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Re:Weston Martyr - Not for $200 nor Millionaire - but how much?

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  • graeme19121984
    I thought about Lion s Paw; and about how the builder found that so easy to build, just like Bolger said. I wonder if rolling at anchor might not be worse than
    Message 1 of 27 , Jun 30, 2008
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      I thought about Lion's Paw; and about how the builder found that so
      easy to build, just like Bolger said. I wonder if rolling at anchor
      might not be worse than heeling for either boat?

      Lion's Paw is only a foot wider on the bottom, but as it's 3 inches
      deeper in draft and much shorter it would likely heel to an even
      greater angle than Weston Martyr, and that is without considering the
      greater sail area of Lion's Paw. I don't see heeling as such a
      problem for a cruiser as time is mostly spent not at sea, nor even
      under sail. (I think I recall stats to the effect that most live-
      aboard cruisers spend 90% or more of their time moored.) It's a given
      too that when sailing the performance of these sharpie boats is in
      large part due to their heel angle allowing them to slice through the
      water. My feeling is that in Weston Martyr, for not much expense in
      the extra 6 feet of LOA, larger and better set out accommodations are
      gained, 2000lbs extra displacement, along with a nice and seaworthy
      centre cockpit, and THAT lug rig. The Weston Martyr bilgeboard could
      easily be replaced by stowable leeboards, I guess. It's interesting
      that there is only one bilgeboard drawn like for the AS39, and not
      two like there is for the AS29.

      Andy, I don't know about cruising the UK canals either, or any others
      though that's all a nice possibility, but the narrowness (and strong
      bottom) could be handy to get far inland up any river or creek, or in
      gaining restricted entry to a protected coral lagoon. Along with a
      couple of Tortoises there's space on deck for an outboard powered
      skiff, say a Diablo or Fast Brick, that could share the motor of the
      mother ship. If the Weston Martyr had two outboards fitted, and I
      think there may be room enough as drawn, then once accustomed to the
      heeling under full sail this boat might engender a state of mind not
      unlike ataraxia.

      Graeme
    • Fred Schumacher
      I played around with using Weston Martyr as a starting point for designing a motorsailer to fit inside a 40 foot shipping container. I widened it to 7.4 feet
      Message 2 of 27 , Jul 1, 2008
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        I played around with using Weston Martyr as a starting point for designing a
        motorsailer to fit inside a 40 foot shipping container. I widened it to 7.4
        feet and shortened to 39.5 with a 7.4 foot height over all so it would go
        inside a standard, not hicube, container. Put a bow transom on it, a box
        keel underneath, and moved the center cockpit aft six feet. With the box
        keel there's standing headroom throughout. The main mast is in a trunked
        tabernacle, tilting forward, and drains through the single offset
        centerboard to one side of the box keel. Two 200 gallon tanks are at
        midship, with berths above. Engine would be a small, light industrial diesel
        like a Hatz 3W35. I'm no Phil Bolger, but I like using his concepts as
        mental exercises. If I were to build a boat like this, I would want to use
        pressure-treated plywood, with the hull skin as a torsion-box, that is,
        treated plywood outside, one inch of foam, and 3/8" baltic birch on the
        inside, all glued and screwed. It would be tough, insulated and unsinkable.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • ANDREW AIREY
        Go for it.I ve just been watching a couple of videos of narrowboats being taken to sea round the coast of the UK,admittedly in very good conditions. I think
        Message 3 of 27 , Jul 1, 2008
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          Go for it.I've just been watching a couple of videos of narrowboats being taken to sea round the coast of the UK,admittedly in very good conditions. I think that PCB was concerned about the comfort angle on what would have been a long sea trip from New Zealand.She would roll a bit at anchor,but having the mast up and the bilgeboard down would help a lot.My thoughts were that the accomodation on WM were a bit cramped,particularly the headroom,but at 6'8" I'm always going to have problems with that.I may have another look at WM but my thoughts are more on the lines of sailing barges.I've got a share in a narrowboat so I'm not so restricted over widths
          cheers
          andy airey

          Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
        • Kenneth Grome
          ... Hi Fred, Another option would be to use regular marine plywood or MDO that s been manually treated with Copper Naphthenate. Apparently the CN doesn t
          Message 4 of 27 , Jul 1, 2008
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            > If I were to build a boat like this, I would
            > want to use pressure-treated plywood ...


            Hi Fred,

            Another option would be to use regular marine plywood or MDO
            that's been manually treated with Copper Naphthenate.
            Apparently the CN doesn't corrode fasteners like the
            pressure treating chemicals do.

            Sincerely,
            Ken Grome
            Bagacay Boatworks
            www.bagacayboatworks.com
          • loosemoosefilmworks
            Having spent a thousand nights or so aboard Loose Moose 2 at anchor ( and another thousand or so on our Jessie Cooper) I think that it is important to point
            Message 5 of 27 , Jul 2, 2008
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              Having spent a thousand nights or so aboard Loose Moose 2 at anchor (
              and another thousand or so on our Jessie Cooper) I think that it is
              important to point out that the various square Bolger cruising boats
              (As 29,LM2 and suchlike)roll much less than their more shapely brethren...

              It was often a great surprise to our round bilge friends that when
              they were visiting LM2 that the boat rolled so little and that our
              comfort level in rolly anchorages was much better.

              Of course if you use the example of a cracker box on a table being
              less rolly than a coke bottle on its side it might give you a bit of
              insight as to the why of it.

              The other misconception is being narrow that rolling is more while our
              experience is that narrow to a point translates into up and down
              motion with the swell rather than side to side motion against..

              For sure there were more than a few nights that we were in anchorages
              that were uncomfortable but that is simply part of the whole sailing
              living on a boat gig...If there was no downside everyone would be
              doing it!

              Bob
              http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
            • Bruce Hallman
              ... Ditto for the Micro. Much less rolly than similar sized round bottom boats.
              Message 6 of 27 , Jul 2, 2008
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                > I think that it is
                > important to point out that the various square Bolger cruising boats
                > (As 29,LM2 and suchlike)roll much less than their more shapely brethren...


                Ditto for the Micro. Much less 'rolly' than similar sized round bottom boats.
              • Fred Schumacher
                On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:18 AM, loosemoosefilmworks
                Message 7 of 27 , Jul 2, 2008
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                  On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:18 AM, loosemoosefilmworks <
                  loosemoosefilmworks@...> wrote:

                  > The other misconception is being narrow that rolling is more while our
                  > experience is that narrow to a point translates into up and down
                  > motion with the swell rather than side to side motion against..
                  >





                  Some years ago when my son and I motored June Bug across Lake Vermilion (a
                  large lake in northern Minnesota) through a windy 1 to 2 foot chop, while
                  all the speedboats hugged the south shore, the feeling I got was that of a
                  duck riding on the water. The boat's motion was up and down, even though the
                  waves were on our beam, and we only shipped a cup of water on a 5 mile ride
                  straight across the middle of the lake.

                  Fred Schumacher


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Douglas Pollard
                  I experienced a very simular kind of thing an a Fantaisia 35 she had a v bottom with a very large turn in the bulge and a large radius at what would be the
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jul 2, 2008
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                    I experienced a very simular kind of thing an a Fantaisia 35 she had a v
                    bottom with a very large turn in the bulge and a large radius at what
                    would be the chine, if she had one. Hers was a different condition
                    though in that she had a heavy rig that created a very slow roll. In
                    most conditions she rolled so slow with such a long roll that most wave
                    conditions including powerboat wakes could not roll her at all. AS you
                    have mentioned she bobbed slowly up and down. I never experienced a
                    wave length that would roll her to any extent but I believe one exists
                    . In that situation I think she may have rolled violently and I
                    suspect that your narrow flat bottomed hull would do the same. If the
                    waves are right most any boat will roll and under the right
                    circumstance she may roll your guts out. I guess the right boat is one
                    that does not roll badly in the conditions you will use her in. I think
                    everyone has his boat and it used in his own conditions. I suspect you
                    used your boat in the right conditions for her shape. Someone half
                    way around the world may find her a disaster in his seas.
                    Doug



                    Fred Schumacher wrote:
                    >
                    > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:18 AM, loosemoosefilmworks <
                    > loosemoosefilmworks@...
                    > <mailto:loosemoosefilmworks%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                    >
                    > > The other misconception is being narrow that rolling is more while our
                    > > experience is that narrow to a point translates into up and down
                    > > motion with the swell rather than side to side motion against..
                    > >
                    >
                    > Some years ago when my son and I motored June Bug across Lake Vermilion (a
                    > large lake in northern Minnesota) through a windy 1 to 2 foot chop, while
                    > all the speedboats hugged the south shore, the feeling I got was that of a
                    > duck riding on the water. The boat's motion was up and down, even
                    > though the
                    > waves were on our beam, and we only shipped a cup of water on a 5 mile
                    > ride
                    > straight across the middle of the lake.
                    >
                    > Fred Schumacher
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                  • loosemoosefilmworks
                    I suspect you ... Well I might have strayed a bit from home waters with Loose Moose 2... Bob http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jul 2, 2008
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                      I suspect you
                      > used your boat in the right conditions for her shape. Someone half
                      > way around the world may find her a disaster in his seas.
                      > Doug

                      Well I might have strayed a bit from home waters with Loose Moose 2...

                      Bob
                      http://boatbits.blogspot.com/
                    • Douglas Pollard
                      Yep I think you ve been around. What I was trying to say was that yours mine or anybody s boat may prove different in different waters or they may not. Which
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jul 2, 2008
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                        Yep I think you've been around. What I was trying to say was that yours
                        mine or anybody's boat may prove different in different waters or they
                        may not. Which of course, I guess goes without saying. I had a Bolger
                        boat that had a small amount of dead rise and she set pretty flat most
                        of the time but she had a quick short motion as do most catamarans that
                        I have been on but only in just the right chop.

                        Doug


                        loosemoosefilmworks wrote:
                        >
                        > I suspect you
                        > > used your boat in the right conditions for her shape. Someone half
                        > > way around the world may find her a disaster in his seas.
                        > > Doug
                        >
                        > Well I might have strayed a bit from home waters with Loose Moose 2...
                        >
                        > Bob
                        > http://boatbits.blogspot.com/ <http://boatbits.blogspot.com/>
                        >
                        >
                      • ANDREW AIREY
                        The point about using steel for WM is that it was intended to be used in circumstances where it might expect to get a lot of inadvertent hammering - locks and
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jul 3, 2008
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                          The point about using steel for WM is that it was intended to be used in circumstances where it might expect to get a lot of inadvertent hammering - locks and shoals for example and to be reasonably indestructible in those situations.If I was not constrained by the 7ft lock limitation I might be tempted to go the other way and see how a metal AS39 would work out.
                          Something mentioned in the original article which I think is incorrect is the temperature effects.Narrowboat experience in the UK is that you can keep them tolerably warm in winter with a pot stove,or,if you want to be posh,a diesel heater of some sort,but that they can get a bit warm in the summer.Since OZ is reputed to be a bit warmer than the UK this might be something you would need to look at.
                          One thing PCB did not make clear in the article was how much INLAND sailing WM would be expected to do.I think that you can probably discount sailing on the narrow canals but it ought to be capable of sailing wherever sailing barges used to operate,ie Thames,Humber,Severn,Norfolk Broads and Holland.Now the Channel and North Sea coasts might be the home of the Dipping Lug but in practise it seems to have been mainly used in fishing boats,to which it is ideally suited.(Fast out and home,gear stows out of the way when working the nets,AND,the extra bodies needed to work the nets can also manage the sail and yard when tacking).Everybody else used about half the number of bodies(typically 2,or 2 + a lad if it was a very big barge)and a different rig,mostly Gaff.(Humber Keels used square rig and Thames barges used spritsails).So it will depend on how many people you want as crew,although,as PCB remarked somewhere else,you can always use the engine to tack
                          with.
                          cheers
                          andy airey

                          Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                        • ANDREW AIREY
                          One other form of rolling,potentially unpleasant,is when you re grounded out on a shoal or mudbank,and the tide comes up the estuary and rolls you over.This
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jul 3, 2008
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                            One other form of rolling,potentially unpleasant,is when you're grounded out on a shoal or mudbank,and the tide comes up the estuary and rolls you over.This was a known hazard on the Humber where it was common practise in barging days to go hell for leather down the Trent on the ebb,and then sit out on a convenient shoal down by Trent Falls,where the Trent joins the Ouse to make the Humber,and wait for the tide to turn.
                            cheers
                            andy airey

                            Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                          • Frank Bales
                            Hi all, I m coming out from under my rock to ask a question.  Is anyone building any of the larger Bolger designs like the AS39, or the State named boats
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jul 3, 2008
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                              Hi all, I'm coming out from under my rock to ask a question.  Is anyone building any of the larger Bolger designs like the AS39, or the State named boats (Tennessee, etc.), or even the Tahiti?  There's very little to be found on the Internet about any of the bigger bolger designs.  Why is that?  Wasn't there someone in Quebec building a steel AS39?  And what about the guy in Florida who was building the Tahiti?  It seems strange that someone like Phil Bolger is not found more on the Internet.  I'd sure like to know more about those boats from those that have built them.

                              Frank
                              Montgomery AL





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Peter Lenihan
                              ... anyone building any of the larger Bolger designs like the AS39, or the State named boats (Tennessee, etc.), or even the Tahiti?  There s very little to be
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jul 3, 2008
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                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Frank Bales <frank_bales@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi all, I'm coming out from under my rock to ask a question.  Is
                                anyone building any of the larger Bolger designs like the AS39, or
                                the State named boats (Tennessee, etc.), or even the Tahiti? 
                                There's very little to be found on the Internet about any of the
                                bigger bolger designs.  Why is that?  Wasn't there someone in Quebec
                                building a steel AS39?  And what about the guy in Florida who was
                                building the Tahiti?  It seems strange that someone like Phil Bolger
                                is not found more on the Internet.  I'd sure like to know more about
                                those boats from those that have built them.
                                >
                                > Frank
                                > Montgomery AL

                                Frank,

                                Cannot speak for the other designs but here are some pictures of the
                                AS-39 built in Quebec:

                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger7/files/Le%20Cabotin%20%28%20AS-
                                39%29/

                                in the files section of Bolger group7 under Le Cabotin.The owners
                                are planning to sail down the St.Lawrence this summer and winter
                                over in Newfoundland before crossing the Atlantic.

                                Sincerely,

                                Peter Lenihan
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Harry James
                                There are quite a few pictures of large projects in the files and photos of the seven Bolger groups. No order rhyme or reason, you just have to look. Peter
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jul 3, 2008
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                                  There are quite a few pictures of large projects in the files and photos
                                  of the seven Bolger groups. No order rhyme or reason, you just have to
                                  look.

                                  Peter Lenihan posted pictures on Le Cabotin an AS 39.

                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger7/files/Le%20Cabotin%20%28%20AS-39%29/

                                  There are pics of his Windermere, nearing completion in the files
                                  somewhere also. These are big boats requiring years of commitment, not
                                  too many have the dedication to complete such projects.

                                  Building the Double Eagle "Great Land"

                                  http://thegreatsea.homestead.com/

                                  HJ

                                  Frank Bales wrote:
                                  > Hi all, I'm coming out from under my rock to ask a question. Is anyone building any of the larger Bolger designs like the AS39, or the State named boats (Tennessee, etc.), or even the Tahiti? There's very little to be found on the Internet about any of the bigger bolger designs. Why is that? Wasn't there someone in Quebec building a steel AS39? And what about the guy in Florida who was building the Tahiti? It seems strange that someone like Phil Bolger is not found more on the Internet. I'd sure like to know more about those boats from those that have built them.
                                  >
                                  > Frank
                                  > Montgomery AL
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Bolger rules!!!
                                  > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
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                                  > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
                                  > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                                  > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
                                  > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
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                                  >
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                                  >
                                • graeme19121984
                                  ... grounded out on a shoal or mudbank,and the tide comes up the estuary and rolls you over. How s that happen Andy? Is that due to a tidal bore knocking you
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY <andyairey@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > One other form of rolling,potentially unpleasant,is when you're
                                    grounded out on a shoal or mudbank,and the tide comes up the estuary
                                    and rolls you over.

                                    How's that happen Andy?

                                    Is that due to a tidal bore knocking you over, or due to being grounded
                                    on a bank at too large an angle of heel?

                                    Graeme
                                  • graeme19121984
                                    ... Yep, steel is tough, and as the saying goes: nothing seals like steel. Easy to repair - and supplies and know-how almost anywhere. The maintenance must
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, ANDREW AIREY <andyairey@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > The point about using steel for WM ...

                                      Yep, steel is tough, and as the saying goes: "nothing seals like
                                      steel." Easy to repair - and supplies and know-how almost anywhere.
                                      The maintenance must be attended to, as with anything else I suppose.

                                      Yes, I wondered about the heating: on how the internal cabin volume
                                      is not large, and in temperate waters it would seem a small heater
                                      would do. Then again I believe in winter Bolger always had a heater
                                      going in his Resolution clad from higher R value material.

                                      Where it's warm and sunny a thin walled steel tank is going to get
                                      quite hot inside. Definately white topsides/deck (awning too?), but
                                      also maybe insulation under the deck. More attention to ventilation
                                      than shown in the article could help too, with a large cowl rigged to
                                      catch any breeze when moored and direct it below decks etc. Still,
                                      there are plenty of professional and owner built steel yachts about
                                      so they can be habitable. I think PB&F wished to avoid the
                                      complication, and expense, of the various methods of
                                      protecting/insulating the steel.

                                      Do you think the Weston Martyr building procedure is designed
                                      similarly, or adaptable to that of the 2nd stage of the Jesse Cooper
                                      build? If the mostly erected hull is upright on the ground with large
                                      openings in the sides for easy access, then the internal fit out
                                      would be less of a chore. There's plenty of incomplete hulls about,
                                      and it seems the slowness (& expense) of fitting out could be a major
                                      reason why projects are abandoned.

                                      I reckon this dipping lug would be mostly tacked with help from the
                                      motor. I also think it would mostly be shortened too. On small
                                      expanses of water I wonder if the two sharpie sails alone might not
                                      provide sufficient propulsion in a breeze? They certainly should tack
                                      easily enough, and help manouvere the boat.

                                      Could the mainsail have a boom fitted for sailing more confined
                                      waters; maybe turn it into an optional loose-footed balanced lug?

                                      I think a steel AS39 would be a goer. And maybe not too long now
                                      before plywood runs out anyway - forest clearance, climate change,
                                      and bio-fuels etc.. - peak ply?

                                      Graeme
                                    • Sam Glasscock
                                      Frank, I have built the Topaz, which is a small 31 footer, and will be building a Tennessee this winter.  These are long boats but not large displacement,
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                        Frank, I have built the Topaz, which is a small 31 footer, and will be building a Tennessee this winter.  These are long boats but not large displacement, require small effort, unlike some of Bolgers large-dispacement designs.  Sam

                                        --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Frank Bales <frank_bales@...> wrote:

                                        From: Frank Bales <frank_bales@...>
                                        Subject: [bolger] Large Bolger Designs?
                                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 11:39 PM






                                        Hi all, I'm coming out from under my rock to ask a question.  Is anyone building any of the larger Bolger designs like the AS39, or the State named boats (Tennessee, etc.), or even the Tahiti?  There's very little to be found on the Internet about any of the bigger bolger designs.  Why is that?  Wasn't there someone in Quebec building a steel AS39?  And what about the guy in Florida who was building the Tahiti?  It seems strange that someone like Phil Bolger is not found more on the Internet.  I'd sure like to know more about those boats from those that have built them.

                                        Frank
                                        Montgomery AL

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Douglas Pollard
                                        Speaking of Larger Bolger boats, I have talked about Wolftrap in my blog. She was featured in Bolgers book different boats back in the 1980 s. My blog
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jul 4, 2008
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                                          Speaking of Larger Bolger boats, I have talked about Wolftrap in my
                                          blog. She was featured in Bolgers book different boats back in the
                                          1980's. My blog goes through building, dealing with Bolger, the
                                          decision to build and sailing Wolftrap to the Bahamas. If you are
                                          interested go to my blog Sailboats Fair and Fine and read . Start of the
                                          bottom of the blog archive on the left side at the bottom click on
                                          2006(9) and that will start you at the beginning of the story. The
                                          story is not finshed and I will start writing to it again in the fall. I
                                          am also making a video of the whole trip. The first week of the video is
                                          finshed so there is a long way to go to cover a year of cruising
                                          aboard Wolftrap.
                                          Doug
                                          http://dundalkfarms.blogspot.com/


                                          Sam Glasscock wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Frank, I have built the Topaz, which is a small 31 footer, and will be
                                          > building a Tennessee this winter. These are long boats but not large
                                          > displacement, require small effort, unlike some of Bolgers
                                          > large-dispacement designs. Sam
                                          >
                                          > --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Frank Bales <frank_bales@...
                                          > <mailto:frank_bales%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > From: Frank Bales <frank_bales@... <mailto:frank_bales%40yahoo.com>>
                                          > Subject: [bolger] Large Bolger Designs?
                                          > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com <mailto:bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 11:39 PM
                                          >
                                          > Hi all, I'm coming out from under my rock to ask a question. Is
                                          > anyone building any of the larger Bolger designs like the AS39, or the
                                          > State named boats (Tennessee, etc.), or even the Tahiti? There's very
                                          > little to be found on the Internet about any of the bigger bolger
                                          > designs. Why is that? Wasn't there someone in Quebec building a
                                          > steel AS39? And what about the guy in Florida who was building the
                                          > Tahiti? It seems strange that someone like Phil Bolger is not found
                                          > more on the Internet. I'd sure like to know more about those boats
                                          > from those that have built them.
                                          >
                                          > Frank
                                          > Montgomery AL
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Col
                                          I ve uploaded some pictures of a very well made AS29 (I think) into the photos section under Gecko. I couldn t find any reference to this boat on a search of
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jul 6, 2008
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                                            I've uploaded some pictures of a very well made AS29 (I think) into
                                            the photos section under Gecko. I couldn't find any reference to
                                            this boat on a search of the group.
                                            Cheers,
                                            Col

                                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Frank Bales <frank_bales@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi all, I'm coming out from under my rock to ask a question.  Is
                                            anyone building any of the larger Bolger designs like the AS39, or
                                            the State named boats (Tennessee, etc.), or even the Tahiti? 
                                            There's very little to be found on the Internet about any of the
                                            bigger bolger designs.  Why is that?  Wasn't there someone in Quebec
                                            building a steel AS39?  And what about the guy in Florida who was
                                            building the Tahiti?  It seems strange that someone like Phil Bolger
                                            is not found more on the Internet.  I'd sure like to know more about
                                            those boats from those that have built them.
                                            >
                                            > Frank
                                            > Montgomery AL
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                          • ANDREW AIREY
                                            I suppose it could be either.The Humber has a lot of mudbanks and shoals and the Trent has a small tidal bore - the Aegir - which,although smaller than the
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jul 6, 2008
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                                              I suppose it could be either.The Humber has a lot of mudbanks and shoals and the Trent has a small tidal bore - the Aegir - which,although smaller than the better known Severn bore,could still make life interesting.I went down the Trent from Keadby on a 70ft narrowboat that my friend Neil was moving to Rotherham a few years ago.You can't get a 70ft boat from Keadby to Rotherham on the canal because when they upgraded the Sheffield and South Yorkshire system a few years ago to take 750ton Euroships they concentrated on The New Junction cut down to Goole docks and left one of the locks at Thorne on the original line to Keadby at the old length of about 60ft.Neil booked a pilot and we dropped down to Trent Falls on the ebb with the engine on tickover,motored across the Humber and tied up at a wharf to wait for the tide to turn and then went up to Goole on the flood. Interesting day
                                              cheers
                                              andy airey

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                                            • ANDREW AIREY
                                              Hi Graeme Having had my say about the various rigs I turned up an old photo on ebay this morning (320268722719) showing a couple of barges at Putney both
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jul 6, 2008
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                                                Hi Graeme

                                                Having had my say about the various rigs I turned up an old photo on ebay this morning (320268722719) showing a couple of barges at Putney both apparently fitted with dipping lugsails.Since getting upstream to Putney would involve shooting several bridges this may be what was known as bridge rig and was probably easier to drop than the spritsails normally used,although these were arranged so that the mast could be lowered if necessary.I think that the usual procedure later on for those was to drop the mast and then get a tow upriver,although if they were only going as far as the pool of london,just beyond Tower bridge,then that would be opened for them - I was stuck in traffic on the southern approach to the bridge a few months back waiting for a sailing barge to clear the bridge.

                                                Usual procedure with narrowboats seems to be to build them from the bottom up using 10mm flat plate cut about 1cm oversize so that all the welding is downwards - similar to Lions Paw.A friend who used to build them said that he could knock out a shell in about 3 weeks with a bit of labouring assistance,and WM is probably a simpler proposition once you've sorted out how to put the rocker in the base.The expense of fitting out a hull is going to be proportionate to the size though so a cheap hull,although a welcome saving,doesn't necessarily mean that the rest of the boat will be cheap.It sounds as if a lot of people who were building ferrocement boats a few years back hadn't quite grasped that.

                                                I think that if the dipping lug wasn't too suitable for river work I'd be inclined to rerig simply with a squaresail as in the Humber Keels.It all depends how the boat would be used.They can be fairly closewinded - see the sites dealing with the preserved example - and if you are not in a particular hurry to get anywhere then you can wait for a wind anyway.Thames barges mounted a small spritsail on the rudder to help with the steering after the barges started increasing in size and length a couple of hundred years ago
                                                cheers
                                                andy airey
                                                PS I have a legal set of plans for the AS39 that I'm not sure that I'm going to use but might be interested in doing a swop for a set of 'Colonel Hasler' plans

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                                              • c o'donnell
                                                It s very hard to say from the photo s size but I think they re standing lugs (can t see if there s a boom or not) since typically dipping lugs did not bring
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jul 6, 2008
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                                                  It's very hard to say from the photo's size but I think they're
                                                  standing lugs (can't see if there's a boom or not) since typically
                                                  dipping lugs did not bring the tack to the base of the mast. Appear
                                                  to be brailed standing lugs aft, my eyes ain't good enough to say if
                                                  they are on the rudder to aid tacking or not.

                                                  These may be canalboats as opposed to the Thames barges that did
                                                  coastal work? They are very much smaller.


                                                  On Jul 6, 2008, at 12:40 PM, ANDREW AIREY wrote:

                                                  > Hi Graeme
                                                  >
                                                  > Having had my say about the various rigs I turned up an old photo
                                                  > on ebay this morning (320268722719) showing a couple of barges at
                                                  > Putney both apparently fitted with dipping lugsails.Since getting
                                                  > upstream to Putney would involve shooting several bridges this may
                                                  > be what was known as bridge rig and was probably easier to drop
                                                  > than the spritsails normally used,although these were arranged so
                                                  > that the mast could be lowered if necessary.I think that the usual
                                                  > procedure later on for those was to drop the mast and then get a
                                                  > tow upriver,although if they were only going as far as the pool of
                                                  > london,just beyond Tower bridge,then that would be opened for them
                                                  > - I was stuck in traffic on the southern approach to the bridge a
                                                  > few months back waiting for a sailing barge to clear the bridge.
                                                  >
                                                  > Usual procedure with narrowboats seems to be to build them from the
                                                  > bottom up using 10mm flat plate cut about 1cm oversize so that all
                                                  > the welding is downwards - similar to Lions Paw.A friend who used
                                                  > to build them said that he could knock out a shell in about 3 weeks
                                                  > with a bit of labouring assistance,and WM is probably a simpler
                                                  > proposition once you've sorted out how to put the rocker in the
                                                  > base.The expense of fitting out a hull is going to be proportionate
                                                  > to the size though so a cheap hull,although a welcome
                                                  > saving,doesn't necessarily mean that the rest of the boat will be
                                                  > cheap.It sounds as if a lot of people who were building ferrocement
                                                  > boats a few years back hadn't quite grasped that.
                                                  >
                                                  > I think that if the dipping lug wasn't too suitable for river work
                                                  > I'd be inclined to rerig simply with a squaresail as in the Humber
                                                  > Keels.It all depends how the boat would be used.They can be fairly
                                                  > closewinded - see the sites dealing with the preserved example -
                                                  > and if you are not in a particular hurry to get anywhere then you
                                                  > can wait for a wind anyway.Thames barges mounted a small spritsail
                                                  > on the rudder to help with the steering after the barges started
                                                  > increasing in size and length a couple of hundred years ago
                                                  > cheers
                                                  > andy airey
                                                  > PS I have a legal set of plans for the AS39 that I'm not sure that
                                                  > I'm going to use but might be interested in doing a swop for a set
                                                  > of 'Colonel Hasler' plans
                                                  >
                                                  > Send instant messages to your online friends http://
                                                  > uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                                                  >
                                                  >



                                                  === craig o'donnell
                                                  dadadata@...
                                                  Box 232 Betterton Md 21610





                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • ANDREW AIREY
                                                  Should have done more research.Frank Carr in his book on sailing barges says that bridge sails were a species of small square headed lugsail, although the
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Jul 7, 2008
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                                                    Should have done more research.Frank Carr in his book on sailing barges says that 'bridge sails' were a species of small square headed lugsail, although the normal mizzen and,possibly,a small foresail might also be used.There is a picture of a pair of barges further downriver,almost identical to the ones in the ebay photo,on p118 in the 1989 edition of his book.In which case both will be barges,rather than narrowboats,and the nearer one will be one of the old 'swimheads'.Thames barges were built in great numbers and all lengths from about 40ft upwards,originally as swimheads(think lighter or very large Tortoise)then,after about 1850, increasingly with the pointed bow and straight stem of the modern barge. The Thames barge races demonstrated that the new style was faster and must have helped to popularise it,but the old swimheads were still competing in the 1890's and the last one was still trading into the 1930's carrying 'gas water' up round the coast
                                                    of East Anglia.(Gas water or coal tar is the liquid distillate from the old gas coking plants).The others had probably finished up as lighters.The Port of London Authority comissioned a series of photos of the Thames in 1937 and the swimhead lighters shown in those have some shape to them,as if they had been sailing craft at one time,rather than the more angular form of the modern steel swimheads.The depression of the 1930's probably eliminated most of the smaller barges.
                                                    cheers
                                                    andy airey

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                                                  • graeme19121984
                                                    Col, That Gecko looks a really sweet boat, thanks for the pics. Where is it? NSW? http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/browse/282e Graeme
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Jul 9, 2008
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                                                      Col,

                                                      That Gecko looks a really sweet boat, thanks for the pics. Where is it?
                                                      NSW?
                                                      http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/photos/browse/282e

                                                      Graeme

                                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Col" <colmooney@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > I've uploaded some pictures of a very well made AS29 (I think) into
                                                      > the photos section under Gecko. I couldn't find any reference to
                                                      > this boat on a search of the group.
                                                      > Cheers,
                                                      > Col
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