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Polyester fabric and checking

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  • Mungo Jerry
    I was contemplating epoxying/gluing/sticking with chewing gum a layer of polyester fabric over the hull bottom of my Vesper (imagine if Jessie Cooper had a
    Message 1 of 20 , Sep 2, 2008
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      I was contemplating epoxying/gluing/sticking with chewing gum a layer of polyester fabric
      over the hull bottom of my Vesper (imagine if Jessie Cooper had a drunken tumble with
      Superbrick and you'll get the design concept). the idea would be to decrease checking and
      increase the integrity of seams. Would love to hear if any of you have any experiences, good
      or ill, with doing this and if you've ever used anything but two part epoxy for the process.
    • Peter McCorison
      I ve been using Nexus Cloth (a light non-woven polyester cloth) set in epoxy to protect PW from checking. It has always worked for me. This isn t a process for
      Message 2 of 20 , Sep 2, 2008
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        I've been using Nexus Cloth (a light non-woven polyester cloth) set in
        epoxy to protect PW from checking. It has always worked for me. This
        isn't a process for adding strength to the structure, but only to
        protect the surface. The nice thing about Nexus Cloth is that it doesn't
        add much weight to the layup. Also it doesn't fuzz up when sanding like
        Dynel does.

        Of course, YMMV.

        - Peter McCorison

        Mungo Jerry wrote:
        > I was contemplating epoxying/gluing/sticking with chewing gum a layer of polyester fabric
        > over the hull bottom of my Vesper (imagine if Jessie Cooper had a drunken tumble with
        > Superbrick and you'll get the design concept). the idea would be to decrease checking and
        > increase the integrity of seams. Would love to hear if any of you have any experiences, good
        > or ill, with doing this and if you've ever used anything but two part epoxy for the process.
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Bolger rules!!!
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        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
        > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
        > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
        > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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      • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
        Nothing sticks better prevents checking better and lasts as well as EPOXY and glass period Jon
        Message 3 of 20 , Sep 2, 2008
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          Nothing sticks better prevents checking better and lasts as well as
          EPOXY and glass period

          Jon
        • Kenneth Grome
          I had never heard of Nexus Cloth before but here s something I found online: Nexus is polyester cloth used as the outside covering material in fiberglass
          Message 4 of 20 , Sep 2, 2008
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            I had never heard of 'Nexus Cloth' before but here's
            something I found online:

            "Nexus is polyester cloth used as the outside covering
            material in fiberglass pultrusions to give a smooth surface
            to the part."

            Xynole is polyester too, and lots of builders use xynole in
            epoxy as a sheathing coat for abrasion resistance. My
            guess is that if the polyester you intend to use is a
            relatively open weave material, it will work fine.

            It seems this fabric is also used in a variety of other
            composite applications. Based on what I have read, I might
            use it for surface integrity but I would not expect it to
            impart enough additional strength to the joints to use it
            for this purpose.

            Sincerely,
            Ken Grome
            Bagacay Boatworks
            www.bagacayboatworks.com






            > I was contemplating epoxying/gluing/sticking with chewing
            > gum a layer of polyester fabric over the hull bottom of
            > my Vesper (imagine if Jessie Cooper had a drunken tumble
            > with Superbrick and you'll get the design concept). the
            > idea would be to decrease checking and increase the
            > integrity of seams. Would love to hear if any of you
            > have any experiences, good or ill, with doing this and if
            > you've ever used anything but two part epoxy for the
            > process.
          • Kristine Bennett
            Jerry I think you need to know they use polyester fabric as peel ply with epoxy. You would be better off to just use fiberglass. And the cost is not going to
            Message 5 of 20 , Sep 2, 2008
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              Jerry I think you need to know they use polyester fabric as peel ply with epoxy. You would be better off to just use fiberglass. And the cost is not going to be much more to do it right the first time around

               I have used a glass fabric called 7781 it's a 8.7 oz cloth that has a satin finsh and has a very tight weave. The last I looked FIberglass Supply has it cheaper then 6 oz boat cloth. It come in 38,50 and 60 inches wide. The only draw back I've seen is it does not like taking a real tight bend.

              They also carry the lighter industral cloths as well. The industral cloths are a finer and tighter weave so you will also have less time trying to fill the weave! The little extra you may pay for the industral cloth over the boat cloth will save you HOURS of sanding and filling!

              Fiberglass Supply's web site is www.fiberglasssupply.com they do ship as well.

              I have found their prices to be rather good on most of their stuff. I find their price on their epoxys not bad.

              Krissie












              I was contemplating epoxying/gluing/ sticking with chewing gum a layer of polyester fabric

              over the hull bottom of my Vesper (imagine if Jessie Cooper had a drunken tumble with

              Superbrick and you'll get the design concept). the idea would be to decrease checking and

              increase the integrity of seams. Would love to hear if any of you have any experiences, good

              or ill, with doing this and if you've ever used anything but two part epoxy for the process.





























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Kristine Bennett
              I have used Nexus Cloth and epoxy and they work will together, All Nexus cloth does is give you an even coat of epoxy that doesn t run off the part. :) Also
              Message 6 of 20 , Sep 2, 2008
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                I have used Nexus Cloth and epoxy and they work will together, All Nexus cloth does is give you an even coat of epoxy that doesn't run off the part. :) Also works nice over cloth to give you something to sand other then the cloth.

                I did a deck and we used fiberglass cloth with Nexus cloth over the top. After the epoxy had set we took a scraper to knock off the spikes from the Nexus cloth and painted it. It had just the right amount of tooth for non skid.

                Krissie

                --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Peter McCorison <k2spr@...> wrote:
                From: Peter McCorison <k2spr@...>
                Subject: Re: [bolger] Polyester fabric and checking
                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, September 2, 2008, 12:20 PM











                I've been using Nexus Cloth (a light non-woven polyester cloth) set in

                epoxy to protect PW from checking. It has always worked for me. This

                isn't a process for adding strength to the structure, but only to

                protect the surface. The nice thing about Nexus Cloth is that it doesn't

                add much weight to the layup. Also it doesn't fuzz up when sanding like

                Dynel does.



                Of course, YMMV.



                - Peter McCorison



                Mungo Jerry wrote:

                > I was contemplating epoxying/gluing/ sticking with chewing gum a layer of polyester fabric

                > over the hull bottom of my Vesper (imagine if Jessie Cooper had a drunken tumble with

                > Superbrick and you'll get the design concept). the idea would be to decrease checking and

                > increase the integrity of seams. Would love to hear if any of you have any experiences, good

                > or ill, with doing this and if you've ever used anything but two part epoxy for the process.

                >

                >

                > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                >

                > Bolger rules!!!

                > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!

                > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses

                > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts

                > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away

                > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349

                > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com

                > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_ lounge-subscribe @yahoogroups. com Yahoo! Groups Links

                >

                >

                >

                >



























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • daschultz2000
                It seems to me that the polyester cloth won t add significant strength like glass fiber would, not would it be expected to take abrasion like glass, but it
                Message 7 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
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                  It seems to me that the polyester cloth won't add significant strength
                  like glass fiber would, not would it be expected to take abrasion like
                  glass, but it will let you get the epoxy on really thick just by
                  supporting the wet paint as Krissie says above.

                  Will thicker paint prevent checking? Dunno.

                  Don
                • Kenneth Grome
                  Xynole is polyester and it has been reported to be 4 times better than fiberglass in terms of abrasion resistance. Sincerely, Ken Grome Bagacay Boatworks
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
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                    Xynole is polyester and it has been reported to be 4 times
                    better than fiberglass in terms of abrasion resistance.

                    Sincerely,
                    Ken Grome
                    Bagacay Boatworks
                    www.bagacayboatworks.com






                    > It seems to me that the polyester cloth won't add
                    > significant strength like glass fiber would, not would it
                    > be expected to take abrasion like glass ...
                  • Ben
                    When you sand thru the epoxy and hit the Xynole,it turns fuzzy like a lint ball.It s a pain to repair it too.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 5, 2008
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                      When you sand thru the epoxy and hit the Xynole,it turns fuzzy like a
                      lint ball.It's a pain to repair it too.

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Xynole is polyester and it has been reported to be 4 times
                      > better than fiberglass in terms of abrasion resistance.
                      >
                      > Sincerely,
                      > Ken Grome
                      > Bagacay Boatworks
                      > www.bagacayboatworks.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > > It seems to me that the polyester cloth won't add
                      > > significant strength like glass fiber would, not would it
                      > > be expected to take abrasion like glass ...
                      >
                    • Harry James
                      I don t know about repairing but I live in an area of no beaches as they are understood elsewhere. Rocks with barnacles and occasionally pebble beaches all
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
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                        I don't know about repairing but I live in an area of no beaches as they
                        are understood elsewhere. Rocks with barnacles and occasionally pebble
                        beaches all with barnacles attached. Any boat that I plan on keeping I
                        have used Xynole on. Takes a lot of epoxy but it also takes a beating. I
                        have gone through 6 ox glass many times but never through the Xynole.

                        HJ Juneau.

                        Ben wrote:
                        > When you sand thru the epoxy and hit the Xynole,it turns fuzzy like a
                        > lint ball.It's a pain to repair it too.
                        >
                        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >> Xynole is polyester and it has been reported to be 4 times
                        >> better than fiberglass in terms of abrasion resistance.
                        >>
                        >> Sincerely,
                        >> Ken Grome
                        >> Bagacay Boatworks
                        >> www.bagacayboatworks.com
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>> It seems to me that the polyester cloth won't add
                        >>> significant strength like glass fiber would, not would it
                        >>> be expected to take abrasion like glass ...
                        >>>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Bolger rules!!!
                        > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                        > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                        > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                        > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                        > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
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                        >
                      • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                        I think like Dynel it is the high amount of epoxy needed to use it that gives it the abrasion resistance not the fact it is polyester cloth. Jon ... they ...
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
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                          I think like Dynel it is the high amount of epoxy needed to use it that
                          gives it the abrasion resistance not the fact it is polyester cloth.

                          Jon

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I don't know about repairing but I live in an area of no beaches as
                          they
                          > are understood elsewhere. Rocks with barnacles and occasionally
                          pebble
                          > beaches all with barnacles attached. Any boat that I plan on keeping
                          I
                          > have used Xynole on. Takes a lot of epoxy but it also takes a
                          beating. I
                          > have gone through 6 ox glass many times but never through the Xynole.
                          >
                          > HJ Juneau.
                        • Harry James
                          Don t think so, the informal test in Boatbuilding magazine that most of us use as a reference on this had epoxy without cloth as a control and it had
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
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                            Don't think so, the informal test in Boatbuilding magazine that most of
                            us use as a reference on this had epoxy without cloth as a control and
                            it had negligible resistance compared to the various cloths. Think about
                            it, how long does it take you to sand through three coats of epoxy as
                            opposed to 6 oz cloth and epoxy.

                            HJ


                            Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote:
                            > I think like Dynel it is the high amount of epoxy needed to use it that
                            > gives it the abrasion resistance not the fact it is polyester cloth.
                            >
                            > Jon
                            >
                            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >> I don't know about repairing but I live in an area of no beaches as
                            >>
                            > they
                            >
                            >> are understood elsewhere. Rocks with barnacles and occasionally
                            >>
                            > pebble
                            >
                            >> beaches all with barnacles attached. Any boat that I plan on keeping
                            >>
                            > I
                            >
                            >> have used Xynole on. Takes a lot of epoxy but it also takes a
                            >>
                            > beating. I
                            >
                            >> have gone through 6 ox glass many times but never through the Xynole.
                            >>
                            >> HJ Juneau.
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Kenneth Grome
                            ... In this case several layers of glass would be better than one layer of Xynole, but I don t think this is the case. I think the polyester lets the boat slip
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
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                              > I think like Dynel it is the high amount of epoxy needed
                              > to use it that gives it the abrasion resistance not the
                              > fact it is polyester cloth.

                              In this case several layers of glass would be better than
                              one layer of Xynole, but I don't think this is the case.

                              I think the polyester lets the boat slip off obstructions
                              better than glass. Graphite in epoxy is good for abrasion
                              resistance too -- because it lets the hull slip off of
                              things that would otherwise dig into it. I think polyester
                              works the same way.

                              I also think since it is a plastic fiber rather than glass,
                              polyester fibers are not broken as easily as glass.
                              Instead of breaking they bend and stretch which appears to
                              resist abrasion better than glass fibers.

                              Sincerely,
                              Ken Grome
                              Bagacay Boatworks
                              www.bagacayboatworks.com







                              >
                              > Jon
                              >
                              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...>
                              wrote:
                              > > I don't know about repairing but I live in an area of
                              > > no beaches as
                              >
                              > they
                              >
                              > > are understood elsewhere. Rocks with barnacles and
                              > > occasionally
                              >
                              > pebble
                              >
                              > > beaches all with barnacles attached. Any boat that I
                              > > plan on keeping
                              >
                              > I
                              >
                              > > have used Xynole on. Takes a lot of epoxy but it also
                              > > takes a
                              >
                              > beating. I
                              >
                              > > have gone through 6 ox glass many times but never
                              > > through the Xynole.
                              > >
                              > > HJ Juneau.
                            • Harry James
                              In the Boatbuilding test and I think you have quoted it Ken one layer of Xynole was four times as abrasion resistant as one layer of 6 oz glass. When the test
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 6, 2008
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                                In the Boatbuilding test and I think you have quoted it Ken one layer of
                                Xynole was four times as abrasion resistant as one layer of 6 oz glass.
                                When the test was adjusted for thickness of coating the Xynole was 2
                                times as abrasion resistant. As a practical matter, Xnole or Dynel is
                                much easier to work around corners of chines and such. If I bother with
                                glass at all I will always put Xynole or Dynel on the bottom. Glass on
                                the sides is just to stabilize the wood surface, glass on the bottom is
                                for abrasion resistance, why not do 4x effectiveness?

                                There is a web site out there that shows using 20 mil plastic and
                                rolling it out over glass/epoxy and leaving a mirror smooth finish. I
                                have often wondered how that technique would work over Xynole maybe
                                make filling the weave quicker. If anybody has that website link I
                                could use it, disappeared out of my files.

                                HJ

                                Kenneth Grome wrote:
                                >> I think like Dynel it is the high amount of epoxy needed
                                >> to use it that gives it the abrasion resistance not the
                                >> fact it is polyester cloth.
                                >>
                                >
                                > In this case several layers of glass would be better than
                                > one layer of Xynole, but I don't think this is the case.
                                >
                                > I think the polyester lets the boat slip off obstructions
                                > better than glass. Graphite in epoxy is good for abrasion
                                > resistance too -- because it lets the hull slip off of
                                > things that would otherwise dig into it. I think polyester
                                > works the same way.
                                >
                                > I also think since it is a plastic fiber rather than glass,
                                > polyester fibers are not broken as easily as glass.
                                > Instead of breaking they bend and stretch which appears to
                                > resist abrasion better than glass fibers.
                                >
                                > Sincerely,
                                > Ken Grome
                                > Bagacay Boatworks
                                > www.bagacayboatworks.com
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >> Jon
                                >>
                                >> --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...>
                                >>
                                > wrote:
                                >
                                >>> I don't know about repairing but I live in an area of
                                >>> no beaches as
                                >>>
                                >> they
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>> are understood elsewhere. Rocks with barnacles and
                                >>> occasionally
                                >>>
                                >> pebble
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>> beaches all with barnacles attached. Any boat that I
                                >>> plan on keeping
                                >>>
                                >> I
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>> have used Xynole on. Takes a lot of epoxy but it also
                                >>> takes a
                                >>>
                                >> beating. I
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>> have gone through 6 ox glass many times but never
                                >>> through the Xynole.
                                >>>
                                >>> HJ Juneau.
                                >>>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Bolger rules!!!
                                > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
                                > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
                                > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Ron Magen
                                Harry, et al . . . I have a South Haven Dory { clone of Gloucester Gull} that I am -that is will be , after Joanne s kitchen- refurbishing. The bottom is
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 7, 2008
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                                  Harry, et al . . .

                                  I have a 'South Haven' Dory {'clone' of Gloucester Gull} that I am -that is
                                  'will be', after Joanne's kitchen- refurbishing. The bottom is badly
                                  'checked', along with a almost broken off transom top. It is completely
                                  painted, so the first thing is to thoroughly sand to 'clean' wood.

                                  I've worked with glass, and the one thing that is the most troublesome is
                                  the 'itch' factor. I've heard a lot about the virtues of Dynel/Xynole - 'no
                                  itch' and conforms to curves/edges nicely. What I intend to do -to offset
                                  the epoxy 'suck-up' factor- is treat it like a fairing problem. . .
                                  a} sand, brush, and vacuum clean
                                  b} brush & roll a light coat of 'straight' THINNED epoxy
                                  c} mix up a batch of 'Q-Cel' {or Phonolic, or other light
                                  weight} filler, and apply a 'skim coat' with a NOTCHED
                                  spreader.
                                  d} lay in and 'rollout' the Dynel/Xynole cloth.
                                  e} wait for 'Green Stage' or beyond
                                  f} mix up & apply a SMOOTH skim 'top coat' of a harder
                                  {fumed silica admixture} filler.
                                  g} lightly sand & PAINT

                                  The sides will have just a layer of about a 1 ounce fabric, set in epoxy,
                                  'skimmed' & painted.

                                  This shouldn't add much weight -any would add to the 'ballast', anyway. Will
                                  most assuredly increase bottom abrasion resistance, and make outside storage
                                  {covered, of course} much less worrisome.

                                  Regards,
                                  Ron Magen
                                  Backyard Boatshop


                                  > Posted by: "Harry James" welshman@... harryjak
                                  > snip
                                  . . . one layer of Xynole was four times as abrasion resistant as one layer
                                  of 6 oz glass. When the test was adjusted for thickness of coating the
                                  Xynole was 2 times as abrasion resistant. As a practical matter, Xnole or
                                  Dynel is much easier to work around corners of chines and such. . . .
                                  > . . .
                                  > There is a web site out there that shows using 20 mil plastic and rolling
                                  > it out over glass/epoxy and leaving a mirror smooth finish. I have often
                                  > wondered how that technique would work over Xynole maybe make filling the
                                  > weave quicker. . .
                                • Kenneth Grome
                                  Ron, I think you should allow the fabric to suck up as much epoxy as it wants to suck up. When you apply a sheathing layer this layer is supposed to be filled
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Sep 7, 2008
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                                    Ron,

                                    I think you should allow the fabric to suck up as much epoxy
                                    as it wants to suck up. When you apply a sheathing layer
                                    this layer is supposed to be filled 100% with epoxy. It's
                                    not supposed to have air in it, but that's what your
                                    approach will do.

                                    The only reasonably effective way I can think of (at the
                                    moment) to use less epoxy with Xynole might be to vacuum
                                    bag it since this will put pressure on the cloth over its
                                    entire surface and *theoretically* flatten it uniformly --
                                    thereby reducing the volume of air spaces that would
                                    otherwise be filled with epoxy.

                                    By the way, you should never thin epoxy with any kind of
                                    solvents either. The only way you should thin epoxy is by
                                    heating it.

                                    Epoxy does not need to be thinned to work properly in the
                                    first place. This is a false assumption that too many
                                    people fall into these days, probably because they assume
                                    epoxy works like paint -- which it most certainly does not.
                                    Paint usually sticks better when the first coat is thinned,
                                    but this is not true of epoxy.

                                    By thinning epoxy with solvents all you're doing is
                                    perforating it with millions of tiny hollow tubes created
                                    by the solvents as they flow from within the epoxy to the
                                    surface so they can evaporate. These hollow tubes provide
                                    ideal pathways for moisture to get into the wood later.

                                    Sincerely,
                                    Ken Grome
                                    Bagacay Boatworks
                                    www.bagacayboatworks.com




                                    > What I intend to do -to offset the epoxy 'suck-up' factor
                                    > is treat it like a fairing problem. . .
                                    > a} sand, brush, and vacuum clean
                                    > b} brush & roll a light coat of 'straight' THINNED epoxy
                                    > c} mix up a batch of 'Q-Cel' {or Phonolic, or other light
                                    > weight} filler, and apply a 'skim coat' with a NOTCHED
                                    > spreader.
                                    > d} lay in and 'rollout' the Dynel/Xynole cloth.
                                    > e} wait for 'Green Stage' or beyond
                                    > f} mix up & apply a SMOOTH skim 'top coat' of a harder
                                    {fumed silica admixture} filler.
                                    > g} lightly sand & PAINT
                                  • Douglas Pollard
                                    You are absolutly right about the holes and varnish will do the same thing I watched guys varnishing boats in Florida and they added so much japan dries they
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Sep 7, 2008
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                                      You are absolutly right about the holes and varnish will do the same
                                      thing I watched guys varnishing boats in Florida and they added so much
                                      japan dries they were able to get three coats in one day. That stuff
                                      had to be like a sieve. I guess the fact that the holes seldom line up
                                      saves them?
                                      Doug



                                      Kenneth Grome wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Ron,
                                      >
                                      > I think you should allow the fabric to suck up as much epoxy
                                      > as it wants to suck up. When you apply a sheathing layer
                                      > this layer is supposed to be filled 100% with epoxy. It's
                                      > not supposed to have air in it, but that's what your
                                      > approach will do.
                                      >
                                      > The only reasonably effective way I can think of (at the
                                      > moment) to use less epoxy with Xynole might be to vacuum
                                      > bag it since this will put pressure on the cloth over its
                                      > entire surface and *theoretically* flatten it uniformly --
                                      > thereby reducing the volume of air spaces that would
                                      > otherwise be filled with epoxy.
                                      >
                                      > By the way, you should never thin epoxy with any kind of
                                      > solvents either. The only way you should thin epoxy is by
                                      > heating it.
                                      >
                                      > Epoxy does not need to be thinned to work properly in the
                                      > first place. This is a false assumption that too many
                                      > people fall into these days, probably because they assume
                                      > epoxy works like paint -- which it most certainly does not.
                                      > Paint usually sticks better when the first coat is thinned,
                                      > but this is not true of epoxy.
                                      >
                                      > By thinning epoxy with solvents all you're doing is
                                      > perforating it with millions of tiny hollow tubes created
                                      > by the solvents as they flow from within the epoxy to the
                                      > surface so they can evaporate. These hollow tubes provide
                                      > ideal pathways for moisture to get into the wood later.
                                      >
                                      > Sincerely,
                                      > Ken Grome
                                      > Bagacay Boatworks
                                      > www.bagacayboatworks.com
                                      >
                                      > > What I intend to do -to offset the epoxy 'suck-up' factor
                                      > > is treat it like a fairing problem. . .
                                      > > a} sand, brush, and vacuum clean
                                      > > b} brush & roll a light coat of 'straight' THINNED epoxy
                                      > > c} mix up a batch of 'Q-Cel' {or Phonolic, or other light
                                      > > weight} filler, and apply a 'skim coat' with a NOTCHED
                                      > > spreader.
                                      > > d} lay in and 'rollout' the Dynel/Xynole cloth.
                                      > > e} wait for 'Green Stage' or beyond
                                      > > f} mix up & apply a SMOOTH skim 'top coat' of a harder
                                      > {fumed silica admixture} filler.
                                      > > g} lightly sand & PAINT
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                                      6 oz. Dynel can take upto 4-6 times the epoxy to wet out and then finnesh so it would be a apples to oranges compaired to 6 oz. glass. Dynel is no where as
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Sep 7, 2008
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                                        6 oz. Dynel can take upto 4-6 times the epoxy to wet out and then
                                        finnesh so it would be a apples to oranges compaired to 6 oz. glass.
                                        Dynel is no where as strong as glass even with all the epoxy. My
                                        favorite way to add abrasion resistance is use cabosil in the fill
                                        and other coats after laying glass.

                                        Jon

                                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Don't think so, the informal test in Boatbuilding magazine that
                                        most of
                                        > us use as a reference on this had epoxy without cloth as a control
                                        and
                                        > it had negligible resistance compared to the various cloths. Think
                                        about
                                        > it, how long does it take you to sand through three coats of epoxy
                                        as
                                        > opposed to 6 oz cloth and epoxy.
                                        >
                                        > HJ
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Jon & Wanda(Tink) wrote:
                                        > > I think like Dynel it is the high amount of epoxy needed to use
                                        it that
                                        > > gives it the abrasion resistance not the fact it is polyester
                                        cloth.
                                        > >
                                        > > Jon
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Harry James <welshman@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >> I don't know about repairing but I live in an area of no beaches
                                        as
                                        > >>
                                        > > they
                                        > >
                                        > >> are understood elsewhere. Rocks with barnacles and occasionally
                                        > >>
                                        > > pebble
                                        > >
                                        > >> beaches all with barnacles attached. Any boat that I plan on
                                        keeping
                                        > >>
                                        > > I
                                        > >
                                        > >> have used Xynole on. Takes a lot of epoxy but it also takes a
                                        > >>
                                        > > beating. I
                                        > >
                                        > >> have gone through 6 ox glass many times but never through the
                                        Xynole.
                                        > >>
                                        > >> HJ Juneau.
                                        > >>
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Harry James
                                        Ron We built 3 Gull dories in my shop in 2003 before my last mobilization. I put Xynole on the bottom of all of them. The rest are all different as I am not
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Sep 7, 2008
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                                          Ron

                                          We built 3 Gull dories in my shop in 2003 before my last mobilization. I
                                          put Xynole on the bottom of all of them. The rest are all different as I
                                          am not very good at doing the same thing twice running. The Xnole was
                                          all done the same and Ken pretty well has the right of it on what I
                                          think is the best technique. I put the cloth on dry and poured on the
                                          epoxy and used a plastic spreader to level it off and it soaked in a
                                          lot. I then spread on another coat the next day. I sanded that one down
                                          rolled on a finish coat. I would not try to use filler until after the
                                          cloth is filled with epoxy. My estimate is it took about 3 times the
                                          epoxy of 6 oz cloth and as I have said before I have never gone through
                                          it on our beaches. I have gone through 6 oz cloth rather easily. This is
                                          not about strength, fiberglass is stronger than Xynole in both tension
                                          and compression. It is about abrasion resistance. Jon thinks it is the
                                          extra epoxy and would rather use cabosil for extra abrasion resistance.
                                          I have a different opinion based on my experience which is just fine,
                                          you get to make your mind up and then have "your" opinion. If you want
                                          strength and abrasion resistance the Arimid Kevlar is very abrasion
                                          resistant and way stronger in tension then fiberglass. It doesn't do
                                          compression well but nobodies perfect. I can email you some pics of
                                          putting on the Xynole if you want them. Someday I have to put it
                                          together for a Duckworks article.

                                          Still looking for that plastic over epoxy site.

                                          HJ


                                          Ron Magen wrote:
                                          > Harry, et al . . .
                                          >
                                          > I have a 'South Haven' Dory {'clone' of Gloucester Gull} that I am -that is
                                          > 'will be', after Joanne's kitchen- refurbishing. The bottom is badly
                                          > 'checked', along with a almost broken off transom top. It is completely
                                          > painted, so the first thing is to thoroughly sand to 'clean' wood.
                                          >
                                          > I've worked with glass, and the one thing that is the most troublesome is
                                          > the 'itch' factor. I've heard a lot about the virtues of Dynel/Xynole - 'no
                                          > itch' and conforms to curves/edges nicely. What I intend to do -to offset
                                          > the epoxy 'suck-up' factor- is treat it like a fairing problem. . .
                                          > a} sand, brush, and vacuum clean
                                          > b} brush & roll a light coat of 'straight' THINNED epoxy
                                          > c} mix up a batch of 'Q-Cel' {or Phonolic, or other light
                                          > weight} filler, and apply a 'skim coat' with a NOTCHED
                                          > spreader.
                                          > d} lay in and 'rollout' the Dynel/Xynole cloth.
                                          > e} wait for 'Green Stage' or beyond
                                          > f} mix up & apply a SMOOTH skim 'top coat' of a harder
                                          > {fumed silica admixture} filler.
                                          > g} lightly sand & PAINT
                                          >
                                          > The sides will have just a layer of about a 1 ounce fabric, set in epoxy,
                                          > 'skimmed' & painted.
                                          >
                                          > This shouldn't add much weight -any would add to the 'ballast', anyway. Will
                                          > most assuredly increase bottom abrasion resistance, and make outside storage
                                          > {covered, of course} much less worrisome.
                                          >
                                          > Regards,
                                          > Ron Magen
                                          > Backyard Boatshop
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >> Posted by: "Harry James" welshman@... harryjak
                                          >> snip
                                          >>
                                          > . . . one layer of Xynole was four times as abrasion resistant as one layer
                                          > of 6 oz glass. When the test was adjusted for thickness of coating the
                                          > Xynole was 2 times as abrasion resistant. As a practical matter, Xnole or
                                          > Dynel is much easier to work around corners of chines and such. . . .
                                          >
                                          >> . . .
                                          >> There is a web site out there that shows using 20 mil plastic and rolling
                                          >> it out over glass/epoxy and leaving a mirror smooth finish. I have often
                                          >> wondered how that technique would work over Xynole maybe make filling the
                                          >> weave quicker. . .
                                          >>
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • c o'donnell
                                          I did an experiment a while back with light glass (2 oz?) and acrylic latex (or epoxy fortified) porch paint. The goal was to stop checking on a hatch cover.
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Sep 8, 2008
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                                            I did an experiment a while back with light glass (2 oz?) and acrylic
                                            latex (or epoxy fortified) porch paint. The goal was to stop checking
                                            on a hatch cover.

                                            You paint the cloth down, basically, like people used to do with
                                            canvas. Fast undercoat, drop the cloth down, top coat. It works well.
                                            However, not recommended for any part that will be underwater
                                            constantly. If checking painting ply is the issue, porch or garage
                                            floor paint and glass works well without boosting the weight.

                                            On Sep 8, 2008, at 12:08 AM, Harry James wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > and compression. It is about abrasion resistance. Jon thinks it is the
                                            > extra epoxy and would rather use cabosil for extra abrasion
                                            > resistance.
                                            >
                                            >





                                            Another recommendation has been to use corborundum (powder) in epoxy.
                                            Carborundum will abrade the rocks. I think I read of this in an
                                            article on west coast drift boats ...



                                            === craig o'donnell
                                            dadadata@...
                                            Box 232 Betterton Md 21610





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