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Re: [bolger] seizing rope onto double paddle for Payson Pirogue

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  • Christopher Wetherill
    Found a link for french hitching: http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/clovehitch.html
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 5, 2008
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      Found a link for french hitching:
      http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/clovehitch.html

      Michael Galvin wrote:
      > I just finished building a Payson Pirogue, a double-paddle canoe (deckless
      > kayak), described in "Boats with an Open Mind." I built a pair of double
      > paddles according to Bolger's plan. He calls for wrapping rope on the ends
      > of the handle, near the paddles. He describes this as "drip seizing" rope
      > onto the handle. He sketches a nice, neat wrap.
      >
      > Can anyone suggest how this is done? What sort of knot is used to make it
      > look neat? It reminds of building structures in Boy Scout "pioneering" in
      > which we "wrapped and frapped" cordage around logs to join them together. I
      > think we started the wrap with a clove hitch, and ended it with a clove
      > hitch.
      >
      > Anyone got a better idea? Can you point me to a diagram of how this is
      > done?
      >
      >
      >
      > Michael Galvin
      >
      > mgalvin.com/boatbuilding
      >
      > Muskegon, MI
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Bolger rules!!!
      > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
      > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
      > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
      > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
      > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
      > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Michael Galvin
      Jon Thanks for your ideas. The paddle I constructed does not come apart, so rings aren t an option. Mike Galvin From: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 5, 2008
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        Jon

        Thanks for your ideas. The paddle I constructed does not come apart, so
        rings aren't an option.

        Mike Galvin



        From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        adventures_in_astrophotography
        Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:59 AM
        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [bolger] Re: seizing rope onto double paddle for Payson Pirogue



        Hi Michael,

        > I just finished building a Payson Pirogue, a double-paddle canoe
        (deckless
        > kayak), described in "Boats with an Open Mind." I built a pair of
        double
        > paddles according to Bolger's plan. He calls for wrapping rope on
        the ends
        > of the handle, near the paddles. He describes this as "drip
        seizing" rope
        > onto the handle. He sketches a nice, neat wrap.
        >
        > Can anyone suggest how this is done? What sort of knot is used to
        make it
        > look neat? It reminds of building structures in Boy
        Scout "pioneering" in
        > which we "wrapped and frapped" cordage around logs to join them
        together. I
        > think we started the wrap with a clove hitch, and ended it with a
        clove
        > hitch.
        >
        > Anyone got a better idea? Can you point me to a diagram of how
        this is
        > done?

        I used rope to make leathers and buttons on set of oars a while back,
        all without knots. I glued the starting ends of the leathers to the
        oar, wrapped away, then glued the other end. For the buttons, which
        are probably closer to the drip rings on a double paddle, I used a
        hot knife to cut both ends of a piece of rope and quickly stuck the
        two ends together while they were still hot. Then I slipped the ring
        down the oar handle and epoxied it in place. I then brushed all the
        rope with epoxy, down in the "valleys" between the wrappings and
        such. This process is described in Payson's book "Build the New
        Instant Boats" in the chapter on Gypsy.

        The oars are backup for a motorboat, and I've only used them once to
        sneek up to a fishing spot, so I can't comment on longevity. Rubber
        drip rings for double paddles are available online, assuming your
        paddle comes apart to get them on the shaft.

        Jon Kolb
        www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Galvin
        Chris That Turk s Head looks cool, and do-able by an old scout who never advanced beyond Life. I didn t understand the French hitch suggestion. I see how I
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 5, 2008
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          Chris

          That Turk's Head looks cool, and do-able by an old scout who never advanced
          beyond Life. I didn't understand the French hitch suggestion. I see how I
          could place a Turk's head at the ends of the pole, inboard of the paddle,
          but where would the French hitch go.

          Mike Galvin



          From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Christopher Wetherill
          Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:57 AM
          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [bolger] seizing rope onto double paddle for Payson Pirogue



          Michael,

          I would use a turks head on each end and a french hitch in between.
          Turks head is here:
          http://www.troop54.com/knots/TurksHeadKnot/TurksHeadKnot.htm French
          hitching is simply consecutive half hitches. You might also look for a
          copy of a book by Harvey Garrett Smith titled Marlinspike Seamanship.
          It was also published under the title The Arts of the Sailor.

          V/R
          Chris

          Michael Galvin wrote:
          > I just finished building a Payson Pirogue, a double-paddle canoe (deckless
          > kayak), described in "Boats with an Open Mind." I built a pair of double
          > paddles according to Bolger's plan. He calls for wrapping rope on the ends
          > of the handle, near the paddles. He describes this as "drip seizing" rope
          > onto the handle. He sketches a nice, neat wrap.
          >
          > Can anyone suggest how this is done? What sort of knot is used to make it
          > look neat? It reminds of building structures in Boy Scout "pioneering" in
          > which we "wrapped and frapped" cordage around logs to join them together.
          I
          > think we started the wrap with a clove hitch, and ended it with a clove
          > hitch.
          >
          > Anyone got a better idea? Can you point me to a diagram of how this is
          > done?
          >
          >
          >
          > Michael Galvin
          >
          > mgalvin.com/boatbuilding
          >
          > Muskegon, MI
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Bolger rules!!!
          > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
          > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
          horses
          > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
          > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
          > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
          (978) 282-1349
          > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          <mailto:bolger-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
          > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          <mailto:bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com> Yahoo! Groups
          Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • nordski62
          Michael, I just posted a couple of photos to an album titled Bolger Canoe . I m headed out boating this morning and will take a few pictures of the spray
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 6, 2008
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            Michael,

            I just posted a couple of photos to an album titled "Bolger Canoe". I'm headed out boating
            this morning and will take a few pictures of the spray skirt. The skirt was easy to make and
            really works well. Happy launching on Sunday! Do you have your boat set up with a kayak type
            seat? Aaron

            >
            > I would love to see a picture of your Pirogue and skirt. I've taken lots of
            > photos of the construction of my Pirogue and will organize them into a page
            > on my website, soon. The paint is curing on my boat as I type. I expect to
            > launch her Sunday.
            >
            > Michael Galvin
          • Christopher Wetherill
            Michael, I sent a subsequent post with a view of the french hitching, but it didn t get on for some reason. Here it is again:
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 6, 2008
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              Michael,

              I sent a subsequent post with a view of the french hitching, but it
              didn't get on for some reason. Here it is again:
              http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/clovehitch.html It is basically a
              multi-[ass clove hitch. The idea is that you would make the whole thing
              out of one piece of string..

              V/R
              Chris


              Michael Galvin wrote:
              > Chris
              >
              > That Turk's Head looks cool, and do-able by an old scout who never advanced
              > beyond Life. I didn't understand the French hitch suggestion. I see how I
              > could place a Turk's head at the ends of the pole, inboard of the paddle,
              > but where would the French hitch go.
              >
              > Mike Galvin
              >
              >
              >
              > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              > Christopher Wetherill
              > Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 8:57 AM
              > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [bolger] seizing rope onto double paddle for Payson Pirogue
              >
              >
              >
              > Michael,
              >
              > I would use a turks head on each end and a french hitch in between.
              > Turks head is here:
              > http://www.troop54.com/knots/TurksHeadKnot/TurksHeadKnot.htm French
              > hitching is simply consecutive half hitches. You might also look for a
              > copy of a book by Harvey Garrett Smith titled Marlinspike Seamanship.
              > It was also published under the title The Arts of the Sailor.
              >
              > V/R
              > Chris
              >
              >
            • Christopher Wetherill
              Thanks for the clarification. I had one or the other and had read the one I didn t have and had reached the idea that they were the same. Unfortunately, my
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 6, 2008
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                Thanks for the clarification. I had one or the other and had read the
                one I didn't have and had reached the idea that they were the same.
                Unfortunately, my parents sold the house and moved onto their boat while
                I was at sea and it got lost in the shuffle.

                V/R
                Chris

                Bob Johnson wrote:
                > On Friday, September 5, 2008, at 02:03 PM, Chris wrote:
                >
                >
                >> You might also look for a
                >> copy of a book by Harvey Garrett Smith titled Marlinspike Seamanship.
                >> It was also published under the title The Arts of the Sailor.
                >>
                >
                > Just to clarify, but those are not the same book. There is a good deal
                > of overlap in the material presented, but _The Marlinspike Sailor_ came
                > first, published by the Rudder in 1949. _The Arts of the Sailor_ came
                > next, published by Van Nostrand in 1953.
                >
                > TMS is larger format and very skill and/or project oriented. TAotS is
                > more narrative, sort of a text book of traditional ways. Both are
                > worth having and are available in reprint editions.
                >
                > Bob
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Bolger rules!!!
                > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Christopher Wetherill
                Michael, Third try to post this link. I sent a subsequent post with a view of the french hitching, but it didn t get on for some reason. Here it is again:
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 6, 2008
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                  Michael,

                  Third try to post this link.

                  I sent a subsequent post with a view of the french hitching, but it
                  didn't get on for some reason. Here it is again:
                  http://www.geocities.com/roo_two/clovehitch.html It is basically a
                  multi-pass clove hitch. The idea is that you would make the whole
                  thing out of one piece of string. Turks head on either end with french
                  hitching in the middle. Not as simple as whipping, but I think it is
                  more secure.

                  V/R
                  Chris

                  V/R
                  Chris --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Galvin"
                  <michaelgalvin@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Chris
                  >
                  > That Turk's Head looks cool, and do-able by an old scout who never
                  advanced
                  > beyond Life. I didn't understand the French hitch suggestion. I
                  see how I
                  > could place a Turk's head at the ends of the pole, inboard of the
                  paddle,
                  > but where would the French hitch go.
                  >
                  > Mike Galvin
                  >
                • Michael Galvin
                  Thanks for uploading the photos of your Bolger Canoe. I love the colors you chose. I chose almost the same color inside the boat as you. I see you beefed
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 6, 2008
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                    Thanks for uploading the photos of your "Bolger Canoe." I love the colors
                    you chose. I chose almost the same color inside the boat as you. I see you
                    beefed up the gunwhales and extended them from stem to stern, and added what
                    I think are footrests, or maybe blocks into which the seat is screwed.

                    I did not build a kayak seat into my boat. A local kayak salesman said he
                    thought it was nuts to paddle a kayak without a backrest and footrests.
                    Somewhere, Bolger has written he thinks kayakers should not rest their backs
                    on anything, instead, keeping their upper body loose, letting the boat rock
                    from side to side underneath them. I can't remember his entire line of
                    thinking. I respect his opinion so much, I'll try my boat first his way,
                    without a seat, and maybe latter add a seat.

                    When I launch tomorrow, I'll try to take some video so everyone can see how
                    the boat paddles with an overweight amateur.

                    By the way, I intend to take my Payson Pirogue, and my old Junebug, to the
                    Lake Monroe Messabout near Bloomington, IN on Sept. 19-21. Hope to see some
                    other Midwesterners there.



                    Michael Galvin

                    Muskegon, MI



                    From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    nordski62
                    Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 8:46 AM
                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [bolger] Re: seizing rope onto double paddle for Payson Pirogue



                    Michael,

                    I just posted a couple of photos to an album titled "Bolger Canoe". I'm
                    headed out boating
                    this morning and will take a few pictures of the spray skirt. The skirt was
                    easy to make and
                    really works well. Happy launching on Sunday! Do you have your boat set up
                    with a kayak type
                    seat? Aaron

                    >
                    > I would love to see a picture of your Pirogue and skirt. I've taken lots
                    of
                    > photos of the construction of my Pirogue and will organize them into a
                    page
                    > on my website, soon. The paint is curing on my boat as I type. I expect to
                    > launch her Sunday.
                    >
                    > Michael Galvin





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ford Walton
                    Michael, The rings provide an edge for water to drip off, instead of running down the paddle shaft to your hands, so they don t need to be wide, but should be
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 6, 2008
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                      Michael,

                      The rings provide an edge for water to drip off, instead of running down the paddle shaft to your hands, so they don't need to be wide, but should be relatively high. I have used turkshead knots made of 1/8 or 3/16" nylon braid for drip rings, but a single strand of 1/4 " rope with the ends melted together would work as well. Turksheads used as bracelets are usually doubled or tripled; the line passed along the original knot two or thee times. This is not needed for drip rings. Google "how to tie turkshead" for better directions than I can give here for the knot, or look in almost any knot book.

                      Good luck,
                      Ford Walton


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Michael Galvin <michaelgalvin@...>
                      To: Bolger Yahoo Group <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 08:07:14 -0400 (EDT)
                      Subject: [bolger] seizing rope onto double paddle for Payson Pirogue

                      I just finished building a Payson Pirogue, a double-paddle canoe (deckless
                      kayak), described in "Boats with an Open Mind." I built a pair of double
                      paddles according to Bolger's plan. He calls for wrapping rope on the ends
                      of the handle, near the paddles. He describes this as "drip seizing" rope
                      onto the handle. He sketches a nice, neat wrap.

                      Can anyone suggest how this is done? What sort of knot is used to make it
                      look neat? It reminds of building structures in Boy Scout "pioneering" in
                      which we "wrapped and frapped" cordage around logs to join them together. I
                      think we started the wrap with a clove hitch, and ended it with a clove
                      hitch.

                      Anyone got a better idea? Can you point me to a diagram of how this is
                      done?



                      Michael Galvin

                      mgalvin.com/boatbuilding

                      Muskegon, MI





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Harry James
                      I have no opinion on the back rest except as an old guy I need one after a while. You do have to tie your bottom to the boat firmly however. On my kayaks the
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 6, 2008
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                        I have no opinion on the back rest except as an old guy I need one after
                        a while. You do have to tie your bottom to the boat firmly however. On
                        my kayaks the seat and seat sides are a tight fit on my hips and make
                        the boat part of my lower body. You start slipping around in waves and
                        you will get in trouble quick. If you move around and can't brace your
                        feet you can't put force on the paddle either. That all being said, I
                        still think rowing is a better way to go, though that is a digression.

                        HJ

                        Michael Galvin wrote:
                        > --snip--
                        >
                        > I did not build a kayak seat into my boat. A local kayak salesman said he
                        > thought it was nuts to paddle a kayak without a backrest and footrests.
                        > Somewhere, Bolger has written he thinks kayakers should not rest their backs
                        > on anything, instead, keeping their upper body loose, letting the boat rock
                        > from side to side underneath them. I can't remember his entire line of
                        > thinking. I respect his opinion so much, I'll try my boat first his way,
                        > without a seat, and maybe latter add a seat.
                        >
                        > When I launch tomorrow, I'll try to take some video so everyone can see how
                        > the boat paddles with an overweight amateur.
                        >
                        > By the way, I intend to take my Payson Pirogue, and my old Junebug, to the
                        > Lake Monroe Messabout near Bloomington, IN on Sept. 19-21. Hope to see some
                        > other Midwesterners there.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Michael Galvin
                        >
                        > Muskegon, MI
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        > nordski62
                        > Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 8:46 AM
                        > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [bolger] Re: seizing rope onto double paddle for Payson Pirogue
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Michael,
                        >
                        > I just posted a couple of photos to an album titled "Bolger Canoe". I'm
                        > headed out boating
                        > this morning and will take a few pictures of the spray skirt. The skirt was
                        > easy to make and
                        > really works well. Happy launching on Sunday! Do you have your boat set up
                        > with a kayak type
                        > seat? Aaron
                        >
                        >
                        >> I would love to see a picture of your Pirogue and skirt. I've taken lots
                        >>
                        > of
                        >
                        >> photos of the construction of my Pirogue and will organize them into a
                        >>
                        > page
                        >
                        >> on my website, soon. The paint is curing on my boat as I type. I expect to
                        >> launch her Sunday.
                        >>
                        >> Michael Galvin
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Bolger rules!!!
                        > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                        > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                        > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                        > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                        > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • a&a julian
                        Michael, your boat is a little beauty! For a cheap seat which is very comfortable see http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showpost.php?p=798859&postcount=4
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 7, 2008
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                          Michael, your boat is a little beauty!
                          For a cheap seat which is very comfortable see
                          http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showpost.php?p=798859&postcount=4
                          'Rings' cut from a foam camping mat, glued with a cheap contact cement.
                          Sit on the flat side, not the 'ringed' side.
                          Can't remember whose kayak website I pinched the idea from.
                          cheers
                          Alan J
                          South Australia


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Michael Galvin" <michaelgalvin@...>
                          >
                          > I did not build a kayak seat into my boat. A local kayak salesman said he
                          > thought it was nuts to paddle a kayak without a backrest and footrests.
                          > Somewhere, Bolger has written he thinks kayakers should not rest their
                          > backs
                          > on anything, instead, keeping their upper body loose, letting the boat
                          > rock
                          > from side to side underneath them. I can't remember his entire line of
                          > thinking. I respect his opinion so much, I'll try my boat first his way,
                          > without a seat, and maybe latter add a seat.
                          >
                          > Michael Galvin
                          >
                        • nordski62
                          Michael, I ve been out of town and just now getting back and uploading a picture of the spray skirt and seat. I d like to see your Canoe but can t seem to find
                          Message 12 of 21 , Sep 10, 2008
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                            Michael,

                            I've been out of town and just now getting back and uploading a picture of the spray skirt
                            and seat. I'd like to see your Canoe but can't seem to find your web site. Aaron

                            > I would love to see a picture of your Pirogue and skirt. I've taken lots of
                            > photos of the construction of my Pirogue and will organize them into a page
                            > on my website, soon. The paint is curing on my boat as I type. I expect to
                            > launch her Sunday.
                            >
                            > Michael Galvin
                          • Michael Galvin
                            Aaron I did launch my Payson Pirogue last weekend, and I was very happy with her. I ve taken lots of pictures of her construction and launch, and even took a
                            Message 13 of 21 , Sep 10, 2008
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                              Aaron

                              I did launch my Payson Pirogue last weekend, and I was very happy with her.
                              I've taken lots of pictures of her construction and launch, and even took a
                              short video of me paddling her for the first time. I haven't had time yet
                              to assemble things into nice web page, but hope to within the next week. My
                              web site is "mgalvin.com/boatbuilding." I've posted stuff there about
                              building a Nymph and a Junebug, some pictures of Phil Bolger's old
                              Resolution, a visit to Dynamite Payson's shop, and building oars for my
                              Junebug. Nothing there about my Payson Pirogue, yet.

                              I ended up using Turk's head knots on the paddles as drip rings. The Turk's
                              heads were not hard to tie, do seem to work well, and look salty, to boot.

                              After using the Pirogue, as Bolger suggested, without a seat and footrests,
                              I'd like to try a seat to see if it adds comfort and efficiency. I wanted
                              to try building a wooden seat according to plans in Mark Pettingill's book
                              on building "Sweat Dream", a canoe he designed much like the Pirogue. I am
                              running out of good weather here in Michigan, so I instead decided to order
                              a commercially made seat from a company called "Surf to Summit," what they
                              call a "Tech Molded Kayak Seat with Pack," for $88.

                              Mike Galvin

                              Muskegon, MI

                              mgalvin.com/boatbuilding



                              From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              nordski62
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 8:42 PM
                              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [bolger] Re: seizing rope onto double paddle for Payson Pirogue



                              Michael,

                              I've been out of town and just now getting back and uploading a picture of
                              the spray skirt
                              and seat. I'd like to see your Canoe but can't seem to find your web site.
                              Aaron

                              > I would love to see a picture of your Pirogue and skirt. I've taken lots
                              of
                              > photos of the construction of my Pirogue and will organize them into a
                              page
                              > on my website, soon. The paint is curing on my boat as I type. I expect to
                              > launch her Sunday.
                              >
                              > Michael Galvin





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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