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RE: [bolger] Re: PT decking?

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  • Steven Rose
    Many books I have read mention that MDO (Dura-ply in Canada) is also an excellent product for boat building. Apparently it s made for outdoor signs, I have
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 1, 2008
      Many books I have read mention that MDO (Dura-ply in Canada) is also an
      excellent product for boat building. Apparently it's made for outdoor signs,
      I have looked at it but have never had the chance to try it out. Just a
      thought :-)



      Steve



      _____

      From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      dnjost
      Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:17 AM
      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [bolger] Re: PT decking?



      Great insight and advice. I am going with 5/4 Doug Fir as i have found
      a local yard with lots in stock.

      I will experiment with a June Bug in the spring with the SYP and see
      how it does. the glue up I did will be primed and painted and left to
      the elements all winter clamped under stress to the deck. Will report
      back in March.

      thanks
      David



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    • davy riggs
      Chris Are you sure about the glue thing? I was told a few years ago that marine ply and exterior used the same glue. Do you know what the difference is? I
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 1, 2008
        Chris

        Are you sure about the glue thing? I was told a few
        years ago that marine ply and exterior used the same
        glue. Do you know what the difference is?

        I was at my neighborhood Lowe's the other day and the
        most likely-looking stuff they had featured a sign
        saying "only for use in sheltered applications" (or
        something to that effect). Has the whole industry
        changed with out me being notified?

        Dave


        I have given two cousins to war and I stand ready to sacrifice my wife's brother. -Artemus Ward
      • dnjost
        I put the lay up to the test today. I stepped on the glued 1X1 PT strips and low and behold I am now the proud owner of two tomato stakes. The pieces parted
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 1, 2008
          I put the lay up to the test today. I stepped on the glued 1X1 PT
          strips and low and behold I am now the proud owner of two tomato stakes.

          The pieces parted nicely at the glue line with minimal damage to the
          surrounding wood.

          In my honest opinion PT Southern Yellow Pine is not a suitable
          boatbuilding product.
        • Fred Schumacher
          If you live in the north, the pressure treated wood you get could be Red Pine (pinus resinosa, also called Norway Pine). This is lighter than SYP and nearly as
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 1, 2008
            If you live in the north, the pressure treated wood you get could be Red
            Pine (pinus resinosa, also called Norway Pine). This is lighter than SYP and
            nearly as strong as Douglas Fir. It takes pressure treating beautifully and
            doesn't need holes poked into it, like White Pine. Red Pine is an extremely
            tough wood. My logger friend says you can skid a log and wrap it around a
            tree and it won't break.

            Fred Schumacher

            On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 5:33 PM, dnjost <davidjost@...> wrote:

            > While building my 18' Workskiff, I came across some very nice pressure
            > treated Southern Yellow Pine that seems just the right stuff for the
            > chines. I am gluing up a test piece to see how happy it takes to
            > epoxy. Will file a report this week with an update.
            >
            > Has anyone tried this?
            >
            > David Jost
            > "working between the raindrops of Kyle"
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Giuliano Girometta
            Recently I salvaged several boards from the demolition of a 85 year old building. The wood look like some kind of pine but I was not sure because i never seen
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 1, 2008
              Recently I salvaged several boards from the demolition of a 85 year old building.
              The wood look like some kind of pine but I was not sure because i never seen anthing like that. So I consulted with someone expert in woods.
              The wood is "Southern Yellow Pine" and that is the real one.
              The guy explained to me that today's SYP is different because now they alter the genetic of the seeds in order to obtain fast growing threes.
              The old grow is much strongher and rot resistant that the new one and he also told me to be ready to re-sharp the saw blades, jointer and planer knifes very often if I am going to use such wood.
              In fact, the SYP is classified as a good replacement for white oak.
              I am planning to use such wood for the frames of my Atkin Unsanctioned.
              I also discovered in a local museum that SYP was the major shipbuilding lumber here in Texas in the 1800 and even during WW1 some cargo ships were constructed with SYP and pieces of vessels constructed in the late 1800 survived somewhere till about 15 years ago before entering the display cabinet at the museum.
              About epoxy and treated SYP, according to the report and tests performed by the US Forest Service the bonding is good as with untreated wood, but the treated wood must be dry and not impregnated as most  commonly found at the retail stores. After the wood is dry, the weight also return to the original value. (Some lumberyards carry dry PT).
               
              Giuliano 

              --- On Wed, 10/1/08, Fred Schumacher <fredschum@...> wrote:

              From: Fred Schumacher <fredschum@...>
              Subject: Re: [bolger] PT decking?
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 9:02 PM






              If you live in the north, the pressure treated wood you get could be Red
              Pine (pinus resinosa, also called Norway Pine). This is lighter than SYP and
              nearly as strong as Douglas Fir. It takes pressure treating beautifully and
              doesn't need holes poked into it, like White Pine. Red Pine is an extremely
              tough wood. My logger friend says you can skid a log and wrap it around a
              tree and it won't break.

              Fred Schumacher

              On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 5:33 PM, dnjost <davidjost@verizon. net> wrote:

              > While building my 18' Workskiff, I came across some very nice pressure
              > treated Southern Yellow Pine that seems just the right stuff for the
              > chines. I am gluing up a test piece to see how happy it takes to
              > epoxy. Will file a report this week with an update.
              >
              > Has anyone tried this?
              >
              > David Jost
              > "working between the raindrops of Kyle"
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
              Let me try to get this across again. In just the last few years they changed the chemistry by federal law for PT lumber. Old and new chemistry reacted with
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 1, 2008
                Let me try to get this across again. In just the last few years they
                changed the chemistry by federal law for PT lumber. Old and new
                chemistry reacted with glue bonding of any type and the new with most
                fasteners. Both chemistrys cycle salts to the surface with moisture
                content changes.

                MDO is great for boat building if it is a good grade of MDO good thing
                to check on. Exterior ply has notmaly thicker iner plys and thinner
                surface plyes. Marine has typicaly even thickness plys no voids on iner
                plys more plys for thickness and more of the same glue. MDO of a good
                grade will have even thickness iner plys a thin outer ply and the
                overlay good cores and even more of the same glue as marine. HDO is
                like MDO but the overlay is harder smoth and bonds poorly.
              • Chris Crandall
                Guiliano: What you are calling SYP is longleaf pine. SYP is a collection of many different kinds of pine trees (jack pine, slash pine, etc.). Longleaf pine can
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 2, 2008
                  Guiliano:

                  What you are calling SYP is longleaf pine. SYP is a collection of many
                  different kinds of pine trees (jack pine, slash pine, etc.). Longleaf
                  pine can be categorized as SYP, and old-growth longleaf pine is a real
                  treasure of a wood. Save it and use it wisely. It will take epoxy.

                  Modern SYP is less good, and modern longleaf pine tends to be less good,
                  too, in part because it is induced, as you say, to grow more quickly.
                  This is part genetic, and part the way it is treated by foresters. The
                  same is true these days with Douglas firin the opposite part of the
                  country. The old growth stuff is amazing, the new stuff is pretty OK.



                  > Posted by: "Giuliano Girometta" ggboat1@... ggboat1 Date: Wed
                  > Oct 1, 2008 7:49 pm ((PDT))
                  >
                  > Recently I salvaged several boards from the demolition of a 85 year
                  > old building. The wood look like some kind of pine but I was not sure
                  > because i never seen anthing like that. So I consulted with someone
                  > expert in woods. The wood is "Southern Yellow Pine" and that is the
                  > real one. The guy explained to me that today's SYP is different
                  > because now they alter the genetic of the seeds in order to obtain
                  > fast growing threes. The old grow is much strongher and rot resistant
                  > that the new one and he also told me to be ready to re-sharp the saw
                  > blades, jointer and planer knifes very often if I am going to use
                  > such wood. In fact, the SYP is classified as a good replacement for
                  > white oak. I am planning to use such wood for the frames of my Atkin
                  > Unsanctioned. I also discovered in a local museum that SYP was the
                  > major shipbuilding lumber here in Texas in the 1800 and even during
                  > WW1 some cargo ships were constructed with SYP and pieces of vessels
                  > constructed in the late 1800 survived somewhere till about 15 years
                  > ago before entering the display cabinet at the museum. About epoxy
                  > and treated SYP, according to the report and tests performed by the
                  > US Forest Service the bonding is good as with untreated wood, but the
                  > treated wood must be dry and not impregnated as most commonly found
                  > at the retail stores. After the wood is dry, the weight also return
                  > to the original value. (Some lumberyards carry dry PT).
                  >
                  > Giuliano
                • Giuliano Girometta
                  Thank you for the correction. This is what I was meaning but I forgot to type correctly and I omit the world longleaf . That wood is like gold for me, is nice
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 2, 2008
                    Thank you for the correction. This is what I was meaning but I forgot to type correctly and I omit the world "longleaf".
                    That wood is like gold for me, is nice straight grained and was left for 85 years in a perfect enviroment (the attic of a Sunday School building at my church and the roof was always keept in good leak proof conditions since the construction). I wish there was more time to salvage more lumber but someone donated the money for the disposal containers and for the buldozzer so all went very quick and I got only one day to salvage the most I can, while all the remaining went in splinters max 24" long the very next day. (Really very sad to loose so much good wood) Unfortunatly the environmentalist found some traces of asbestos in the joint compound on the sheetrock and therefore the manual demolition was going to be extremely expensive if done by a contractor.
                    I removed as much material I can with the help of two friends but at a certain point we were forced to leave the building in a hurry when we feel the ceiling dropping down about five inches under our feet.
                     
                    Giuliano

                    --- On Thu, 10/2/08, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:

                    From: Chris Crandall <crandall@...>
                    Subject: [bolger] Re: Re: PT decking?
                    To: "No Reply" <notify-dg-bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                    Cc: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, October 2, 2008, 8:53 PM






                    Guiliano:

                    What you are calling SYP is longleaf pine. SYP is a collection of many
                    different kinds of pine trees (jack pine, slash pine, etc.). Longleaf
                    pine can be categorized as SYP, and old-growth longleaf pine is a real
                    treasure of a wood. Save it and use it wisely. It will take epoxy.

                    Modern SYP is less good, and modern longleaf pine tends to be less good,
                    too, in part because it is induced, as you say, to grow more quickly.
                    This is part genetic, and part the way it is treated by foresters. The
                    same is true these days with Douglas firin the opposite part of the
                    country. The old growth stuff is amazing, the new stuff is pretty OK.

                    > Posted by: "Giuliano Girometta" ggboat1@yahoo. com ggboat1 Date: Wed
                    > Oct 1, 2008 7:49 pm ((PDT))
                    >
                    > Recently I salvaged several boards from the demolition of a 85 year
                    > old building. The wood look like some kind of pine but I was not sure
                    > because i never seen anthing like that. So I consulted with someone
                    > expert in woods. The wood is "Southern Yellow Pine" and that is the
                    > real one. The guy explained to me that today's SYP is different
                    > because now they alter the genetic of the seeds in order to obtain
                    > fast growing threes. The old grow is much strongher and rot resistant
                    > that the new one and he also told me to be ready to re-sharp the saw
                    > blades, jointer and planer knifes very often if I am going to use
                    > such wood. In fact, the SYP is classified as a good replacement for
                    > white oak. I am planning to use such wood for the frames of my Atkin
                    > Unsanctioned. I also discovered in a local museum that SYP was the
                    > major shipbuilding lumber here in Texas in the 1800 and even during
                    > WW1 some cargo ships were constructed with SYP and pieces of vessels
                    > constructed in the late 1800 survived somewhere till about 15 years
                    > ago before entering the display cabinet at the museum. About epoxy
                    > and treated SYP, according to the report and tests performed by the
                    > US Forest Service the bonding is good as with untreated wood, but the
                    > treated wood must be dry and not impregnated as most commonly found
                    > at the retail stores. After the wood is dry, the weight also return
                    > to the original value. (Some lumberyards carry dry PT).
                    >
                    > Giuliano


















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • .Randy Powell
                    I don t want to sound like a wood snob but there are a number of great choices for boat building without using substandard home products. I have removed
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 4, 2008
                      I don't want to sound like a wood snob but there are a number of great choices for boat building without using substandard "home" products. I have removed Mahogany and Douglas Fir that is 60 and 70 years old and reinstalled it in boats. Not to say that theses are the only good selections, but if you are spending all of this time and effort on a build why try to cut corners and save a bit of money only to have your boat rot out much quicker.
                      Any of the Mahogany's, D Fir, Long Leaf Yellow Pine for all you Southern builders, white Oak, and Black Locusts just to name a few. Wooden Boats has a recent article on the water Resistance of the Mahogany's.
                      No job is worth doing by half
                      Randy
                      --- On Sun, 9/28/08, dnjost <davidjost@...> wrote:

                      From: dnjost <davidjost@...>
                      Subject: [bolger] PT decking?
                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      Received: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 10:33 PM






                      While building my 18' Workskiff, I came across some very nice pressure
                      treated Southern Yellow Pine that seems just the right stuff for the
                      chines. I am gluing up a test piece to see how happy it takes to
                      epoxy. Will file a report this week with an update.

                      Has anyone tried this?

                      David Jost
                      "working between the raindrops of Kyle"
















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                    • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                      Well said I am restoring a 1962 Lightning that is built with Mahogany and Ceder and it is the Mahogany where the rot is. Just as important is care after build
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 4, 2008
                        Well said I am restoring a 1962 Lightning that is built with Mahogany
                        and Ceder and it is the Mahogany where the rot is. Just as important
                        is care after build in the life of a boat for the way the boat is
                        built and of what. Wetboats need to be taken cate of differentlythen
                        dry boats and system for building and sealing are also different.
                        What works for one will shorten the life of the other.

                        Jon

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, ".Randy Powell" <rpspiritwaters@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > I don't want to sound like a wood snob but there are a number of
                        great choices for boat building without using substandard "home"
                        products. I have removed Mahogany and Douglas Fir that is 60 and 70
                        years old and reinstalled it in boats. Not to say that theses are the
                        only good selections, but if you are spending all of this time and
                        effort on a build why try to cut corners and save a bit of money only
                        to have your boat rot out much quicker.
                        > Any of the Mahogany's, D Fir, Long Leaf Yellow Pine for all you
                        Southern builders, white Oak, and Black Locusts just to name a few.
                        Wooden Boats has a recent article on the water Resistance of the
                        Mahogany's.
                        > No job is worth doing by half
                        > Randy
                        > --- On Sun, 9/28/08, dnjost <davidjost@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: dnjost <davidjost@...>
                        > Subject: [bolger] PT decking?
                        > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        > Received: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 10:33 PM
                      • .Randy Powell
                        You do have a very good point. Most of the boats I work on are Muskoka based, these owners spare no expense at storage and repair, that said proper coatings,
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 4, 2008
                          You do have a very good point. Most of the boats I work on are Muskoka based, these owners spare no expense at storage and repair, that said proper coatings, careful storage and attention to keeping your dry with in reason will extend your boats life. 1963 you say, that would make it 46 I dare say it seems to of survived OK with only traditional coatings.
                          Randy 
                          --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Jon & Wanda(Tink) <windyjon@...> wrote:

                          From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) <windyjon@...>
                          Subject: [bolger] Re: PT decking?
                          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                          Received: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 6:43 PM






                          Well said I am restoring a 1962 Lightning that is built with Mahogany
                          and Ceder and it is the Mahogany where the rot is. Just as important
                          is care after build in the life of a boat for the way the boat is
                          built and of what. Wetboats need to be taken cate of differentlythen
                          dry boats and system for building and sealing are also different.
                          What works for one will shorten the life of the other.

                          Jon

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, ".Randy Powell" <rpspiritwaters@ ...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > I don't want to sound like a wood snob but there are a number of
                          great choices for boat building without using substandard "home"
                          products. I have removed Mahogany and Douglas Fir that is 60 and 70
                          years old and reinstalled it in boats. Not to say that theses are the
                          only good selections, but if you are spending all of this time and
                          effort on a build why try to cut corners and save a bit of money only
                          to have your boat rot out much quicker.
                          > Any of the Mahogany's, D Fir, Long Leaf Yellow Pine for all you
                          Southern builders, white Oak, and Black Locusts just to name a few.
                          Wooden Boats has a recent article on the water Resistance of the
                          Mahogany's.
                          > No job is worth doing by half
                          > Randy
                          > --- On Sun, 9/28/08, dnjost <davidjost@. ..> wrote:
                          >
                          > From: dnjost <davidjost@. ..>
                          > Subject: [bolger] PT decking?
                          > To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
                          > Received: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 10:33 PM
















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                        • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                          It has had many poor repairs and some poor storage in the past. It was inside in the dry for almost ten years and some planks with poor grain where split
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 4, 2008
                            It has had many poor repairs and some poor storage in the past. It was
                            inside in the dry for almost ten years and some planks with poor grain
                            where split pritty bad. The paint was marine with a high copper bottom
                            paint but the bright work was all but gone. Sister ribs where poorly
                            done and rot not tepaired or stoped. Think how long it would have
                            lasted if taken care of properly rather then half way. There are
                            lightnings 50, 60 and nearly 70 years old in good shape.

                            Jon

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, ".Randy Powell" <rpspiritwaters@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > You do have a very good point. Most of the boats I work on are
                            Muskoka based, these owners spare no expense at storage and repair,
                            that said proper coatings, careful storage and attention to keeping
                            your dry with in reason will extend your boats life. 1963 you say, that
                            would make it 46 I dare say it seems to of survived OK with only
                            traditional coatings.
                            > Randy 
                          • .Randy Powell
                            Jon, Do you have any pictures for us all to enjoy??? Randy ... From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) Subject: [bolger] Re: PT decking? To:
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 6, 2008
                              Jon,
                              Do you have any pictures for us all to enjoy???
                              Randy

                              --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Jon & Wanda(Tink) <windyjon@...> wrote:

                              From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) <windyjon@...>
                              Subject: [bolger] Re: PT decking?
                              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                              Received: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 12:33 AM






                              It has had many poor repairs and some poor storage in the past. It was
                              inside in the dry for almost ten years and some planks with poor grain
                              where split pritty bad. The paint was marine with a high copper bottom
                              paint but the bright work was all but gone. Sister ribs where poorly
                              done and rot not tepaired or stoped. Think how long it would have
                              lasted if taken care of properly rather then half way. There are
                              lightnings 50, 60 and nearly 70 years old in good shape.

                              Jon

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, ".Randy Powell" <rpspiritwaters@ ...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > You do have a very good point. Most of the boats I work on are
                              Muskoka based, these owners spare no expense at storage and repair,
                              that said proper coatings, careful storage and attention to keeping
                              your dry with in reason will extend your boats life. 1963 you say, that
                              would make it 46 I dare say it seems to of survived OK with only
                              traditional coatings.
                              > Randy 
















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                            • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                              Need to do some more work now that the days are getting shorter and I have more time. Need to do some updateing too.
                              Message 14 of 29 , Oct 6, 2008
                                Need to do some more work now that the days are getting shorter and I
                                have more time. Need to do some updateing too.
                                http://www.flickr.com/photos/jons_boat_building/sets/72157602709911781
                                /

                                Jon


                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, ".Randy Powell" <rpspiritwaters@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Jon,
                                > Do you have any pictures for us all to enjoy???
                                > Randy
                                >
                                > --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Jon & Wanda(Tink) <windyjon@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) <windyjon@...>
                                > Subject: [bolger] Re: PT decking?
                                > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                > Received: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 12:33 AM
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