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Re: [bolger] Polyester fabric and checking

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  • Peter McCorison
    I ve been using Nexus Cloth (a light non-woven polyester cloth) set in epoxy to protect PW from checking. It has always worked for me. This isn t a process for
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 2, 2008
      I've been using Nexus Cloth (a light non-woven polyester cloth) set in
      epoxy to protect PW from checking. It has always worked for me. This
      isn't a process for adding strength to the structure, but only to
      protect the surface. The nice thing about Nexus Cloth is that it doesn't
      add much weight to the layup. Also it doesn't fuzz up when sanding like
      Dynel does.

      Of course, YMMV.

      - Peter McCorison

      Mungo Jerry wrote:
      > I was contemplating epoxying/gluing/sticking with chewing gum a layer of polyester fabric
      > over the hull bottom of my Vesper (imagine if Jessie Cooper had a drunken tumble with
      > Superbrick and you'll get the design concept). the idea would be to decrease checking and
      > increase the integrity of seams. Would love to hear if any of you have any experiences, good
      > or ill, with doing this and if you've ever used anything but two part epoxy for the process.
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Bolger rules!!!
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      > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
      > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
      > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
      > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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    • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
      Nothing sticks better prevents checking better and lasts as well as EPOXY and glass period Jon
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 2, 2008
        Nothing sticks better prevents checking better and lasts as well as
        EPOXY and glass period

        Jon
      • Kenneth Grome
        I had never heard of Nexus Cloth before but here s something I found online: Nexus is polyester cloth used as the outside covering material in fiberglass
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 2, 2008
          I had never heard of 'Nexus Cloth' before but here's
          something I found online:

          "Nexus is polyester cloth used as the outside covering
          material in fiberglass pultrusions to give a smooth surface
          to the part."

          Xynole is polyester too, and lots of builders use xynole in
          epoxy as a sheathing coat for abrasion resistance. My
          guess is that if the polyester you intend to use is a
          relatively open weave material, it will work fine.

          It seems this fabric is also used in a variety of other
          composite applications. Based on what I have read, I might
          use it for surface integrity but I would not expect it to
          impart enough additional strength to the joints to use it
          for this purpose.

          Sincerely,
          Ken Grome
          Bagacay Boatworks
          www.bagacayboatworks.com






          > I was contemplating epoxying/gluing/sticking with chewing
          > gum a layer of polyester fabric over the hull bottom of
          > my Vesper (imagine if Jessie Cooper had a drunken tumble
          > with Superbrick and you'll get the design concept). the
          > idea would be to decrease checking and increase the
          > integrity of seams. Would love to hear if any of you
          > have any experiences, good or ill, with doing this and if
          > you've ever used anything but two part epoxy for the
          > process.
        • Kristine Bennett
          Jerry I think you need to know they use polyester fabric as peel ply with epoxy. You would be better off to just use fiberglass. And the cost is not going to
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 2, 2008
            Jerry I think you need to know they use polyester fabric as peel ply with epoxy. You would be better off to just use fiberglass. And the cost is not going to be much more to do it right the first time around

             I have used a glass fabric called 7781 it's a 8.7 oz cloth that has a satin finsh and has a very tight weave. The last I looked FIberglass Supply has it cheaper then 6 oz boat cloth. It come in 38,50 and 60 inches wide. The only draw back I've seen is it does not like taking a real tight bend.

            They also carry the lighter industral cloths as well. The industral cloths are a finer and tighter weave so you will also have less time trying to fill the weave! The little extra you may pay for the industral cloth over the boat cloth will save you HOURS of sanding and filling!

            Fiberglass Supply's web site is www.fiberglasssupply.com they do ship as well.

            I have found their prices to be rather good on most of their stuff. I find their price on their epoxys not bad.

            Krissie












            I was contemplating epoxying/gluing/ sticking with chewing gum a layer of polyester fabric

            over the hull bottom of my Vesper (imagine if Jessie Cooper had a drunken tumble with

            Superbrick and you'll get the design concept). the idea would be to decrease checking and

            increase the integrity of seams. Would love to hear if any of you have any experiences, good

            or ill, with doing this and if you've ever used anything but two part epoxy for the process.





























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Kristine Bennett
            I have used Nexus Cloth and epoxy and they work will together, All Nexus cloth does is give you an even coat of epoxy that doesn t run off the part. :) Also
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 2, 2008
              I have used Nexus Cloth and epoxy and they work will together, All Nexus cloth does is give you an even coat of epoxy that doesn't run off the part. :) Also works nice over cloth to give you something to sand other then the cloth.

              I did a deck and we used fiberglass cloth with Nexus cloth over the top. After the epoxy had set we took a scraper to knock off the spikes from the Nexus cloth and painted it. It had just the right amount of tooth for non skid.

              Krissie

              --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Peter McCorison <k2spr@...> wrote:
              From: Peter McCorison <k2spr@...>
              Subject: Re: [bolger] Polyester fabric and checking
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 12:20 PM











              I've been using Nexus Cloth (a light non-woven polyester cloth) set in

              epoxy to protect PW from checking. It has always worked for me. This

              isn't a process for adding strength to the structure, but only to

              protect the surface. The nice thing about Nexus Cloth is that it doesn't

              add much weight to the layup. Also it doesn't fuzz up when sanding like

              Dynel does.



              Of course, YMMV.



              - Peter McCorison



              Mungo Jerry wrote:

              > I was contemplating epoxying/gluing/ sticking with chewing gum a layer of polyester fabric

              > over the hull bottom of my Vesper (imagine if Jessie Cooper had a drunken tumble with

              > Superbrick and you'll get the design concept). the idea would be to decrease checking and

              > increase the integrity of seams. Would love to hear if any of you have any experiences, good

              > or ill, with doing this and if you've ever used anything but two part epoxy for the process.

              >

              >

              > ------------ --------- --------- ------

              >

              > Bolger rules!!!

              > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!

              > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses

              > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts

              > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away

              > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349

              > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com

              > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_ lounge-subscribe @yahoogroups. com Yahoo! Groups Links

              >

              >

              >

              >



























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • daschultz2000
              It seems to me that the polyester cloth won t add significant strength like glass fiber would, not would it be expected to take abrasion like glass, but it
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
                It seems to me that the polyester cloth won't add significant strength
                like glass fiber would, not would it be expected to take abrasion like
                glass, but it will let you get the epoxy on really thick just by
                supporting the wet paint as Krissie says above.

                Will thicker paint prevent checking? Dunno.

                Don
              • Kenneth Grome
                Xynole is polyester and it has been reported to be 4 times better than fiberglass in terms of abrasion resistance. Sincerely, Ken Grome Bagacay Boatworks
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
                  Xynole is polyester and it has been reported to be 4 times
                  better than fiberglass in terms of abrasion resistance.

                  Sincerely,
                  Ken Grome
                  Bagacay Boatworks
                  www.bagacayboatworks.com






                  > It seems to me that the polyester cloth won't add
                  > significant strength like glass fiber would, not would it
                  > be expected to take abrasion like glass ...
                • Ben
                  When you sand thru the epoxy and hit the Xynole,it turns fuzzy like a lint ball.It s a pain to repair it too.
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
                    When you sand thru the epoxy and hit the Xynole,it turns fuzzy like a
                    lint ball.It's a pain to repair it too.

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Xynole is polyester and it has been reported to be 4 times
                    > better than fiberglass in terms of abrasion resistance.
                    >
                    > Sincerely,
                    > Ken Grome
                    > Bagacay Boatworks
                    > www.bagacayboatworks.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > > It seems to me that the polyester cloth won't add
                    > > significant strength like glass fiber would, not would it
                    > > be expected to take abrasion like glass ...
                    >
                  • Harry James
                    I don t know about repairing but I live in an area of no beaches as they are understood elsewhere. Rocks with barnacles and occasionally pebble beaches all
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
                      I don't know about repairing but I live in an area of no beaches as they
                      are understood elsewhere. Rocks with barnacles and occasionally pebble
                      beaches all with barnacles attached. Any boat that I plan on keeping I
                      have used Xynole on. Takes a lot of epoxy but it also takes a beating. I
                      have gone through 6 ox glass many times but never through the Xynole.

                      HJ Juneau.

                      Ben wrote:
                      > When you sand thru the epoxy and hit the Xynole,it turns fuzzy like a
                      > lint ball.It's a pain to repair it too.
                      >
                      > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >> Xynole is polyester and it has been reported to be 4 times
                      >> better than fiberglass in terms of abrasion resistance.
                      >>
                      >> Sincerely,
                      >> Ken Grome
                      >> Bagacay Boatworks
                      >> www.bagacayboatworks.com
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>> It seems to me that the polyester cloth won't add
                      >>> significant strength like glass fiber would, not would it
                      >>> be expected to take abrasion like glass ...
                      >>>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Bolger rules!!!
                      > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                      > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                      > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                      > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                      > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                      > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                      I think like Dynel it is the high amount of epoxy needed to use it that gives it the abrasion resistance not the fact it is polyester cloth. Jon ... they ...
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
                        I think like Dynel it is the high amount of epoxy needed to use it that
                        gives it the abrasion resistance not the fact it is polyester cloth.

                        Jon

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I don't know about repairing but I live in an area of no beaches as
                        they
                        > are understood elsewhere. Rocks with barnacles and occasionally
                        pebble
                        > beaches all with barnacles attached. Any boat that I plan on keeping
                        I
                        > have used Xynole on. Takes a lot of epoxy but it also takes a
                        beating. I
                        > have gone through 6 ox glass many times but never through the Xynole.
                        >
                        > HJ Juneau.
                      • Harry James
                        Don t think so, the informal test in Boatbuilding magazine that most of us use as a reference on this had epoxy without cloth as a control and it had
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
                          Don't think so, the informal test in Boatbuilding magazine that most of
                          us use as a reference on this had epoxy without cloth as a control and
                          it had negligible resistance compared to the various cloths. Think about
                          it, how long does it take you to sand through three coats of epoxy as
                          opposed to 6 oz cloth and epoxy.

                          HJ


                          Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote:
                          > I think like Dynel it is the high amount of epoxy needed to use it that
                          > gives it the abrasion resistance not the fact it is polyester cloth.
                          >
                          > Jon
                          >
                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >> I don't know about repairing but I live in an area of no beaches as
                          >>
                          > they
                          >
                          >> are understood elsewhere. Rocks with barnacles and occasionally
                          >>
                          > pebble
                          >
                          >> beaches all with barnacles attached. Any boat that I plan on keeping
                          >>
                          > I
                          >
                          >> have used Xynole on. Takes a lot of epoxy but it also takes a
                          >>
                          > beating. I
                          >
                          >> have gone through 6 ox glass many times but never through the Xynole.
                          >>
                          >> HJ Juneau.
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Kenneth Grome
                          ... In this case several layers of glass would be better than one layer of Xynole, but I don t think this is the case. I think the polyester lets the boat slip
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
                            > I think like Dynel it is the high amount of epoxy needed
                            > to use it that gives it the abrasion resistance not the
                            > fact it is polyester cloth.

                            In this case several layers of glass would be better than
                            one layer of Xynole, but I don't think this is the case.

                            I think the polyester lets the boat slip off obstructions
                            better than glass. Graphite in epoxy is good for abrasion
                            resistance too -- because it lets the hull slip off of
                            things that would otherwise dig into it. I think polyester
                            works the same way.

                            I also think since it is a plastic fiber rather than glass,
                            polyester fibers are not broken as easily as glass.
                            Instead of breaking they bend and stretch which appears to
                            resist abrasion better than glass fibers.

                            Sincerely,
                            Ken Grome
                            Bagacay Boatworks
                            www.bagacayboatworks.com







                            >
                            > Jon
                            >
                            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...>
                            wrote:
                            > > I don't know about repairing but I live in an area of
                            > > no beaches as
                            >
                            > they
                            >
                            > > are understood elsewhere. Rocks with barnacles and
                            > > occasionally
                            >
                            > pebble
                            >
                            > > beaches all with barnacles attached. Any boat that I
                            > > plan on keeping
                            >
                            > I
                            >
                            > > have used Xynole on. Takes a lot of epoxy but it also
                            > > takes a
                            >
                            > beating. I
                            >
                            > > have gone through 6 ox glass many times but never
                            > > through the Xynole.
                            > >
                            > > HJ Juneau.
                          • Harry James
                            In the Boatbuilding test and I think you have quoted it Ken one layer of Xynole was four times as abrasion resistant as one layer of 6 oz glass. When the test
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
                              In the Boatbuilding test and I think you have quoted it Ken one layer of
                              Xynole was four times as abrasion resistant as one layer of 6 oz glass.
                              When the test was adjusted for thickness of coating the Xynole was 2
                              times as abrasion resistant. As a practical matter, Xnole or Dynel is
                              much easier to work around corners of chines and such. If I bother with
                              glass at all I will always put Xynole or Dynel on the bottom. Glass on
                              the sides is just to stabilize the wood surface, glass on the bottom is
                              for abrasion resistance, why not do 4x effectiveness?

                              There is a web site out there that shows using 20 mil plastic and
                              rolling it out over glass/epoxy and leaving a mirror smooth finish. I
                              have often wondered how that technique would work over Xynole maybe
                              make filling the weave quicker. If anybody has that website link I
                              could use it, disappeared out of my files.

                              HJ

                              Kenneth Grome wrote:
                              >> I think like Dynel it is the high amount of epoxy needed
                              >> to use it that gives it the abrasion resistance not the
                              >> fact it is polyester cloth.
                              >>
                              >
                              > In this case several layers of glass would be better than
                              > one layer of Xynole, but I don't think this is the case.
                              >
                              > I think the polyester lets the boat slip off obstructions
                              > better than glass. Graphite in epoxy is good for abrasion
                              > resistance too -- because it lets the hull slip off of
                              > things that would otherwise dig into it. I think polyester
                              > works the same way.
                              >
                              > I also think since it is a plastic fiber rather than glass,
                              > polyester fibers are not broken as easily as glass.
                              > Instead of breaking they bend and stretch which appears to
                              > resist abrasion better than glass fibers.
                              >
                              > Sincerely,
                              > Ken Grome
                              > Bagacay Boatworks
                              > www.bagacayboatworks.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >> Jon
                              >>
                              >> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...>
                              >>
                              > wrote:
                              >
                              >>> I don't know about repairing but I live in an area of
                              >>> no beaches as
                              >>>
                              >> they
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>> are understood elsewhere. Rocks with barnacles and
                              >>> occasionally
                              >>>
                              >> pebble
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>> beaches all with barnacles attached. Any boat that I
                              >>> plan on keeping
                              >>>
                              >> I
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>> have used Xynole on. Takes a lot of epoxy but it also
                              >>> takes a
                              >>>
                              >> beating. I
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>> have gone through 6 ox glass many times but never
                              >>> through the Xynole.
                              >>>
                              >>> HJ Juneau.
                              >>>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > Bolger rules!!!
                              > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                              > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                              > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                              > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                              > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                              > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Ron Magen
                              Harry, et al . . . I have a South Haven Dory { clone of Gloucester Gull} that I am -that is will be , after Joanne s kitchen- refurbishing. The bottom is
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 7, 2008
                                Harry, et al . . .

                                I have a 'South Haven' Dory {'clone' of Gloucester Gull} that I am -that is
                                'will be', after Joanne's kitchen- refurbishing. The bottom is badly
                                'checked', along with a almost broken off transom top. It is completely
                                painted, so the first thing is to thoroughly sand to 'clean' wood.

                                I've worked with glass, and the one thing that is the most troublesome is
                                the 'itch' factor. I've heard a lot about the virtues of Dynel/Xynole - 'no
                                itch' and conforms to curves/edges nicely. What I intend to do -to offset
                                the epoxy 'suck-up' factor- is treat it like a fairing problem. . .
                                a} sand, brush, and vacuum clean
                                b} brush & roll a light coat of 'straight' THINNED epoxy
                                c} mix up a batch of 'Q-Cel' {or Phonolic, or other light
                                weight} filler, and apply a 'skim coat' with a NOTCHED
                                spreader.
                                d} lay in and 'rollout' the Dynel/Xynole cloth.
                                e} wait for 'Green Stage' or beyond
                                f} mix up & apply a SMOOTH skim 'top coat' of a harder
                                {fumed silica admixture} filler.
                                g} lightly sand & PAINT

                                The sides will have just a layer of about a 1 ounce fabric, set in epoxy,
                                'skimmed' & painted.

                                This shouldn't add much weight -any would add to the 'ballast', anyway. Will
                                most assuredly increase bottom abrasion resistance, and make outside storage
                                {covered, of course} much less worrisome.

                                Regards,
                                Ron Magen
                                Backyard Boatshop


                                > Posted by: "Harry James" welshman@... harryjak
                                > snip
                                . . . one layer of Xynole was four times as abrasion resistant as one layer
                                of 6 oz glass. When the test was adjusted for thickness of coating the
                                Xynole was 2 times as abrasion resistant. As a practical matter, Xnole or
                                Dynel is much easier to work around corners of chines and such. . . .
                                > . . .
                                > There is a web site out there that shows using 20 mil plastic and rolling
                                > it out over glass/epoxy and leaving a mirror smooth finish. I have often
                                > wondered how that technique would work over Xynole maybe make filling the
                                > weave quicker. . .
                              • Kenneth Grome
                                Ron, I think you should allow the fabric to suck up as much epoxy as it wants to suck up. When you apply a sheathing layer this layer is supposed to be filled
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 7, 2008
                                  Ron,

                                  I think you should allow the fabric to suck up as much epoxy
                                  as it wants to suck up. When you apply a sheathing layer
                                  this layer is supposed to be filled 100% with epoxy. It's
                                  not supposed to have air in it, but that's what your
                                  approach will do.

                                  The only reasonably effective way I can think of (at the
                                  moment) to use less epoxy with Xynole might be to vacuum
                                  bag it since this will put pressure on the cloth over its
                                  entire surface and *theoretically* flatten it uniformly --
                                  thereby reducing the volume of air spaces that would
                                  otherwise be filled with epoxy.

                                  By the way, you should never thin epoxy with any kind of
                                  solvents either. The only way you should thin epoxy is by
                                  heating it.

                                  Epoxy does not need to be thinned to work properly in the
                                  first place. This is a false assumption that too many
                                  people fall into these days, probably because they assume
                                  epoxy works like paint -- which it most certainly does not.
                                  Paint usually sticks better when the first coat is thinned,
                                  but this is not true of epoxy.

                                  By thinning epoxy with solvents all you're doing is
                                  perforating it with millions of tiny hollow tubes created
                                  by the solvents as they flow from within the epoxy to the
                                  surface so they can evaporate. These hollow tubes provide
                                  ideal pathways for moisture to get into the wood later.

                                  Sincerely,
                                  Ken Grome
                                  Bagacay Boatworks
                                  www.bagacayboatworks.com




                                  > What I intend to do -to offset the epoxy 'suck-up' factor
                                  > is treat it like a fairing problem. . .
                                  > a} sand, brush, and vacuum clean
                                  > b} brush & roll a light coat of 'straight' THINNED epoxy
                                  > c} mix up a batch of 'Q-Cel' {or Phonolic, or other light
                                  > weight} filler, and apply a 'skim coat' with a NOTCHED
                                  > spreader.
                                  > d} lay in and 'rollout' the Dynel/Xynole cloth.
                                  > e} wait for 'Green Stage' or beyond
                                  > f} mix up & apply a SMOOTH skim 'top coat' of a harder
                                  {fumed silica admixture} filler.
                                  > g} lightly sand & PAINT
                                • Douglas Pollard
                                  You are absolutly right about the holes and varnish will do the same thing I watched guys varnishing boats in Florida and they added so much japan dries they
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Sep 7, 2008
                                    You are absolutly right about the holes and varnish will do the same
                                    thing I watched guys varnishing boats in Florida and they added so much
                                    japan dries they were able to get three coats in one day. That stuff
                                    had to be like a sieve. I guess the fact that the holes seldom line up
                                    saves them?
                                    Doug



                                    Kenneth Grome wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Ron,
                                    >
                                    > I think you should allow the fabric to suck up as much epoxy
                                    > as it wants to suck up. When you apply a sheathing layer
                                    > this layer is supposed to be filled 100% with epoxy. It's
                                    > not supposed to have air in it, but that's what your
                                    > approach will do.
                                    >
                                    > The only reasonably effective way I can think of (at the
                                    > moment) to use less epoxy with Xynole might be to vacuum
                                    > bag it since this will put pressure on the cloth over its
                                    > entire surface and *theoretically* flatten it uniformly --
                                    > thereby reducing the volume of air spaces that would
                                    > otherwise be filled with epoxy.
                                    >
                                    > By the way, you should never thin epoxy with any kind of
                                    > solvents either. The only way you should thin epoxy is by
                                    > heating it.
                                    >
                                    > Epoxy does not need to be thinned to work properly in the
                                    > first place. This is a false assumption that too many
                                    > people fall into these days, probably because they assume
                                    > epoxy works like paint -- which it most certainly does not.
                                    > Paint usually sticks better when the first coat is thinned,
                                    > but this is not true of epoxy.
                                    >
                                    > By thinning epoxy with solvents all you're doing is
                                    > perforating it with millions of tiny hollow tubes created
                                    > by the solvents as they flow from within the epoxy to the
                                    > surface so they can evaporate. These hollow tubes provide
                                    > ideal pathways for moisture to get into the wood later.
                                    >
                                    > Sincerely,
                                    > Ken Grome
                                    > Bagacay Boatworks
                                    > www.bagacayboatworks.com
                                    >
                                    > > What I intend to do -to offset the epoxy 'suck-up' factor
                                    > > is treat it like a fairing problem. . .
                                    > > a} sand, brush, and vacuum clean
                                    > > b} brush & roll a light coat of 'straight' THINNED epoxy
                                    > > c} mix up a batch of 'Q-Cel' {or Phonolic, or other light
                                    > > weight} filler, and apply a 'skim coat' with a NOTCHED
                                    > > spreader.
                                    > > d} lay in and 'rollout' the Dynel/Xynole cloth.
                                    > > e} wait for 'Green Stage' or beyond
                                    > > f} mix up & apply a SMOOTH skim 'top coat' of a harder
                                    > {fumed silica admixture} filler.
                                    > > g} lightly sand & PAINT
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                                    6 oz. Dynel can take upto 4-6 times the epoxy to wet out and then finnesh so it would be a apples to oranges compaired to 6 oz. glass. Dynel is no where as
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Sep 7, 2008
                                      6 oz. Dynel can take upto 4-6 times the epoxy to wet out and then
                                      finnesh so it would be a apples to oranges compaired to 6 oz. glass.
                                      Dynel is no where as strong as glass even with all the epoxy. My
                                      favorite way to add abrasion resistance is use cabosil in the fill
                                      and other coats after laying glass.

                                      Jon

                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Don't think so, the informal test in Boatbuilding magazine that
                                      most of
                                      > us use as a reference on this had epoxy without cloth as a control
                                      and
                                      > it had negligible resistance compared to the various cloths. Think
                                      about
                                      > it, how long does it take you to sand through three coats of epoxy
                                      as
                                      > opposed to 6 oz cloth and epoxy.
                                      >
                                      > HJ
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote:
                                      > > I think like Dynel it is the high amount of epoxy needed to use
                                      it that
                                      > > gives it the abrasion resistance not the fact it is polyester
                                      cloth.
                                      > >
                                      > > Jon
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >> I don't know about repairing but I live in an area of no beaches
                                      as
                                      > >>
                                      > > they
                                      > >
                                      > >> are understood elsewhere. Rocks with barnacles and occasionally
                                      > >>
                                      > > pebble
                                      > >
                                      > >> beaches all with barnacles attached. Any boat that I plan on
                                      keeping
                                      > >>
                                      > > I
                                      > >
                                      > >> have used Xynole on. Takes a lot of epoxy but it also takes a
                                      > >>
                                      > > beating. I
                                      > >
                                      > >> have gone through 6 ox glass many times but never through the
                                      Xynole.
                                      > >>
                                      > >> HJ Juneau.
                                      > >>
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Harry James
                                      Ron We built 3 Gull dories in my shop in 2003 before my last mobilization. I put Xynole on the bottom of all of them. The rest are all different as I am not
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Sep 7, 2008
                                        Ron

                                        We built 3 Gull dories in my shop in 2003 before my last mobilization. I
                                        put Xynole on the bottom of all of them. The rest are all different as I
                                        am not very good at doing the same thing twice running. The Xnole was
                                        all done the same and Ken pretty well has the right of it on what I
                                        think is the best technique. I put the cloth on dry and poured on the
                                        epoxy and used a plastic spreader to level it off and it soaked in a
                                        lot. I then spread on another coat the next day. I sanded that one down
                                        rolled on a finish coat. I would not try to use filler until after the
                                        cloth is filled with epoxy. My estimate is it took about 3 times the
                                        epoxy of 6 oz cloth and as I have said before I have never gone through
                                        it on our beaches. I have gone through 6 oz cloth rather easily. This is
                                        not about strength, fiberglass is stronger than Xynole in both tension
                                        and compression. It is about abrasion resistance. Jon thinks it is the
                                        extra epoxy and would rather use cabosil for extra abrasion resistance.
                                        I have a different opinion based on my experience which is just fine,
                                        you get to make your mind up and then have "your" opinion. If you want
                                        strength and abrasion resistance the Arimid Kevlar is very abrasion
                                        resistant and way stronger in tension then fiberglass. It doesn't do
                                        compression well but nobodies perfect. I can email you some pics of
                                        putting on the Xynole if you want them. Someday I have to put it
                                        together for a Duckworks article.

                                        Still looking for that plastic over epoxy site.

                                        HJ


                                        Ron Magen wrote:
                                        > Harry, et al . . .
                                        >
                                        > I have a 'South Haven' Dory {'clone' of Gloucester Gull} that I am -that is
                                        > 'will be', after Joanne's kitchen- refurbishing. The bottom is badly
                                        > 'checked', along with a almost broken off transom top. It is completely
                                        > painted, so the first thing is to thoroughly sand to 'clean' wood.
                                        >
                                        > I've worked with glass, and the one thing that is the most troublesome is
                                        > the 'itch' factor. I've heard a lot about the virtues of Dynel/Xynole - 'no
                                        > itch' and conforms to curves/edges nicely. What I intend to do -to offset
                                        > the epoxy 'suck-up' factor- is treat it like a fairing problem. . .
                                        > a} sand, brush, and vacuum clean
                                        > b} brush & roll a light coat of 'straight' THINNED epoxy
                                        > c} mix up a batch of 'Q-Cel' {or Phonolic, or other light
                                        > weight} filler, and apply a 'skim coat' with a NOTCHED
                                        > spreader.
                                        > d} lay in and 'rollout' the Dynel/Xynole cloth.
                                        > e} wait for 'Green Stage' or beyond
                                        > f} mix up & apply a SMOOTH skim 'top coat' of a harder
                                        > {fumed silica admixture} filler.
                                        > g} lightly sand & PAINT
                                        >
                                        > The sides will have just a layer of about a 1 ounce fabric, set in epoxy,
                                        > 'skimmed' & painted.
                                        >
                                        > This shouldn't add much weight -any would add to the 'ballast', anyway. Will
                                        > most assuredly increase bottom abrasion resistance, and make outside storage
                                        > {covered, of course} much less worrisome.
                                        >
                                        > Regards,
                                        > Ron Magen
                                        > Backyard Boatshop
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >> Posted by: "Harry James" welshman@... harryjak
                                        >> snip
                                        >>
                                        > . . . one layer of Xynole was four times as abrasion resistant as one layer
                                        > of 6 oz glass. When the test was adjusted for thickness of coating the
                                        > Xynole was 2 times as abrasion resistant. As a practical matter, Xnole or
                                        > Dynel is much easier to work around corners of chines and such. . . .
                                        >
                                        >> . . .
                                        >> There is a web site out there that shows using 20 mil plastic and rolling
                                        >> it out over glass/epoxy and leaving a mirror smooth finish. I have often
                                        >> wondered how that technique would work over Xynole maybe make filling the
                                        >> weave quicker. . .
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • c o'donnell
                                        I did an experiment a while back with light glass (2 oz?) and acrylic latex (or epoxy fortified) porch paint. The goal was to stop checking on a hatch cover.
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Sep 8, 2008
                                          I did an experiment a while back with light glass (2 oz?) and acrylic
                                          latex (or epoxy fortified) porch paint. The goal was to stop checking
                                          on a hatch cover.

                                          You paint the cloth down, basically, like people used to do with
                                          canvas. Fast undercoat, drop the cloth down, top coat. It works well.
                                          However, not recommended for any part that will be underwater
                                          constantly. If checking painting ply is the issue, porch or garage
                                          floor paint and glass works well without boosting the weight.

                                          On Sep 8, 2008, at 12:08 AM, Harry James wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > and compression. It is about abrasion resistance. Jon thinks it is the
                                          > extra epoxy and would rather use cabosil for extra abrasion
                                          > resistance.
                                          >
                                          >





                                          Another recommendation has been to use corborundum (powder) in epoxy.
                                          Carborundum will abrade the rocks. I think I read of this in an
                                          article on west coast drift boats ...



                                          === craig o'donnell
                                          dadadata@...
                                          Box 232 Betterton Md 21610





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