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Re: [bolger] Re: PT decking?

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  • Patrick Crockett
    FWIW, the first boat I built was made of strips ripped from 5/4 PT decking. After a tree fell over and smashed the deck behind our house, a boat seemed like a
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 1, 2008
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      FWIW, the first boat I built was made of strips ripped from 5/4" PT
      decking. After a tree fell over and smashed the deck behind our house, a
      boat seemed like a better destination for the old deck than the
      landfill. The 14' boat weighed a ton (well ... more than one wants a 14'
      boat to weigh, anyway). After a couple voyages to prove that it didn't
      sink, it landed in a pre-school playground (with holes in the bottom to
      let the rain out).

      So far as I know, it is still there 17 years later, providing voyages to
      Australia and other destinations in the "Continent Song". Edge-nailed
      the strips with galvanized finishing nails, glued with liquid nails,
      painted with latex, minimal thought to priming or whatever. The wood was
      well-seasoned -- probably at least 8 years in the north Louisiana sun
      and rain. May have been repainted, but not in the first few years.

      Patrick

      dnjost wrote:
      > The test so far is positive. I have a real good glue bond between to
      > overlapped 8' 1.5 x 1.5" strips. side to side motion cannot break the
      > bond. I will develop a torsion test to see if somehow I can get the
      > glue to break with maximum torque applied vertically to the glue line.
      > I can see the Mythbusters folks having some fun with this.
      >
      > The caveat about painting is probably true, but I bet if I epoxy the
      > surfaces throroughly I can then paint over it. However, after all that
      > work I would probably be better off just locating some southern yellow
      > pine that is untreated. It is not available at my local central
      > Massachusetts lumber yards. For what it's worth my Pointy Skiff with
      > external chines made out of common spf boards with good ply is going on
      > it's 25th year with only a couple of rot spots showing up in the past
      > few years.
      >
      > David Jost
      >
      >
    • Chris Crandall
      ... David: The difference between AB Marine Ply and ACX is NOT rot resistance (or at least, not much). The difference is in the quality of the glue, and the
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 1, 2008
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        > 3c. > Posted by: "dnjost" davidjost@... dnjost
        > Date: Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:09 am ((PDT))
        >
        > Thanks to all for your thoughts. I have located 16' clear 5/4 SYP
        > boards no more than 30 miles from home. They also stock AB Marine Ply.
        > at $60 per sheet for 1/2". No need to risk playing with the pressure
        > treated stuff or using ACX for the bottom, rot should not be such an
        > issue now.


        David: The difference between "AB Marine Ply" and ACX is NOT rot
        resistance (or at least, not much). The difference is in the quality of
        the glue, and the relative number of voids within the plys (and how
        these voids are treated). OK, and B is cleaner and nicer than C.

        Your worries about rot are not over for the plywood, and I wouldn't
        treat either plywood different--they are both reasonably rot resistant,
        and your concerns are going to be at the joints and joins, where fresh
        water will be the issue.

        You are likely find AB marine ply superior wood in many ways, and worth
        the extra $$$'s. But you still must be vigilant about rot.

        See Jim Michalak's next-most recent website posting on rot:

        http://www.jimsboats.com/15sep08.htm

        You can see my personal grief in photos there.
      • Steven Rose
        Many books I have read mention that MDO (Dura-ply in Canada) is also an excellent product for boat building. Apparently it s made for outdoor signs, I have
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 1, 2008
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          Many books I have read mention that MDO (Dura-ply in Canada) is also an
          excellent product for boat building. Apparently it's made for outdoor signs,
          I have looked at it but have never had the chance to try it out. Just a
          thought :-)



          Steve



          _____

          From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          dnjost
          Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:17 AM
          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [bolger] Re: PT decking?



          Great insight and advice. I am going with 5/4 Doug Fir as i have found
          a local yard with lots in stock.

          I will experiment with a June Bug in the spring with the SYP and see
          how it does. the glue up I did will be primed and painted and left to
          the elements all winter clamped under stress to the deck. Will report
          back in March.

          thanks
          David



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        • davy riggs
          Chris Are you sure about the glue thing? I was told a few years ago that marine ply and exterior used the same glue. Do you know what the difference is? I
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 1, 2008
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            Chris

            Are you sure about the glue thing? I was told a few
            years ago that marine ply and exterior used the same
            glue. Do you know what the difference is?

            I was at my neighborhood Lowe's the other day and the
            most likely-looking stuff they had featured a sign
            saying "only for use in sheltered applications" (or
            something to that effect). Has the whole industry
            changed with out me being notified?

            Dave


            I have given two cousins to war and I stand ready to sacrifice my wife's brother. -Artemus Ward
          • dnjost
            I put the lay up to the test today. I stepped on the glued 1X1 PT strips and low and behold I am now the proud owner of two tomato stakes. The pieces parted
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 1, 2008
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              I put the lay up to the test today. I stepped on the glued 1X1 PT
              strips and low and behold I am now the proud owner of two tomato stakes.

              The pieces parted nicely at the glue line with minimal damage to the
              surrounding wood.

              In my honest opinion PT Southern Yellow Pine is not a suitable
              boatbuilding product.
            • Fred Schumacher
              If you live in the north, the pressure treated wood you get could be Red Pine (pinus resinosa, also called Norway Pine). This is lighter than SYP and nearly as
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 1, 2008
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                If you live in the north, the pressure treated wood you get could be Red
                Pine (pinus resinosa, also called Norway Pine). This is lighter than SYP and
                nearly as strong as Douglas Fir. It takes pressure treating beautifully and
                doesn't need holes poked into it, like White Pine. Red Pine is an extremely
                tough wood. My logger friend says you can skid a log and wrap it around a
                tree and it won't break.

                Fred Schumacher

                On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 5:33 PM, dnjost <davidjost@...> wrote:

                > While building my 18' Workskiff, I came across some very nice pressure
                > treated Southern Yellow Pine that seems just the right stuff for the
                > chines. I am gluing up a test piece to see how happy it takes to
                > epoxy. Will file a report this week with an update.
                >
                > Has anyone tried this?
                >
                > David Jost
                > "working between the raindrops of Kyle"
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Giuliano Girometta
                Recently I salvaged several boards from the demolition of a 85 year old building. The wood look like some kind of pine but I was not sure because i never seen
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 1, 2008
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                  Recently I salvaged several boards from the demolition of a 85 year old building.
                  The wood look like some kind of pine but I was not sure because i never seen anthing like that. So I consulted with someone expert in woods.
                  The wood is "Southern Yellow Pine" and that is the real one.
                  The guy explained to me that today's SYP is different because now they alter the genetic of the seeds in order to obtain fast growing threes.
                  The old grow is much strongher and rot resistant that the new one and he also told me to be ready to re-sharp the saw blades, jointer and planer knifes very often if I am going to use such wood.
                  In fact, the SYP is classified as a good replacement for white oak.
                  I am planning to use such wood for the frames of my Atkin Unsanctioned.
                  I also discovered in a local museum that SYP was the major shipbuilding lumber here in Texas in the 1800 and even during WW1 some cargo ships were constructed with SYP and pieces of vessels constructed in the late 1800 survived somewhere till about 15 years ago before entering the display cabinet at the museum.
                  About epoxy and treated SYP, according to the report and tests performed by the US Forest Service the bonding is good as with untreated wood, but the treated wood must be dry and not impregnated as most  commonly found at the retail stores. After the wood is dry, the weight also return to the original value. (Some lumberyards carry dry PT).
                   
                  Giuliano 

                  --- On Wed, 10/1/08, Fred Schumacher <fredschum@...> wrote:

                  From: Fred Schumacher <fredschum@...>
                  Subject: Re: [bolger] PT decking?
                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 9:02 PM






                  If you live in the north, the pressure treated wood you get could be Red
                  Pine (pinus resinosa, also called Norway Pine). This is lighter than SYP and
                  nearly as strong as Douglas Fir. It takes pressure treating beautifully and
                  doesn't need holes poked into it, like White Pine. Red Pine is an extremely
                  tough wood. My logger friend says you can skid a log and wrap it around a
                  tree and it won't break.

                  Fred Schumacher

                  On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 5:33 PM, dnjost <davidjost@verizon. net> wrote:

                  > While building my 18' Workskiff, I came across some very nice pressure
                  > treated Southern Yellow Pine that seems just the right stuff for the
                  > chines. I am gluing up a test piece to see how happy it takes to
                  > epoxy. Will file a report this week with an update.
                  >
                  > Has anyone tried this?
                  >
                  > David Jost
                  > "working between the raindrops of Kyle"
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                  Let me try to get this across again. In just the last few years they changed the chemistry by federal law for PT lumber. Old and new chemistry reacted with
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 1, 2008
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                    Let me try to get this across again. In just the last few years they
                    changed the chemistry by federal law for PT lumber. Old and new
                    chemistry reacted with glue bonding of any type and the new with most
                    fasteners. Both chemistrys cycle salts to the surface with moisture
                    content changes.

                    MDO is great for boat building if it is a good grade of MDO good thing
                    to check on. Exterior ply has notmaly thicker iner plys and thinner
                    surface plyes. Marine has typicaly even thickness plys no voids on iner
                    plys more plys for thickness and more of the same glue. MDO of a good
                    grade will have even thickness iner plys a thin outer ply and the
                    overlay good cores and even more of the same glue as marine. HDO is
                    like MDO but the overlay is harder smoth and bonds poorly.
                  • Chris Crandall
                    Guiliano: What you are calling SYP is longleaf pine. SYP is a collection of many different kinds of pine trees (jack pine, slash pine, etc.). Longleaf pine can
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 2, 2008
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                      Guiliano:

                      What you are calling SYP is longleaf pine. SYP is a collection of many
                      different kinds of pine trees (jack pine, slash pine, etc.). Longleaf
                      pine can be categorized as SYP, and old-growth longleaf pine is a real
                      treasure of a wood. Save it and use it wisely. It will take epoxy.

                      Modern SYP is less good, and modern longleaf pine tends to be less good,
                      too, in part because it is induced, as you say, to grow more quickly.
                      This is part genetic, and part the way it is treated by foresters. The
                      same is true these days with Douglas firin the opposite part of the
                      country. The old growth stuff is amazing, the new stuff is pretty OK.



                      > Posted by: "Giuliano Girometta" ggboat1@... ggboat1 Date: Wed
                      > Oct 1, 2008 7:49 pm ((PDT))
                      >
                      > Recently I salvaged several boards from the demolition of a 85 year
                      > old building. The wood look like some kind of pine but I was not sure
                      > because i never seen anthing like that. So I consulted with someone
                      > expert in woods. The wood is "Southern Yellow Pine" and that is the
                      > real one. The guy explained to me that today's SYP is different
                      > because now they alter the genetic of the seeds in order to obtain
                      > fast growing threes. The old grow is much strongher and rot resistant
                      > that the new one and he also told me to be ready to re-sharp the saw
                      > blades, jointer and planer knifes very often if I am going to use
                      > such wood. In fact, the SYP is classified as a good replacement for
                      > white oak. I am planning to use such wood for the frames of my Atkin
                      > Unsanctioned. I also discovered in a local museum that SYP was the
                      > major shipbuilding lumber here in Texas in the 1800 and even during
                      > WW1 some cargo ships were constructed with SYP and pieces of vessels
                      > constructed in the late 1800 survived somewhere till about 15 years
                      > ago before entering the display cabinet at the museum. About epoxy
                      > and treated SYP, according to the report and tests performed by the
                      > US Forest Service the bonding is good as with untreated wood, but the
                      > treated wood must be dry and not impregnated as most commonly found
                      > at the retail stores. After the wood is dry, the weight also return
                      > to the original value. (Some lumberyards carry dry PT).
                      >
                      > Giuliano
                    • Giuliano Girometta
                      Thank you for the correction. This is what I was meaning but I forgot to type correctly and I omit the world longleaf . That wood is like gold for me, is nice
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 2, 2008
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                        Thank you for the correction. This is what I was meaning but I forgot to type correctly and I omit the world "longleaf".
                        That wood is like gold for me, is nice straight grained and was left for 85 years in a perfect enviroment (the attic of a Sunday School building at my church and the roof was always keept in good leak proof conditions since the construction). I wish there was more time to salvage more lumber but someone donated the money for the disposal containers and for the buldozzer so all went very quick and I got only one day to salvage the most I can, while all the remaining went in splinters max 24" long the very next day. (Really very sad to loose so much good wood) Unfortunatly the environmentalist found some traces of asbestos in the joint compound on the sheetrock and therefore the manual demolition was going to be extremely expensive if done by a contractor.
                        I removed as much material I can with the help of two friends but at a certain point we were forced to leave the building in a hurry when we feel the ceiling dropping down about five inches under our feet.
                         
                        Giuliano

                        --- On Thu, 10/2/08, Chris Crandall <crandall@...> wrote:

                        From: Chris Crandall <crandall@...>
                        Subject: [bolger] Re: Re: PT decking?
                        To: "No Reply" <notify-dg-bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                        Cc: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, October 2, 2008, 8:53 PM






                        Guiliano:

                        What you are calling SYP is longleaf pine. SYP is a collection of many
                        different kinds of pine trees (jack pine, slash pine, etc.). Longleaf
                        pine can be categorized as SYP, and old-growth longleaf pine is a real
                        treasure of a wood. Save it and use it wisely. It will take epoxy.

                        Modern SYP is less good, and modern longleaf pine tends to be less good,
                        too, in part because it is induced, as you say, to grow more quickly.
                        This is part genetic, and part the way it is treated by foresters. The
                        same is true these days with Douglas firin the opposite part of the
                        country. The old growth stuff is amazing, the new stuff is pretty OK.

                        > Posted by: "Giuliano Girometta" ggboat1@yahoo. com ggboat1 Date: Wed
                        > Oct 1, 2008 7:49 pm ((PDT))
                        >
                        > Recently I salvaged several boards from the demolition of a 85 year
                        > old building. The wood look like some kind of pine but I was not sure
                        > because i never seen anthing like that. So I consulted with someone
                        > expert in woods. The wood is "Southern Yellow Pine" and that is the
                        > real one. The guy explained to me that today's SYP is different
                        > because now they alter the genetic of the seeds in order to obtain
                        > fast growing threes. The old grow is much strongher and rot resistant
                        > that the new one and he also told me to be ready to re-sharp the saw
                        > blades, jointer and planer knifes very often if I am going to use
                        > such wood. In fact, the SYP is classified as a good replacement for
                        > white oak. I am planning to use such wood for the frames of my Atkin
                        > Unsanctioned. I also discovered in a local museum that SYP was the
                        > major shipbuilding lumber here in Texas in the 1800 and even during
                        > WW1 some cargo ships were constructed with SYP and pieces of vessels
                        > constructed in the late 1800 survived somewhere till about 15 years
                        > ago before entering the display cabinet at the museum. About epoxy
                        > and treated SYP, according to the report and tests performed by the
                        > US Forest Service the bonding is good as with untreated wood, but the
                        > treated wood must be dry and not impregnated as most commonly found
                        > at the retail stores. After the wood is dry, the weight also return
                        > to the original value. (Some lumberyards carry dry PT).
                        >
                        > Giuliano


















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • .Randy Powell
                        I don t want to sound like a wood snob but there are a number of great choices for boat building without using substandard home products. I have removed
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 4, 2008
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                          I don't want to sound like a wood snob but there are a number of great choices for boat building without using substandard "home" products. I have removed Mahogany and Douglas Fir that is 60 and 70 years old and reinstalled it in boats. Not to say that theses are the only good selections, but if you are spending all of this time and effort on a build why try to cut corners and save a bit of money only to have your boat rot out much quicker.
                          Any of the Mahogany's, D Fir, Long Leaf Yellow Pine for all you Southern builders, white Oak, and Black Locusts just to name a few. Wooden Boats has a recent article on the water Resistance of the Mahogany's.
                          No job is worth doing by half
                          Randy
                          --- On Sun, 9/28/08, dnjost <davidjost@...> wrote:

                          From: dnjost <davidjost@...>
                          Subject: [bolger] PT decking?
                          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                          Received: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 10:33 PM






                          While building my 18' Workskiff, I came across some very nice pressure
                          treated Southern Yellow Pine that seems just the right stuff for the
                          chines. I am gluing up a test piece to see how happy it takes to
                          epoxy. Will file a report this week with an update.

                          Has anyone tried this?

                          David Jost
                          "working between the raindrops of Kyle"
















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                        • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                          Well said I am restoring a 1962 Lightning that is built with Mahogany and Ceder and it is the Mahogany where the rot is. Just as important is care after build
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 4, 2008
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                            Well said I am restoring a 1962 Lightning that is built with Mahogany
                            and Ceder and it is the Mahogany where the rot is. Just as important
                            is care after build in the life of a boat for the way the boat is
                            built and of what. Wetboats need to be taken cate of differentlythen
                            dry boats and system for building and sealing are also different.
                            What works for one will shorten the life of the other.

                            Jon

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, ".Randy Powell" <rpspiritwaters@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > I don't want to sound like a wood snob but there are a number of
                            great choices for boat building without using substandard "home"
                            products. I have removed Mahogany and Douglas Fir that is 60 and 70
                            years old and reinstalled it in boats. Not to say that theses are the
                            only good selections, but if you are spending all of this time and
                            effort on a build why try to cut corners and save a bit of money only
                            to have your boat rot out much quicker.
                            > Any of the Mahogany's, D Fir, Long Leaf Yellow Pine for all you
                            Southern builders, white Oak, and Black Locusts just to name a few.
                            Wooden Boats has a recent article on the water Resistance of the
                            Mahogany's.
                            > No job is worth doing by half
                            > Randy
                            > --- On Sun, 9/28/08, dnjost <davidjost@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > From: dnjost <davidjost@...>
                            > Subject: [bolger] PT decking?
                            > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            > Received: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 10:33 PM
                          • .Randy Powell
                            You do have a very good point. Most of the boats I work on are Muskoka based, these owners spare no expense at storage and repair, that said proper coatings,
                            Message 13 of 29 , Oct 4, 2008
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                              You do have a very good point. Most of the boats I work on are Muskoka based, these owners spare no expense at storage and repair, that said proper coatings, careful storage and attention to keeping your dry with in reason will extend your boats life. 1963 you say, that would make it 46 I dare say it seems to of survived OK with only traditional coatings.
                              Randy 
                              --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Jon & Wanda(Tink) <windyjon@...> wrote:

                              From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) <windyjon@...>
                              Subject: [bolger] Re: PT decking?
                              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                              Received: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 6:43 PM






                              Well said I am restoring a 1962 Lightning that is built with Mahogany
                              and Ceder and it is the Mahogany where the rot is. Just as important
                              is care after build in the life of a boat for the way the boat is
                              built and of what. Wetboats need to be taken cate of differentlythen
                              dry boats and system for building and sealing are also different.
                              What works for one will shorten the life of the other.

                              Jon

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, ".Randy Powell" <rpspiritwaters@ ...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > I don't want to sound like a wood snob but there are a number of
                              great choices for boat building without using substandard "home"
                              products. I have removed Mahogany and Douglas Fir that is 60 and 70
                              years old and reinstalled it in boats. Not to say that theses are the
                              only good selections, but if you are spending all of this time and
                              effort on a build why try to cut corners and save a bit of money only
                              to have your boat rot out much quicker.
                              > Any of the Mahogany's, D Fir, Long Leaf Yellow Pine for all you
                              Southern builders, white Oak, and Black Locusts just to name a few.
                              Wooden Boats has a recent article on the water Resistance of the
                              Mahogany's.
                              > No job is worth doing by half
                              > Randy
                              > --- On Sun, 9/28/08, dnjost <davidjost@. ..> wrote:
                              >
                              > From: dnjost <davidjost@. ..>
                              > Subject: [bolger] PT decking?
                              > To: bolger@yahoogroups. com
                              > Received: Sunday, September 28, 2008, 10:33 PM
















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                            • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                              It has had many poor repairs and some poor storage in the past. It was inside in the dry for almost ten years and some planks with poor grain where split
                              Message 14 of 29 , Oct 4, 2008
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                                It has had many poor repairs and some poor storage in the past. It was
                                inside in the dry for almost ten years and some planks with poor grain
                                where split pritty bad. The paint was marine with a high copper bottom
                                paint but the bright work was all but gone. Sister ribs where poorly
                                done and rot not tepaired or stoped. Think how long it would have
                                lasted if taken care of properly rather then half way. There are
                                lightnings 50, 60 and nearly 70 years old in good shape.

                                Jon

                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, ".Randy Powell" <rpspiritwaters@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > You do have a very good point. Most of the boats I work on are
                                Muskoka based, these owners spare no expense at storage and repair,
                                that said proper coatings, careful storage and attention to keeping
                                your dry with in reason will extend your boats life. 1963 you say, that
                                would make it 46 I dare say it seems to of survived OK with only
                                traditional coatings.
                                > Randy 
                              • .Randy Powell
                                Jon, Do you have any pictures for us all to enjoy??? Randy ... From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) Subject: [bolger] Re: PT decking? To:
                                Message 15 of 29 , Oct 6, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Jon,
                                  Do you have any pictures for us all to enjoy???
                                  Randy

                                  --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Jon & Wanda(Tink) <windyjon@...> wrote:

                                  From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) <windyjon@...>
                                  Subject: [bolger] Re: PT decking?
                                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  Received: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 12:33 AM






                                  It has had many poor repairs and some poor storage in the past. It was
                                  inside in the dry for almost ten years and some planks with poor grain
                                  where split pritty bad. The paint was marine with a high copper bottom
                                  paint but the bright work was all but gone. Sister ribs where poorly
                                  done and rot not tepaired or stoped. Think how long it would have
                                  lasted if taken care of properly rather then half way. There are
                                  lightnings 50, 60 and nearly 70 years old in good shape.

                                  Jon

                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups. com, ".Randy Powell" <rpspiritwaters@ ...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > You do have a very good point. Most of the boats I work on are
                                  Muskoka based, these owners spare no expense at storage and repair,
                                  that said proper coatings, careful storage and attention to keeping
                                  your dry with in reason will extend your boats life. 1963 you say, that
                                  would make it 46 I dare say it seems to of survived OK with only
                                  traditional coatings.
                                  > Randy 
















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                                • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                                  Need to do some more work now that the days are getting shorter and I have more time. Need to do some updateing too.
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Oct 6, 2008
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                                    Need to do some more work now that the days are getting shorter and I
                                    have more time. Need to do some updateing too.
                                    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jons_boat_building/sets/72157602709911781
                                    /

                                    Jon


                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, ".Randy Powell" <rpspiritwaters@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Jon,
                                    > Do you have any pictures for us all to enjoy???
                                    > Randy
                                    >
                                    > --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Jon & Wanda(Tink) <windyjon@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > From: Jon & Wanda(Tink) <windyjon@...>
                                    > Subject: [bolger] Re: PT decking?
                                    > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Received: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 12:33 AM
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