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Re: [bolger] Re:Weston Martyr - Not for $200 nor Millionaire - but how much?

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  • Douglas Pollard
    Yep I think you ve been around. What I was trying to say was that yours mine or anybody s boat may prove different in different waters or they may not. Which
    Message 1 of 27 , Jul 2, 2008
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      Yep I think you've been around. What I was trying to say was that yours
      mine or anybody's boat may prove different in different waters or they
      may not. Which of course, I guess goes without saying. I had a Bolger
      boat that had a small amount of dead rise and she set pretty flat most
      of the time but she had a quick short motion as do most catamarans that
      I have been on but only in just the right chop.

      Doug


      loosemoosefilmworks wrote:
      >
      > I suspect you
      > > used your boat in the right conditions for her shape. Someone half
      > > way around the world may find her a disaster in his seas.
      > > Doug
      >
      > Well I might have strayed a bit from home waters with Loose Moose 2...
      >
      > Bob
      > http://boatbits.blogspot.com/ <http://boatbits.blogspot.com/>
      >
      >
    • ANDREW AIREY
      The point about using steel for WM is that it was intended to be used in circumstances where it might expect to get a lot of inadvertent hammering - locks and
      Message 2 of 27 , Jul 3, 2008
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        The point about using steel for WM is that it was intended to be used in circumstances where it might expect to get a lot of inadvertent hammering - locks and shoals for example and to be reasonably indestructible in those situations.If I was not constrained by the 7ft lock limitation I might be tempted to go the other way and see how a metal AS39 would work out.
        Something mentioned in the original article which I think is incorrect is the temperature effects.Narrowboat experience in the UK is that you can keep them tolerably warm in winter with a pot stove,or,if you want to be posh,a diesel heater of some sort,but that they can get a bit warm in the summer.Since OZ is reputed to be a bit warmer than the UK this might be something you would need to look at.
        One thing PCB did not make clear in the article was how much INLAND sailing WM would be expected to do.I think that you can probably discount sailing on the narrow canals but it ought to be capable of sailing wherever sailing barges used to operate,ie Thames,Humber,Severn,Norfolk Broads and Holland.Now the Channel and North Sea coasts might be the home of the Dipping Lug but in practise it seems to have been mainly used in fishing boats,to which it is ideally suited.(Fast out and home,gear stows out of the way when working the nets,AND,the extra bodies needed to work the nets can also manage the sail and yard when tacking).Everybody else used about half the number of bodies(typically 2,or 2 + a lad if it was a very big barge)and a different rig,mostly Gaff.(Humber Keels used square rig and Thames barges used spritsails).So it will depend on how many people you want as crew,although,as PCB remarked somewhere else,you can always use the engine to tack
        with.
        cheers
        andy airey

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      • ANDREW AIREY
        One other form of rolling,potentially unpleasant,is when you re grounded out on a shoal or mudbank,and the tide comes up the estuary and rolls you over.This
        Message 3 of 27 , Jul 3, 2008
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          One other form of rolling,potentially unpleasant,is when you're grounded out on a shoal or mudbank,and the tide comes up the estuary and rolls you over.This was a known hazard on the Humber where it was common practise in barging days to go hell for leather down the Trent on the ebb,and then sit out on a convenient shoal down by Trent Falls,where the Trent joins the Ouse to make the Humber,and wait for the tide to turn.
          cheers
          andy airey

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        • Frank Bales
          Hi all, I m coming out from under my rock to ask a question.  Is anyone building any of the larger Bolger designs like the AS39, or the State named boats
          Message 4 of 27 , Jul 3, 2008
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            Hi all, I'm coming out from under my rock to ask a question.  Is anyone building any of the larger Bolger designs like the AS39, or the State named boats (Tennessee, etc.), or even the Tahiti?  There's very little to be found on the Internet about any of the bigger bolger designs.  Why is that?  Wasn't there someone in Quebec building a steel AS39?  And what about the guy in Florida who was building the Tahiti?  It seems strange that someone like Phil Bolger is not found more on the Internet.  I'd sure like to know more about those boats from those that have built them.

            Frank
            Montgomery AL





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Peter Lenihan
            ... anyone building any of the larger Bolger designs like the AS39, or the State named boats (Tennessee, etc.), or even the Tahiti?  There s very little to be
            Message 5 of 27 , Jul 3, 2008
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Frank Bales <frank_bales@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi all, I'm coming out from under my rock to ask a question.  Is
              anyone building any of the larger Bolger designs like the AS39, or
              the State named boats (Tennessee, etc.), or even the Tahiti? 
              There's very little to be found on the Internet about any of the
              bigger bolger designs.  Why is that?  Wasn't there someone in Quebec
              building a steel AS39?  And what about the guy in Florida who was
              building the Tahiti?  It seems strange that someone like Phil Bolger
              is not found more on the Internet.  I'd sure like to know more about
              those boats from those that have built them.
              >
              > Frank
              > Montgomery AL

              Frank,

              Cannot speak for the other designs but here are some pictures of the
              AS-39 built in Quebec:

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger7/files/Le%20Cabotin%20%28%20AS-
              39%29/

              in the files section of Bolger group7 under Le Cabotin.The owners
              are planning to sail down the St.Lawrence this summer and winter
              over in Newfoundland before crossing the Atlantic.

              Sincerely,

              Peter Lenihan
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Harry James
              There are quite a few pictures of large projects in the files and photos of the seven Bolger groups. No order rhyme or reason, you just have to look. Peter
              Message 6 of 27 , Jul 3, 2008
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                There are quite a few pictures of large projects in the files and photos
                of the seven Bolger groups. No order rhyme or reason, you just have to
                look.

                Peter Lenihan posted pictures on Le Cabotin an AS 39.

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger7/files/Le%20Cabotin%20%28%20AS-39%29/

                There are pics of his Windermere, nearing completion in the files
                somewhere also. These are big boats requiring years of commitment, not
                too many have the dedication to complete such projects.

                Building the Double Eagle "Great Land"

                http://thegreatsea.homestead.com/

                HJ

                Frank Bales wrote:
                > Hi all, I'm coming out from under my rock to ask a question. Is anyone building any of the larger Bolger designs like the AS39, or the State named boats (Tennessee, etc.), or even the Tahiti? There's very little to be found on the Internet about any of the bigger bolger designs. Why is that? Wasn't there someone in Quebec building a steel AS39? And what about the guy in Florida who was building the Tahiti? It seems strange that someone like Phil Bolger is not found more on the Internet. I'd sure like to know more about those boats from those that have built them.
                >
                > Frank
                > Montgomery AL
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Bolger rules!!!
                > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
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                > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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              • graeme19121984
                ... grounded out on a shoal or mudbank,and the tide comes up the estuary and rolls you over. How s that happen Andy? Is that due to a tidal bore knocking you
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 4, 2008
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                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY <andyairey@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > One other form of rolling,potentially unpleasant,is when you're
                  grounded out on a shoal or mudbank,and the tide comes up the estuary
                  and rolls you over.

                  How's that happen Andy?

                  Is that due to a tidal bore knocking you over, or due to being grounded
                  on a bank at too large an angle of heel?

                  Graeme
                • graeme19121984
                  ... Yep, steel is tough, and as the saying goes: nothing seals like steel. Easy to repair - and supplies and know-how almost anywhere. The maintenance must
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 4, 2008
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                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY <andyairey@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The point about using steel for WM ...

                    Yep, steel is tough, and as the saying goes: "nothing seals like
                    steel." Easy to repair - and supplies and know-how almost anywhere.
                    The maintenance must be attended to, as with anything else I suppose.

                    Yes, I wondered about the heating: on how the internal cabin volume
                    is not large, and in temperate waters it would seem a small heater
                    would do. Then again I believe in winter Bolger always had a heater
                    going in his Resolution clad from higher R value material.

                    Where it's warm and sunny a thin walled steel tank is going to get
                    quite hot inside. Definately white topsides/deck (awning too?), but
                    also maybe insulation under the deck. More attention to ventilation
                    than shown in the article could help too, with a large cowl rigged to
                    catch any breeze when moored and direct it below decks etc. Still,
                    there are plenty of professional and owner built steel yachts about
                    so they can be habitable. I think PB&F wished to avoid the
                    complication, and expense, of the various methods of
                    protecting/insulating the steel.

                    Do you think the Weston Martyr building procedure is designed
                    similarly, or adaptable to that of the 2nd stage of the Jesse Cooper
                    build? If the mostly erected hull is upright on the ground with large
                    openings in the sides for easy access, then the internal fit out
                    would be less of a chore. There's plenty of incomplete hulls about,
                    and it seems the slowness (& expense) of fitting out could be a major
                    reason why projects are abandoned.

                    I reckon this dipping lug would be mostly tacked with help from the
                    motor. I also think it would mostly be shortened too. On small
                    expanses of water I wonder if the two sharpie sails alone might not
                    provide sufficient propulsion in a breeze? They certainly should tack
                    easily enough, and help manouvere the boat.

                    Could the mainsail have a boom fitted for sailing more confined
                    waters; maybe turn it into an optional loose-footed balanced lug?

                    I think a steel AS39 would be a goer. And maybe not too long now
                    before plywood runs out anyway - forest clearance, climate change,
                    and bio-fuels etc.. - peak ply?

                    Graeme
                  • Sam Glasscock
                    Frank, I have built the Topaz, which is a small 31 footer, and will be building a Tennessee this winter.  These are long boats but not large displacement,
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 4, 2008
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                      Frank, I have built the Topaz, which is a small 31 footer, and will be building a Tennessee this winter.  These are long boats but not large displacement, require small effort, unlike some of Bolgers large-dispacement designs.  Sam

                      --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Frank Bales <frank_bales@...> wrote:

                      From: Frank Bales <frank_bales@...>
                      Subject: [bolger] Large Bolger Designs?
                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 11:39 PM






                      Hi all, I'm coming out from under my rock to ask a question.  Is anyone building any of the larger Bolger designs like the AS39, or the State named boats (Tennessee, etc.), or even the Tahiti?  There's very little to be found on the Internet about any of the bigger bolger designs.  Why is that?  Wasn't there someone in Quebec building a steel AS39?  And what about the guy in Florida who was building the Tahiti?  It seems strange that someone like Phil Bolger is not found more on the Internet.  I'd sure like to know more about those boats from those that have built them.

                      Frank
                      Montgomery AL

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Douglas Pollard
                      Speaking of Larger Bolger boats, I have talked about Wolftrap in my blog. She was featured in Bolgers book different boats back in the 1980 s. My blog
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 4, 2008
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                        Speaking of Larger Bolger boats, I have talked about Wolftrap in my
                        blog. She was featured in Bolgers book different boats back in the
                        1980's. My blog goes through building, dealing with Bolger, the
                        decision to build and sailing Wolftrap to the Bahamas. If you are
                        interested go to my blog Sailboats Fair and Fine and read . Start of the
                        bottom of the blog archive on the left side at the bottom click on
                        2006(9) and that will start you at the beginning of the story. The
                        story is not finshed and I will start writing to it again in the fall. I
                        am also making a video of the whole trip. The first week of the video is
                        finshed so there is a long way to go to cover a year of cruising
                        aboard Wolftrap.
                        Doug
                        http://dundalkfarms.blogspot.com/


                        Sam Glasscock wrote:
                        >
                        > Frank, I have built the Topaz, which is a small 31 footer, and will be
                        > building a Tennessee this winter. These are long boats but not large
                        > displacement, require small effort, unlike some of Bolgers
                        > large-dispacement designs. Sam
                        >
                        > --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Frank Bales <frank_bales@...
                        > <mailto:frank_bales%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: Frank Bales <frank_bales@... <mailto:frank_bales%40yahoo.com>>
                        > Subject: [bolger] Large Bolger Designs?
                        > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 11:39 PM
                        >
                        > Hi all, I'm coming out from under my rock to ask a question. Is
                        > anyone building any of the larger Bolger designs like the AS39, or the
                        > State named boats (Tennessee, etc.), or even the Tahiti? There's very
                        > little to be found on the Internet about any of the bigger bolger
                        > designs. Why is that? Wasn't there someone in Quebec building a
                        > steel AS39? And what about the guy in Florida who was building the
                        > Tahiti? It seems strange that someone like Phil Bolger is not found
                        > more on the Internet. I'd sure like to know more about those boats
                        > from those that have built them.
                        >
                        > Frank
                        > Montgomery AL
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                      • Col
                        I ve uploaded some pictures of a very well made AS29 (I think) into the photos section under Gecko. I couldn t find any reference to this boat on a search of
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 6, 2008
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                          I've uploaded some pictures of a very well made AS29 (I think) into
                          the photos section under Gecko. I couldn't find any reference to
                          this boat on a search of the group.
                          Cheers,
                          Col

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Frank Bales <frank_bales@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi all, I'm coming out from under my rock to ask a question.  Is
                          anyone building any of the larger Bolger designs like the AS39, or
                          the State named boats (Tennessee, etc.), or even the Tahiti? 
                          There's very little to be found on the Internet about any of the
                          bigger bolger designs.  Why is that?  Wasn't there someone in Quebec
                          building a steel AS39?  And what about the guy in Florida who was
                          building the Tahiti?  It seems strange that someone like Phil Bolger
                          is not found more on the Internet.  I'd sure like to know more about
                          those boats from those that have built them.
                          >
                          > Frank
                          > Montgomery AL
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • ANDREW AIREY
                          I suppose it could be either.The Humber has a lot of mudbanks and shoals and the Trent has a small tidal bore - the Aegir - which,although smaller than the
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 6, 2008
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                            I suppose it could be either.The Humber has a lot of mudbanks and shoals and the Trent has a small tidal bore - the Aegir - which,although smaller than the better known Severn bore,could still make life interesting.I went down the Trent from Keadby on a 70ft narrowboat that my friend Neil was moving to Rotherham a few years ago.You can't get a 70ft boat from Keadby to Rotherham on the canal because when they upgraded the Sheffield and South Yorkshire system a few years ago to take 750ton Euroships they concentrated on The New Junction cut down to Goole docks and left one of the locks at Thorne on the original line to Keadby at the old length of about 60ft.Neil booked a pilot and we dropped down to Trent Falls on the ebb with the engine on tickover,motored across the Humber and tied up at a wharf to wait for the tide to turn and then went up to Goole on the flood. Interesting day
                            cheers
                            andy airey

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                          • ANDREW AIREY
                            Hi Graeme Having had my say about the various rigs I turned up an old photo on ebay this morning (320268722719) showing a couple of barges at Putney both
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 6, 2008
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                              Hi Graeme

                              Having had my say about the various rigs I turned up an old photo on ebay this morning (320268722719) showing a couple of barges at Putney both apparently fitted with dipping lugsails.Since getting upstream to Putney would involve shooting several bridges this may be what was known as bridge rig and was probably easier to drop than the spritsails normally used,although these were arranged so that the mast could be lowered if necessary.I think that the usual procedure later on for those was to drop the mast and then get a tow upriver,although if they were only going as far as the pool of london,just beyond Tower bridge,then that would be opened for them - I was stuck in traffic on the southern approach to the bridge a few months back waiting for a sailing barge to clear the bridge.

                              Usual procedure with narrowboats seems to be to build them from the bottom up using 10mm flat plate cut about 1cm oversize so that all the welding is downwards - similar to Lions Paw.A friend who used to build them said that he could knock out a shell in about 3 weeks with a bit of labouring assistance,and WM is probably a simpler proposition once you've sorted out how to put the rocker in the base.The expense of fitting out a hull is going to be proportionate to the size though so a cheap hull,although a welcome saving,doesn't necessarily mean that the rest of the boat will be cheap.It sounds as if a lot of people who were building ferrocement boats a few years back hadn't quite grasped that.

                              I think that if the dipping lug wasn't too suitable for river work I'd be inclined to rerig simply with a squaresail as in the Humber Keels.It all depends how the boat would be used.They can be fairly closewinded - see the sites dealing with the preserved example - and if you are not in a particular hurry to get anywhere then you can wait for a wind anyway.Thames barges mounted a small spritsail on the rudder to help with the steering after the barges started increasing in size and length a couple of hundred years ago
                              cheers
                              andy airey
                              PS I have a legal set of plans for the AS39 that I'm not sure that I'm going to use but might be interested in doing a swop for a set of 'Colonel Hasler' plans

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                            • c o'donnell
                              It s very hard to say from the photo s size but I think they re standing lugs (can t see if there s a boom or not) since typically dipping lugs did not bring
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 6, 2008
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                                It's very hard to say from the photo's size but I think they're
                                standing lugs (can't see if there's a boom or not) since typically
                                dipping lugs did not bring the tack to the base of the mast. Appear
                                to be brailed standing lugs aft, my eyes ain't good enough to say if
                                they are on the rudder to aid tacking or not.

                                These may be canalboats as opposed to the Thames barges that did
                                coastal work? They are very much smaller.


                                On Jul 6, 2008, at 12:40 PM, ANDREW AIREY wrote:

                                > Hi Graeme
                                >
                                > Having had my say about the various rigs I turned up an old photo
                                > on ebay this morning (320268722719) showing a couple of barges at
                                > Putney both apparently fitted with dipping lugsails.Since getting
                                > upstream to Putney would involve shooting several bridges this may
                                > be what was known as bridge rig and was probably easier to drop
                                > than the spritsails normally used,although these were arranged so
                                > that the mast could be lowered if necessary.I think that the usual
                                > procedure later on for those was to drop the mast and then get a
                                > tow upriver,although if they were only going as far as the pool of
                                > london,just beyond Tower bridge,then that would be opened for them
                                > - I was stuck in traffic on the southern approach to the bridge a
                                > few months back waiting for a sailing barge to clear the bridge.
                                >
                                > Usual procedure with narrowboats seems to be to build them from the
                                > bottom up using 10mm flat plate cut about 1cm oversize so that all
                                > the welding is downwards - similar to Lions Paw.A friend who used
                                > to build them said that he could knock out a shell in about 3 weeks
                                > with a bit of labouring assistance,and WM is probably a simpler
                                > proposition once you've sorted out how to put the rocker in the
                                > base.The expense of fitting out a hull is going to be proportionate
                                > to the size though so a cheap hull,although a welcome
                                > saving,doesn't necessarily mean that the rest of the boat will be
                                > cheap.It sounds as if a lot of people who were building ferrocement
                                > boats a few years back hadn't quite grasped that.
                                >
                                > I think that if the dipping lug wasn't too suitable for river work
                                > I'd be inclined to rerig simply with a squaresail as in the Humber
                                > Keels.It all depends how the boat would be used.They can be fairly
                                > closewinded - see the sites dealing with the preserved example -
                                > and if you are not in a particular hurry to get anywhere then you
                                > can wait for a wind anyway.Thames barges mounted a small spritsail
                                > on the rudder to help with the steering after the barges started
                                > increasing in size and length a couple of hundred years ago
                                > cheers
                                > andy airey
                                > PS I have a legal set of plans for the AS39 that I'm not sure that
                                > I'm going to use but might be interested in doing a swop for a set
                                > of 'Colonel Hasler' plans
                                >
                                > Send instant messages to your online friends http://
                                > uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                                >
                                >



                                === craig o'donnell
                                dadadata@...
                                Box 232 Betterton Md 21610





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • ANDREW AIREY
                                Should have done more research.Frank Carr in his book on sailing barges says that bridge sails were a species of small square headed lugsail, although the
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 7, 2008
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                                  Should have done more research.Frank Carr in his book on sailing barges says that 'bridge sails' were a species of small square headed lugsail, although the normal mizzen and,possibly,a small foresail might also be used.There is a picture of a pair of barges further downriver,almost identical to the ones in the ebay photo,on p118 in the 1989 edition of his book.In which case both will be barges,rather than narrowboats,and the nearer one will be one of the old 'swimheads'.Thames barges were built in great numbers and all lengths from about 40ft upwards,originally as swimheads(think lighter or very large Tortoise)then,after about 1850, increasingly with the pointed bow and straight stem of the modern barge. The Thames barge races demonstrated that the new style was faster and must have helped to popularise it,but the old swimheads were still competing in the 1890's and the last one was still trading into the 1930's carrying 'gas water' up round the coast
                                  of East Anglia.(Gas water or coal tar is the liquid distillate from the old gas coking plants).The others had probably finished up as lighters.The Port of London Authority comissioned a series of photos of the Thames in 1937 and the swimhead lighters shown in those have some shape to them,as if they had been sailing craft at one time,rather than the more angular form of the modern steel swimheads.The depression of the 1930's probably eliminated most of the smaller barges.
                                  cheers
                                  andy airey

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                                • graeme19121984
                                  Col, That Gecko looks a really sweet boat, thanks for the pics. Where is it? NSW? http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/browse/282e Graeme
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jul 9, 2008
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                                    Col,

                                    That Gecko looks a really sweet boat, thanks for the pics. Where is it?
                                    NSW?
                                    http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/browse/282e

                                    Graeme

                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Col" <colmooney@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I've uploaded some pictures of a very well made AS29 (I think) into
                                    > the photos section under Gecko. I couldn't find any reference to
                                    > this boat on a search of the group.
                                    > Cheers,
                                    > Col
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