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Re: [bolger] Re: Tennessee Build.

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  • pesterle@comcast.net
    The name Atkin has long been associated with the best in basic boats. If you are looking for the right little boat to build -- or s. have built -- or if you
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 3, 2009
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      The name Atkin has long been associated with the best in basic boats. If you are looking for "the right little boat" to build -- or
      s. have built -- or if you just like to dream over boat plans -- you'll be delighted with the design collections of John (1918-1999) and William (1882-1962) Atkin, which are now being sold by John's widow, Pat.


      Paul Esterle


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "adventures_in_astrophotography" <jon@...>
      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, February 3, 2009 3:50:09 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
      Subject: [bolger] Re: Tennessee Build.






      If you like "Gwen O The River", then you might try contacting PB&F
      about the "Captain Rebecca Thatcher" design. It appeared in MAIB a
      couple of years back, but I don't know if it's actually a finished
      design. If it is, it would be much more like Gwen than Tennessee.

      With respect to limited information about the Atkin design, I got the
      sense that the current business is run by a widow or other relative
      of one of the Atkins who may not have much additional information to
      provide. Perhaps someone else on this forum can provide more details.

      Jon

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com , "my48cj2a" <my48cj2a@...> wrote:
      >
      > I am going to build the Tennessee. I like the shallow draft. It
      will be
      > perfect for the Indian river lagoon Where I live. That old time
      look is
      > great. While I have been talking about other boat builds this one
      will
      > be first in line.
      > I had thought about building the Atkins "Gwen O' the river" but
      the
      > Atkin & Co people have not been able to answer any of my questions
      > about it. And when they did it was one sentence and that was
      it. ???.
      > If I am not worth the time as a paying customer why build the boat?
      > Besides,I have seen pictures of the Tennessee in action. Nice
      looking
      > boat. I can't find any of the Gwen O' The River. If it could be a
      > trailerd boat we would see more of them(their loss). The Tennessee
      can
      > be,and it is a fine looking boat in and out of the water. What got
      me
      > hooked was the EstherMae and the Mangrove Mistress. Is anyone else
      > building one out there right now? If so please let me know I am
      looking
      > for all the info I can get. Any built of foam? Sternwheel?
      Pictures?
      > Thanks all.I will post the build.
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bruce Hallman
      ... Another shallow draft Bolger boat almost identical in draft, size and complexity as the Tennessee is the Topaz. The difference is that Topaz uses the
      Message 2 of 25 , Feb 3, 2009
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        On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 8:54 AM, my48cj2a <my48cj2a@...> wrote:
        > I am going to build the Tennessee. I like the shallow draft. It will be
        > perfect...

        Another shallow draft Bolger boat almost identical in draft, size and
        complexity as the Tennessee is the Topaz. The difference is that
        Topaz uses the 'twisted panel' forefoot bow technique found on Bolgers
        more modern designs. Also, there is the "Blackfish" which is similar
        to Topaz but has a wider stern compared with the narrowing Topaz
        stern. I am guessing that if you asked Bolger, he would try to steer
        you towards his more recent designs because they reflect his most
        recent ideas of what is "good". The blunter Tennessee bow might not
        cut as cleanly through choppy water as the twisted panel. My guess
        would be these boats all would take about the same amount of time to
        build. (variables+/-, of course, but building time correlates closely
        with total displacement, and these three boats have nearly identical
        displacements.)

        Here are some 3D renderings of Tennessee.

        http://www.flickr.com/search/?s=int&ss=2&w=86125870%40N00&q=tennessee&m=text

        I will try to put up isometric renderings of the Topaz later...
      • graeme19121984
        ... John Kohnen posted on this group just the other day - I m sure he could point you in the right direction for info, if any is available. Also there s the
        Message 3 of 25 , Feb 4, 2009
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          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "my48cj2a" <my48cj2a@...> wrote:

          > I had thought about building the Atkins "Gwen O' the river" but the
          > Atkin & Co people have not been able to answer any of my questions
          > about it. And when they did it was one sentence and that was it. ???.
          > If I am not worth the time as a paying customer why build the boat?

          John Kohnen posted on this group just the other day - I'm sure he could
          point you in the right direction for info, if any is available. Also
          there's the AtkinBoats group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AtkinBoats/
          ah, I see you already know... good luck then
        • Chris Feller
          I did a search for information on Tennessee at Duckworks and came up with these links. http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/building/index.htm
          Message 4 of 25 , Feb 4, 2009
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            I did a search for information on Tennessee at Duckworks and came up
            with these links.

            http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/building/index.htm

            http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/tennessee/index.htm

            http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/projects/tennessee/index.cfm

            Here is one of Topaz
            http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/topaz/index.htm

            Nice boats. I wish I had a building space large enough. I would
            build a Tennessee if I did.

            Chris Feller
            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "my48cj2a" <my48cj2a@...> wrote:
            >
            > I am going to build the Tennessee. I like the shallow draft. It will be
            > perfect for the Indian river lagoon Where I live. That old time look is
            > great. While I have been talking about other boat builds this one will
            > be first in line.
            > I had thought about building the Atkins "Gwen O' the river" but the
            > Atkin & Co people have not been able to answer any of my questions
            > about it. And when they did it was one sentence and that was it. ???.
            > If I am not worth the time as a paying customer why build the boat?
            > Besides,I have seen pictures of the Tennessee in action. Nice looking
            > boat. I can't find any of the Gwen O' The River. If it could be a
            > trailerd boat we would see more of them(their loss). The Tennessee can
            > be,and it is a fine looking boat in and out of the water. What got me
            > hooked was the EstherMae and the Mangrove Mistress. Is anyone else
            > building one out there right now? If so please let me know I am looking
            > for all the info I can get. Any built of foam? Sternwheel? Pictures?
            > Thanks all.I will post the build.
            >
          • Harry James
            Do you have the link to Dick Welch s Tennessee? http://www.boatdesign.com/jumps/dixtenn/Page.html HJ ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 25 , Feb 4, 2009
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              Do you have the link to Dick Welch's Tennessee?

              http://www.boatdesign.com/jumps/dixtenn/Page.html

              HJ

              Chris Feller wrote:
              > I did a search for information on Tennessee at Duckworks and came up
              > with these links.
              >
              > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/building/index.htm
              >
              > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/tennessee/index.htm
              >
              > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/projects/tennessee/index.cfm
              >
              > Here is one of Topaz
              > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/topaz/index.htm
              >
              > Nice boats. I wish I had a building space large enough. I would
              > build a Tennessee if I did.
              >
              > Chris Feller
              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "my48cj2a" <my48cj2a@...> wrote:
              >
              >> I am going to build the Tennessee. I like the shallow draft. It will be
              >> perfect for the Indian river lagoon Where I live. That old time look is
              >> great. While I have been talking about other boat builds this one will
              >> be first in line.
              >> I had thought about building the Atkins "Gwen O' the river" but the
              >> Atkin & Co people have not been able to answer any of my questions
              >> about it. And when they did it was one sentence and that was it. ???.
              >> If I am not worth the time as a paying customer why build the boat?
              >> Besides,I have seen pictures of the Tennessee in action. Nice looking
              >> boat. I can't find any of the Gwen O' The River. If it could be a
              >> trailerd boat we would see more of them(their loss). The Tennessee can
              >> be,and it is a fine looking boat in and out of the water. What got me
              >> hooked was the EstherMae and the Mangrove Mistress. Is anyone else
              >> building one out there right now? If so please let me know I am looking
              >> for all the info I can get. Any built of foam? Sternwheel? Pictures?
              >> Thanks all.I will post the build.
              >>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > Bolger rules!!!
              > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
              > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
              > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
              > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
              > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
              > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Kohnen
              The Atkin designs are being sold by John s widow, Pat, with some help from me. I don t recall being asked if Gwen o the River is trailerable, and the curt
              Message 6 of 25 , Feb 6, 2009
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                The Atkin designs are being sold by John's widow, Pat, with some help from
                me. I don't recall being asked if Gwen o' the River is trailerable, and
                the curt reply sounds more like Pat. Her one sentence answer was correct
                (I'm kind of surprised it wasn't one word <g>), but I probably would have
                explained it a bit more. Built as designed, Gwen o' the River is not
                trailerable. If the construction was changed to plywood planking, which'd
                require some rengineering, she'd be "trailerable" in the sense that you
                could put her on a trailer and take her somewhere, or store her on a
                trailer, but the process wouldn't be for the faint of heart, and you
                couldn't just trundle her down to the river for an afternoon on the water.

                Selling boat plans isn't like selling donuts. We'd like to sell lots of
                plans, but we're not interested in selling plans to someone if the boat
                won't serve their purpose.

                On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 12:50:09 -0800, Jon K wrote:

                > ...
                > With respect to limited information about the Atkin design, I got the
                > sense that the current business is run by a widow or other relative
                > of one of the Atkins who may not have much additional information to
                > provide. Perhaps someone else on this forum can provide more details.
                >
                > Jon
                >
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "my48cj2a" <my48cj2a@...> wrote:
                >> ...
                >> I had thought about building the Atkins "Gwen O' the river" but
                > the
                >> Atkin & Co people have not been able to answer any of my questions
                >> about it. And when they did it was one sentence and that was
                > it. ???.
                >> If I am not worth the time as a paying customer why build the boat?
                >> Besides,I have seen pictures of the Tennessee in action. Nice
                > looking
                >> boat. I can't find any of the Gwen O' The River. If it could be a
                >> trailerd boat we would see more of them(their loss).
                > ...

                --
                John <jkohnen@...>
                As for myself, the wonderful sea charmed me from the first.
                <Joshua Slocum>
              • captjbturtle
                -hi again I m in Fort pierce for a couple more weeks and have built ba bolger power sharpie and am very familiar with the Tenessee, one used to be based in the
                Message 7 of 25 , Feb 6, 2009
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                  -hi again I'm in Fort pierce for a couple more weeks and have built ba
                  bolger power sharpie and am very familiar with the Tenessee, one used
                  to be based in the area, I think it is the onewhich was sold across the
                  state.Think I'll be cruising the Sebastian river next week in my Bolger
                  Bantam, if you want to talk Tenessee give me a call john bartlett 772
                  979 4293 be glad to point you to the local supplies etc, looking
                  forward to meting you--
                • Bruce Hallman
                  ... http://www.flickr.com/search/?s=int&ss=2&w=86125870%40N00&q=topazspyder
                  Message 8 of 25 , Feb 11, 2009
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                    > I will try to put up isometric renderings of the Topaz later...

                    http://www.flickr.com/search/?s=int&ss=2&w=86125870%40N00&q=topazspyder
                  • Harry James
                    Bruce I have been mulling over your comment a while back about the Topaz and the Tennessee having equal building times. I have a great deal of respect for your
                    Message 9 of 25 , Feb 11, 2009
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                      Bruce

                      I have been mulling over your comment a while back about the Topaz and
                      the Tennessee having equal building times. I have a great deal of
                      respect for your opinions as they are based on actual experience and you
                      have had some amazing fast builds. However I have always thought of the
                      Topaz as a great deal more complex than a Tennessee. I have always
                      thought the Topaz's more complex shape would make it harder to build.
                      You of course are deep in actually building one. In short I think of the
                      Tennessee as a boat I could build in a winter of spare time and the
                      Topaz as a two winter and maybe more boat.

                      HJ

                      Bruce Hallman wrote:
                      >> I will try to put up isometric renderings of the Topaz later...
                      >>
                      >
                      > http://www.flickr.com/search/?s=int&ss=2&w=86125870%40N00&q=topazspyder
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Bruce Hallman
                      ... Having modeled both boats, and having built 95% of a Topaz Spyder, I think they are very similar in scope. They both have basically the same number of
                      Message 10 of 25 , Feb 11, 2009
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                        On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
                        > Bruce
                        >
                        > I have been mulling over your comment a while back about the Topaz and
                        > the Tennessee having equal building times. I have a great deal of
                        > respect for your opinions as they are based on actual experience and you
                        > have had some amazing fast builds. However I have always thought of the
                        > Topaz as a great deal more complex than a Tennessee. I have always
                        > thought the Topaz's more complex shape would make it harder to build.
                        > You of course are deep in actually building one. In short I think of the
                        > Tennessee as a boat I could build in a winter of spare time and the
                        > Topaz as a two winter and maybe more boat.
                        >
                        > HJ

                        Having modeled both boats, and having built 95% of a Topaz Spyder, I
                        think they are very similar in scope. They both have basically the
                        same number of pieces, and very close to the same amount of wood,
                        finishing surface and painting. I would bet that the two boats have
                        nearly identical displacements.

                        The Topaz Spyder does have the twisted panels applied to the forefoot,
                        while the Tennessee has more complexity in the cabin work. The
                        twisted panels are not very much of a big deal to build, just one
                        piece of 1/4" plywood split longway and cutout to the shape on the
                        plans, sprung and nailed in place.

                        And in the end, I think that the Topaz Spyder looks more "boat like"
                        which would have a big $$$ difference on the resale market for used
                        boats. (While the boxy Tennessee has that "backyard plywood box boat"
                        look that evokes doubt and dogma among the "right minded boatsman" who
                        buy used boats. Also, my hunch is that the Topaz Spyder is a bit more
                        seaworthy. I suspect that the blunt bow of the Tennessee might dig,
                        broach and generally get in the way in rough water while crossing the
                        bar, etc. Both of the boats would have astonishing efficiency
                        cruising flat water.
                      • my48cj2a
                        Is Bolgers Office open this time of year? I have faxed them for three days and have not gotten a response. Is there other places to buy the plans? ... up ...
                        Message 11 of 25 , Feb 26, 2009
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                          Is Bolgers Office open this time of year? I have faxed them for three
                          days and have not gotten a response. Is there other places to buy the
                          plans?



                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Do you have the link to Dick Welch's Tennessee?
                          >
                          > http://www.boatdesign.com/jumps/dixtenn/Page.html
                          >
                          > HJ
                          >
                          > Chris Feller wrote:
                          > > I did a search for information on Tennessee at Duckworks and came
                          up
                          > > with these links.
                          > >
                          > >
                          http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/building/index.htm
                          > >
                          > >
                          http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/tennessee/index.ht
                          m
                          > >
                          > > http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/projects/tennessee/index.cfm
                          > >
                          > > Here is one of Topaz
                          > >
                          http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/00/DM1999/articles/topaz/index.htm
                          > >
                          > > Nice boats. I wish I had a building space large enough. I would
                          > > build a Tennessee if I did.
                          > >
                          > > Chris Feller
                          > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "my48cj2a" <my48cj2a@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >> I am going to build the Tennessee. I like the shallow draft. It
                          will be
                          > >> perfect for the Indian river lagoon Where I live. That old time
                          look is
                          > >> great. While I have been talking about other boat builds this
                          one will
                          > >> be first in line.
                          > >> I had thought about building the Atkins "Gwen O' the river" but
                          the
                          > >> Atkin & Co people have not been able to answer any of my
                          questions
                          > >> about it. And when they did it was one sentence and that was
                          it. ???.
                          > >> If I am not worth the time as a paying customer why build the
                          boat?
                          > >> Besides,I have seen pictures of the Tennessee in action. Nice
                          looking
                          > >> boat. I can't find any of the Gwen O' The River. If it could be
                          a
                          > >> trailerd boat we would see more of them(their loss). The
                          Tennessee can
                          > >> be,and it is a fine looking boat in and out of the water. What
                          got me
                          > >> hooked was the EstherMae and the Mangrove Mistress. Is anyone
                          else
                          > >> building one out there right now? If so please let me know I am
                          looking
                          > >> for all the info I can get. Any built of foam? Sternwheel?
                          Pictures?
                          > >> Thanks all.I will post the build.
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > Bolger rules!!!
                          > > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                          > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
                          flogging dead horses
                          > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
                          posts
                          > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                          > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                          01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                          > > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Ben
                          I tried back in fall and couldn t get them.I also wrote them and never had a return response.I was looking at the Tenny as well.
                          Message 12 of 25 , Feb 26, 2009
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                            I tried back in fall and couldn't get them.I also wrote them and never
                            had a return response.I was looking at the Tenny as well.


                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "my48cj2a" <my48cj2a@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Is Bolgers Office open this time of year? I have faxed them for three
                            > days and have not gotten a response. Is there other places to buy the
                            > plans?
                            >
                            >
                          • my48cj2a
                            So how do we go about getting plans? Does the moderator know? What if we need help with them? I have to have it built in a certain amount of time. I might have
                            Message 13 of 25 , Feb 27, 2009
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                              So how do we go about getting plans? Does the moderator know? What if
                              we need help with them? I have to have it built in a certain amount of
                              time. I might have to go with something where the plans are easier to
                              get. When do the customers count?




                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ben" <ben_2_go@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I tried back in fall and couldn't get them.I also wrote them and never
                              > had a return response.I was looking at the Tenny as well.
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "my48cj2a" <my48cj2a@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Is Bolgers Office open this time of year? I have faxed them for
                              three
                              > > days and have not gotten a response. Is there other places to buy
                              the
                              > > plans?
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Bruce Hallman
                              ... I know from experience that obtaining the plans is about 10% of the joy and 0.001% pain of the process called building a boat. If you are in a hurry to
                              Message 14 of 25 , Feb 27, 2009
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                                On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 8:15 AM, my48cj2a <my48cj2a@...> wrote:
                                > So how do we go about getting plans? Does the moderator know? What if
                                > we need help with them? I have to have it built in a certain amount of
                                > time. I might have to go with something where the plans are easier to
                                > get. When do the customers count?

                                I know from experience that obtaining the plans is about 10% of the
                                joy and 0.001% pain of the process called building a boat.

                                If you are in a hurry to get a boat, building a boat is almost
                                certainly not the fastest way (or cheapest way) to get a boat.

                                Phil Bolger is 82 years old, and he may be doing something else at the
                                moment. Though, historically he has a reputation of quick reply.
                                Another thing that happens occasionally is that he gets a question via
                                fax (but with no return fax #), or he gets a letter via postal mail
                                (with no return address). Also, if your question is complex,
                                sometimes he needs time to think of the answer. Or, if rude, he has
                                the option of ignoring you.

                                Buying plans gives you some right to ask questions about the design,
                                and to a lesser extent to ask questions about the building process.
                                But Bolger is a designer, not a builder, so questions about building
                                boats are better directed towards experienced boat builders.

                                If you are planning to build a boat, I strongly recommend building
                                scale boat models first. That way you can figure out the details
                                cheaply and quickly before embarking on the bigger and more expensive
                                full size project. This could even start not, while waiting for the
                                plans.
                              • Gene Tehansky
                                Anon, I just checked instantboats.com and biggest they have is Sneakeasy. ... so you would be sure not to miss it at the bottom of the message. Not many people
                                Message 15 of 25 , Feb 27, 2009
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                                  Anon,
                                  I just checked instantboats.com and biggest they have is Sneakeasy.
                                  You will need to go to Bolger directly. I pasted the information here:
                                  > Bolger rules!!!
                                  > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                                  > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
                                  > dead horses
                                  > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
                                  > posts
                                  > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                  > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                  > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                  > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  so you would be sure not to miss it at the bottom of the message.
                                  Not many people scroll down there...

                                  Mail has worked best for me although that gets lost also. He may be
                                  spry but he ain't young...

                                  Sincerely,
                                  Gene T.


                                  On 27 Feb, 2009, at 11:15 AM, my48cj2a wrote:

                                  > So how do we go about getting plans? Does the moderator know? What if
                                  > we need help with them? I have to have it built in a certain amount of
                                  > time. I might have to go with something where the plans are easier to
                                  > get. When do the customers count?
                                  >
                                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Ben" <ben_2_go@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I tried back in fall and couldn't get them.I also wrote them and
                                  > never
                                  > > had a return response.I was looking at the Tenny as well.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "my48cj2a" <my48cj2a@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Is Bolgers Office open this time of year? I have faxed them for
                                  > three
                                  > > > days and have not gotten a response. Is there other places to buy
                                  > the
                                  > > > plans?
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • my48cj2a
                                  I am not trying to sound rude. If I did offend I am sorry. That was not the intention. I am to used to my vendors jumping at the chance to sell a product
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Feb 27, 2009
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                                    I am not trying to sound rude. If I did offend I am sorry. That was
                                    not the intention. I am to used to my vendors jumping at the chance
                                    to sell a product during the hard times now. I am a fabricator I run
                                    with strict guidelines at my shop. My job is to get the job done now.
                                    That is why I am still in buisness and the others around me are
                                    folding up. I have to set aside time for my stuff between jobs. That
                                    time is on the way. I have to do something now or wait another year
                                    to get started. The other gentleman said he has been waiting since
                                    last fall for info.I left a fax number and 2 seperate e-mails. I
                                    can't bring myself to just send money without any information.Plus I
                                    do not know how much or what I get with the plans. Everything is one
                                    big question mark right now.



                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 8:15 AM, my48cj2a <my48cj2a@...> wrote:
                                    > > So how do we go about getting plans? Does the moderator know?
                                    What if
                                    > > we need help with them? I have to have it built in a certain
                                    amount of
                                    > > time. I might have to go with something where the plans are
                                    easier to
                                    > > get. When do the customers count?
                                    >
                                    > I know from experience that obtaining the plans is about 10% of the
                                    > joy and 0.001% pain of the process called building a boat.
                                    >
                                    > If you are in a hurry to get a boat, building a boat is almost
                                    > certainly not the fastest way (or cheapest way) to get a boat.
                                    >
                                    > Phil Bolger is 82 years old, and he may be doing something else at
                                    the
                                    > moment. Though, historically he has a reputation of quick reply.
                                    > Another thing that happens occasionally is that he gets a question
                                    via
                                    > fax (but with no return fax #), or he gets a letter via postal mail
                                    > (with no return address). Also, if your question is complex,
                                    > sometimes he needs time to think of the answer. Or, if rude, he has
                                    > the option of ignoring you.
                                    >
                                    > Buying plans gives you some right to ask questions about the design,
                                    > and to a lesser extent to ask questions about the building process.
                                    > But Bolger is a designer, not a builder, so questions about building
                                    > boats are better directed towards experienced boat builders.
                                    >
                                    > If you are planning to build a boat, I strongly recommend building
                                    > scale boat models first. That way you can figure out the details
                                    > cheaply and quickly before embarking on the bigger and more
                                    expensive
                                    > full size project. This could even start not, while waiting for the
                                    > plans.
                                    >
                                  • Bruce Hallman
                                    ... Fair enough. If you sent Phil Bolger 2 emails, don t hold your breath, as I don t think he uses email. Bolger doesn t really fit into a standard
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Feb 27, 2009
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                                      On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 1:17 PM, my48cj2a <my48cj2a@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I am not trying to sound rude. If I did offend I am sorry. That was
                                      > not the intention. I am to used to my vendors jumping at the chance
                                      > to sell a product during the hard times now. I am a fabricator I run
                                      > with strict guidelines at my shop. My job is to get the job done now.
                                      > That is why I am still in buisness and the others around me are
                                      > folding up. I have to set aside time for my stuff between jobs. That
                                      > time is on the way. I have to do something now or wait another year
                                      > to get started. The other gentleman said he has been waiting since
                                      > last fall for info.I left a fax number and 2 seperate e-mails. I
                                      > can't bring myself to just send money without any information.Plus I
                                      > do not know how much or what I get with the plans. Everything is one
                                      > big question mark right now.


                                      Fair enough. If you sent Phil Bolger 2 emails, don't hold your
                                      breath, as I don't think he uses email. Bolger doesn't really fit
                                      into a standard "vendor" model.

                                      It also is true that at least two people have been waiting years for
                                      commissioned designs, which is a shame of course. Commissions involve
                                      creativity, and sometimes finding the creative spark doesn't come
                                      easy. Especially if you are 82 years old making decisions about too
                                      many things to do and too little time to do it. I can see both sides
                                      of the issue, the buyers and the designers.

                                      If you have access to a library, the out of print 1980 book by Phil
                                      Bolger "Different Boats" has a chapter on the Tennessee design, which
                                      includes reduced sized images of the plans. ISBN 0-87742-134-X.
                                      Indeed, there is enough information shown in that book to build the
                                      boat.
                                    • gbship
                                      Was just relistening to the interview with Bolger from last fall, including the part that hasn t been posted on furledsails.com yet. He acknowledged they are
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Feb 28, 2009
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                                        Was just relistening to the interview with Bolger from last fall,
                                        including the part that hasn't been posted on furledsails.com yet. He
                                        acknowledged they are sometimes tardy in responding to
                                        correspondence, especially if they are travelling or caught up in
                                        something else. There apparently is a rather thick stack of
                                        correspondence from past years (I suspect from when they were tied up
                                        with the Navy project) that he said will never be answered because
                                        there isn't time. But he said they were keeping up with the current
                                        contacts except for delays from attending conferences, etc. I
                                        wouldn't count on a response to e-mail; I think they have it but may
                                        only rarely look at it. The preferred method of contact is a fax,
                                        with a promiment return fax number included. Apparently they get a
                                        fair amount of correspondence without adequate return contact
                                        information included. Don't count on the automatic return number that
                                        most fax machines include; I'm not sure theirs does that and Bolger
                                        was quite insistent about being redundant with contact information.
                                        (This is not a new phenomenon. When I first wrote him more 25 years
                                        about about doing what became design #459, I didn't hear anything
                                        back, having relied on the return address on the envelope as
                                        sufficient. I was about ready to buy another design when I wrote
                                        again, and got a very quick reply expressing interest in the project,
                                        saying he had lost my address, and including a mild admonition to be
                                        more repetitive with contact information.)

                                        Their priority in replying is to favor those who inquire about a
                                        specific design or a query on whether one of Bolger's existing
                                        designs will meet a certain set of requirements. It also helps if
                                        there's an indication that the boat will be built, and not just an
                                        idle inquiry about some feature or nuance. Phil and Susanne are not
                                        accepting any new design commissions at the moment, and may not
                                        respond to an inquiry for one; at least that's the impression I got.

                                        If you sent an inquiry and didn't hear back, or sent several over a
                                        short period, my advice is to wait a week or so and try again. You
                                        may have caught them out of town. They are certainly interested in
                                        selling from Bolger's extensive catalog of existing designs.

                                        Gary

                                        P.S. I think Bolger is 81, not 82. My recollection is his birthday
                                        was in November 1927. In the interview, done in early October, he
                                        referred to himself as 80 . . .


                                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 1:17 PM, my48cj2a <my48cj2a@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > I am not trying to sound rude. If I did offend I am sorry. That
                                        was
                                        > > not the intention. I am to used to my vendors jumping at the
                                        chance
                                        > > to sell a product during the hard times now. I am a fabricator I
                                        run
                                        > > with strict guidelines at my shop. My job is to get the job done
                                        now.
                                        > > That is why I am still in buisness and the others around me are
                                        > > folding up. I have to set aside time for my stuff between jobs.
                                        That
                                        > > time is on the way. I have to do something now or wait another
                                        year
                                        > > to get started. The other gentleman said he has been waiting since
                                        > > last fall for info.I left a fax number and 2 seperate e-mails. I
                                        > > can't bring myself to just send money without any
                                        information.Plus I
                                        > > do not know how much or what I get with the plans. Everything is
                                        one
                                        > > big question mark right now.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Fair enough. If you sent Phil Bolger 2 emails, don't hold your
                                        > breath, as I don't think he uses email. Bolger doesn't really fit
                                        > into a standard "vendor" model.
                                        >
                                        > It also is true that at least two people have been waiting years
                                        for
                                        > commissioned designs, which is a shame of course. Commissions
                                        involve
                                        > creativity, and sometimes finding the creative spark doesn't come
                                        > easy. Especially if you are 82 years old making decisions about too
                                        > many things to do and too little time to do it. I can see both
                                        sides
                                        > of the issue, the buyers and the designers.
                                        >
                                        > If you have access to a library, the out of print 1980 book by Phil
                                        > Bolger "Different Boats" has a chapter on the Tennessee design,
                                        which
                                        > includes reduced sized images of the plans. ISBN 0-87742-134-X.
                                        > Indeed, there is enough information shown in that book to build the
                                        > boat.
                                        >
                                      • stephen neal
                                        Write to him snail mail. Be brief and clear, put your return info in the letter. My experience has been that he always responds.
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Mar 3 4:42 PM
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                                          Write to him snail mail. Be brief and clear, put your return info in the letter.
                                          My experience has been that he always responds.
                                        • David Darnell
                                          Duck Works Mundoo River cruiser was originally based on the Tennessee.
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Mar 4 7:15 AM
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                                            Duck Works Mundoo River cruiser was originally based on the Tennessee.

                                            http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/mainpages/mundoo.php?PHPSESSID=5a2168fb42f2ef64899db8011ff61761
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