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Re: [bolger] re:Ultralite Tortoise

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  • Bruce Hallman
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/507951929/ http://hallman.org/bolger/Tortoise/ImprovedTortoise.png I don t recall if I have pictures of it completed.
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
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    • Mark Albanese
      Thanks for these. I d found the flikr pix, but some good stuff is in a part of Hallman.org one can t just browse to. The Freeship model shows clearly just
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
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        Thanks for these. I'd found the flikr pix, but some good stuff is in
        a part of Hallman.org one can't just browse to. The Freeship model
        shows clearly just where you've put the deck curve.

        Looking for plywood yesterday, no worthwhile 1/8th inch found. The
        4mm occume weighing just 12# or so would serve but seems like
        overkill at $49 a sheet. On the other hand if Tortoise is such a good
        little boat, maybe that's the ticket.

        Also found some $10 box store luan with three more or less even plys
        and exterior glue that weighs just 20 pounds a sheet - will grab some
        of that today, whatever.

        Cheerz


        On Feb 1, 2008, at 6:43 AM, Bruce Hallman wrote:

        > http://www.flickr.com/photos/hallman/507951929/
        > http://hallman.org/bolger/Tortoise/ImprovedTortoise.png
        >
        > I don't recall if I have pictures of it completed.
        >
        >
        >
      • Bruce Hallman
        ... It is just a Tortoise, and I used the cheapo $9/sheet door skin at Home Depot. Sheathed both sides with 8oz cloth and epoxy, it seems plenty strong. The
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
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          On Feb 1, 2008 1:09 PM, Mark Albanese <marka@...> wrote:
          >
          > Looking for plywood yesterday, no worthwhile 1/8th inch found.


          It is just a Tortoise, and I used the cheapo $9/sheet door skin at Home Depot.
          Sheathed both sides with 8oz cloth and epoxy, it seems plenty strong.
          The whole build probably totaled 10 man hours, spread over 10 days.
        • Mark Albanese
          Hah! Went back to Lowes thinking hey, might as well grab 5 or 6 sheets. Couldn t find two. Curled, raw looking, truly enormous boats, and, worst, the
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
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            Hah! Went back to Lowes thinking 'hey, might as well grab 5 or 6
            sheets." Couldn't find two. Curled, raw looking, truly enormous
            boats, and, worst, the underside already suffering a lurid gray mold.
            To be rid of that you I've spent a long time bleaching the xxx out of
            it. If it's that way coming out of the store it won't last long in my
            neighborhood. I just don't want to mess with it.

            Thinking the occume... A gold plated Tortoise is an amusing idea. But
            maybe not so practical. I've also been figuring up the true
            dimensions of one of Gavin's _Little Bretons_. That's probably a
            better place to sink $49 a sheet.

            For a novice sailor, the Torti may be the better boat though.

            Yes, the 3 x 7 foot door skins at HD looked good. That's confirmed
            not exterior glue though, and I'm not inclined to glass it all. May
            as well go for the better sheets.
            With 8oz glass filled with epoxy, I'm somewhat surprised yours still
            feels any lighter to you than stock 1/4" sheets.

            BTW I love your rope handle setup. Proves again that genius rests in
            the obvious.

            Cheerz







            \
            On Feb 1, 2008, at 2:07 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:

            > On Feb 1, 2008 1:09 PM, Mark Albanese <marka@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> Looking for plywood yesterday, no worthwhile 1/8th inch found.
            >
            >
            > It is just a Tortoise, and I used the cheapo $9/sheet door skin at
            > Home Depot.
            > Sheathed both sides with 8oz cloth and epoxy, it seems plenty strong.
            > The whole build probably totaled 10 man hours, spread over 10 days.
            >
            >
            >
          • Mark Albanese
            Then again: If it were strong enough unglassed, maybe door skins would work with some of this. Looking like both sealer and finish coat, it s actually not that
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 1, 2008
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              Then again: If it were strong enough unglassed, maybe door skins
              would work with some of this. Looking like both sealer and finish
              coat, it's actually not that expensive.
              http://tinyurl.com/2mc2u7

              & green, green, green



              On Feb 1, 2008, at 2:07 PM, Bruce Hallman wrote:

              > On Feb 1, 2008 1:09 PM, Mark Albanese <marka@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Looking for plywood yesterday, no worthwhile 1/8th inch found.
              >
              >
              > It is just a Tortoise, and I used the cheapo $9/sheet door skin at
              > Home Depot.
              > Sheathed both sides with 8oz cloth and epoxy, it seems plenty strong.
              > The whole build probably totaled 10 man hours, spread over 10 days.
              >
              >
            • graeme19121984
              ... Organic soy? ;) or Amazon rainforest :( & GMO?? :+0! Graeme
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 2, 2008
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                > & green, green, green

                Organic soy? ;) or Amazon rainforest :( & GMO?? :+0!

                Graeme
              • eep_05
                hate to dispel your illusion but soy is evil and most organic is soaked in diesel by the time you get it, better to get local produce when it is in season at
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 2, 2008
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                  hate to dispel your illusion but soy is evil and most organic is
                  soaked in diesel by the time you get it, better to get local produce
                  when it is in season at least.

                  http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/

                  and you cant make a boat out of it either.

                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > > & green, green, green
                  >
                  > Organic soy? ;) or Amazon rainforest :( & GMO?? :+0!
                  >
                  > Graeme
                  >
                • Mark Albanese
                  Hah! I live on soybeans, breakfast lunch and dinner. On an input ratio of only 1:7 compared to dead flesh, while not terribly smug about it, I m happy with the
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 6, 2008
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                    Hah! I live on soybeans, breakfast lunch and dinner. On an input
                    ratio of only 1:7 compared to dead flesh, while not terribly smug
                    about it, I'm happy with the no GMO stuff. I'll plow through
                    soyonline, but sheesh, I gotta eat sompin'.

                    Was only thinking about _coating_ a boat with it...

                    Agree 100% about the diesel.

                    If more, let's go over to
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_coffee_lounge/
                    Mark


                    On Feb 2, 2008, at 9:00 PM, eep_05 wrote:

                    > hate to dispel your illusion but soy is evil and most organic is
                    > soaked in diesel by the time you get it, better to get local produce
                    > when it is in season at least.
                    >
                    > http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/
                    >
                    > and you cant make a boat out of it either.
                    >
                    > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
                    > wrote:
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>> & green, green, green
                    >>
                    >> Organic soy? ;) or Amazon rainforest :( & GMO?? :+0!
                    >>
                    >> Graeme
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Bolger rules!!!
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                    > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging
                    > dead horses
                    > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred'
                    > posts
                    > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
                    > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA,
                    > 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
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                    >
                  • Mark Albanese
                    At 20#/ sheet it s only ultralight compared to fir or BC pine, but I picked up some of this luan underlay at one of the local HDs today. Nicely made, living
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 9, 2008
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                      At 20#/ sheet it's only ultralight compared to fir or BC pine, but I
                      picked up some of this luan underlay at one of the local HDs today.
                      Nicely made, living sheets. Pretty flat. Three even plies. Minimal
                      voids. Smooth both sides, one's got little x's as cutting guides all
                      over. The young man in the lumber department couldn't say whether it
                      was exterior glue, but googled to here.
                      http://www.patriottimber.com/sureply.htm

                      It was a surprise that different HDs carry different stock.

                      $15 /sheet. China, of course.
                      This is about the best cheap luan I've ever seen.
                      Mark
                    • dnjost
                      Mark - Did you use the Sureply? While shopping for steel shelving at Lowes, in order to organize the workshop, I tripped across Type 1 glued Luan at $10 per
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 23, 2008
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                        Mark -
                        Did you use the Sureply? While shopping for steel shelving at Lowes,
                        in order to organize the workshop, I tripped across Type 1 glued Luan
                        at $10 per sheet. Very tempting...but, two bays down found tons of
                        1/4" Sureply at $20 per sheet. A quick scan of the Patriot Timber
                        website shows that this stuff should be pretty good for Instant Boats.
                        Will pick up a few sheets and bang together a June Bug to replace both
                        the Dialbo and Pointy Skiff.

                        Trout and bass season are rapidly approaching in the frosty Northeast
                        US, (despite the 8" of snow last night) and I don't want to miss out on
                        too much boating action. I can also picture a raid on Boston via a
                        float down the Charles ("Love that Dirty Water")

                        David Jost
                      • dnjost
                        Dear Group - please read my post on the boil test I did on Sureply. I would be better off with the $10 luan. While the faces and interior plys are made well,
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 24, 2008
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                          Dear Group -
                          please read my post on the boil test I did on Sureply. I would be
                          better off with the $10 luan. While the faces and interior plys are
                          made well, the glue is not suitable for long term exterior use.

                          sorry,
                          djost
                        • GarthAB
                          Hi David-- It looks like your ply just bent after boiling, but didn t delaminate. Is that right, or did the glue give out? Wouldn t any wood bend after an hour
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 25, 2008
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                            Hi David--

                            It looks like your ply just bent after boiling, but didn't delaminate.
                            Is that right, or did the glue give out? Wouldn't any wood bend after
                            an hour of boiling, like steam-bent oak frames?

                            Garth


                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Group -
                            > please read my post on the boil test I did on Sureply. I would be
                            > better off with the $10 luan. While the faces and interior plys are
                            > made well, the glue is not suitable for long term exterior use.
                            >
                            > sorry,
                            > djost
                            >
                          • Giuliano Girometta
                            When I performed the boiling test on the Radiata Pine as I stated last week when I was asking about information on Radiata Pine on boats, and on some BC yellow
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 25, 2008
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                              When I performed the boiling test on the Radiata Pine as I stated last week when I was asking about information on Radiata Pine on boats, and on some BC yellow pine, the Radiata ply was stiff the same as dry, while the BC was able to be slightly flexed if put into a wise and bent with a pair of large channel lock plyers, but not delaminating.
                              While on the pics from David Looks like the Play layers were delaminated.

                              Giuliano

                              GarthAB <garth@...> wrote:
                              Hi David--

                              It looks like your ply just bent after boiling, but didn't delaminate.
                              Is that right, or did the glue give out? Wouldn't any wood bend after
                              an hour of boiling, like steam-bent oak frames?

                              Garth

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Group -
                              > please read my post on the boil test I did on Sureply. I would be
                              > better off with the $10 luan. While the faces and interior plys are
                              > made well, the glue is not suitable for long term exterior use.
                              >
                              > sorry,
                              > djost
                              >






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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • dnjost
                              The ply did not bend as stated, the glue failed. When I attempted to simply pull the plys apart, the failure was not immediate, but after cooling for 10
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 26, 2008
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                                The ply did not bend as stated, the glue failed. When I attempted to
                                simply pull the plys apart, the failure was not immediate, but after
                                cooling for 10 minutes I applied a twist and simply opened it up like
                                an oreo cookie.

                                D. Jost
                              • dnjost
                                Garth - Interestingly enough, not all wood bends after heating. I tried steam bending white oak, red oak, ash, fir, and pine. Only the oaks and ash took the
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 26, 2008
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                                  Garth -

                                  Interestingly enough, not all wood bends after heating. I tried steam
                                  bending white oak, red oak, ash, fir, and pine. Only the oaks and ash
                                  took the process, with the others cracking under pressure. A simple
                                  drain pipe out of PVC, rags, and a double boiler with PVC hosing
                                  clamped on has been my method for small canoe parts. 1hour per inch of
                                  cross section. pretty easy and fun!

                                  The 1/2 " ACX I boiled for over an hour and could not flex it, twist
                                  it, or cause failure of any kinds. I am sure that after repeated
                                  boiling and cool cycles I could eventually get failure, but for a boat
                                  that I plan on running 10-15 years and kept under cover this should be
                                  fine.

                                  Happy building,
                                  David Jost
                                • Mark Albanese
                                  Supposing, David, we may have actually purchased different products, that yours was mislabled somehow, today I had a chance to boil my own Sureply (R). Tried a
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 27, 2008
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                                    Supposing, David, we may have actually purchased different products,
                                    that yours was mislabled somehow, today I had a chance to boil my own
                                    Sureply (R).

                                    Tried a couple of 2 x 4" pieces.

                                    After an hour and a bend with vicegrips, #1 came apart with fingers.

                                    Cooled awhile, #2 wasn't much better.

                                    Personally, this is my third cheap luan boat. I haven't found a batch
                                    of the stuff yet that actually would survive this test. One is sealed
                                    with deck stuff and paint; another just with epoxy. Both are useful
                                    in their limited way. They are both stored indoors.

                                    You hit the bullseye with the occume. The ACX is pretty grim stuff.



                                    These otherwise well made sheets are nicely uniform. But If a
                                    lightweight, smooth, voidless, truly waterproof, $15 sheet seems too
                                    good to be true, perhaps it is. Maybe Sureply is really just good
                                    pattern stuff. :)

                                    Cheerz, Mark





                                    On Feb 26, 2008, at 6:12 AM, dnjost wrote:
                                    >
                                    > The 1/2 " ACX I boiled for over an hour and could not flex it, twist
                                    > it, or cause failure of any kinds. I am sure that after repeated
                                    > boiling and cool cycles I could eventually get failure, but for a boat
                                    > that I plan on running 10-15 years and kept under cover this should be
                                    > fine.
                                    >
                                    > Happy building,
                                    > David Jost
                                    > "calling Maine Lumber tomorrow for a delivery of Okoume".
                                    >
                                  • dnjost
                                    I did not take a photo of it, but the ACX I boiled last week has had a week in the arid atmosphere of the artic freeze we are having in New England. The
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 1, 2008
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                                      I did not take a photo of it, but the ACX I boiled last week has had a
                                      week in the arid atmosphere of the artic freeze we are having in New
                                      England. The indoor low humidity dried that sucker out in record time
                                      leaving a very nicely checked piece of plywood. The glue is holding,
                                      but I can now see how easily the water will penetrate this ply.

                                      that explains why the skiff I built of ACX deteriorated the way it
                                      did. The rot could just get into the cracks and go crazy.

                                      thanks for your patience, I am being a tad oc as I want my next build
                                      to be terrific.

                                      David Jost
                                    • rick barnes
                                      Spend the money and get good marine plywood. First boat, sure, go cheap. After you have a bit of experience, and want to show your workmanship, use the good
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 2, 2008
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                                        Spend the money and get good marine plywood. First boat, sure, go cheap. After you have a bit of experience, and want to show your workmanship, use the good stuff. I used to build furniture out of pine. I've graduated to cherry and walnut. Same thing. OK, I still use pine for some stuff.

                                        Rick



                                        ----- Original Message ----
                                        From: dnjost <davidjost@...>
                                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Saturday, March 1, 2008 9:41:57 PM
                                        Subject: [bolger] Re:'Sureply' (R)ACX update

                                        I did not take a photo of it, but the ACX I boiled last week has had a
                                        week in the arid atmosphere of the artic freeze we are having in New
                                        England. The indoor low humidity dried that sucker out in record time
                                        leaving a very nicely checked piece of plywood. The glue is holding,
                                        but I can now see how easily the water will penetrate this ply.

                                        that explains why the skiff I built of ACX deteriorated the way it
                                        did. The rot could just get into the cracks and go crazy.

                                        thanks for your patience, I am being a tad oc as I want my next build
                                        to be terrific.

                                        David Jost





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                                      • marka97203
                                        Being ignorant whether water proof glue actually implies extra strength or not, soaked my Sureply and a piece of genuine marine fir a solid week in just plain
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Mar 6, 2008
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                                          Being ignorant whether water proof glue actually implies extra strength or not, soaked my
                                          Sureply and a piece of genuine marine fir a solid week in just plain water.

                                          Both are finally softening somewhat -but there's no appreciable difference between the two.

                                          This less strenuous test makes me feel better about using the stuff.
                                          Now to dry them...

                                          Mark



                                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "dnjost" <davidjost@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I did not take a photo of it, but the ACX I boiled last week has had a
                                          > week in the arid atmosphere of the artic freeze we are having in New
                                          > England.
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