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Copyright and Boat Building...

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  • Gene Tehansky
    Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! Seems I have to write to Mr.
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 7, 2008
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      Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
      scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! Seems
      I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does that
      work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as proof.
      What have they prevented? If I wanted to pull a "Common Sense
      Designs" and run off copies and sell them I'm sure I could work that
      out without their help. So, Staples is now on that list I have just
      for their kind (and that makes me unhappy because I liked Staples).
      But the good news is, I got superior copies from a blueprint firm run
      by a young lady who used to live at a marina. The copies are sharper
      and more precise than Staples ever were, she did them while I waited,
      and the conversation was all about boats. She had 2 machines, one
      scanned and one printed. Inbetween she manipulated the photos on a
      computer. Way more sophisticated than a copier. So should I say
      thanks to Staples? Nah!

      This must be a new policy because they never asked before if what I
      wanted copied was copyrighted. And the drawings were stamped
      copyrighted. I need to look at my single handed schooner plans.

      Sincerely,
      Gene T.
    • Paul Esterle
      I applaud Staples for upholding copyright law and protecting intellectual property rights. I stopped making boating how-to videos because they were getting
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 7, 2008
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        I applaud Staples for upholding copyright law and protecting
        intellectual property rights. I stopped making boating "how-to" videos
        because they were getting ripped and copied. The blueprint place did you
        favor but what's to stop them from assisting a "Common Sense" style rip
        off? I'll have to stop shopping at Office Depot and start shopping at
        Staples...

        Paul Esterle
        Freelance Boating Writer
        Columbia 10.7, 26 & Matilda 20
        North East, MD.
        “Capt’n Pauley’s Boat Repairs & Upgrades”
        book at www.captnpauley.com
        home.comcast.net/~pesterle/



        Gene Tehansky wrote:
        >
        > Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
        > scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! Seems
        > I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does that
        > work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as proof.
        > What have they prevented? If I wanted to pull a "Common Sense
        > Designs" and run off copies and sell them I'm sure I could work that
        > out without their help. So, Staples is now on that list I have just
        > for their kind (and that makes me unhappy because I liked Staples).
        > But the good news is, I got superior copies from a blueprint firm run
        > by a young lady who used to live at a marina. The copies are sharper
        > and more precise than Staples ever were, she did them while I waited,
        > and the conversation was all about boats. She had 2 machines, one
        > scanned and one printed. Inbetween she manipulated the photos on a
        > computer. Way more sophisticated than a copier. So should I say
        > thanks to Staples? Nah!
        >
        > This must be a new policy because they never asked before if what I
        > wanted copied was copyrighted. And the drawings were stamped
        > copyrighted. I need to look at my single handed schooner plans.
        >
        > Sincerely,
        > Gene T.
        >
        >
      • Chris Crandall
        ... As far as I can tell, you re upset because a business followed the law. Do you want us to be upset too?
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 8, 2008
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          > Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
          > scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! Seems
          > I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does that
          > work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as proof.


          As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the law.
          Do you want us to be upset too?
        • Gene Tehansky
          I m only upset because I ve used them before with no issues and it was a royal pain in the arse to find the other place. What you do with Staples is not
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 8, 2008
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            I'm only upset because I've used them before with no issues and it
            was a royal pain in the arse to find the other place. What you do
            with Staples is not really my concern. What do you do when you build
            a boat from plans? Do you just use the originals in the shop? Do
            you think I am in the wrong to work from copies?

            Sincerely,
            Gene T.

            On 8 Nov, 2008, at 11:31 AM, Chris Crandall wrote:

            > > Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
            > > scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! Seems
            > > I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does that
            > > work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as proof.
            >
            > As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the
            > law.
            > Do you want us to be upset too?
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • mednak2000
            ... Seems ... that ... proof. ... law. ... I understand if someone was going to copy and sell plans,but i should be able to copy plans for my own use.
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 8, 2008
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
              > > scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO!
              Seems
              > > I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does
              that
              > > work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as
              proof.
              >
              >
              > As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the
              law.
              > Do you want us to be upset too?
              >
              I understand if someone was going to copy and sell plans,but i should
              be able to copy plans for my own use.
            • David C.
              I am a b to b magazine publisher, so I deal with copyright issues all the time (though I am not an expert in this very specific area concerning boat plans).
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 8, 2008
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                I am a b to b magazine publisher, so I deal with copyright issues all the time (though I am not an expert in this very specific area concerning boat plans).

                There are provisions within the copyright laws that allow for making single copies for personal use. Not wanting to get involved in what is a highly technical and very complex area of law, many copy facilities simply have a blanket rule that they will not copy anythingt that has a clearly marked copyright holder. If it were found that those copies were later used to distribute the work more widely, Staples could be found liable.

                If you were just getting regular photocopies, then Staples saved you from what could have been a boatbuilding disaster. Photocopiers -- even the good ones --almost never copy at exactly 100%. In my experience, even professional grade copiers reduce the original by about 2%. If you were to try to take measurements off of such copies, you would be significantly off the original measurements. This might be of little consequence for a small open boat, but could prove a major headache in a more complicated project, like Moicro.

                Real blue prints do not have this flaw.

                I have heard that it is common for boatbuillders to request a second copy of an individual sheet or two of plans, due to the originals being shop stained beyond use. In his book about the boat, the original builder of Bolger's "Blueberry" mentions he did just that. The designer (as did Bolger in this case), will usually offer the replacement copy at a substantial discount.

                David C
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > > Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
                > > > scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO!
                > Seems
                > > > I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does
                > that
                > > > work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as
                > proof.
                > >
                > >
                > > As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the
                > law.
                > > Do you want us to be upset too?
                > >
                > I understand if someone was going to copy and sell plans,but i should
                > be able to copy plans for my own use.
                >
                >
              • Douglas Pollard
                ... I am by no means able to write with any authority but I have fooled around with video and fair use a little. One of the problems is that to make a copy of
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 8, 2008
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                  mednak2000 wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>, Chris
                  > Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
                  > > > scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO!
                  > Seems
                  > > > I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does
                  > that
                  > > > work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as
                  > proof.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the
                  > law.
                  > > Do you want us to be upset too?
                  > >
                  > I understand if someone was going to copy and sell plans,but i should
                  > be able to copy plans for my own use.
                  >
                  >
                  I am by no means able to write with any authority but I have fooled
                  around with video and fair use a little. One of the problems is that to
                  make a copy of a drawing would seem to come under fair use laws. Seems
                  like you should be able to write and sign a paper, give it to Staples
                  saying what you intend to do with it and as long as you don't intend to
                  give it away or sell it you would be within your right of fair use. If
                  you buy a set of plans you are not buying a patented new kind of paper
                  with a new kind of laws. You are buying the right to build one boat
                  represented by the lines and figures on the drawing.
                  A simular thing is to copy a piece of music onto a CD that also
                  comes under fair use as long as you don't sell it or give it away. All
                  you have to do is show you bought it in the first place.
                  The problem is, government has passed a law saying that Walmart ,
                  Staples or anyone else copying for money can not copy anything
                  copyrighted and that would seem to have nothing to do with copyright
                  infringement.
                  This is my opinion for what it's worth and for what I have
                  charged for it.

                  Doug
                • Kristine Bennett
                  You know this same thing is seen in the homebuilt aircraft scene as well. Most designers say in their plans that you are allowed to make a SHOP copy of the
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 8, 2008
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                    You know this same thing is seen in the homebuilt aircraft scene as well. Most designers say in their plans that you are allowed to make a SHOP copy of the plans. I don't care how hard you try plans get mucked up.

                    I have also seen full knockoffs of full aircraft kits... Zenithair's 701 is a prime example

                    So what can we do as a builder? Only deal with the designer that holds the design rights or those that hold the rights to sell the plans.

                    It may also be a good idea for the designer to state that you can make a shop copy, that way things are covered.

                    Blessings Krissie

                    --- On Sat, 11/8/08, Gene Tehansky <goldranger02-boats@...> wrote:








                    I'm only upset because I've used them before with no issues and it

                    was a royal pain in the arse to find the other place. What you do

                    with Staples is not really my concern. What do you do when you build

                    a boat from plans? Do you just use the originals in the shop? Do

                    you think I am in the wrong to work from copies?



                    Sincerely,

                    Gene T.

























                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Bruce Hallman
                    ... The law is not so simple. http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html This is my opinion, of course, but I believe that backup photocopy duplication of the
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 8, 2008
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                      > As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the law.
                      > Do you want us to be upset too?

                      The "law" is not so simple.

                      http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

                      This is my opinion, of course, but I believe that backup photocopy
                      duplication of the plans to protect the original so you can scribble
                      on the copies them during construction is plainly 'fair use' and would
                      be allowed per law.
                    • Pierce Nichols
                      What he wanted to do, make a backup or working copy, is 100% legal. Staples was following an extremist interpretation of copyright law that has no basis in
                      Message 10 of 26 , Nov 8, 2008
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                        What he wanted to do, make a backup or working copy, is 100% legal. Staples
                        was following an extremist interpretation of copyright law that has no basis
                        in statute or case law.

                        -p

                        On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 8:31 AM, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:

                        > > Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
                        > > scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! Seems
                        > > I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does that
                        > > work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as proof.
                        >
                        >
                        > As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the law.
                        > Do you want us to be upset too?
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Bolger rules!!!
                        > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
                        > horses
                        > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                        > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                        > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                        > (978) 282-1349
                        > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo!
                        > Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • garrywarber
                        Paul, I have some how-to stuff on CD s, and they have a security lock on them so they can t be copied. Maybe if you went to burnin -disc s? I suppose someone
                        Message 11 of 26 , Nov 8, 2008
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                          Paul,

                          I have some how-to stuff on CD's, and they have a security lock on them
                          so they can't be copied. Maybe if you went to burnin'-disc's? I
                          suppose someone will find a way around that, or has...

                          Garry



                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Paul Esterle <pesterle@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I applaud Staples for upholding copyright law and protecting
                          > intellectual property rights. I stopped making boating "how-to" videos
                          > because they were getting ripped and copied. The blueprint place did
                          you
                          > favor but what's to stop them from assisting a "Common Sense" style
                          rip
                          > off? I'll have to stop shopping at Office Depot and start shopping at
                          > Staples...
                          >
                          > Paul Esterle
                          > Freelance Boating Writer
                          > Columbia 10.7, 26 & Matilda 20
                          > North East, MD.
                          > "Capt'n Pauley's Boat Repairs & Upgrades"
                          > book at www.captnpauley.com
                          > home.comcast.net/~pesterle/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Gene Tehansky wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Well, I went to Staples to get my Micro plans copied so I could
                          > > scribble all over them and get epoxy on them and they said NO! Seems
                          > > I have to write to Mr. Bolger and get permission! Now how does that
                          > > work! Think they will take one of his handwritten letters as proof.
                          > > What have they prevented? If I wanted to pull a "Common Sense
                          > > Designs" and run off copies and sell them I'm sure I could work that
                          > > out without their help. So, Staples is now on that list I have just
                          > > for their kind (and that makes me unhappy because I liked Staples).
                          > > But the good news is, I got superior copies from a blueprint firm
                          run
                          > > by a young lady who used to live at a marina. The copies are sharper
                          > > and more precise than Staples ever were, she did them while I
                          waited,
                          > > and the conversation was all about boats. She had 2 machines, one
                          > > scanned and one printed. Inbetween she manipulated the photos on a
                          > > computer. Way more sophisticated than a copier. So should I say
                          > > thanks to Staples? Nah!
                          > >
                          > > This must be a new policy because they never asked before if what I
                          > > wanted copied was copyrighted. And the drawings were stamped
                          > > copyrighted. I need to look at my single handed schooner plans.
                          > >
                          > > Sincerely,
                          > > Gene T.
                          > >
                          > >
                          >




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • John Kohnen
                          Making copies for your own use in the shop is surely fair use. I think Staples went too far. ... -- John Why should we take advice
                          Message 12 of 26 , Nov 9, 2008
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                            Making copies for your own use in the shop is surely "fair use." I think
                            Staples went too far.

                            On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 19:44:12 -0800, Paul E wrote:

                            > I applaud Staples for upholding copyright law and protecting
                            > intellectual property rights. I stopped making boating "how-to" videos
                            > because they were getting ripped and copied. The blueprint place did you
                            > favor but what's to stop them from assisting a "Common Sense" style rip
                            > off? I'll have to stop shopping at Office Depot and start shopping at
                            > Staples...

                            --
                            John <jkohnen@...>
                            Why should we take advice on sex from the Pope? If he knows
                            anything about it, he shouldn't. <G. B. Shaw>
                          • John Kohnen
                            There isn t a darn thing illegal about making copies for your own use, as long as you re not selling them or giving them away. It fits into the notion of fair
                            Message 13 of 26 , Nov 9, 2008
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                              There isn't a darn thing illegal about making copies for your own use, as
                              long as you're not selling them or giving them away. It fits into the
                              notion of "fair use." I don't like intellectual property pirates either,
                              but that's not what Staples was refusing to do.

                              On Sat, 08 Nov 2008 08:31:56 -0800, Chris C wrote:

                              As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the law.
                              > Do you want us to be upset too?

                              --
                              John <jkohnen@...>
                              It is better to have loafed and lost than never to have loafed
                              at all. <James Thurber>
                            • Paul Esterle
                              So what magic formula does Staples apply to determine fair use ? Has anyone bothered to contact Bolger or any other plans seller to encourage them to add a
                              Message 14 of 26 , Nov 9, 2008
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                                So what magic formula does Staples apply to determine "fair use"? Has
                                anyone bothered to contact Bolger or any other plans seller to encourage
                                them to add a "fair use" statement to the plans? Nope, I thought not.
                                Far better to castigate the big nasty corporation for attempting, as
                                best they can, to follow the rules...

                                Paul Esterle
                                Freelance Boating Writer
                                Columbia 10.7, 26 & Matilda 20
                                North East, MD.
                                “Capt’n Pauley’s Boat Repairs & Upgrades”
                                book at www.captnpauley.com
                                home.comcast.net/~pesterle/



                                John Kohnen wrote:
                                > Making copies for your own use in the shop is surely "fair use." I think
                                > Staples went too far.
                                >
                                > On Fri, 07 Nov 2008 19:44:12 -0800, Paul E wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >> I applaud Staples for upholding copyright law and protecting
                                >> intellectual property rights. I stopped making boating "how-to" videos
                                >> because they were getting ripped and copied. The blueprint place did you
                                >> favor but what's to stop them from assisting a "Common Sense" style rip
                                >> off? I'll have to stop shopping at Office Depot and start shopping at
                                >> Staples...
                                >>
                                >
                                >
                              • Steven Rose
                                Since were on the topic; what If a person had gone to the local Marina and took the lines of a random boat to make up their own plans. Perhaps those lines
                                Message 15 of 26 , Nov 9, 2008
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                                  Since were on the topic; what If a person had gone to the local
                                  Marina and took the lines of a random boat to make up their own plans.
                                  Perhaps those lines happen to be from a Bolger Boat, then it seems to be all
                                  ok! Yet to copy a piece of paper with the same information is a great evil
                                  to many in the boating world. I suspect if Bolger or anyone else had never
                                  taken a line or an idea off someone else's design in the first place we
                                  would still be building Dugout Canoes and Pot boats. Law is different in
                                  every country anyway so it really doesn't apply, I think using common sense
                                  and respect is more important. Don't sell Bolgers plans for profit, give him
                                  recognition for the great work he has done. Staples, just has blanket rules
                                  that I suspect only part of the staff follow anyway, go to five Staples and
                                  I suspect you would have the copies.

                                  Steve


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                  John Kohnen
                                  Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:06 AM
                                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Copyright and Boat Building...

                                  There isn't a darn thing illegal about making copies for your own use, as
                                  long as you're not selling them or giving them away. It fits into the
                                  notion of "fair use." I don't like intellectual property pirates either,
                                  but that's not what Staples was refusing to do.

                                  On Sat, 08 Nov 2008 08:31:56 -0800, Chris C wrote:

                                  As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the law.
                                  > Do you want us to be upset too?

                                  --
                                  John <jkohnen@...>
                                  It is better to have loafed and lost than never to have loafed
                                  at all. <James Thurber>

                                  ------------------------------------

                                  Bolger rules!!!
                                  - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                                  - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
                                  horses
                                  - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                  - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                  - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                                  (978) 282-1349
                                  - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo!
                                  Groups Links




                                  No virus found in this incoming message.
                                  Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                                  Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
                                  2:14 PM
                                • Pierce Nichols
                                  Depends on the year the boat was designed. If it was designed before the passage of (IIRC) the Sonny Bono Copyright Act (which, in general, is nothing but
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Nov 9, 2008
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                                    Depends on the year the boat was designed. If it was designed before the
                                    passage of (IIRC) the Sonny Bono Copyright Act (which, in general, is
                                    nothing but corporate welfare for Disney et al) in the mid 1990s, it is
                                    unprotected. If afterwards, it is protected. Now, if you think about it,
                                    this makes a certain amount of sense -- Steve has the first part precisely
                                    right, and in addition, relatively few people can build a boat from a raw
                                    set of lines, and those who can have to do most of the designer's task in
                                    order to do so.

                                    The real problem with copyright law, as now conceived in the US, is a larger
                                    version of the problem Steve identified with advances in hull shape. Cory
                                    Doctorow goes over it better and in far more detail than I'm up to here:
                                    http://www.locusmag.com/Features/2008/11/cory-doctorow-why-i-copyfight.html.

                                    -p


                                    On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Steven Rose <paradox_4@...> wrote:

                                    >
                                    > Since were on the topic; what If a person had gone to the local
                                    > Marina and took the lines of a random boat to make up their own plans.
                                    > Perhaps those lines happen to be from a Bolger Boat, then it seems to be
                                    > all
                                    > ok! Yet to copy a piece of paper with the same information is a great evil
                                    > to many in the boating world. I suspect if Bolger or anyone else had never
                                    > taken a line or an idea off someone else's design in the first place we
                                    > would still be building Dugout Canoes and Pot boats. Law is different in
                                    > every country anyway so it really doesn't apply, I think using common sense
                                    > and respect is more important. Don't sell Bolgers plans for profit, give
                                    > him
                                    > recognition for the great work he has done. Staples, just has blanket rules
                                    > that I suspect only part of the staff follow anyway, go to five Staples and
                                    > I suspect you would have the copies.
                                    >
                                    > Steve
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                    > John Kohnen
                                    > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:06 AM
                                    > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Copyright and Boat Building...
                                    >
                                    > There isn't a darn thing illegal about making copies for your own use, as
                                    > long as you're not selling them or giving them away. It fits into the
                                    > notion of "fair use." I don't like intellectual property pirates either,
                                    > but that's not what Staples was refusing to do.
                                    >
                                    > On Sat, 08 Nov 2008 08:31:56 -0800, Chris C wrote:
                                    >
                                    > As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed the law.
                                    > > Do you want us to be upset too?
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > John <jkohnen@...>
                                    > It is better to have loafed and lost than never to have loafed
                                    > at all. <James Thurber>
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Bolger rules!!!
                                    > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                                    > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
                                    > horses
                                    > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                    > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                    > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                                    > (978) 282-1349
                                    > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo!
                                    > Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                    > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                                    > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date: 11/9/2008
                                    > 2:14 PM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Bolger rules!!!
                                    > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                                    > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
                                    > horses
                                    > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                    > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                    > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
                                    > (978) 282-1349
                                    > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo!
                                    > Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Peter Belenky
                                    ... The Digital Millennium Copyright Act makes the answer quite explicit: Title V: Vessel Hull Design Protection Act DMCA Title V added sections 1301 through
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Nov 11, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Rose" <paradox_4@...> wrote:

                                      > Since were on the topic; what If a person had gone to the local
                                      > Marina and took the lines of a random boat to make up their own plans.


                                      The Digital Millennium Copyright Act makes the answer quite explicit:

                                      Title V: Vessel Hull Design Protection Act

                                      DMCA Title V added sections 1301 through 1332 to add a sui generis
                                      protection for boat hull designs. Boat hull designs were not previously
                                      considered covered under copyright law because they are useful articles
                                      whose form cannot be cleanly separated from their function.

                                      http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/1301.html
                                      <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/1301.html>

                                      In brief, designs must be registered within two years of first
                                      publication to receive protection that lasts for ten years. Older
                                      designs or those that are not registered are unprotected. Boats may be
                                      built freely from published plans or duplicated from existing hulls
                                      unless they are registered in accordance with this law.

                                      Construction of hulls from unpublished plans supplied by architects to
                                      clients is governed by contract, not by copyright law. The contract
                                      will typically say that the plans remain the property of the architect
                                      and that their use is licensed for construction of only one hull.



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Peter Belenky
                                      ... The Digital Millennium Copyright Act makes the answer quite explicit: Title V: Vessel Hull Design Protection Act DMCA Title V added sections 1301 through
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Nov 11, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Rose" <paradox_4@...> wrote:

                                        > Since were on the topic; what If a person had gone to the local
                                        > Marina and took the lines of a random boat to make up their own plans.


                                        The Digital Millennium Copyright Act makes the answer quite explicit:

                                        Title V: Vessel Hull Design Protection Act

                                        DMCA Title V added sections 1301 through 1332 to add a sui generis
                                        protection for boat hull designs. Boat hull designs were not previously
                                        considered covered under copyright law because they are useful articles
                                        whose form cannot be cleanly separated from their function.

                                        http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/1301.html
                                        <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/1301.html>

                                        In brief, designs must be registered within two years of first
                                        publication to receive protection that lasts for ten years. Older
                                        designs or those that are not registered are unprotected. Boats may be
                                        built freely from published plans or duplicated from existing hulls
                                        unless they are registered in accordance with this law.

                                        Construction of hulls from unpublished plans supplied by architects to
                                        clients is governed by contract, not by copyright law. The contract
                                        will typically say that the plans remain the property of the architect
                                        and that their use is licensed for construction of only one hull.



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • rmdeming
                                        Sound like a good topic for a poll. Personally, I build from the originals, but see nothing wrong with making a working copy so that you have the original just
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Nov 12, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Sound like a good topic for a poll.

                                          Personally, I build from the originals, but see nothing wrong with
                                          making a working copy so that you have the original just in case you
                                          cna not see the dimension through the coffee rings ;-)



                                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Pierce Nichols" <rocketgeek@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Depends on the year the boat was designed. If it was designed
                                          before the
                                          > passage of (IIRC) the Sonny Bono Copyright Act (which, in general,
                                          is
                                          > nothing but corporate welfare for Disney et al) in the mid 1990s,
                                          it is
                                          > unprotected. If afterwards, it is protected. Now, if you think
                                          about it,
                                          > this makes a certain amount of sense -- Steve has the first part
                                          precisely
                                          > right, and in addition, relatively few people can build a boat from
                                          a raw
                                          > set of lines, and those who can have to do most of the designer's
                                          task in
                                          > order to do so.
                                          >
                                          > The real problem with copyright law, as now conceived in the US, is
                                          a larger
                                          > version of the problem Steve identified with advances in hull
                                          shape. Cory
                                          > Doctorow goes over it better and in far more detail than I'm up to
                                          here:
                                          > http://www.locusmag.com/Features/2008/11/cory-doctorow-why-i-
                                          copyfight.html.
                                          >
                                          > -p
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Steven Rose <paradox_4@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > > Since were on the topic; what If a person had gone to the
                                          local
                                          > > Marina and took the lines of a random boat to make up their own
                                          plans.
                                          > > Perhaps those lines happen to be from a Bolger Boat, then it
                                          seems to be
                                          > > all
                                          > > ok! Yet to copy a piece of paper with the same information is a
                                          great evil
                                          > > to many in the boating world. I suspect if Bolger or anyone else
                                          had never
                                          > > taken a line or an idea off someone else's design in the first
                                          place we
                                          > > would still be building Dugout Canoes and Pot boats. Law is
                                          different in
                                          > > every country anyway so it really doesn't apply, I think using
                                          common sense
                                          > > and respect is more important. Don't sell Bolgers plans for
                                          profit, give
                                          > > him
                                          > > recognition for the great work he has done. Staples, just has
                                          blanket rules
                                          > > that I suspect only part of the staff follow anyway, go to five
                                          Staples and
                                          > > I suspect you would have the copies.
                                          > >
                                          > > Steve
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On
                                          Behalf Of
                                          > > John Kohnen
                                          > > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:06 AM
                                          > > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Copyright and Boat Building...
                                          > >
                                          > > There isn't a darn thing illegal about making copies for your own
                                          use, as
                                          > > long as you're not selling them or giving them away. It fits into
                                          the
                                          > > notion of "fair use." I don't like intellectual property pirates
                                          either,
                                          > > but that's not what Staples was refusing to do.
                                          > >
                                          > > On Sat, 08 Nov 2008 08:31:56 -0800, Chris C wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed
                                          the law.
                                          > > > Do you want us to be upset too?
                                          > >
                                          > > --
                                          > > John <jkohnen@...>
                                          > > It is better to have loafed and lost than never to have loafed
                                          > > at all. <James Thurber>
                                          > >
                                          > > ------------------------------------
                                          > >
                                          > > Bolger rules!!!
                                          > > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                                          > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
                                          flogging dead
                                          > > horses
                                          > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
                                          posts
                                          > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                          > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                          01930, Fax:
                                          > > (978) 282-1349
                                          > > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          Yahoo!
                                          > > Groups Links
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                          > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                                          > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date:
                                          11/9/2008
                                          > > 2:14 PM
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ------------------------------------
                                          > >
                                          > > Bolger rules!!!
                                          > > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                                          > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
                                          flogging dead
                                          > > horses
                                          > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
                                          posts
                                          > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                          > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                          01930, Fax:
                                          > > (978) 282-1349
                                          > > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          Yahoo!
                                          > > Groups Links
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                        • Bruce Hallman
                                          ... Personally, I build from the originals, and a funny thing... reading the drawings is much more important during the first parts of the build. By the time
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Nov 12, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 7:08 AM, rmdeming <rmdeming@...> wrote:
                                            > Sound like a good topic for a poll.
                                            >
                                            > Personally, I build from the originals,

                                            Personally, I build from the originals, and a funny thing... reading
                                            the drawings is much more important during the first parts of the
                                            build. By the time I get to the latter parts, when the drawing are
                                            faded, tattered and unreadable...then the drawing is not so important.
                                          • Bryant Owen
                                            I ve had good success with using an aerosol spray protectant. While it might slightly darken the paper - not a bad thing if you read them in natural sunlight -
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Nov 12, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              I've had good success with using an aerosol spray protectant. While it
                                              might slightly darken the paper - not a bad thing if you read them in
                                              natural sunlight - the paper is rendered moisture and dirt resistant.
                                              It's not perfect but gives you a chance to recover from an OOPS moment
                                              like spilling coffee on the plans. For an example of this type of
                                              product see
                                              http://www.lyndist.com/lynproductsheets/sec_aerosols/acrylic_coating.htm
                                              or http://tinyurl.com/5hlzuo

                                              Bryant


                                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "rmdeming" <rmdeming@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Sound like a good topic for a poll.
                                              >
                                              > Personally, I build from the originals, but see nothing wrong with
                                              > making a working copy so that you have the original just in case you
                                              > cna not see the dimension through the coffee rings ;-)
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Pierce Nichols" <rocketgeek@>
                                              > wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Depends on the year the boat was designed. If it was designed
                                              > before the
                                              > > passage of (IIRC) the Sonny Bono Copyright Act (which, in general,
                                              > is
                                              > > nothing but corporate welfare for Disney et al) in the mid 1990s,
                                              > it is
                                              > > unprotected. If afterwards, it is protected. Now, if you think
                                              > about it,
                                              > > this makes a certain amount of sense -- Steve has the first part
                                              > precisely
                                              > > right, and in addition, relatively few people can build a boat from
                                              > a raw
                                              > > set of lines, and those who can have to do most of the designer's
                                              > task in
                                              > > order to do so.
                                              > >
                                              > > The real problem with copyright law, as now conceived in the US, is
                                              > a larger
                                              > > version of the problem Steve identified with advances in hull
                                              > shape. Cory
                                              > > Doctorow goes over it better and in far more detail than I'm up to
                                              > here:
                                              > > http://www.locusmag.com/Features/2008/11/cory-doctorow-why-i-
                                              > copyfight.html.
                                              > >
                                              > > -p
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Steven Rose <paradox_4@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Since were on the topic; what If a person had gone to the
                                              > local
                                              > > > Marina and took the lines of a random boat to make up their own
                                              > plans.
                                              > > > Perhaps those lines happen to be from a Bolger Boat, then it
                                              > seems to be
                                              > > > all
                                              > > > ok! Yet to copy a piece of paper with the same information is a
                                              > great evil
                                              > > > to many in the boating world. I suspect if Bolger or anyone else
                                              > had never
                                              > > > taken a line or an idea off someone else's design in the first
                                              > place we
                                              > > > would still be building Dugout Canoes and Pot boats. Law is
                                              > different in
                                              > > > every country anyway so it really doesn't apply, I think using
                                              > common sense
                                              > > > and respect is more important. Don't sell Bolgers plans for
                                              > profit, give
                                              > > > him
                                              > > > recognition for the great work he has done. Staples, just has
                                              > blanket rules
                                              > > > that I suspect only part of the staff follow anyway, go to five
                                              > Staples and
                                              > > > I suspect you would have the copies.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Steve
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On
                                              > Behalf Of
                                              > > > John Kohnen
                                              > > > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:06 AM
                                              > > > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Copyright and Boat Building...
                                              > > >
                                              > > > There isn't a darn thing illegal about making copies for your own
                                              > use, as
                                              > > > long as you're not selling them or giving them away. It fits into
                                              > the
                                              > > > notion of "fair use." I don't like intellectual property pirates
                                              > either,
                                              > > > but that's not what Staples was refusing to do.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > On Sat, 08 Nov 2008 08:31:56 -0800, Chris C wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > > As far as I can tell, you're upset because a business followed
                                              > the law.
                                              > > > > Do you want us to be upset too?
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --
                                              > > > John <jkohnen@>
                                              > > > It is better to have loafed and lost than never to have loafed
                                              > > > at all. <James Thurber>
                                              > > >
                                              > > > ------------------------------------
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Bolger rules!!!
                                              > > > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                                              > > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
                                              > flogging dead
                                              > > > horses
                                              > > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
                                              > posts
                                              > > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                              > > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                              > 01930, Fax:
                                              > > > (978) 282-1349
                                              > > > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Yahoo!
                                              > > > Groups Links
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                              > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                                              > > > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1778 - Release Date:
                                              > 11/9/2008
                                              > > > 2:14 PM
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > ------------------------------------
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Bolger rules!!!
                                              > > > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                                              > > > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or
                                              > flogging dead
                                              > > > horses
                                              > > > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
                                              > posts
                                              > > > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                              > > > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                                              > 01930, Fax:
                                              > > > (978) 282-1349
                                              > > > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Yahoo!
                                              > > > Groups Links
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • c o'donnell
                                              Technically, it s perfectly legal to take lines and reproduce a hull. Anyone who doesn t make a backup copy of plans to work from is just silly. ... === craig
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Nov 12, 2008
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Technically, it's perfectly legal to take lines and reproduce a hull.

                                                Anyone who doesn't make a backup copy of plans to work from is just
                                                silly.

                                                On Nov 12, 2008, at 10:08 AM, rmdeming wrote:

                                                > http://www.locusmag.com/Features/2008/11/cory-doctorow-why-i-
                                                > copyfight.html.



                                                === craig o'donnell
                                                dadadata@...
                                                Box 232 Betterton Md 21610





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