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Re: [bolger] Aluminium masts

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  • Richard Spelling
    I m considering the same mod for Entropy. Where did you get your Sch 40 3-1/2 at? Is it tapered at all? (not really that important) How long was your mast,
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 1, 2000
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      I'm considering the same mod for Entropy.

      Where did you get your Sch 40 3-1/2" at?
      Is it tapered at all? (not really that important)
      How long was your mast, and how much does it weigh?
      How much did it cost?


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "edward haile" <ewhaile@...>
      To: <bolger@egroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 3:51 PM
      Subject: Re: [bolger] Aluminium masts


      > Daniel,
      >
      > I chucked my old Doug fir mast on my Martha Jane for Schedule 40 aluminum.
      I
      > am very pleased with the result. It is a substantial weight-saving aloft,
      > hence a vast improvement in stability and performance. In yr case, the
      cost
      > savings should also be big. My spar diam is 3-1/2" (89mm), but you could
      go
      > much smaller, perhaps 2 or 2-1/2". Sch 40 is high-temper 6061, harder than
      > flagpoles.
      >
      > ED HAILE
      >
      >
      > >From: <daniel.curnutte@...>
      > >Reply-To: bolger@egroups.com
      > >To: bolger@egroups.com
      > >Subject: [bolger] Aluminium masts
      > >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:06:29 +0000
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >My source for Douglas Fir fell through... I have checked with local
      > >professional
      > >boat builders who confirm that they use Douglas Fir in the UK but because
      > >we
      > >have to import it from USA it is quite to very expensive. Best quote
      US$340
      > >for
      > >enough wood for masts and spars.
      > >I have started trying to find aluminium tube of the right length as an
      > >alternative for the masts leaving just the sprits to form out of wood.
      > >Has anybody out there tried an aluminium mast on a Bolger boat or even a
      > >Micro?
      > >What diameter should I use? What gauge (wall thickness) should I use? I
      am
      > >going
      > >for an un-tapered pole for the sake of cost.
      > >The spec I have given the supplier (awaiting price) is:
      > >Main - 76mm Diameter, 3.2mm gauge, 7m length
      > >Mizzen - 64mm diameter, 3.2mm gauge, 5m length
      > >
      > >Regards
      > >Daniel
      > >
      > >
      >
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    • GHC
      I ordered two tapered flag poles from a local flag shop for my light scooner. I believe they were 16 footers, but if you needed them fatter, you could order
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 1, 2000
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        I ordered two tapered flag poles from a local flag shop for my light
        scooner. I believe they were 16 footers, but if you needed them fatter,
        you could order 20's and cut the tips off - etc. About $200 each.

        Gregg Carlson
        http://www.carlsondesign.com/lscooner.html

        At 03:59 PM 7/1/2000 -0500, you wrote:
        >I'm considering the same mod for Entropy.
        >
        >Where did you get your Sch 40 3-1/2" at?
        >Is it tapered at all? (not really that important)
        >How long was your mast, and how much does it weigh?
        >How much did it cost?
        >
        >
        >----- Original Message -----
        >From: "edward haile" <ewhaile@...>
        >To: <bolger@egroups.com>
        >Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 3:51 PM
        >Subject: Re: [bolger] Aluminium masts
        >
        >
        >> Daniel,
        >>
        >> I chucked my old Doug fir mast on my Martha Jane for Schedule 40 aluminum.
        >I
        >> am very pleased with the result. It is a substantial weight-saving aloft,
        >> hence a vast improvement in stability and performance. In yr case, the
        >cost
        >> savings should also be big. My spar diam is 3-1/2" (89mm), but you could
        >go
        >> much smaller, perhaps 2 or 2-1/2". Sch 40 is high-temper 6061, harder than
        >> flagpoles.
        >>
        >> ED HAILE
        >>
        >>
        >> >From: <daniel.curnutte@...>
        >> >Reply-To: bolger@egroups.com
        >> >To: bolger@egroups.com
        >> >Subject: [bolger] Aluminium masts
        >> >Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:06:29 +0000
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >My source for Douglas Fir fell through... I have checked with local
        >> >professional
        >> >boat builders who confirm that they use Douglas Fir in the UK but because
        >> >we
        >> >have to import it from USA it is quite to very expensive. Best quote
        >US$340
        >> >for
        >> >enough wood for masts and spars.
        >> >I have started trying to find aluminium tube of the right length as an
        >> >alternative for the masts leaving just the sprits to form out of wood.
        >> >Has anybody out there tried an aluminium mast on a Bolger boat or even a
        >> >Micro?
        >> >What diameter should I use? What gauge (wall thickness) should I use? I
        >am
        >> >going
        >> >for an un-tapered pole for the sake of cost.
        >> >The spec I have given the supplier (awaiting price) is:
        >> >Main - 76mm Diameter, 3.2mm gauge, 7m length
        >> >Mizzen - 64mm diameter, 3.2mm gauge, 5m length
        >> >
        >> >Regards
        >> >Daniel
        >> >
        >> >
        >>
        >> ________________________________________________________________________
        >> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
        >>
        >>
        >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >> Explore the popular High-End Room -
        >> Go To Where The Smart People Shop-uBid.com
        >> http://click.egroups.com/1/6141/13/_/3457/_/962484707/
        >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >>
        >> Bolger rules!!!
        >> - no cursing
        >> - stay on topic
        >> - use punctuation
        >> - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
        >> - add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
        >>
        >
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      • Richard Spelling
        Gregg, Ed says: Sch 40 is high-temper 6061, harder than flagpoles. , do you think that s relevant? I would use wood for the gaff & boom jaws, but wear would
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 1, 2000
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          Gregg, Ed says: "Sch 40 is high-temper 6061, harder than flagpoles.", do you
          think that's relevant? I would use wood for the gaff & boom jaws, but wear
          would be still be an issue.

          Is the load on a mast that much more than the load on a flagpole? You said
          you wrote a program that determined that wood was stiffer, but that the
          aluminum flagpole masts on your schooner (obligatoryBolger reference) were
          strong enough. Has this been born out in real world testing?

          When I looked at your masts, it seemed they were awfull thin, just how thick
          are they? 1/8inch, 14 gauge?

          On these tapered flagpoles, the walls on the top are thicker than on the
          bottom, probably because they take a tube and role the taper in. This would
          seem to me to indicate the weight on the top of the tapered mast is the same
          as the weight of the untapered pipe. With this in mind, would it be cheaper
          to just buy aluminum tubing of the appropriate diameter and not worry about
          the taper?

          Wonder if your local flagpole company would sell a strait tube?

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "GHC" <ghartc@...>
          To: <bolger@egroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 4:48 PM
          Subject: Re: [bolger] Aluminium masts


          > I ordered two tapered flag poles from a local flag shop for my light
          > scooner. I believe they were 16 footers, but if you needed them fatter,
          > you could order 20's and cut the tips off - etc. About $200 each.
          >
          > Gregg Carlson
          > http://www.carlsondesign.com/lscooner.html
          >
          > At 03:59 PM 7/1/2000 -0500, you wrote:
          > >I'm considering the same mod for Entropy.
          > >
          > >> much smaller, perhaps 2 or 2-1/2". Sch 40 is high-temper 6061, harder
          than
          > >> flagpoles.
          > >>
          > >> ED HAILE
        • GHC
          Oh yeah, the higher temper the higher strength. 6061-T0 is 18,000 psi yield strength and -T6 is 45,000. Actually 2024 is better stuff 2024-T0 is 27,000 psi
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 1, 2000
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            Oh yeah, the higher temper the higher strength. 6061-T0 is 18,000 psi
            yield strength and -T6 is 45,000. Actually 2024 is better stuff 2024-T0 is
            27,000 psi and -T6 is 69,000 psi. You can use the mast programs on the
            carlsondesign.com website and figure the psi load under various
            configurations and estimate your safety factor. By the way, I find
            strengths of Douglas Fir at about 14,000 max. most other woods a little less

            T6 is a common temper, but is, of course brittle. So, they will form (e.g.
            tapering) at the lowest (annealed) temper because it's easiest on the the
            tooling and energy budget. Then, they will temper. I think my flagpoles
            were tempered 2024.

            My poles are pretty thick - about .125 wall, thicker at the top. The loads
            on poles are really similar to masts - they are rated in mph windload vs.
            flag size. You might guess they go up to about 100 or 120 mph, so, all in
            all, it's a roughly similar solution to a similar problem. In other words,
            if you just traded a (free-standing) mast with an engineered flagpole of
            similar length, you are not going to be far off.

            My light schooner masts were wooden, 3.5" diameter. The 16' flagpoles I
            wanted to use were either 3" or 2-7/8" O.D. If you play with the programs,
            you'll see the wooden mast is a just little stronger, or that it has a
            larger factor of safety. However, you have got to admit that aluminum is a
            lot more uniform material than knotty old 2x4's, so I considered it a wash.

            Plus, I was also willing to take the chance of buckling a $200 pole. In
            practice, it has worked great in all kind of wind, and yes, you can see
            them bend a little.

            Of course, two things to consider - give the tubing some protection around
            the mast partners, because it wants to buckle there. And, don't drill any
            holes near the partners that will start a crack. In truth, the pole mast
            with a little heliarcing might be ideal.

            I thought about a straight tube with a 4' turned wood taper on top, but
            finding precision Al. tubing is harder than finding flagpoles. And, al.
            conduit is worthless.

            GHC




            At 05:20 PM 7/1/2000 -0500, you wrote:
            >Gregg, Ed says: "Sch 40 is high-temper 6061, harder than flagpoles.", do you
            >think that's relevant? I would use wood for the gaff & boom jaws, but wear
            >would be still be an issue.
            >
            >Is the load on a mast that much more than the load on a flagpole? You said
            >you wrote a program that determined that wood was stiffer, but that the
            >aluminum flagpole masts on your schooner (obligatoryBolger reference) were
            >strong enough. Has this been born out in real world testing?
            >
            >When I looked at your masts, it seemed they were awfull thin, just how thick
            >are they? 1/8inch, 14 gauge?
            >
            >On these tapered flagpoles, the walls on the top are thicker than on the
            >bottom, probably because they take a tube and role the taper in. This would
            >seem to me to indicate the weight on the top of the tapered mast is the same
            >as the weight of the untapered pipe. With this in mind, would it be cheaper
            >to just buy aluminum tubing of the appropriate diameter and not worry about
            >the taper?
            >
            >Wonder if your local flagpole company would sell a strait tube?
            >
            >----- Original Message -----
            >From: "GHC" <ghartc@...>
            >To: <bolger@egroups.com>
            >Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 4:48 PM
            >Subject: Re: [bolger] Aluminium masts
            >
            >
            >> I ordered two tapered flag poles from a local flag shop for my light
            >> scooner. I believe they were 16 footers, but if you needed them fatter,
            >> you could order 20's and cut the tips off - etc. About $200 each.
            >>
            >> Gregg Carlson
            >> http://www.carlsondesign.com/lscooner.html
            >>
            >> At 03:59 PM 7/1/2000 -0500, you wrote:
            >> >I'm considering the same mod for Entropy.
            >> >
            >> >> much smaller, perhaps 2 or 2-1/2". Sch 40 is high-temper 6061, harder
            >than
            >> >> flagpoles.
            >> >>
            >> >> ED HAILE
            >
            >
            >
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          • Lincoln Ross
            ... Depends on what you mean by brittle. Of course if you do all sorts of forming it will crack, but I think in use it probably won t. I have a 25 year old
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 1, 2000
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              --- In bolger@egroups.com, GHC <ghartc@p...> wrote:
              > snip
              > T6 is a common temper, but is, of course brittle.
              Depends on what you mean by brittle. Of course if you do all sorts of
              forming it will crack, but I think in use it probably won't. I have a
              25 year old bicycle frame from 6061 T6 (tempered after welding) that
              has been crashed at least twice without damage (to the frame, I'm not
              talking about me or the wheels).

              I suspect you need to consider corrosion properties of different
              alloys. I recall that 2024 is not so great for this, and that there
              are specific marine alloys.
            • G Carlson
              You re right, brittle is overstated, 2024-T6 and 6061-T6 are good stuff. So, probably, are 6063 and 7075. I believe the flag poles are anodized, or available
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 1, 2000
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                You're right, "brittle" is overstated, 2024-T6 and 6061-T6 are good stuff.
                So, probably, are 6063 and 7075.

                I believe the flag poles are anodized, or available with. I think, in
                practice, you'll probably take what you can get - no choice at all on
                flagpole materials. In fact, the scope and properties across vendors were
                so identical there's probably a single manufacturer.

                I was really surprised actually by the scarcity and expense of precision
                tubing, and there's a fair amount of aerospace acitivity here (Tulsa, OK).

                Anyway, my spars have been excellent - light, hollow - less windage and
                weight aloft, but there's been little relative interest in doing it this
                way, for some reason. Oh well.

                As an aside, I am have been looking for a trapeze set to set off the
                scooner's main mast - should be fun.

                Gregg Carlson


                >--- In bolger@egroups.com, GHC <ghartc@p...> wrote:
                >> snip
                >> T6 is a common temper, but is, of course brittle.
                >Depends on what you mean by brittle. Of course if you do all sorts of
                >forming it will crack, but I think in use it probably won't. I have a
                >25 year old bicycle frame from 6061 T6 (tempered after welding) that
                >has been crashed at least twice without damage (to the frame, I'm not
                >talking about me or the wheels).
                >
                >I suspect you need to consider corrosion properties of different
                >alloys. I recall that 2024 is not so great for this, and that there
                >are specific marine alloys.
                >
                >
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                >- use punctuation
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              • G Carlson
                Can anyone part with this issue (26:40) covering Herreschoff s Rozinante? (There are other issues of similar interest including Red Head 123:58 124:6 114:32
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 1, 2000
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                  Can anyone part with this issue (26:40) covering Herreschoff's Rozinante?

                  (There are other issues of similar interest including "Red Head" 123:58
                  124:6 114:32 and 56:38)

                  Thanks, Gregg Carlson
                • chris
                  hi Guys.. Greg It is funny that you mention the aerospace Industry... I just got Three mast ( poles) myself from my brother in law that works at a large (
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 1, 2000
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                    hi Guys.. Greg It is funny that you mention the aerospace Industry... I
                    just got Three mast ( poles) myself from my brother in law that works at a
                    large ( multinational) aluminum extruder.. they supply aluminum tubing for
                    areospace and airline manufactures ... the tubes that I got were a mixture
                    of aluminum-titanium-magnesium (spelling?) they were seconds that were going
                    for scrap. they are 28 feet long- 3 1/2 inches in diameter- and .132 walls.
                    they were suppose to be .125, that is why they were heading for the scrap
                    pile... I paid 120 bucks for all three ( one dollar a pound) I sold one to
                    Dave Gray for "foolhardy" and am keeping the other two for my Light Schooner
                    ( when I get aroung to building it)
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "G Carlson" <ghartc@...>
                    To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                    Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 11:28 PM
                    Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: Aluminium masts


                    > You're right, "brittle" is overstated, 2024-T6 and 6061-T6 are good stuff.
                    > So, probably, are 6063 and 7075.
                    >
                    > I believe the flag poles are anodized, or available with. I think, in
                    > practice, you'll probably take what you can get - no choice at all on
                    > flagpole materials. In fact, the scope and properties across vendors were
                    > so identical there's probably a single manufacturer.
                    >
                    > I was really surprised actually by the scarcity and expense of precision
                    > tubing, and there's a fair amount of aerospace acitivity here (Tulsa, OK).
                    >
                    > Anyway, my spars have been excellent - light, hollow - less windage and
                    > weight aloft, but there's been little relative interest in doing it this
                    > way, for some reason. Oh well.
                    >
                    > As an aside, I am have been looking for a trapeze set to set off the
                    > scooner's main mast - should be fun.
                    >
                    > Gregg Carlson
                    >
                    >
                    > >--- In bolger@egroups.com, GHC <ghartc@p...> wrote:
                    > >> snip
                    > >> T6 is a common temper, but is, of course brittle.
                    > >Depends on what you mean by brittle. Of course if you do all sorts of
                    > >forming it will crack, but I think in use it probably won't. I have a
                    > >25 year old bicycle frame from 6061 T6 (tempered after welding) that
                    > >has been crashed at least twice without damage (to the frame, I'm not
                    > >talking about me or the wheels).
                    > >
                    > >I suspect you need to consider corrosion properties of different
                    > >alloys. I recall that 2024 is not so great for this, and that there
                    > >are specific marine alloys.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > >Lonely? Get Firetalk!
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                    > >- stay on topic
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                  • chris
                    month year????? ... From: G Carlson To: Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [bolger] Woodenboat
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jul 1, 2000
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                      month year?????

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "G Carlson" <ghartc@...>
                      To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                      Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 11:31 PM
                      Subject: Re: [bolger] Woodenboat No. 26:40


                      > Can anyone part with this issue (26:40) covering Herreschoff's Rozinante?
                      >
                      > (There are other issues of similar interest including "Red Head" 123:58
                      > 124:6 114:32 and 56:38)
                      >
                      > Thanks, Gregg Carlson
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Jim Goeckermann
                      Greg, Would a copy of that article do, or a loan of the magazine so that you can read something, or do you just want to have your own? Jim
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jul 1, 2000
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                        Greg,
                        Would a copy of that article do, or a loan of the magazine so that you can
                        read something, or do you just want to have your own?
                        Jim

                        G Carlson wrote:

                        > Can anyone part with this issue (26:40) covering Herreschoff's Rozinante?
                        >
                        > (There are other issues of similar interest including "Red Head" 123:58
                        > 124:6 114:32 and 56:38)
                        >
                        > Thanks, Gregg Carlson
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > Free, Unlimited Calls Anywhere!
                        > Visit Firetalk.com - click below.
                        > http://click.egroups.com/1/5479/13/_/3457/_/962512655/
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Bolger rules!!!
                        > - no cursing
                        > - stay on topic
                        > - use punctuation
                        > - add your comments at the TOP and SIGN your posts
                        > - add some content: send "thanks!" and "ditto!" posts off-list.
                      • Lincoln Ross
                        Just recalled re an extruder that we use at work. I won t tell you the name of his outfit because I don t know if he d appreciate the extra business just now.
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jul 2, 2000
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                          Just recalled re an extruder that we use at work. I won't tell you
                          the
                          name of his outfit because I don't know if he'd appreciate the extra
                          business just now. Try to find an extrusion place far from
                          electronics
                          firms. If I recall, extrusion dies don't cost very much these days, I
                          think less than $1k. I'll bet if 10 Micro builders got together you
                          could (if one of you was a mechanical engineering type order a die,
                          with the size correct and a bolt rope groove or (aluminum) track
                          integral, and have masts made up. Of course there would be no taper.
                          I
                          have a suspicion there is something wrong with this notion, but I
                          don't know what.

                          Red Zinger uses a flagpole mast these days.
                          snip
                        • Roger Dewhurst
                          I have calculated the euler load on various lengths of aluminium tube of different diameters. I have used a recent version of a Works for Windows spreadsheet.
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jul 2, 2000
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                            I have calculated the euler load on various lengths of aluminium tube of
                            different diameters. I have used a recent version of a Works for Windows
                            spreadsheet. Euler theory is commonly used to calculate the stress on end
                            loaded spars, which a stayed mast is.

                            R
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