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rowboat

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  • gypsyinvader
    Hello everyone. I ve been away for 5 months, and I just saw Phil s photo has two dates now... Sad. I have a large move coming after which I will build his
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 15, 2009
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      Hello everyone.

        I've been away for 5 months, and I just saw Phil's photo has two dates now...  Sad.  I have a large move coming after which I will build his ultralight rowing boat.  I have it lofted, for a couple years now, but as you likely know, "things" get in the way.  I guess I'm one of the builders he refered to as " glacially-paced..."   :-)  Anyway, has anyone here already built one of these boats?  If so, is it as light and easy to row as I expect?

      Garry

    • Bruce Hallman
      ... I built a boat to the lines of that Ultralight Rowing boat from BWAOM (which was taken from the article in Small Boat Journal, March 1983). Instead of the
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 15, 2009
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        On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 7:13 AM, gypsyinvader <bgwarber@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > Hello everyone.
        >
        >   I've been away for 5 months, and I just saw Phil's photo has two dates now...  Sad.  I have a large move coming after which I will build his ultralight rowing boat.  I have it lofted, for a couple years now, but as you likely know, "things" get in the way.  I guess I'm one of the builders he refered to as " glacially-paced..."   :-)  Anyway, has anyone here already built one of these boats?  If so, is it as light and easy to row as I expect?
        >
        > Garry

        I built a boat to the lines of that Ultralight Rowing boat from BWAOM
        (which was taken from the article in Small Boat Journal, March\1983).
        Instead of the ultralight trussed framing, I chose to use the more
        conventional framing details taken from Bolger's Spur II (which I have
        also built, and which also is a great boat).

        Here are some photos of my build...

        http://sports.webshots.com/album/360982713bZwutE

        Even so, it is good lightweight boat. I find it no real problem to
        cartop and carry the boat single handed for some distance. By resting
        the boat upside down, with the center seat resting on my shoulders, I
        have carried it as far a 1,000 feet. As far as rowboats go, (and I
        have tried out more than a few), this is my favorite rowing boat.

        In my estimation, the boat has ergonomics for a rower about 5 foot 10
        inches tall. If I were to build another, considering that I have the
        legs of a 6 feet tall person, I would be tempted to lengthen the boat
        by about 6 inches which would give a few more inches of leg room
        between the seats. Just a quibble, as-is, this rowboat still is the
        favorite in my fleet.
      • JB
        Bruce, a great looking boat! I went to look at the lines, but I can t find it in my copy of BWAOM (soft cover). I freely admit to missing things from time to
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 15, 2009
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          Bruce, a great looking boat! 

           

          I went to look at the lines, but I can’t find it in my copy of BWAOM (soft cover).  I freely admit to missing things from time to time along with a certain amount of ignorance, but this time I really can’t find it.  What am I missing?

           

          Thanks.

           

          John

           


          From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bruce Hallman
          Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2009 10:29 AM
          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [bolger] rowboat

           

           

          On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 7:13 AM, gypsyinvader <bgwarber@tfon. com> wrote:

          >
          >
          >
          > Hello everyone.
          >
          >   I've been away for 5 months, and I just saw Phil's photo has two
          dates now...  Sad.  I have a large move coming after which I will build his ultralight rowing boat.  I have it lofted, for a couple years now, but as you likely know, "things" get in the way.  I guess I'm one of the builders he refered to as " glacially-paced. .."   :-)  Anyway, has anyone here already built one of these boats?  If so, is it as light and easy to row as I expect?
          >
          > Garry

          I built a boat to the lines of that Ultralight Rowing boat from BWAOM
          (which was taken from the article in Small Boat Journal, March\1983).
          Instead of the ultralight trussed framing, I chose to use the more
          conventional framing details taken from Bolger's Spur II (which I have
          also built, and which also is a great boat).

          Here are some photos of my build...

          http://sports. webshots. com/album/ 360982713bZwutE

          Even so, it is good lightweight boat. I find it no real problem to
          cartop and carry the boat single handed for some distance. By resting
          the boat upside down, with the center seat resting on my shoulders, I
          have carried it as far a 1,000 feet. As far as rowboats go, (and I
          have tried out more than a few), this is my favorite rowing boat.

          In my estimation, the boat has ergonomics for a rower about 5 foot 10
          inches tall. If I were to build another, considering that I have the
          legs of a 6 feet tall person, I would be tempted to lengthen the boat
          by about 6 inches which would give a few more inches of leg room
          between the seats. Just a quibble, as-is, this rowboat still is the
          favorite in my fleet.

        • gypsyinvader
          ... Bruce, Very nice looking job. I have a planset, and I told Phil I wasn t going to use the truss braces also. He said it was fine, and that the ones that
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 15, 2009
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            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I built a boat to the lines of that Ultralight Rowing boat from BWAOM
            > (which was taken from the article in Small Boat Journal, March\1983).
            > Instead of the ultralight trussed framing, I chose to use the more
            > conventional framing details taken from Bolger's Spur II (which I have
            > also built, and which also is a great boat).
            >
            > Here are some photos of my build...
            >
            > http://sports.webshots.com/album/360982713bZwutE
            >
            > Even so, it is good lightweight boat. I find it no real problem to
            > cartop and carry the boat single handed for some distance. By resting
            > the boat upside down, with the center seat resting on my shoulders, I
            > have carried it as far a 1,000 feet. As far as rowboats go, (and I
            > have tried out more than a few), this is my favorite rowing boat.
            >
            > In my estimation, the boat has ergonomics for a rower about 5 foot 10
            > inches tall. If I were to build another, considering that I have the
            > legs of a 6 feet tall person, I would be tempted to lengthen the boat
            > by about 6 inches which would give a few more inches of leg room
            > between the seats. Just a quibble, as-is, this rowboat still is the
            > favorite in my fleet.
            >
            Bruce,

            Very nice looking job.  I have a planset, and I told Phil I wasn't going to use the truss braces also.  He said it was fine, and that the ones that have been built none used his truss' .   He said it wasn't really a serious thought anyway, but he'd love to see one built with them, then watch the person carry it in a stiff crosswind...  :-)  The plans call for a long ply covered foam box seat fore and aft , and you just slide back and forth to a comfortable fit.  That sounds interesting to me, but it's main intent is positive floatation...  He said it's like a non-vee guideboat, so I expect it to move well.  He also said if the planking aft wants to lift off the form a bit, let it.  The ones that did that went faster...  :-)  I've been "itching" to build for years now.  My priorities must be out of whack!  :-)

            Garry

          • Dave Gentry
            That s great, Bruce! Nice boat - I m considering building one myself. Do you have a copy of the cartoon you could post? I have almost zero information about
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 15, 2009
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              That's great, Bruce! Nice boat - I'm considering building one myself. Do you have a copy of the cartoon you could post? I have almost zero information about this boat, but have seen a couple of pics of yours before. It's nice to see your whole photo stream!
              How does she compare to the Spur 2?

              Dave Gentry
            • Bruce Hallman
              ... Sorry, my memory was mistaken, the book BWAOM has the lines of Spur II, not the double ender. Having built and rowed both these boats, they are very
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 15, 2009
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                On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 1:45 PM, JB <jfbriggs@...> wrote:

                > I went to look at the lines, but I can’t find it in my copy of BWAOM (soft cover).  I freely admit to missing things from time to time
                > along with a certain amount of ignorance, but this time I really can’t find it.  What am I missing?

                Sorry, my memory was mistaken, the book BWAOM has the lines of Spur
                II, not the double ender. Having built and rowed both these boats,
                they are very similar with my preference for the 'Cartoon 5' double
                ender being simply that it looks better to my eyes. They both are
                awesome rowboats.




                On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 4:14 PM, gypsyinvader <bgwarber@...> wrote:

                > The plans call for a long ply covered foam box seat fore and aft , and you just slide back and forth to a comfortable fit.

                Actually, the long straddle seat would probably be an improvement over
                the three seats configuration I copied from Spur II. When I row with
                one passenger, me being a big guy who weighs twice the weight of my
                daughter, the balance of the boat skews a bit which affects the
                tracking line of the boat. Being able to slide the weight up and down
                the straddle seat would help fix this. The boat rows great with even
                weight distribution, and I have loaded two adults and four kids, total
                weight of 700 lbs or so, she held it rock solid, though acceleration
                was sluggish compared to rowing solo when she feels like a rocket.



                On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 5:52 PM, Dave Gentry <alias1719@...> wrote:
                >
                > That's great, Bruce! Nice boat - I'm considering building one myself. Do you have a copy of the cartoon you could post? I have almost zero information about this boat, but have seen a couple of pics of yours before.

                I recommend building this boat, as in my experience the lapstrake
                isn't really that much more work than a panel boat, and the end
                results are better.

                http://www.hallman.org/sbj/29/
              • gary
                Garry: I rowed the Spur II when I was even more inexperienced rowing than I am now and it was awesome to row, even in a rough sea, and the easiest boat to
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 15, 2009
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                  Garry:
                  I rowed the Spur II when I was even more inexperienced rowing than I am now and it was awesome to row, even in a rough sea, and the easiest boat to propel I've ever used. You'll love it.

                  Gary


                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "gypsyinvader" <bgwarber@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello everyone.
                  >
                  > I've been away for 5 months, and I just saw Phil's photo has two dates
                  > now... Sad. I have a large move coming after which I will build his
                  > ultralight rowing boat. I have it lofted, for a couple years now, but
                  > as you likely know, "things" get in the way. I guess I'm one of the
                  > builders he refered to as " glacially-paced..." :-) Anyway, has
                  > anyone here already built one of these boats? If so, is it as light and
                  > easy to row as I expect?
                  >
                  > Garry
                  >
                • gypsyinvader
                  Hi Gary, I don t know what the Spur II is... :-) My plan is Ultralight Rowboat. Is the SpurII a double-ender also? I ve always been fondest of the
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 15, 2009
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                    Hi Gary,

                    I don't know what the Spur II is...  :-)  My plan is "Ultralight Rowboat."  Is the SpurII a "double-ender" also?  I've always been fondest of the peapods over the wherry's.  I guess a transom helps in "hobby-horsing" (?), but I feel no outboard motor, no transom...  :-)  By the way, the Ultralight Rowboat is row only, not sail/row.

                    Garry

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "gary" <gbship@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Garry:
                    > I rowed the Spur II when I was even more inexperienced rowing than I am now and it was awesome to row, even in a rough sea, and the easiest boat to propel I've ever used. You'll love it.
                    >
                    > Gary

                  • Dave Gentry
                    Thanks, Bruce - that cartoon is exactly what I was looking for. Another boat on the future list of builds . . . Bolger, ultralight and glued lapstrake make it
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 16, 2009
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                      Thanks, Bruce - that cartoon is exactly what I was looking for. Another boat on the future list of builds . . . Bolger, ultralight and glued lapstrake make it all the more appealing.

                      Got any pics of your Spur 2?


                      > I recommend building this boat, as in my experience the lapstrake
                      > isn't really that much more work than a panel boat, and the end
                      > results are better.
                      >
                      > http://www.hallman.org/sbj/29/
                      >
                    • Bruce Hallman
                      ... http://www.hallman.org/bolger/spur/row/l.jpg http://hallman.org/bolger/spur/ http://www.hallman.org/bolger/spur/hour56/
                      Message 10 of 15 , Oct 16, 2009
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                        On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Dave Gentry <alias1719@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks, Bruce - that cartoon is exactly what I was looking for. Another boat on the future list of builds . . . Bolger, ultralight and glued lapstrake make it all the more appealing.
                        >
                        > Got any pics of your Spur 2?



                        http://www.hallman.org/bolger/spur/row/l.jpg

                        http://hallman.org/bolger/spur/
                        http://www.hallman.org/bolger/spur/hour56/
                        http://www.hallman.org/bolger/spur/hour68/
                        http://www.hallman.org/bolger/spur/row/


                        Just to clarify my opinion about using Gorilla Glue. I would use it
                        again, if faced with the need to work outdoors in the rain like I had
                        to do building this Spur II. But if you have the ability to work in
                        the dry, I favor epoxy glue which is cheaper and superior.
                      • Harry James
                        Something I hadn t noticed before, same transom look as the Defender. Would you recommend either the Spur or Cartoon 5 as a tender or pretty much just as a rec
                        Message 11 of 15 , Oct 16, 2009
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                          Something I hadn't noticed before, same transom look as the Defender.

                          Would you recommend either the Spur or Cartoon 5 as a tender or pretty much just as a rec rowing boat.

                          HJ

                          Bruce Hallman wrote:
                          On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Dave Gentry <alias1719@...> wrote:
                            
                          
                          Thanks, Bruce - that cartoon is exactly what I was looking for. Another boat on the future list of builds . . . Bolger, ultralight and glued lapstrake make it all the more appealing.
                          
                          Got any pics of your Spur 2?
                              
                          
                          
                          http://www.hallman.org/bolger/spur/row/l.jpg
                          
                          http://hallman.org/bolger/spur/
                          http://www.hallman.org/bolger/spur/hour56/
                          http://www.hallman.org/bolger/spur/hour68/
                          http://www.hallman.org/bolger/spur/row/
                          
                          
                          Just to clarify my opinion about using Gorilla Glue.  I would use it
                          again, if faced with the need to work outdoors in the rain like I had
                          to do building this Spur II.  But if you have the ability to work in
                          the dry, I favor epoxy glue which is cheaper and superior.
                          
                          
                          ------------------------------------
                          
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                        • Bruce Hallman
                          ... Don t know. I have used Cartoon 5 as a tow-behind tender for my Micro Navigator with no recalled problems. (...which is a little weird having a tender
                          Message 12 of 15 , Oct 16, 2009
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                            On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Would you recommend either the Spur or Cartoon 5 as a tender or pretty much just as a rec rowing boat.
                            >
                            > HJ

                            Don't know. I have used Cartoon 5 as a tow-behind tender for my Micro
                            Navigator with no recalled problems. (...which is a little weird
                            having a tender with a L.O.A. 2" longer that the mother craft.)
                            Isn't the ideal tender in Bolger's eyes a slab sided boat like June
                            Bug? Or, like Tortoise, etc..
                          • gypsysfloat
                            Wow, I was curious how long it s been that I ve been going to build my ultralight rowing boat... It s depressing... :-) Well, I still have the lofting
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 12 4:59 AM
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                              Wow, I was curious how long it's been that I've been "going to build" my ultralight rowing boat... It's depressing... :-) Well, I still have the lofting stored away, and I still have no workshop! Can't work outside in the single-digit temperature snowbank either. I really am one of those builders Phil called "glacially slow!" IF it ever gets started I will post photo's... I'll just look at yours for now. I have added "Yellow leaf" to my to do list, if that can be called progress. :-)
                              Garry

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "gypsyinvader" <bgwarber@...> wrote:
                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@> wrote:
                              I built a boat to the lines of that Ultralight Rowing boat from BWAOM(which was taken from the article in Small Boat Journal, March\1983).
                              Instead of the ultralight trussed framing, I chose to use the more conventional framing details taken from Bolger's Spur II (which I have also built, and which also is a great boat).
                              Here are some photos of my build...
                              http://sports.webshots.com/album/360982713bZwutE
                              Even so, it is good lightweight boat. I find it no real problem to
                              cartop and carry the boat single handed for some distance. By resting the boat upside down, with the center seat resting on my shoulders, I have carried it as far a 1,000 feet. As far as rowboats go, (and I
                              have tried out more than a few), this is my favorite rowing boat.
                              In my estimation, the boat has ergonomics for a rower about 5 foot 10 inches tall. If I were to build another, considering that I have the legs of a 6 feet tall person, I would be tempted to lengthen the boat by about 6 inches which would give a few more inches of leg room
                              between the seats. Just a quibble, as-is, this rowboat still is the favorite in my fleet.

                              Bruce,
                              Very nice looking job. I have a planset, and I told Phil I wasn't going to use the truss braces also. He said it was fine, and that the ones that have been built none used his truss' . He said it wasn't really a serious thought anyway, but he'd love to see one built with them, then watch the person carry it in a stiff crosswind... :-) The plans call for a long ply covered foam box seat fore and aft , and you just slide back and forth to a comfortable fit. That sounds interesting to me, but it's main intent is positive floatation... He said it's like a non-vee guideboat, so I expect it to move well. He also said if the planking aft wants to lift off the form a bit, let it. The ones that did that went faster... :-) I've been "itching" to build for years now. My priorities must be out of whack! :-)
                              Garry
                            • John and Kathy Trussell
                              Gary, Build time varies directly with the number of pieces in the boat. Finish time varies with the complexity of the pieces to be painted. The trussed framing
                              Message 14 of 15 , Feb 12 5:14 AM
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                                Gary,

                                 

                                Build time varies directly with the number of pieces in the boat. Finish time varies with the complexity of the pieces to be painted. The trussed framing has a lot of fiddly little pieces and these will take a lot of time to fabricate and a lot of time to finish. The good news is that they could be built inside on a table and such a project would keep you happily and productively occupied throughout the winter!

                                 

                                JohnT

                                 


                                From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto: bolger@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of gypsysfloat
                                Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 8:00 AM
                                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [bolger] Re: rowboat

                                 

                                 

                                Wow, I was curious how long it's been that I've been "going to build" my ultralight rowing boat... It's depressing... :-) Well, I still have the lofting stored away, and I still have no workshop! Can't work outside in the single-digit temperature snowbank either. I really am one of those builders Phil called "glacially slow!" IF it ever gets started I will post photo's... I'll just look at yours for now. I have added "Yellow leaf" to my to do list, if that can be called progress. :-)
                                Garry

                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "gypsyinvader" <bgwarber@...> wrote:
                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <hallman@> wrote:
                                I built a boat to the lines of that Ultralight Rowing boat from BWAOM(which was taken from the article in Small Boat Journal, March\1983).
                                Instead of the ultralight trussed framing, I chose to use the more conventional framing details taken from Bolger's Spur II (which I have also built, and which also is a great boat).
                                Here are some photos of my build...
                                http://sports.webshots.com/album/360982713bZwutE
                                Even so, it is good lightweight boat. I find it no real problem to
                                cartop and carry the boat single handed for some distance. By resting the boat upside down, with the center seat resting on my shoulders, I have carried it as far a 1,000 feet. As far as rowboats go, (and I
                                have tried out more than a few), this is my favorite rowing boat.
                                In my estimation, the boat has ergonomics for a rower about 5 foot 10 inches tall. If I were to build another, considering that I have the legs of a 6 feet tall person, I would be tempted to lengthen the boat by about 6 inches which would give a few more inches of leg room
                                between the seats. Just a quibble, as-is, this rowboat still is the favorite in my fleet.

                                Bruce,
                                Very nice looking job. I have a planset, and I told Phil I wasn't going to use the truss braces also. He said it was fine, and that the ones that have been built none used his truss' . He said it wasn't really a serious thought anyway, but he'd love to see one built with them, then watch the person carry it in a stiff crosswind... :-) The plans call for a long ply covered foam box seat fore and aft , and you just slide back and forth to a comfortable fit. That sounds interesting to me, but it's main intent is positive floatation... He said it's like a non-vee guideboat, so I expect it to move well. He also said if the planking aft wants to lift off the form a bit, let it. The ones that did that went faster... :-) I've been "itching" to build for years now. My priorities must be out of whack! :-)
                                Garry

                              • gypsysfloat
                                Perhaps, but the lofting is buried deeeeeep within the storage shed that is packed above the rafters... Would be fun though. Phill wrote that his description
                                Message 15 of 15 , Feb 12 11:48 AM
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                                  Perhaps, but the lofting is buried deeeeeep within the storage shed that is packed above the rafters... Would be fun though. Phill wrote that his description was "aircraft" construction. Not so handy as a fly fishing boat that way though, I think...
                                  Garry

                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell" <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Gary,
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Build time varies directly with the number of pieces in the boat. Finish
                                  > time varies with the complexity of the pieces to be painted. The trussed
                                  > framing has a lot of fiddly little pieces and these will take a lot of time
                                  > to fabricate and a lot of time to finish. The good news is that they could
                                  > be built inside on a table and such a project would keep you happily and
                                  > productively occupied throughout the winter!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > JohnT
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                  > gypsysfloat
                                  > Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 8:00 AM
                                  > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [bolger] Re: rowboat
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Wow, I was curious how long it's been that I've been "going to build" my
                                  > ultralight rowing boat... It's depressing... :-) Well, I still have the
                                  > lofting stored away, and I still have no workshop! Can't work outside in the
                                  > single-digit temperature snowbank either. I really am one of those builders
                                  > Phil called "glacially slow!" IF it ever gets started I will post photo's...
                                  > I'll just look at yours for now. I have added "Yellow leaf" to my to do
                                  > list, if that can be called progress. :-)
                                  > Garry
                                  >
                                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                  > "gypsyinvader" <bgwarber@> wrote:
                                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com> , Bruce
                                  > Hallman <hallman@> wrote:
                                  > I built a boat to the lines of that Ultralight Rowing boat from BWAOM(which
                                  > was taken from the article in Small Boat Journal, March\1983).
                                  > Instead of the ultralight trussed framing, I chose to use the more
                                  > conventional framing details taken from Bolger's Spur II (which I have also
                                  > built, and which also is a great boat).
                                  > Here are some photos of my build...
                                  > http://sports.webshots.com/album/360982713bZwutE
                                  > Even so, it is good lightweight boat. I find it no real problem to
                                  > cartop and carry the boat single handed for some distance. By resting the
                                  > boat upside down, with the center seat resting on my shoulders, I have
                                  > carried it as far a 1,000 feet. As far as rowboats go, (and I
                                  > have tried out more than a few), this is my favorite rowing boat.
                                  > In my estimation, the boat has ergonomics for a rower about 5 foot 10 inches
                                  > tall. If I were to build another, considering that I have the legs of a 6
                                  > feet tall person, I would be tempted to lengthen the boat by about 6 inches
                                  > which would give a few more inches of leg room
                                  > between the seats. Just a quibble, as-is, this rowboat still is the favorite
                                  > in my fleet.
                                  >
                                  > Bruce,
                                  > Very nice looking job. I have a planset, and I told Phil I wasn't going to
                                  > use the truss braces also. He said it was fine, and that the ones that have
                                  > been built none used his truss' . He said it wasn't really a serious thought
                                  > anyway, but he'd love to see one built with them, then watch the person
                                  > carry it in a stiff crosswind... :-) The plans call for a long ply covered
                                  > foam box seat fore and aft , and you just slide back and forth to a
                                  > comfortable fit. That sounds interesting to me, but it's main intent is
                                  > positive floatation... He said it's like a non-vee guideboat, so I expect it
                                  > to move well. He also said if the planking aft wants to lift off the form a
                                  > bit, let it. The ones that did that went faster... :-) I've been "itching"
                                  > to build for years now. My priorities must be out of whack! :-)
                                  > Garry
                                  >
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