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new workskiff photos with link

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  • dnjost
    new photos on http://picasaweb.google.com/dnjost/WorkSkiff02?authkey=Gv1sRgCM6Bgunj8qLhYg&feat=directlink This is currently the USS Neversail. Hopefully I can
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 11, 2009
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      new photos on http://picasaweb.google.com/dnjost/WorkSkiff02?authkey=Gv1sRgCM6Bgunj8qLhYg&feat=directlink

      This is currently the USS Neversail. Hopefully I can attach the external rails next weekend and put the center seat on. Console will be added later.

      David Jost

      PS. lots of foam inside
    • ellengaestboatbuildingcom
      Very nice photos David but they could use more captions for the obsessed viewers who just gotta read about the nity-gritty details they re viewing.Not speaking
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 11, 2009
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        Very nice photos David but they could use more captions for the obsessed viewers who just gotta read about the nity-gritty details they're viewing.Not speaking about myself,of course..........

        Good to hear she's loaded with floatation too....can almost never be too safe! :D




        Sincerely,

        Peter Lenihan,viewer from the North of you........

        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > new photos on http://picasaweb.google.com/dnjost/WorkSkiff02?authkey=Gv1sRgCM6Bgunj8qLhYg&feat=directlink
        >
        > This is currently the USS Neversail. Hopefully I can attach the external rails next weekend and put the center seat on. Console will be added later.
        >
        > David Jost
        >
        > PS. lots of foam inside
        >
      • dnjost
        That will be a good winter project. Many of the photos are also out of sequence. I agree, captions are a good idea, will edit. D. Jost
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 12, 2009
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          That will be a good winter project. Many of the photos are also out of sequence. I agree, captions are a good idea, will edit.

          D. Jost


          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "ellengaestboatbuildingcom" <peterlenihan@...> wrote:
          >
          > Very nice photos David but they could use more captions for the obsessed viewers who just gotta read about the nity-gritty details they're viewing.Not speaking about myself,of course..........
          >
          > Good to hear she's loaded with floatation too....can almost never be too safe! :D
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Sincerely,
          >
          > Peter Lenihan,viewer from the North of you........
        • Bruce Hallman
          ... Looking good. I had a chance to get a ride in Adam Zapf s clam skiff at the PCB Memorial weekend, and came away with a very positive impression. A really
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 12, 2009
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            On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 4:06 PM, dnjost <davidjost@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > new photos on http://picasaweb.google.com/dnjost/WorkSkiff02?authkey=Gv1sRgCM6Bgunj8qLhYg&feat=directlink
            >
            > This is currently the USS Neversail. Hopefully I can attach the external rails next weekend and put the center seat on. Console will be added later.
            >
            > David Jost
            >
            > PS. lots of foam inside


            Looking good. I had a chance to get a ride in Adam Zapf's clam skiff
            at the PCB Memorial weekend, and came away with a very positive
            impression. A really solid useful efficient boat which handles
            comfortably.
          • Susanne@comcast.net
            FYI, gloucester times.com offers an interesting headline. Susanne
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 12, 2009
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              FYI,
              gloucester times.com offers an interesting headline.  Susanne
            • Bill Howard
              Did I not see the plans for the Robin Jean somewhere recently? Can anyone recall?
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 12, 2009
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                Did I not see the plans for the Robin Jean somewhere recently?  Can anyone recall?
                On Oct 12, 2009, at 11:42 AM, Susanne@... wrote:

                 

                FYI,
                gloucester times.com offers an interesting headline.  Susanne


              • Bruce Hallman
                On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Susanne@comcast.net ... http://www.gloucestertimes.com/punews/local_story_284215817.html/resources_printstory
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 12, 2009
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                  On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 8:42 AM, Susanne@...
                  <philbolger@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > FYI,
                  > gloucester times.com offers an interesting headline.  Susanne


                  http://www.gloucestertimes.com/punews/local_story_284215817.html/resources_printstory
                  http://www.gloucestertimes.com/punews/images_sizedimage_284215432/original


                  Navy eyes partnership with city on Bolger boat project

                  By Patrick Anderson
                  Gloucester Daily Times Staff Writer

                  October 11, 2009 09:58 pm



                  The U.S. Navy is exploring a partnership with the city of Gloucester
                  to fund construction of a prototype Phil Bolger-designed patrol boat.

                  If the plan goes ahead, the prototype would be a simple craft about
                  the size of an in-shore fishing vessel that could be built overseas by
                  American forces or developing nations without highly specialized and
                  advanced boat-building training.

                  Still in its early stages, the plan could end with just one boat, or,
                  if the Navy thinks the design has promise, it could order more and
                  begin an ongoing project.

                  "There is an opportunity, but it is in the early stages," said Susanne
                  Altenburger, Bolger's widow and leader of the Phil Bolger & Friends
                  design firm since his death in May. "If we do something simple and
                  plain and small, without guns blazing, there might be more contracts
                  that could become more ambitious."

                  The designer of 680 boats ranging from dinghies to tall ships, many
                  unique creations, Bolger had been marketing a more fuel-efficient
                  commercial fishing boat design since 2003 that he hoped could help the
                  struggling industry lower costs.

                  In February, a prototype of that vessel, funded by former mayoral
                  candidate Robin Hubbard, was completed and is being used by a
                  Gloucester fisherman Davie Mero.

                  The Navy had been talking to Bolger for years about a simple military
                  craft, Altenburger said Friday, but this would be the first time that
                  a prototype would be built.

                  Under the proposed partnership, which has yet to be finalized, $75,000
                  of the project's cost would come from Gloucester's share of federal
                  community development block grants and $50,000 would come from the
                  Navy, according to Mayor Carolyn Kirk.

                  "The Navy is looking for precise engineering and a patrol boat that
                  can be deployed somewhere like the coast of Somalia," Kirk said
                  Friday. "I became very interested and wanted to put in whatever
                  resources I could."

                  The city is eligible for $800,000 in community development block
                  grants this year. The money can be used for housing or job creation
                  and Kirk's policy has been to direct a greater share of Gloucester's
                  funds toward economic development.

                  Kirk predicts the project will create at least three jobs and take
                  around one year to complete, with much of the time dedicated to
                  navigating red tape.

                  Only the boat itself would be built here; any military equipment, such
                  as armaments, would be added on elsewhere.

                  Early discussions have centered around building the prototype at the
                  Gloucester Maritime Heritage Center, but that has also not been
                  finalized.

                  Bolger's innovative designs and their focus on efficiency have been
                  seen as both an aid to the fishing industry and potential niche market
                  for Gloucester.

                  Altenburger said she was excited to see something that Bolger had
                  worked on for so long draw the attention of "the biggest shipbuilders
                  in the world."

                  "It would be gratifying to see a hull in the water and hopefully more
                  of them," said Altenburger, who has vowed to carry on Bolger's work
                  and advance his legacy as globally-recognized designer and marine
                  architect.

                  "The hope is to graduate to somewhat larger boats in time, pleasure
                  boats and commercial boats," she said. "Gloucester could become a
                  go-to place."
                  Copyright © 1999-2008 cnhi, inc.
                • dnjost
                  Congratulations on at least the recognition by the Navy that this is a needed and viable option in many parts of the globe. I hope it comes to fruition. D.
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 12, 2009
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                    Congratulations on at least the recognition by the Navy that this is a needed and viable option in many parts of the globe. I hope it comes to fruition.

                    D. Jost
                  • Bruce Hallman
                    ... I suspect that PCB would have been very happy to see some commercial boatbuilding returned to the Gloucester waterfront! This was a major goal in his
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 12, 2009
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                      On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 11:02 AM, dnjost <davidjost@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Congratulations on at least the recognition by the Navy that this is a needed and viable option in many parts of the globe. I hope it comes to fruition.
                      >
                      > D. Jost

                      I suspect that PCB would have been very happy to see some commercial
                      boatbuilding returned to the Gloucester waterfront! This was a major
                      goal in his life's work, especially during the last several years.

                      Also, I had a chance to discuss this project with the Navy rep for a
                      couple hours during the Bolger Memorial weekend. This particular
                      aspect of the Navy design study commissions of the last years was the
                      most exciting to me. In short, the Navy was seeking to develop a
                      network of new third world 'coast guards' in order to get local
                      connections, in the event of a future crisis they would then already
                      have the beginnings of local alliances so they can know who to call to
                      distinguish the local good guys from the local bad guys in remote
                      obscure third world ports. To accomplish this they needed very low
                      tech coast boats to provide to the locals. Boats which would serve
                      double duty as fishing boats and as third world local coast guard
                      boats. (At least that is how I understood the explanation.) Really a
                      brilliant idea, on a micro budget they could develop alliances
                      throughout the world which could be worth zillions in the event of the
                      next crisis in the next obscure port in a back corner of the world.
                    • Maximo
                      Please, leave alone the obscure third world port in a back corner of the world. We don`t need nor want your help. We have our own problems. Thanks. If
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 13, 2009
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                        Please, leave alone the obscure third world port in a back corner of the
                        world.

                        We don`t need nor want your help. We have our own problems. Thanks.

                        If possible, keep away from this group politics, war and killings, and the
                        business related to them.

                        Don`t make money with war. It`s immoral.

                        Now that you have a peace nobel prize winner president, give us some peace.
                      • Susanne@comcast.net
                        Dear Maximo, I appreciate your concerns. Let me add to the picture in this order: 1.- This is all optional to the local/national authorities, i.e. subject to
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 13, 2009
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                          Dear Maximo,
                               I appreciate your concerns.  Let me add to the picture in this order:
                          1.- This is all optional to the local/national authorities, i.e. subject to their decisions.
                          -------
                          2.- The intent is to provide local capability to build, maintain, replace in perpetuity locally-built craft.
                          3.- On this basis, other uses for such types and their derivatives can be developed, if and when required for fishing, people- and cargo-transport, scientific work, etc.
                          4.- Instead of selling so-called 'developing' nations finished/high-mark-up/mega-bucks 'western types' from BOSTON WHALER types to larger patrol-craft from THORNYCROFT, LUERSSEN, FINCANTIERI for instance, they can save much money while enhancing local 'Can-Do' spirit, pride, and hopefully a commercial future; once you can build these light types, you are on your way to progressively larger types for off-shore capability and multi-week endurance. 
                          5.  Armament, drone-equipment, 'daughter boats'/tactical craft will all be up to local/national interests.  
                          -------
                          6.- The purpose is to enable Sovereignty-Enforcement to protect national boundaries at sea, and thus protection of national fishing rights, protection against illegal dumping of waste by foreign ships, and law-enforcement against piracy, drug/gun-running, i.e, any type of disruption of local/regional commerce such as fishing, short-sea-shipping by indiginous transport etc.
                          7.- Instead of contributing to "war" this should help keep the peace locally/regionally with locally-built craft, and commensurate pride, and over time an increasing self-definition of professionalism ranging from the emerging boat-building industry to the corps of leaders and crew running these craft under national flag.
                          8.- In foreign-policy lingo one might refer to this as 
                          'soft power'-deployment by the US Navy - instead of pointing gun-barrels and sitting ominously on the horizon and on local leader's chest.  Making friends through sharing of locally-relevant knowledge-base (vs. autoclave-dependent carbonfiber dreams even the USN can barely afford !) follows a post-colonial policy-tradition that depends on two-way respect and shared interest in terms of security, local/regional commerce, socio-economics - i.e. the very foundation of peaceful co-existence and even security-alliances.
                          -------
                          9.- Enabling industrial policies are the farthest from 'making money off war'.  Local/national capability to insist on sovereign rights inshore and offshore might keep all sort of things from getting out of hand.
                          10.- Of all people it was Donald Rumsfeld who in 2002 tasked Navy folk to go out and find folks like Phil Bolger & Friends to think outside of the military-industrial box. Out of that seemingly unlikely initiative grew a so far 7-year relationship, during which PB&F and USN learned to bridge vast and deep corporate-cultural 'chasms' in order to focus and pursue perhaps more sensible approaches in the universe of small craft we typically do.
                          11.- In light of items 6. through 8. this capability on offer can be used for good or for ill, pretty much subject to respective local/national policies.
                          12.- On just about all continents cultures existed before the arrival of White-Man-from-West-Europe that knew and practiced everything from war, slavery, exploitation, to just daily humiliation of women/'minorities'.  As for instance JARED DIAMOND points out, it is technology alongside geography/topography/fauna/flora that enabled WMfWE to dominate over recent centuries.  You can use that domination for ill purposes or you can try to help local/national interests to attain effectiveness that builds and protects a peaceful long-term perspective.  
                          -------
                          13.- Local peace has a lot to do with local strength, economic/political wherewithall to assert your perspective, and a self-understanding that you can indeed protect and leverage/enhance that which is yours and how to go about it.
                          14.- If anything, this 'nano'-effort of ours is is as 'aspirational/encouraging' as apparently was the intention by the Nobel-Committee when they thrust the Nobel Peace-Prize upon Mr Obama. 
                          15.- The project has not even started yet...
                          -------
                          16.- Phil and I agreed while-heartedly, that what Mr. Bush showed to the world with IRAQ-2 was how expensive the western high-carbon-consumption life-style is in terms of necessary blood and treasure billed to this nation and others.  Depending on primary energy-sources in territories that you neither own nor can can control well-enough for economic 'just-in-time-delivery' schedules is a very serious problem for the US, most of Europe, many Asian nations, etc.  Typically it is only the US that has the actual military capability to enforce delivery-contracts the 'hard way' if necessary. And the rest of the world's economy depends in large measure on that strength to keep energy-cost reasonably free from black-mail by a few, happy to see economic heart-attacks through refusal to deliver energy per contract. 
                          -------
                          Phil's life-long personal habits and professional interests have been on the miserly/'within-your-means' side of the record, i.e. by now a distinctly minority perspective.  On average, his lifestyle did and does require at best the percentage of primary liquid energy that can actually be produced domestically,i.e. pretty much without 'foreign' oil.  While he voluntarily served in the occupation-army in Japan ('46-'47) he and his successors are to this day still reasonably welcome in Japan, Korea, Germany etc. as guarantors of peace, friends to locals with broadly shared political and economic interests.  Building Bolger-Boats for local/national use seems a good thing in this overall context.
                          -------
                          Even boat-design is political, as are your personal projects.  They are an expression of one interpretation of the economically-viable, the personally satisfying, the 'sustainable' in broad terms.  Pleasure-boating, fishing-craft, law/sovereignty-enforcement craft are all part of that spectrum.  
                          -------
                          Never stop speaking your mind Maximo.  Only with open ears and minds do we progress towards less misunderstandings and conflicts.

                          I think I'll have a drink now...
                          Susanne Altenburger, PB&F. 
                           
                        • Bruce Hallman
                          ... To me, that difference is what is brilliant about this PB&F Navy project. Winning hearts and minds. The Navy provides useful, efficient, sustainable
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 13, 2009
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                            On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 2:04 PM, paul.glassen <glassens@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > For 40 years I have been a sympathetic appreciater of what Phil Bolger and his 'boats for everyone, cautious use of material and resources' philosophy.
                            >
                            > As a US citizen who has lived abroad for the last 15 years I have gained a little perspective on how we are viewed around the world. People throughout the world would be afraid of any intervention by a country currently pursuing military invasions of two other countries, maintaining wide spread 'black site' torture prisons and the humiliating shame of Guantanamo Bay.
                            >
                            > If only we could stick to building smart, simple efficient boats for humane use.


                            To me, that difference is what is brilliant about this PB&F Navy
                            project. Winning hearts and minds. The Navy provides useful,
                            efficient, sustainable boats to poor people in the third world. They
                            use the boats for fishing, etc.. Hopefully then, the Navy builds
                            local trust. If some disaster or security issue develops at some
                            point in the future, these new allies can help us by distinguishing
                            the local good guys from the local bad guys.
                          • pindimarmicro
                            Goodness Susanne, what an impressive reply in all sorts of ways. I bet you needed that drink! GregF I can understand people getting upset at American
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 14, 2009
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                              Goodness Susanne, what an impressive reply in all sorts of ways. I bet you needed that drink!

                              GregF

                              I can understand people getting upset at American interventions of a negative nature (and goodness knows there's many of those, even in my own country) but what you have outlined is

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne@..." <philbolger@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Maximo,
                              > I appreciate your concerns. Let me add to the picture in this order:
                              > 1.- This is all optional to the local/national authorities, i.e. subject to their decisions.
                              > -------
                              > 2.- The intent is to provide local capability to build, maintain, replace in perpetuity locally-built craft.
                              > 3.- On this basis, other uses for such types and their derivatives can be developed, if and when required for fishing, people- and cargo-transport, scientific work, etc.
                              > 4.- Instead of selling so-called 'developing' nations finished/high-mark-up/mega-bucks 'western types' from BOSTON WHALER types to larger patrol-craft from THORNYCROFT, LUERSSEN, FINCANTIERI for instance, they can save much money while enhancing local 'Can-Do' spirit, pride, and hopefully a commercial future; once you can build these light types, you are on your way to progressively larger types for off-shore capability and multi-week endurance.
                              > 5. Armament, drone-equipment, 'daughter boats'/tactical craft will all be up to local/national interests.
                              > -------
                              > 6.- The purpose is to enable Sovereignty-Enforcement to protect national boundaries at sea, and thus protection of national fishing rights, protection against illegal dumping of waste by foreign ships, and law-enforcement against piracy, drug/gun-running, i.e, any type of disruption of local/regional commerce such as fishing, short-sea-shipping by indiginous transport etc.
                              > 7.- Instead of contributing to "war" this should help keep the peace locally/regionally with locally-built craft, and commensurate pride, and over time an increasing self-definition of professionalism ranging from the emerging boat-building industry to the corps of leaders and crew running these craft under national flag.
                              > 8.- In foreign-policy lingo one might refer to this as 'soft power'-deployment by the US Navy - instead of pointing gun-barrels and sitting ominously on the horizon and on local leader's chest. Making friends through sharing of locally-relevant knowledge-base (vs. autoclave-dependent carbonfiber dreams even the USN can barely afford !) follows a post-colonial policy-tradition that depends on two-way respect and shared interest in terms of security, local/regional commerce, socio-economics - i.e. the very foundation of peaceful co-existence and even security-alliances.
                              > -------
                              > 9.- Enabling industrial policies are the farthest from 'making money off war'. Local/national capability to insist on sovereign rights inshore and offshore might keep all sort of things from getting out of hand.
                              > 10.- Of all people it was Donald Rumsfeld who in 2002 tasked Navy folk to go out and find folks like Phil Bolger & Friends to think outside of the military-industrial box. Out of that seemingly unlikely initiative grew a so far 7-year relationship, during which PB&F and USN learned to bridge vast and deep corporate-cultural 'chasms' in order to focus and pursue perhaps more sensible approaches in the universe of small craft we typically do.
                              > 11.- In light of items 6. through 8. this capability on offer can be used for good or for ill, pretty much subject to respective local/national policies.
                              > 12.- On just about all continents cultures existed before the arrival of White-Man-from-West-Europe that knew and practiced everything from war, slavery, exploitation, to just daily humiliation of women/'minorities'. As for instance JARED DIAMOND points out, it is technology alongside geography/topography/fauna/flora that enabled WMfWE to dominate over recent centuries. You can use that domination for ill purposes or you can try to help local/national interests to attain effectiveness that builds and protects a peaceful long-term perspective.
                              > -------
                              > 13.- Local peace has a lot to do with local strength, economic/political wherewithall to assert your perspective, and a self-understanding that you can indeed protect and leverage/enhance that which is yours and how to go about it.
                              > 14.- If anything, this 'nano'-effort of ours is is as 'aspirational/encouraging' as apparently was the intention by the Nobel-Committee when they thrust the Nobel Peace-Prize upon Mr Obama.
                              > 15.- The project has not even started yet...
                              > -------
                              > 16.- Phil and I agreed while-heartedly, that what Mr. Bush showed to the world with IRAQ-2 was how expensive the western high-carbon-consumption life-style is in terms of necessary blood and treasure billed to this nation and others. Depending on primary energy-sources in territories that you neither own nor can can control well-enough for economic 'just-in-time-delivery' schedules is a very serious problem for the US, most of Europe, many Asian nations, etc. Typically it is only the US that has the actual military capability to enforce delivery-contracts the 'hard way' if necessary. And the rest of the world's economy depends in large measure on that strength to keep energy-cost reasonably free from black-mail by a few, happy to see economic heart-attacks through refusal to deliver energy per contract.
                              > -------
                              > Phil's life-long personal habits and professional interests have been on the miserly/'within-your-means' side of the record, i.e. by now a distinctly minority perspective. On average, his lifestyle did and does require at best the percentage of primary liquid energy that can actually be produced domestically,i.e. pretty much without 'foreign' oil. While he voluntarily served in the occupation-army in Japan ('46-'47) he and his successors are to this day still reasonably welcome in Japan, Korea, Germany etc. as guarantors of peace, friends to locals with broadly shared political and economic interests. Building Bolger-Boats for local/national use seems a good thing in this overall context.
                              > -------
                              > Even boat-design is political, as are your personal projects. They are an expression of one interpretation of the economically-viable, the personally satisfying, the 'sustainable' in broad terms. Pleasure-boating, fishing-craft, law/sovereignty-enforcement craft are all part of that spectrum.
                              > -------
                              > Never stop speaking your mind Maximo. Only with open ears and minds do we progress towards less misunderstandings and conflicts.
                              >
                              > I think I'll have a drink now...
                              > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F.
                              >
                            • pindimarmicro
                              Oops, didn t finish! - What you have outlined is all so positive, is what I mean t to say! GregF
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 14, 2009
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                                Oops, didn't finish! - What you have outlined is all so positive, is what I mean't to say!

                                GregF

                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pindimarmicro" <greg@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Goodness Susanne, what an impressive reply in all sorts of ways. I bet you needed that drink!
                                >
                                > GregF
                                >
                                > I can understand people getting upset at American interventions of a negative nature (and goodness knows there's many of those, even in my own country) but what you have outlined is
                                >
                                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne@" <philbolger@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Dear Maximo,
                                > > I appreciate your concerns. Let me add to the picture in this order:
                                > > 1.- This is all optional to the local/national authorities, i.e. subject to their decisions.
                                > > -------
                                > > 2.- The intent is to provide local capability to build, maintain, replace in perpetuity locally-built craft.
                                > > 3.- On this basis, other uses for such types and their derivatives can be developed, if and when required for fishing, people- and cargo-transport, scientific work, etc.
                                > > 4.- Instead of selling so-called 'developing' nations finished/high-mark-up/mega-bucks 'western types' from BOSTON WHALER types to larger patrol-craft from THORNYCROFT, LUERSSEN, FINCANTIERI for instance, they can save much money while enhancing local 'Can-Do' spirit, pride, and hopefully a commercial future; once you can build these light types, you are on your way to progressively larger types for off-shore capability and multi-week endurance.
                                > > 5. Armament, drone-equipment, 'daughter boats'/tactical craft will all be up to local/national interests.
                                > > -------
                                > > 6.- The purpose is to enable Sovereignty-Enforcement to protect national boundaries at sea, and thus protection of national fishing rights, protection against illegal dumping of waste by foreign ships, and law-enforcement against piracy, drug/gun-running, i.e, any type of disruption of local/regional commerce such as fishing, short-sea-shipping by indiginous transport etc.
                                > > 7.- Instead of contributing to "war" this should help keep the peace locally/regionally with locally-built craft, and commensurate pride, and over time an increasing self-definition of professionalism ranging from the emerging boat-building industry to the corps of leaders and crew running these craft under national flag.
                                > > 8.- In foreign-policy lingo one might refer to this as 'soft power'-deployment by the US Navy - instead of pointing gun-barrels and sitting ominously on the horizon and on local leader's chest. Making friends through sharing of locally-relevant knowledge-base (vs. autoclave-dependent carbonfiber dreams even the USN can barely afford !) follows a post-colonial policy-tradition that depends on two-way respect and shared interest in terms of security, local/regional commerce, socio-economics - i.e. the very foundation of peaceful co-existence and even security-alliances.
                                > > -------
                                > > 9.- Enabling industrial policies are the farthest from 'making money off war'. Local/national capability to insist on sovereign rights inshore and offshore might keep all sort of things from getting out of hand.
                                > > 10.- Of all people it was Donald Rumsfeld who in 2002 tasked Navy folk to go out and find folks like Phil Bolger & Friends to think outside of the military-industrial box. Out of that seemingly unlikely initiative grew a so far 7-year relationship, during which PB&F and USN learned to bridge vast and deep corporate-cultural 'chasms' in order to focus and pursue perhaps more sensible approaches in the universe of small craft we typically do.
                                > > 11.- In light of items 6. through 8. this capability on offer can be used for good or for ill, pretty much subject to respective local/national policies.
                                > > 12.- On just about all continents cultures existed before the arrival of White-Man-from-West-Europe that knew and practiced everything from war, slavery, exploitation, to just daily humiliation of women/'minorities'. As for instance JARED DIAMOND points out, it is technology alongside geography/topography/fauna/flora that enabled WMfWE to dominate over recent centuries. You can use that domination for ill purposes or you can try to help local/national interests to attain effectiveness that builds and protects a peaceful long-term perspective.
                                > > -------
                                > > 13.- Local peace has a lot to do with local strength, economic/political wherewithall to assert your perspective, and a self-understanding that you can indeed protect and leverage/enhance that which is yours and how to go about it.
                                > > 14.- If anything, this 'nano'-effort of ours is is as 'aspirational/encouraging' as apparently was the intention by the Nobel-Committee when they thrust the Nobel Peace-Prize upon Mr Obama.
                                > > 15.- The project has not even started yet...
                                > > -------
                                > > 16.- Phil and I agreed while-heartedly, that what Mr. Bush showed to the world with IRAQ-2 was how expensive the western high-carbon-consumption life-style is in terms of necessary blood and treasure billed to this nation and others. Depending on primary energy-sources in territories that you neither own nor can can control well-enough for economic 'just-in-time-delivery' schedules is a very serious problem for the US, most of Europe, many Asian nations, etc. Typically it is only the US that has the actual military capability to enforce delivery-contracts the 'hard way' if necessary. And the rest of the world's economy depends in large measure on that strength to keep energy-cost reasonably free from black-mail by a few, happy to see economic heart-attacks through refusal to deliver energy per contract.
                                > > -------
                                > > Phil's life-long personal habits and professional interests have been on the miserly/'within-your-means' side of the record, i.e. by now a distinctly minority perspective. On average, his lifestyle did and does require at best the percentage of primary liquid energy that can actually be produced domestically,i.e. pretty much without 'foreign' oil. While he voluntarily served in the occupation-army in Japan ('46-'47) he and his successors are to this day still reasonably welcome in Japan, Korea, Germany etc. as guarantors of peace, friends to locals with broadly shared political and economic interests. Building Bolger-Boats for local/national use seems a good thing in this overall context.
                                > > -------
                                > > Even boat-design is political, as are your personal projects. They are an expression of one interpretation of the economically-viable, the personally satisfying, the 'sustainable' in broad terms. Pleasure-boating, fishing-craft, law/sovereignty-enforcement craft are all part of that spectrum.
                                > > -------
                                > > Never stop speaking your mind Maximo. Only with open ears and minds do we progress towards less misunderstandings and conflicts.
                                > >
                                > > I think I'll have a drink now...
                                > > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F.
                                > >
                                >
                              • BrianA
                                Amen, Susanne Just for instance, the pirates around the Horn of Africa did not get their start pirating supertankers. They got their start pirating each other
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 14, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Amen, Susanne

                                  Just for instance, the pirates around the Horn of Africa did not get their start pirating supertankers. They got their start pirating each other when they were still fishing boats, and then started pirating fishing boats from abroad "poaching" on their turf. I would not consider a police car an immoral product, just the opposite really.

                                  Thoroughly well put

                                  Cheers, Brian

                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Susanne@..." <philbolger@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear Maximo,
                                  > I appreciate your concerns. Let me add to the picture in this order:
                                  > 1.- This is all optional to the local/national authorities, i.e. subject to their decisions.
                                  > -------
                                  > 2.- The intent is to provide local capability to build, maintain, replace in perpetuity locally-built craft.
                                  > 3.- On this basis, other uses for such types and their derivatives can be developed, if and when required for fishing, people- and cargo-transport, scientific work, etc.
                                  > 4.- Instead of selling so-called 'developing' nations finished/high-mark-up/mega-bucks 'western types' from BOSTON WHALER types to larger patrol-craft from THORNYCROFT, LUERSSEN, FINCANTIERI for instance, they can save much money while enhancing local 'Can-Do' spirit, pride, and hopefully a commercial future; once you can build these light types, you are on your way to progressively larger types for off-shore capability and multi-week endurance.
                                  > 5. Armament, drone-equipment, 'daughter boats'/tactical craft will all be up to local/national interests.
                                  > -------
                                  > 6.- The purpose is to enable Sovereignty-Enforcement to protect national boundaries at sea, and thus protection of national fishing rights, protection against illegal dumping of waste by foreign ships, and law-enforcement against piracy, drug/gun-running, i.e, any type of disruption of local/regional commerce such as fishing, short-sea-shipping by indiginous transport etc.
                                  > 7.- Instead of contributing to "war" this should help keep the peace locally/regionally with locally-built craft, and commensurate pride, and over time an increasing self-definition of professionalism ranging from the emerging boat-building industry to the corps of leaders and crew running these craft under national flag.
                                  > 8.- In foreign-policy lingo one might refer to this as 'soft power'-deployment by the US Navy - instead of pointing gun-barrels and sitting ominously on the horizon and on local leader's chest. Making friends through sharing of locally-relevant knowledge-base (vs. autoclave-dependent carbonfiber dreams even the USN can barely afford !) follows a post-colonial policy-tradition that depends on two-way respect and shared interest in terms of security, local/regional commerce, socio-economics - i.e. the very foundation of peaceful co-existence and even security-alliances.
                                  > -------
                                  > 9.- Enabling industrial policies are the farthest from 'making money off war'. Local/national capability to insist on sovereign rights inshore and offshore might keep all sort of things from getting out of hand.
                                  > 10.- Of all people it was Donald Rumsfeld who in 2002 tasked Navy folk to go out and find folks like Phil Bolger & Friends to think outside of the military-industrial box. Out of that seemingly unlikely initiative grew a so far 7-year relationship, during which PB&F and USN learned to bridge vast and deep corporate-cultural 'chasms' in order to focus and pursue perhaps more sensible approaches in the universe of small craft we typically do.
                                  > 11.- In light of items 6. through 8. this capability on offer can be used for good or for ill, pretty much subject to respective local/national policies.
                                  > 12.- On just about all continents cultures existed before the arrival of White-Man-from-West-Europe that knew and practiced everything from war, slavery, exploitation, to just daily humiliation of women/'minorities'. As for instance JARED DIAMOND points out, it is technology alongside geography/topography/fauna/flora that enabled WMfWE to dominate over recent centuries. You can use that domination for ill purposes or you can try to help local/national interests to attain effectiveness that builds and protects a peaceful long-term perspective.
                                  > -------
                                  > 13.- Local peace has a lot to do with local strength, economic/political wherewithall to assert your perspective, and a self-understanding that you can indeed protect and leverage/enhance that which is yours and how to go about it.
                                  > 14.- If anything, this 'nano'-effort of ours is is as 'aspirational/encouraging' as apparently was the intention by the Nobel-Committee when they thrust the Nobel Peace-Prize upon Mr Obama.
                                  > 15.- The project has not even started yet...
                                  > -------
                                  > 16.- Phil and I agreed while-heartedly, that what Mr. Bush showed to the world with IRAQ-2 was how expensive the western high-carbon-consumption life-style is in terms of necessary blood and treasure billed to this nation and others. Depending on primary energy-sources in territories that you neither own nor can can control well-enough for economic 'just-in-time-delivery' schedules is a very serious problem for the US, most of Europe, many Asian nations, etc. Typically it is only the US that has the actual military capability to enforce delivery-contracts the 'hard way' if necessary. And the rest of the world's economy depends in large measure on that strength to keep energy-cost reasonably free from black-mail by a few, happy to see economic heart-attacks through refusal to deliver energy per contract.
                                  > -------
                                  > Phil's life-long personal habits and professional interests have been on the miserly/'within-your-means' side of the record, i.e. by now a distinctly minority perspective. On average, his lifestyle did and does require at best the percentage of primary liquid energy that can actually be produced domestically,i.e. pretty much without 'foreign' oil. While he voluntarily served in the occupation-army in Japan ('46-'47) he and his successors are to this day still reasonably welcome in Japan, Korea, Germany etc. as guarantors of peace, friends to locals with broadly shared political and economic interests. Building Bolger-Boats for local/national use seems a good thing in this overall context.
                                  > -------
                                  > Even boat-design is political, as are your personal projects. They are an expression of one interpretation of the economically-viable, the personally satisfying, the 'sustainable' in broad terms. Pleasure-boating, fishing-craft, law/sovereignty-enforcement craft are all part of that spectrum.
                                  > -------
                                  > Never stop speaking your mind Maximo. Only with open ears and minds do we progress towards less misunderstandings and conflicts.
                                  >
                                  > I think I'll have a drink now...
                                  > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F.
                                  >
                                • John Bagshaw
                                  Susanne s response is indicative of America. Bravo! Contrary to popular world view, almost all Americans invest their time in trying to do the right thing and
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 14, 2009
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                                    Susanne's response is indicative of America. Bravo! Contrary to popular world view, almost all Americans invest their time in trying to do the right thing and working for the right reasons. Mr. Bolger was just so, and frequently spoke about political laws that hindered progress or impinged on freedom. Nobel, himself, invented Dynamite to help the world and established the Peace Prize as an effect of his horror to the use of his invention to kill. Only recently has it become polically biased, a shame. I don't agree with your apologetic stance toward America as a general statement. A great deal of good comes from America everyday and saves lives across the world. Politics occupies about 2 seconds of most American minds a day, we rarely care. When a Tsunami, earthquake, storm, etc. hits anywhere, we are there to help. We send food to the starving and medicine to the sick all over the world and the average American pays for it with donations and some tax money.To Maximo's statement, what his country does with this program is up to him and his countrymen. The potential is tremendous and if it goes through, I hope his country has the wisdom to use this program to their best advantage.  If his country uses this progam wisely I hope he reconsiders his opinion of America.

                                    --- On Wed, 10/14/09, pindimarmicro <greg@...> wrote:

                                    From: pindimarmicro <greg@...>
                                    Subject: [bolger] Re: Check Gloucester Daily Times 10/12/09
                                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Wednesday, October 14, 2009, 3:30 AM

                                     
                                    Oops, didn't finish! - What you have outlined is all so positive, is what I mean't to say!

                                    GregF

                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, "pindimarmicro" <greg@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Goodness Susanne, what an impressive reply in all sorts of ways. I bet you needed that drink!
                                    >
                                    > GregF
                                    >
                                    > I can understand people getting upset at American interventions of a negative nature (and goodness knows there's many of those, even in my own country) but what you have outlined is
                                    >
                                    > --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, "Susanne@" <philbolger@ > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Dear Maximo,
                                    > > I appreciate your concerns. Let me add to the picture in this order:
                                    > > 1.- This is all optional to the local/national authorities, i.e. subject to their decisions.
                                    > > -------
                                    > > 2.- The intent is to provide local capability to build, maintain, replace in perpetuity locally-built craft.
                                    > > 3.- On this basis, other uses for such types and their derivatives can be developed, if and when required for fishing, people- and cargo-transport, scientific work, etc.
                                    > > 4.- Instead of selling so-called 'developing' nations finished/high- mark-up/mega- bucks 'western types' from BOSTON WHALER types to larger patrol-craft from THORNYCROFT, LUERSSEN, FINCANTIERI for instance, they can save much money while enhancing local 'Can-Do' spirit, pride, and hopefully a commercial future; once you can build these light types, you are on your way to progressively larger types for off-shore capability and multi-week endurance.
                                    > > 5. Armament, drone-equipment, 'daughter boats'/tactical craft will all be up to local/national interests.
                                    > > -------
                                    > > 6.- The purpose is to enable Sovereignty- Enforcement to protect national boundaries at sea, and thus protection of national fishing rights, protection against illegal dumping of waste by foreign ships, and law-enforcement against piracy, drug/gun-running, i.e, any type of disruption of local/regional commerce such as fishing, short-sea-shipping by indiginous transport etc.
                                    > > 7.- Instead of contributing to "war" this should help keep the peace locally/regionally with locally-built craft, and commensurate pride, and over time an increasing self-definition of professionalism ranging from the emerging boat-building industry to the corps of leaders and crew running these craft under national flag.
                                    > > 8.- In foreign-policy lingo one might refer to this as 'soft power'-deployment by the US Navy - instead of pointing gun-barrels and sitting ominously on the horizon and on local leader's chest. Making friends through sharing of locally-relevant knowledge-base (vs. autoclave-dependent carbonfiber dreams even the USN can barely afford !) follows a post-colonial policy-tradition that depends on two-way respect and shared interest in terms of security, local/regional commerce, socio-economics - i.e. the very foundation of peaceful co-existence and even security-alliances.
                                    > > -------
                                    > > 9.- Enabling industrial policies are the farthest from 'making money off war'. Local/national capability to insist on sovereign rights inshore and offshore might keep all sort of things from getting out of hand.
                                    > > 10.- Of all people it was Donald Rumsfeld who in 2002 tasked Navy folk to go out and find folks like Phil Bolger & Friends to think outside of the military-industrial box. Out of that seemingly unlikely initiative grew a so far 7-year relationship, during which PB&F and USN learned to bridge vast and deep corporate-cultural 'chasms' in order to focus and pursue perhaps more sensible approaches in the universe of small craft we typically do.
                                    > > 11.- In light of items 6. through 8. this capability on offer can be used for good or for ill, pretty much subject to respective local/national policies.
                                    > > 12.- On just about all continents cultures existed before the arrival of White-Man-from- West-Europe that knew and practiced everything from war, slavery, exploitation, to just daily humiliation of women/'minorities' . As for instance JARED DIAMOND points out, it is technology alongside geography/topograph y/fauna/flora that enabled WMfWE to dominate over recent centuries. You can use that domination for ill purposes or you can try to help local/national interests to attain effectiveness that builds and protects a peaceful long-term perspective.
                                    > > -------
                                    > > 13.- Local peace has a lot to do with local strength, economic/political wherewithall to assert your perspective, and a self-understanding that you can indeed protect and leverage/enhance that which is yours and how to go about it.
                                    > > 14.- If anything, this 'nano'-effort of ours is is as 'aspirational/ encouraging' as apparently was the intention by the Nobel-Committee when they thrust the Nobel Peace-Prize upon Mr Obama.
                                    > > 15.- The project has not even started yet...
                                    > > -------
                                    > > 16.- Phil and I agreed while-heartedly, that what Mr. Bush showed to the world with IRAQ-2 was how expensive the western high-carbon- consumption life-style is in terms of necessary blood and treasure billed to this nation and others. Depending on primary energy-sources in territories that you neither own nor can can control well-enough for economic 'just-in-time- delivery' schedules is a very serious problem for the US, most of Europe, many Asian nations, etc. Typically it is only the US that has the actual military capability to enforce delivery-contracts the 'hard way' if necessary. And the rest of the world's economy depends in large measure on that strength to keep energy-cost reasonably free from black-mail by a few, happy to see economic heart-attacks through refusal to deliver energy per contract.
                                    > > -------
                                    > > Phil's life-long personal habits and professional interests have been on the miserly/'within- your-means' side of the record, i.e. by now a distinctly minority perspective. On average, his lifestyle did and does require at best the percentage of primary liquid energy that can actually be produced domestically, i.e. pretty much without 'foreign' oil. While he voluntarily served in the occupation-army in Japan ('46-'47) he and his successors are to this day still reasonably welcome in Japan, Korea, Germany etc. as guarantors of peace, friends to locals with broadly shared political and economic interests. Building Bolger-Boats for local/national use seems a good thing in this overall context.
                                    > > -------
                                    > > Even boat-design is political, as are your personal projects. They are an expression of one interpretation of the economically- viable, the personally satisfying, the 'sustainable' in broad terms. Pleasure-boating, fishing-craft, law/sovereignty- enforcement craft are all part of that spectrum.
                                    > > -------
                                    > > Never stop speaking your mind Maximo. Only with open ears and minds do we progress towards less misunderstandings and conflicts.
                                    > >
                                    > > I think I'll have a drink now...
                                    > > Susanne Altenburger, PB&F.
                                    > >
                                    >


                                  • Maximo
                                    Susanne and others, thank you for your long answers. Susanne, you are much more diplomatic than the offensive words of the Navy rep. You should consider
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Oct 14, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Susanne and others, thank you for your long answers. Susanne, you are much
                                      more diplomatic than the offensive words of the Navy rep. You should
                                      consider running for candidate :)

                                      When USA is offering something to some "obscure third world port in a back
                                      corner of the world" the meaning of "optional" is not well defined.

                                      There are always justifications for violence, especially far away from your
                                      home: religion, land, slavery, nuclear weapons, oil, pirates, fresh water...
                                      probably the sea, artic and antartic region are next.

                                      If someone want to help poor people in poor country, you could start with
                                      education, health, food, worthy house and work. As you can see, you can do a
                                      lot before giving weapons. For that, congratulations on your efficient
                                      fishing design. I salute you.

                                      ¿But giving low tech boats in order to locals in the future are informants
                                      to protect your own economic interests in the region? Not very altruist
                                      help.

                                      In point 16, you make clear this politics is not intended for helping poor
                                      people. Is for preserving US, Europe, Asian style of life, your economy, not
                                      the "global" economy.

                                      John: "Politics occupies about 2 seconds of most American minds a day, we
                                      rarely care." I think this is a problem :)

                                      Sometimes, when you think your goverment are helping, they are hurting us.

                                      Don`t get me wrong, I don`t have "apologetic stance toward America as a
                                      general statement". Only for your international politics :)
                                      I`ve been there many times, and I hope, if the CIA is not reading this 8) I
                                      will be there more in the future.


                                      As this turns very off-topic, and most of the readers of this group are
                                      americans, and I don`t want to choose wrongs words or expresions, beacuse of
                                      a bad translation, I will do my best to not write about this anymore, and I
                                      apologize in advance to the group. As you can read, as english is not my
                                      native language, is very difficult to find the right words and speech
                                      freely. I will return to amateur boatbuilding for fun.

                                      Peace. Máximo.
                                    • Bruce Hallman
                                      ... This is the essence, and after 517 years of Imperialism, a very reasonable viewpoint. Providing fishing boats to help poor people that need fishing boats
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Oct 14, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 7:01 AM, Maximo <grupos@...> wrote:

                                        > ¿But giving low tech boats in order to locals in the future are informants
                                        > to protect your own economic interests in the region? Not very altruist
                                        > help.

                                        This is the essence, and after 517 years of Imperialism, a very
                                        reasonable viewpoint.

                                        Providing fishing boats to help poor people that need fishing boats
                                        (hoping to earn their alliance) is not very altruistic, but it could
                                        be a little bit altruistic.
                                      • Chester Young
                                        Maximo: The world is too small to ignore the politics of life. Your comments are especially enlightening to me as an American. You contribute significantly
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Oct 14, 2009
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                                          Maximo:

                                           

                                          The world is too small to ignore the politics of life.  Your comments are especially enlightening to me as an American.  You contribute significantly to the boatbuilding conversation on this forum and now you have added another facet to who you are.   I see no need for you to apologize, you have expressed an opinion about an issue that crosses the lines between the two and Susanne posted a thoughtful response.

                                           

                                          Respectfully

                                           

                                          Caloosarat

                                           

                                          From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Maximo
                                          Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 10:16 AM
                                          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Check Gloucester Daily Times 10/12/09

                                           

                                           

                                          Susanne and others, thank you for your long answers. Susanne, you are much
                                          more diplomatic than the offensive words of the Navy rep. You should
                                          consider running for candidate :)

                                          When USA is offering something to some "obscure third world port in a back
                                          corner of the world" the meaning of "optional" is not well defined.

                                          There are always justifications for violence, especially far away from your
                                          home: religion, land, slavery, nuclear weapons, oil, pirates, fresh water...
                                          probably the sea, artic and antartic region are next.

                                          If someone want to help poor people in poor country, you could start with
                                          education, health, food, worthy house and work. As you can see, you can do a
                                          lot before giving weapons. For that, congratulations on your efficient
                                          fishing design. I salute you.

                                          ¿But giving low tech boats in order to locals in the future are informants
                                          to protect your own economic interests in the region? Not very altruist
                                          help.

                                          In point 16, you make clear this politics is not intended for helping poor
                                          people. Is for preserving US, Europe, Asian style of life, your economy, not
                                          the "global" economy.

                                          John: "Politics occupies about 2 seconds of most American minds a day, we
                                          rarely care." I think this is a problem :)

                                          Sometimes, when you think your goverment are helping, they are hurting us.

                                          Don`t get me wrong, I don`t have "apologetic stance toward America as a
                                          general statement". Only for your international politics :)
                                          I`ve been there many times, and I hope, if the CIA is not reading this 8) I
                                          will be there more in the future.

                                          As this turns very off-topic, and most of the readers of this group are
                                          americans, and I don`t want to choose wrongs words or expresions, beacuse of
                                          a bad translation, I will do my best to not write about this anymore, and I
                                          apologize in advance to the group. As you can read, as english is not my
                                          native language, is very difficult to find the right words and speech
                                          freely. I will return to amateur boatbuilding for fun.

                                          Peace. Máximo.

                                        • Andrew Wallace
                                          Well said, Maximo! Andrew. ________________________________ From: Maximo To: bolger@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, October 15, 2009 3:01:00
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Oct 14, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Well said, Maximo!
                                            Andrew.



                                            From: Maximo <grupos@...>
                                            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Thu, October 15, 2009 3:01:00 AM
                                            Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Check Gloucester Daily Times 10/12/09

                                             

                                            Susanne and others, thank you for your long answers. Susanne, you are much
                                            more diplomatic than the offensive words of the Navy rep. You should
                                            consider running for candidate :)

                                            When USA is offering something to some "obscure third world port in a back
                                            corner of the world" the meaning of "optional" is not well defined.

                                            There are always justifications for violence, especially far away from your
                                            home: religion, land, slavery, nuclear weapons, oil, pirates, fresh water...
                                            probably the sea, artic and antartic region are next.

                                            If someone want to help poor people in poor country, you could start with
                                            education, health, food, worthy house and work. As you can see, you can do a
                                            lot before giving weapons. For that, congratulations on your efficient
                                            fishing design. I salute you.

                                            ¿But giving low tech boats in order to locals in the future are informants
                                            to protect your own economic interests in the region? Not very altruist
                                            help.

                                            In point 16, you make clear this politics is not intended for helping poor
                                            people. Is for preserving US, Europe, Asian style of life, your economy, not
                                            the "global" economy.

                                            John: "Politics occupies about 2 seconds of most American minds a day, we
                                            rarely care." I think this is a problem :)

                                            Sometimes, when you think your goverment are helping, they are hurting us.

                                            Don`t get me wrong, I don`t have "apologetic stance toward America as a
                                            general statement". Only for your international politics :)
                                            I`ve been there many times, and I hope, if the CIA is not reading this 8) I
                                            will be there more in the future.

                                            As this turns very off-topic, and most of the readers of this group are
                                            americans, and I don`t want to choose wrongs words or expresions, beacuse of
                                            a bad translation, I will do my best to not write about this anymore, and I
                                            apologize in advance to the group. As you can read, as english is not my
                                            native language, is very difficult to find the right words and speech
                                            freely. I will return to amateur boatbuilding for fun.

                                            Peace. Máximo.


                                            Reading this email at work? Make a change with Yahoo!Xtra Jobs
                                          • graeme19121984
                                            The business? First sell em small shallow draft appropriate-technology patrol boats, then come at em over the horizon with super hi-tech like this eh?
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Nov 2, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              The business? First sell 'em small shallow draft appropriate-technology "patrol" boats, then come at 'em over the horizon with super hi-tech like this eh?

                                              http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/album/396037030/pic/list (see 'Military' album in photos)

                                              Then sell 'em, or the subsequent government that is, on some more lower tech... repeat. The people will pay... endless & ok?

                                              Graeme

                                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Maximo" <grupos@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Please, leave alone the obscure third world port in a back corner of the
                                              > world.
                                              >
                                              > We don`t need nor want your help. We have our own problems. Thanks.
                                              >
                                              > If possible, keep away from this group politics, war and killings, and the
                                              > business related to them.
                                              >
                                              > Don`t make money with war. It`s immoral.
                                              >
                                              > Now that you have a peace nobel prize winner president, give us some peace.
                                              >
                                            • Bill Kreamer
                                              Not what PB does; irrelevant to the group. (sound of post hitting the wastebasket) _____ From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Nov 3, 2009
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Not what PB does; irrelevant to the group. (sound of post hitting the wastebasket)


                                                From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of graeme19121984
                                                Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 8:01 PM
                                                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [bolger] Re: Check Gloucester Daily Times 10/12/09

                                                 



                                                The business? First sell 'em small shallow draft appropriate- technology "patrol" boats, then come at 'em over the horizon with super hi-tech like this eh?

                                                http://au.groups. yahoo.com/ group/bolger/ photos/album/ 396037030/ pic/list (see 'Military' album in photos)

                                                Then sell 'em, or the subsequent government that is, on some more lower tech... repeat. The people will pay... endless & ok?

                                                Graeme

                                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, "Maximo" <grupos@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Please, leave alone the obscure third world port in a back corner of the
                                                > world.
                                                >
                                                > We don`t need nor want your help. We have our own problems. Thanks.
                                                >
                                                > If possible, keep away from this group politics, war and killings, and the
                                                > business related to them.
                                                >
                                                > Don`t make money with war. It`s immoral.
                                                >
                                                > Now that you have a peace nobel prize winner president, give us some peace.
                                                >

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