of safety. You must also add the weight of the
      trailer.
      > > >>> 
      > > >> I suspect those displacement figures include an allowance
      for crew and
      > > >> equipment i.e. it's not the empty weight which is the
      applicable figure
      > > >> when looking to trail. My Folding Schooner (31ft and with a
      steel
      > > >> centreplate) weighs about 250kg empty (about 600 lbs). Hard
      to believe a
      > > >> standard 19 ft 8 inch Chebacco could be 3 times the empty
      weight of a
      > > >> boat 50% longer even allowing for the light weight
      construction of the
      > > >> schooner.
      > > >>
      > > >> Cheers
      > > >>
      > > >> Peter
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------
      > > >>
      > > >> Bolger rules!!!
      > > >> - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
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      flogging dead 
      > > orses
      > > >> - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks,
      Fred' posts 
      > > >> - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and
      snip away
      > > >> - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger,
      w:st="on">P.O. Box 1209 , Gloucester , MA , 01930 , Fax: 
      > > 978) 282-1349
      > > >> - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com
      > > >> - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_ lounge-subscribe
      @yahoogroups. com Yahoo! 
      > > roups Links
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >> 
      > > >
      > > >
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
      > > 
      > > 
      > > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > > Checked by AVG - 
      href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com 
      > > Version: 8.5.430 / Virus Database: 270.14.117/2582 - Release Date:
      12/22/09 
      > > 8:22:00
      > > 
      > > 
      > > 
      > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
      > > Bolger rules!!!
      > > NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
      > > no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
      horses
      > > stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
      class=apple-converted-space> 
      > > Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
      > > Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger,
      w:st="on">P.O. Box 1209 , Gloucester , MA , 01930 , Fax: (978) 
      > > 82-1349
      > > Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com
      > > Open discussion: bolger_coffee_ lounge-subscribe @yahoogroups. com
      Yahoo! Groups 
      > > inks
      > > Individual Email | Traditional
      > > 
      face=Verdana>http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/
      > >
      >

       

      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
      Version: 9.0.722 / Virus Database: 270.14.121/2589 - Release Date: 12/27/09 04:18:00

    • John and Kathy Trussell
      I have a friend who tows a West Wight potter 19 from SC to the keys with a Forester with no apparent ill effects—he normally keeps a car for 150,000 to
      Message 50 of 50 , Dec 28, 2009
      • 0 Attachment

        I have a friend who tows a West Wight potter 19 from SC to the keys with a Forester with no apparent ill effects—he normally keeps a car for 150,000 to 200,000 miles.  He is also pretty conservative, drives sedately, and the trip to the keys is very flat.  It might be a different story in hilly terrain…

         

        JohnT

         


        From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Stefan Topolski
        Sent: Monday, December 28, 2009 12:55 AM
        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Towing a Chebacco

         

         

        yep - trailer brakes and lucky we live up in the north where it (never) gets that hot.

         

        I was curious to hear what others who do tow Chebacos with what look like Subaru wagons might say, but it sounds like moderately sized Bolger designs up to about 20 feet and wide or a sneakeasy's 24 feet and narrow can be towed well but wearingly in reasonable safely with a Subaru type vehicle if you can carefully get the tongue weight down to under 200 pounds which is not easy.

         

        Such sized boats would be towed more safely and more reliably with much less vehicle wear over consistently longer distances by something heavier like a truck framed vehicle.  I hope that helps - it certainly helped me.


        Best Wishes,

        Stefan

         

        "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand."    -anonymous

         

         

         

         

         

         

        On Dec 26, 2009, at 10:14 AM, donm172001 wrote:



        I am looking at the brochures as I write this. The 2005 - 2010 Forester has a rated towing capacity of 2400 lbs. The 2010 Outback has a rated towing capacity of 2700 lbs. for the 2.5 liter 4 cylinder and 3000 lbs for the 3.6 liter 6 cylinder engine. According to the Forester User's manual, if you are towing a trailer on a long uphill grade continuously for over 5 miles with an outside temperature of 104 degrees or above, the maximum towing capacity is reduced to 1000 lbs. Brakes are also required on trailers with a weight of 1000 lbs or more.

        --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, the doctor <scotedoc2@. ..> wrote:

        >
        > I believe most of this discussion is overlooking the most important aspect
        of towing a trailer...   That is ,,, Stopping the rig!   I don't recall seeing any relatively small boat trailers with brakes?    Horsepower is not the only issue... I occasionally VERY occasionally towed a Rhoades 19 with a v/w bug !!   A mile or so...  
        >  
        > just my input.
        >  
        > doc
        > 
        > --- On Fri, 12/25/09, rrusk9 <rrusk9@...> wrote:
        > 
        > 
        > From: rrusk9 <rrusk9@...>
        > Subject: [bolger] Re: Towing a Chebacco
        > To: 
        href="mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com">bolger@yahoogroups. com
        > Date: Friday, December 25, 2009, 8:06 PM
        > 
        > 
        >   
        > 
        > 
        > 
        > OK, responding to GBroadlick's posting in particular but to this topic in
        general. Everybody is throwing around generalities about small cars but few if any are talking about the Subaru itself.
        > 
        > A friend just bought an Outback. 2700 lb rating. Works fine towing a 17'
        Whaler (around 2100 lbs on a trailer). Same rating with any of the three available transmissions.
        > 
        > The base Subaru currently comes with a 2.5L 4-cylinder engine. If it is
        geared reasonably, it should have no trouble towing <3000 lb. Years ago I used to tow 3500-4000 lbs behind a 2900 lb Toyota pickup with 115 hp. The Subaru has about 50% more power and 10% more weight. Before someone yells "a pickup is not a car", I have also towed many miles with smallish cars (from 1.5L-3.5L).
        > 
        > Stay out of the fast lane. Don't use top gear. Open up your following
        distances to something that seems stupidly conservative (it isn't). Install brakes on the trailer. Keep your speeds conservative. Try not to use the last 10-15% of available power for very long at a time.
        > 
        > The 300 lb tongue weight may be a bit high. In my experience, a tongue
        weight of 5-7% works well with a boat trailer. Higher tongue weights are required for travel trailers (sail area) and utility trailers (tight-coupled) . If the tongue is too light it will wander and the trailer may wag back and forth dangerously. If the tongue is too heavy the rear suspension will be overloaded. It will bottom out and it will sway dangerously. With an empty luggage area or empty back seat, a mid-sized car can easily deal with 125-150 lbs of tongue weight.
        > 
        > The Subaru's four wheel drive is your friend while towing. It reduces the
        effects of sway and gives you traction when climbing hills and ramps. A late-model Subaru will also have anti-lock brakes.
        > 
        > You are not likely to hurt your car towing an oversized load once slowly
        and in the right gear. If it shows signs of heating up, slow down or pull over. If you are not comfortable with trying this, then borrow a larger vehicle or rent a u-haul or something to take it to the truck scales and find out what your trailer actually weighs. A Chebacco on a reasonable trailer should be within the capabilities of your Subaru, but not everybody is comfortable towing without a monster tow vehicle. Find your own comfort level.
        > 
        > Bob Rusk
        > 
        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, GBroadlick@ .. wrote:
        > >
        > > 
        > > tow ratings for autos is lower for manual transmission than
        automatic. 
        > > I have lost 3 transmissions towing boats, never an engine
        > > you must put on an oil cooler but make sure they use new hoses
        > > 
        > > 
        > > 
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Doug Pollard <dougpol1@ .>
        > > To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
        > > Sent: Wed, Dec 23, 2009 9:55 am
        > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Towing a Chebacco
        > > 
        > > 
        > > I recently replaced my van with a new to me used one. I had wanted to
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > uy a sedan but in checking out the specs on most of the lighter
        class=apple-converted-space> 


        > > utomobiles I found them not suitable for towing. Yes you can tow with
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > hem. I wanted a v6 engine thinking that towing my Elver would do less
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > amage to the engine if it were a little bigger than a 4cylinder one.
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > ll the lighter sedans I checked had a 1000 lb towing limit on them.
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > ars with v8 engines were much higher and mini vans had 2000 lb limit
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > nless you add a transmition oil cooler. Then the limit is 3000 lbs
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > enerally.
        > > suspect that limit is based on the damage caused by overloading the
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > ransmition rather than breaking power. Modern breaks with the metal
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > mpregnated shoe's can stand tremendous heat though it is possible to
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > arp the rotors. If you over heat a transmition you are likely looking
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > t several thousand dollars to replace it. Considering this I would
        not 
        > > ull more than the are recomended for. If your car is old and has a
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > anual transmition it will likely pull a much heavier load. Modern
        cars 
        > > re built to get good gas milage not to pull heavy loads. With really
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > ood breaks they may be safer though than older cars pulling loads.
        This 
        > > s my opinion only but it is based on about a month of online research
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > n order to buy a towing vehicle for my Elver. The van I just got rid
        of 
        > > 164,000 miles still had the original breaks ( all country miles).
        Just 
        > > efore selling it because I was selling to a young single mom with a
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > ouple kids I didn't want to risk killing them so replaced the breaks
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > nd rotors because the rotars were getting thin. the shoes were less
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > han half worn out. What I am saying is the transmitions are the big
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > roblem with towing. I was told to not tow with overdrive engaged but
        to 
        > > hift into 3rd gear for towing.
        > > oug
        > > 
        > > 
        > > tefan Topolski wrote:
        > > 
        > > :) - yes, i can see how to do that now that you have got me thinking.
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > I could probably place the 2 x 4 under the trailer frame right behind
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > each wheel (not forgetting the tongue too) to make it easier without
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > adding significant error to the calculation.
        > > 
        > > 
        > > Leave it to an engineer to suggest i play at Archimedes.
        > > 
        > > 
        > > Best Wishes,
        > > Stefan
        > > 
        > > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's hand."
        -anonymous
        > > 
        > > 
        href="http://www.cottagem">http://www.cottagem ed.org <http://www.cottagem ed.org>
        > > 
        > > 
        > > 
        > > 
        > > 
        > > On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:50 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
        > > 
        > > Off the wall suggestion time. If you are uncomfortable taking the
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > trailer to the scale, take the scale to the trailer. PA State
        Troopers 
        > > set up portable weigh stations using load pads that weigh individual
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > wheels. Gross vehicle weight is the sum of the weight on each wheel.
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > If you have a flat hard surface, you may be able to use one of these.
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > Perhaps they are available for rental.
        > > 
        > > You may be able to do something similar with a 2x4, a fulcrum, your
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > weight, and algebra. (Yes, I am a Mechanical Engineer)
        > > 
        > > Stefan Topolski wrote:
        > > 
        > > > Displacement calculations should include all the above (below).
        Not 
        > > > included might be people, food, clothing, and bric a brac.
        > > >
        > > > I'm prepared for others to correct me with no quarter taken...
        > > >
        > > > Best Wishes,
        > > > Stefan
        > > >
        > > > "One gathers peace as a feather in the palm of one's
        hand." -anonymous
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > 
        href="http://www.cottagem">http://www.cottagem ed.org <http://www.cottagem ed.org>
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > On Dec 23, 2009, at 12:18 AM, Christopher C. Wetherill wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I agree with you about the meaning of displacement. However,
        it's 
        > > > pretty often true that the weight of stowed gear creeps up. It
        is 
        > > > also quite possible that the builder could add weight or use
        heavier 
        > > > wood than PCB used for the design calcs. I feel it is therefore
        class=apple-converted-space> 
        > > > prudent to base the selection on design displacement plus about
        30% 
        > > > for a margin of safety. If, using this method, you calculate
        2500 
        > > > pounds and the car can tow 2500 pounds, you have ample margin.
        > > >
        > > > Also, is the 250kg the mass of the hull alone or hull, spars,
        sails, 
        > > > rigging and, auxiliary?
        > > >
        > > > V/R
        > > > Chris
        > > >
        > > > pkortlucke wrote:
        > > >
        > > >> --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, "Christopher C.
        Wetherill"
        > > >> <wetherillc@ > wrote:
        > > >> 
        > > >>> The drawing of the type 1 Chebacco in sheet plywood (19'
        8 ") on page
        > > >>> 226 of Boats with an Open Mind shows design displacement
        at 1740
        > > >>> pounds. The drawing on page 232 shows thew 25 footer to
        have 2300
        > > >>> 
        > > >> pound
        > > >> 
        > > >>> displacement. It is prudent to assume a percentage over
        this for a
        > > >>> margin of safety. You must also add the weight of the
        trailer.
        > > >>> 
        > > >> I suspect those displacement figures include an allowance
        for crew and
        > > >> equipment i.e. it's not the empty weight which is the
        applicable figure
        > > >> when looking to trail. My Folding Schooner (31ft and with a
        steel
        > > >> centreplate) weighs about 250kg empty (about 600 lbs). Hard
        to believe a
        > > >> standard 19 ft 8 inch Chebacco could be 3 times the empty
        weight of a
        > > >> boat 50% longer even allowing for the light weight
        construction of the
        > > >> schooner.
        > > >>
        > > >> Cheers
        > > >>
        > > >> Peter
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >>
        > > >> ------------ --------- --------- ------
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        > > 978) 282-1349
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        > > Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
        > > Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger,
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        > > 82-1349
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