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[bolger] DSF

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  • David Ryan
    Fellow Bolger Boat Builders -- I read Pippo s exposition on the micro with considerable interest. It s always fun to see what people who know what they are
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 25, 1999
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      Fellow Bolger Boat Builders --

      I read Pippo's exposition on the micro with considerable interest.
      It's always fun to see what people who know what they are doing think
      about when they do what they do (like design boats.)

      This might come under the "there's no such thing as a stupid
      question" catagory, but just what do those 4 DSF categories mean?
      What IS the difference between sheltered and inshore, offshore and
      ocean?

      I suppose it doesn't matter much, with enough stupidity and/or
      hubris, you can get your butt kicked on just about any body of water.
      But if people are taking measurements and making distinctions, I'd
      like to know what's going into the calculation.

      Yours in boat building,
      David Ryan
      Minister of Information and Culture
      Crumbling Empire Productions
      (212) 247-0296
    • bianco@asi.it
      David ... Thanks ... Hey, this is a bit involved, my English fails after two levels of nested loops... What does it mean, plainly? ... I imagine the difference
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 29, 1999
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        David

        > I read Pippo's exposition on the micro with considerable interest.

        Thanks

        > It's always fun to see what people who know what they are doing think
        > about when they do what they do (like design boats.)

        Hey, this is a bit involved, my English fails after two levels of
        nested loops... What does it mean, plainly?

        > This might come under the "there's no such thing as a stupid
        > question" catagory, but just what do those 4 DSF categories mean?
        > What IS the difference between sheltered and inshore, offshore and
        > ocean?

        I imagine the difference here is the size and strenght of the waves
        (fetch effects).

        > I suppose it doesn't matter much, with enough stupidity and/or
        > hubris, you can get your butt kicked on just about any body of water.
        > But if people are taking measurements and making distinctions, I'd
        > like to know what's going into the calculation.

        The method I applied is being developed in the framework of an ISO
        working group. As far as I know, it has not yet been finalized. I've
        tried to retrace the original document without success up to now. In
        any case, here are the parameters that go into the calculations (hope
        not to forget anything):

        Length out all
        Length at water level
        Maximum beam
        Beam at water level
        Canoe body draft
        Sail area
        Displacement
        Righting arm at 90 degrees of heel
        Metacentric heigth
        Stability range (draw the stability curve, compute the areas above and
        below the zero and compute the ratio between the two)

        Then you compute some 7 parameters with a few formulas, and finally you
        get your DSF. I think the method gives meaningful results.

        Best, Pippo
      • Samson family
        Dear Pippo, I know you ve done a detailed analysis of Chebacco s characteristics. Which category do you think she fits best? Bill -- bill.samson@tesco.net
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 29, 1999
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          Dear Pippo,

          I know you've done a detailed analysis of Chebacco's characteristics. Which
          category do you think she fits best?

          Bill
          -- bill.samson@...

          Chebacco News can be viewed on:
          http://members.xoom.com/billsamson

          -----Original Message-----
          From: bianco@... <bianco@...>
          To: bolger@... <bolger@...>
          Date: 29 October 1999 09:14
          Subject: [bolger] Re: DSF


          >David
          >
          >> I read Pippo's exposition on the micro with considerable interest.
          >
          >Thanks
          >
          >> It's always fun to see what people who know what they are doing think
          >> about when they do what they do (like design boats.)
          >
          >Hey, this is a bit involved, my English fails after two levels of
          >nested loops... What does it mean, plainly?
          >
          >> This might come under the "there's no such thing as a stupid
          >> question" catagory, but just what do those 4 DSF categories mean?
          >> What IS the difference between sheltered and inshore, offshore and
          >> ocean?
          >
          >I imagine the difference here is the size and strenght of the waves
          >(fetch effects).
          >
          >> I suppose it doesn't matter much, with enough stupidity and/or
          >> hubris, you can get your butt kicked on just about any body of water.
          >> But if people are taking measurements and making distinctions, I'd
          >> like to know what's going into the calculation.
          >
          >The method I applied is being developed in the framework of an ISO
          >working group. As far as I know, it has not yet been finalized. I've
          >tried to retrace the original document without success up to now. In
          >any case, here are the parameters that go into the calculations (hope
          >not to forget anything):
          >
          >Length out all
          >Length at water level
          >Maximum beam
          >Beam at water level
          >Canoe body draft
          >Sail area
          >Displacement
          >Righting arm at 90 degrees of heel
          >Metacentric heigth
          >Stability range (draw the stability curve, compute the areas above and
          >below the zero and compute the ratio between the two)
          >
          >Then you compute some 7 parameters with a few formulas, and finally you
          >get your DSF. I think the method gives meaningful results.
          >
          >Best, Pippo
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >Java or juggling?. Everybody learns something at Learn2.com. Where
          >you'll find thousands of free 2torials, affordable online courses, and
          >useful tips for everyday life. http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/964
          >
          >
          >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
          >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco
          Dear Bill - it s right on the border between inshore and sheltered, depending on how high the gravity center is w.r.t. to the waterline. I estimate that, given
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 30, 1999
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            Dear Bill - it's right on the border between inshore and sheltered,
            depending on how high the gravity center is w.r.t. to the waterline. I
            estimate that, given the shape of the Chebacco, the DSF is a bit
            underestimated for the boat.
            Best, Pippo

            Samson family ha scritto:
            >
            > Dear Pippo,
            >
            > I know you've done a detailed analysis of Chebacco's characteristics. Which
            > category do you think she fits best?
            >
            > Bill
            > -- bill.samson@...
            >
            > Chebacco News can be viewed on:
            > http://members.xoom.com/billsamson
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: bianco@... <bianco@...>
            > To: bolger@... <bolger@...>
            > Date: 29 October 1999 09:14
            > Subject: [bolger] Re: DSF
            >
            > >David
            > >
            > >> I read Pippo's exposition on the micro with considerable interest.
            > >
            > >Thanks
            > >
            > >> It's always fun to see what people who know what they are doing think
            > >> about when they do what they do (like design boats.)
            > >
            > >Hey, this is a bit involved, my English fails after two levels of
            > >nested loops... What does it mean, plainly?
            > >
            > >> This might come under the "there's no such thing as a stupid
            > >> question" catagory, but just what do those 4 DSF categories mean?
            > >> What IS the difference between sheltered and inshore, offshore and
            > >> ocean?
            > >
            > >I imagine the difference here is the size and strenght of the waves
            > >(fetch effects).
            > >
            > >> I suppose it doesn't matter much, with enough stupidity and/or
            > >> hubris, you can get your butt kicked on just about any body of water.
            > >> But if people are taking measurements and making distinctions, I'd
            > >> like to know what's going into the calculation.
            > >
            > >The method I applied is being developed in the framework of an ISO
            > >working group. As far as I know, it has not yet been finalized. I've
            > >tried to retrace the original document without success up to now. In
            > >any case, here are the parameters that go into the calculations (hope
            > >not to forget anything):
            > >
            > >Length out all
            > >Length at water level
            > >Maximum beam
            > >Beam at water level
            > >Canoe body draft
            > >Sail area
            > >Displacement
            > >Righting arm at 90 degrees of heel
            > >Metacentric heigth
            > >Stability range (draw the stability curve, compute the areas above and
            > >below the zero and compute the ratio between the two)
            > >
            > >Then you compute some 7 parameters with a few formulas, and finally you
            > >get your DSF. I think the method gives meaningful results.
            > >
            > >Best, Pippo
            > >
            > >
            > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > >Java or juggling?. Everybody learns something at Learn2.com. Where
            > >you'll find thousands of free 2torials, affordable online courses, and
            > >useful tips for everyday life. http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/964
            > >
            > >
            > >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
            > >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > Learn2 Avoid Junk Mail. Learn2 Shop for Bargain Airfares. Learn2
            > Weatherize Your Home. Learn2 Speak Wine. Learn2 Get by in French.
            > Learn2 Negotiate a Raise. http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/965
            >
            > eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
            > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
          • Samson family
            Thanks, Pippo, I wasn t sure, but thought it might be something like that. Presumably a little ballast low down would help? Do you know how that compares
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 30, 1999
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              Thanks, Pippo,

              I wasn't sure, but thought it might be something like that. Presumably a
              little ballast low down would help? Do you know how that compares with a
              Drascombe Lugger, for example? The other interesting boat in this class is
              the Falmouth Bass Boat, which is supposed to be category C (Inshore?)

              Bill
              -- bill.samson@...

              Chebacco News can be viewed on:
              http://members.xoom.com/billsamson

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco <pippobianco@...>
              To: bolger@egroups.com <bolger@egroups.com>
              Date: 30 October 1999 10:23
              Subject: [bolger] Re: DSF


              >Dear Bill - it's right on the border between inshore and sheltered,
              >depending on how high the gravity center is w.r.t. to the waterline. I
              >estimate that, given the shape of the Chebacco, the DSF is a bit
              >underestimated for the boat.
              >Best, Pippo
              >
              >Samson family ha scritto:
              >>
              >> Dear Pippo,
              >>
              >> I know you've done a detailed analysis of Chebacco's characteristics.
              Which
              >> category do you think she fits best?
              >>
              >> Bill
              >> -- bill.samson@...
              >>
              >> Chebacco News can be viewed on:
              >> http://members.xoom.com/billsamson
              >>
              >> -----Original Message-----
              >> From: bianco@... <bianco@...>
              >> To: bolger@... <bolger@...>
              >> Date: 29 October 1999 09:14
              >> Subject: [bolger] Re: DSF
              >>
              >> >David
              >> >
              >> >> I read Pippo's exposition on the micro with considerable interest.
              >> >
              >> >Thanks
              >> >
              >> >> It's always fun to see what people who know what they are doing think
              >> >> about when they do what they do (like design boats.)
              >> >
              >> >Hey, this is a bit involved, my English fails after two levels of
              >> >nested loops... What does it mean, plainly?
              >> >
              >> >> This might come under the "there's no such thing as a stupid
              >> >> question" catagory, but just what do those 4 DSF categories mean?
              >> >> What IS the difference between sheltered and inshore, offshore and
              >> >> ocean?
              >> >
              >> >I imagine the difference here is the size and strenght of the waves
              >> >(fetch effects).
              >> >
              >> >> I suppose it doesn't matter much, with enough stupidity and/or
              >> >> hubris, you can get your butt kicked on just about any body of water.
              >> >> But if people are taking measurements and making distinctions, I'd
              >> >> like to know what's going into the calculation.
              >> >
              >> >The method I applied is being developed in the framework of an ISO
              >> >working group. As far as I know, it has not yet been finalized. I've
              >> >tried to retrace the original document without success up to now. In
              >> >any case, here are the parameters that go into the calculations (hope
              >> >not to forget anything):
              >> >
              >> >Length out all
              >> >Length at water level
              >> >Maximum beam
              >> >Beam at water level
              >> >Canoe body draft
              >> >Sail area
              >> >Displacement
              >> >Righting arm at 90 degrees of heel
              >> >Metacentric heigth
              >> >Stability range (draw the stability curve, compute the areas above and
              >> >below the zero and compute the ratio between the two)
              >> >
              >> >Then you compute some 7 parameters with a few formulas, and finally you
              >> >get your DSF. I think the method gives meaningful results.
              >> >
              >> >Best, Pippo
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >> >Java or juggling?. Everybody learns something at Learn2.com. Where
              >> >you'll find thousands of free 2torials, affordable online courses, and
              >> >useful tips for everyday life. http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/964
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
              >> >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >>
              >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >> Learn2 Avoid Junk Mail. Learn2 Shop for Bargain Airfares. Learn2
              >> Weatherize Your Home. Learn2 Speak Wine. Learn2 Get by in French.
              >> Learn2 Negotiate a Raise. http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/965
              >>
              >> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
              >> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
              >
              >------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >A shopper’s dream come true! Find practically anything on earth at eBay!
              >Come and browse the more than 2 million items up for bid at any time.
              >You never know what you might find at eBay!
              >http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1140
              >
              >
              >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
              >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco
              Hi Bill - According to the numbers, well, yes, some ballast would increase the dry displacement and lower the center of mass. My results say that the Chebacco
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 30, 1999
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                Hi Bill - According to the numbers, well, yes, some ballast would
                increase the dry displacement and lower the center of mass. My results
                say that the Chebacco is less than average in the following parameters:

                Displacement-lenght factor ( the boat is light w.r.t to its size)
                Beam-displacemnt factor (the beam is too wide)
                Self righting factor (the Chebacco has a very small righting moment at
                90 degrees of heel)
                Relative area factor (the range of stability is somehow low)

                On the other hand, the Chebacco is right on the average in the
                Stability speed loss ratio (should sail reasonably well in rough water),
                and better than average in the Sail area displacement beam lenght factor
                (good ability in carrying sail).

                Some ballast down below would stiffen the boat and increase the DSF, not
                dramatically though, provided that the overall dispacement remains the
                same. I don't think you can realistically increase the DSF to a value of
                more than 15.

                Best, Pippo

                Samson family ha scritto:
                >
                > Thanks, Pippo,
                >
                > I wasn't sure, but thought it might be something like that. Presumably a
                > little ballast low down would help? Do you know how that compares with a
                > Drascombe Lugger, for example? The other interesting boat in this class is
                > the Falmouth Bass Boat, which is supposed to be category C (Inshore?)
                >
                > Bill
                > -- bill.samson@...
                >
                > Chebacco News can be viewed on:
                > http://members.xoom.com/billsamson
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco <pippobianco@...>
                > To: bolger@egroups.com <bolger@egroups.com>
                > Date: 30 October 1999 10:23
                > Subject: [bolger] Re: DSF
                >
                > >Dear Bill - it's right on the border between inshore and sheltered,
                > >depending on how high the gravity center is w.r.t. to the waterline. I
                > >estimate that, given the shape of the Chebacco, the DSF is a bit
                > >underestimated for the boat.
                > >Best, Pippo
                > >
                > >Samson family ha scritto:
                > >>
                > >> Dear Pippo,
                > >>
                > >> I know you've done a detailed analysis of Chebacco's characteristics.
                > Which
                > >> category do you think she fits best?
                > >>
                > >> Bill
                > >> -- bill.samson@...
                > >>
                > >> Chebacco News can be viewed on:
                > >> http://members.xoom.com/billsamson
                > >>
                > >> -----Original Message-----
                > >> From: bianco@... <bianco@...>
                > >> To: bolger@... <bolger@...>
                > >> Date: 29 October 1999 09:14
                > >> Subject: [bolger] Re: DSF
                > >>
                > >> >David
                > >> >
                > >> >> I read Pippo's exposition on the micro with considerable interest.
                > >> >
                > >> >Thanks
                > >> >
                > >> >> It's always fun to see what people who know what they are doing think
                > >> >> about when they do what they do (like design boats.)
                > >> >
                > >> >Hey, this is a bit involved, my English fails after two levels of
                > >> >nested loops... What does it mean, plainly?
                > >> >
                > >> >> This might come under the "there's no such thing as a stupid
                > >> >> question" catagory, but just what do those 4 DSF categories mean?
                > >> >> What IS the difference between sheltered and inshore, offshore and
                > >> >> ocean?
                > >> >
                > >> >I imagine the difference here is the size and strenght of the waves
                > >> >(fetch effects).
                > >> >
                > >> >> I suppose it doesn't matter much, with enough stupidity and/or
                > >> >> hubris, you can get your butt kicked on just about any body of water.
                > >> >> But if people are taking measurements and making distinctions, I'd
                > >> >> like to know what's going into the calculation.
                > >> >
                > >> >The method I applied is being developed in the framework of an ISO
                > >> >working group. As far as I know, it has not yet been finalized. I've
                > >> >tried to retrace the original document without success up to now. In
                > >> >any case, here are the parameters that go into the calculations (hope
                > >> >not to forget anything):
                > >> >
                > >> >Length out all
                > >> >Length at water level
                > >> >Maximum beam
                > >> >Beam at water level
                > >> >Canoe body draft
                > >> >Sail area
                > >> >Displacement
                > >> >Righting arm at 90 degrees of heel
                > >> >Metacentric heigth
                > >> >Stability range (draw the stability curve, compute the areas above and
                > >> >below the zero and compute the ratio between the two)
                > >> >
                > >> >Then you compute some 7 parameters with a few formulas, and finally you
                > >> >get your DSF. I think the method gives meaningful results.
                > >> >
                > >> >Best, Pippo
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > >> >Java or juggling?. Everybody learns something at Learn2.com. Where
                > >> >you'll find thousands of free 2torials, affordable online courses, and
                > >> >useful tips for everyday life. http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/964
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
                > >> >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >> >
                > >>
                > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > >> Learn2 Avoid Junk Mail. Learn2 Shop for Bargain Airfares. Learn2
                > >> Weatherize Your Home. Learn2 Speak Wine. Learn2 Get by in French.
                > >> Learn2 Negotiate a Raise. http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/965
                > >>
                > >> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
                > >> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                > >
                > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > >A shopper’s dream come true! Find practically anything on earth at eBay!
                > >Come and browse the more than 2 million items up for bid at any time.
                > >You never know what you might find at eBay!
                > >http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1140
                > >
                > >
                > >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
                > >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > Looking for the hottest sports memorabilia or sporting goods
                > specials? eBay has thousands of trading cards, sports autographs
                > and collectibles.You never know what you might find at eBay!
                > http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1143
                >
                > eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
                > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
              • Samson family
                Thanks, Pippo, That all fits in with my own experience. Being such a shallow hull, ballast would never get very low, and would probably only serve to slow the
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 31, 1999
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks, Pippo,

                  That all fits in with my own experience. Being such a shallow hull, ballast
                  would never get very low, and would probably only serve to slow the boat
                  down. The slack bilges give the Chebacco a good turn of speed (low wetted
                  area) - especially helpful in light airs. One factor that isn't considered,
                  though, is the effect of crew weight - which is VERY significant on a light
                  displacement boat like Chebacco. Her behaviour is very much dependent on
                  how the crew weight is distributed. She can stand up to some very rough
                  weather with three fatties sitting on the weather bench. Just a big dinghy
                  really.

                  It's a matter of horses for courses - The trick is to know your horse before
                  committing to it! I'm fortunate in my choice of Chebacco for the shallow
                  estuary sailing that I do 95% of the time - more by luck than good
                  judgement, though!

                  Incidentally, how does DSF relate to the Euro categories A, B, C, and D . .
                  . ? Or is there a simple relationship?

                  Bill
                  -- bill.samson@...

                  Chebacco News can be viewed on:
                  http://members.xoom.com/billsamson

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco <pippobianco@...>
                  To: bolger@egroups.com <bolger@egroups.com>
                  Date: 30 October 1999 20:58
                  Subject: [bolger] Re: DSF


                  >Hi Bill - According to the numbers, well, yes, some ballast would
                  >increase the dry displacement and lower the center of mass. My results
                  >say that the Chebacco is less than average in the following parameters:
                  >
                  >Displacement-lenght factor ( the boat is light w.r.t to its size)
                  >Beam-displacemnt factor (the beam is too wide)
                  >Self righting factor (the Chebacco has a very small righting moment at
                  >90 degrees of heel)
                  >Relative area factor (the range of stability is somehow low)
                  >
                  >On the other hand, the Chebacco is right on the average in the
                  >Stability speed loss ratio (should sail reasonably well in rough water),
                  >and better than average in the Sail area displacement beam lenght factor
                  >(good ability in carrying sail).
                  >
                  >Some ballast down below would stiffen the boat and increase the DSF, not
                  >dramatically though, provided that the overall dispacement remains the
                  >same. I don't think you can realistically increase the DSF to a value of
                  >more than 15.
                  >
                  >Best, Pippo
                  >
                  >Samson family ha scritto:
                  >>
                  >> Thanks, Pippo,
                  >>
                  >> I wasn't sure, but thought it might be something like that. Presumably a
                  >> little ballast low down would help? Do you know how that compares with a
                  >> Drascombe Lugger, for example? The other interesting boat in this class
                  is
                  >> the Falmouth Bass Boat, which is supposed to be category C (Inshore?)
                  >>
                  >> Bill
                  >> -- bill.samson@...
                  >>
                  >> Chebacco News can be viewed on:
                  >> http://members.xoom.com/billsamson
                  >>
                  >> -----Original Message-----
                  >> From: Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco <pippobianco@...>
                  >> To: bolger@egroups.com <bolger@egroups.com>
                  >> Date: 30 October 1999 10:23
                  >> Subject: [bolger] Re: DSF
                  >>
                  >> >Dear Bill - it's right on the border between inshore and sheltered,
                  >> >depending on how high the gravity center is w.r.t. to the waterline. I
                  >> >estimate that, given the shape of the Chebacco, the DSF is a bit
                  >> >underestimated for the boat.
                  >> >Best, Pippo
                  >> >
                  >> >Samson family ha scritto:
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Dear Pippo,
                  >> >>
                  >> >> I know you've done a detailed analysis of Chebacco's characteristics.
                  >> Which
                  >> >> category do you think she fits best?
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Bill
                  >> >> -- bill.samson@...
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Chebacco News can be viewed on:
                  >> >> http://members.xoom.com/billsamson
                  >> >>
                  >> >> -----Original Message-----
                  >> >> From: bianco@... <bianco@...>
                  >> >> To: bolger@... <bolger@...>
                  >> >> Date: 29 October 1999 09:14
                  >> >> Subject: [bolger] Re: DSF
                  >> >>
                  >> >> >David
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >> I read Pippo's exposition on the micro with considerable interest.
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >Thanks
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >> It's always fun to see what people who know what they are doing
                  think
                  >> >> >> about when they do what they do (like design boats.)
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >Hey, this is a bit involved, my English fails after two levels of
                  >> >> >nested loops... What does it mean, plainly?
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >> This might come under the "there's no such thing as a stupid
                  >> >> >> question" catagory, but just what do those 4 DSF categories mean?
                  >> >> >> What IS the difference between sheltered and inshore, offshore and
                  >> >> >> ocean?
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >I imagine the difference here is the size and strenght of the waves
                  >> >> >(fetch effects).
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >> I suppose it doesn't matter much, with enough stupidity and/or
                  >> >> >> hubris, you can get your butt kicked on just about any body of
                  water.
                  >> >> >> But if people are taking measurements and making distinctions, I'd
                  >> >> >> like to know what's going into the calculation.
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >The method I applied is being developed in the framework of an ISO
                  >> >> >working group. As far as I know, it has not yet been finalized. I've
                  >> >> >tried to retrace the original document without success up to now. In
                  >> >> >any case, here are the parameters that go into the calculations (hope
                  >> >> >not to forget anything):
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >Length out all
                  >> >> >Length at water level
                  >> >> >Maximum beam
                  >> >> >Beam at water level
                  >> >> >Canoe body draft
                  >> >> >Sail area
                  >> >> >Displacement
                  >> >> >Righting arm at 90 degrees of heel
                  >> >> >Metacentric heigth
                  >> >> >Stability range (draw the stability curve, compute the areas above
                  and
                  >> >> >below the zero and compute the ratio between the two)
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >Then you compute some 7 parameters with a few formulas, and finally
                  you
                  >> >> >get your DSF. I think the method gives meaningful results.
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >Best, Pippo
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >
                  >> >>
                  >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >> >> >Java or juggling?. Everybody learns something at Learn2.com. Where
                  >> >> >you'll find thousands of free 2torials, affordable online courses,
                  and
                  >> >> >useful tips for everyday life.
                  http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/964
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
                  >> >> >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> >
                  >> >>
                  >>
                  >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >> >> Learn2 Avoid Junk Mail. Learn2 Shop for Bargain Airfares. Learn2
                  >> >> Weatherize Your Home. Learn2 Speak Wine. Learn2 Get by in French.
                  >> >> Learn2 Negotiate a Raise. http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/965
                  >> >>
                  >> >> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
                  >> >> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                  >> >
                  >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >> >A shopper’s dream come true! Find practically anything on earth at eBay!
                  >> >Come and browse the more than 2 million items up for bid at any time.
                  >> >You never know what you might find at eBay!
                  >> >http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1140
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
                  >> >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >> Looking for the hottest sports memorabilia or sporting goods
                  >> specials? eBay has thousands of trading cards, sports autographs
                  >> and collectibles.You never know what you might find at eBay!
                  >> http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1143
                  >>
                  >> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
                  >> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                  >
                  >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >Looking for the hottest sports memorabilia or sporting goods
                  >specials? eBay has thousands of trading cards, sports autographs
                  >and collectibles.You never know what you might find at eBay!
                  >http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1143
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
                  >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco
                  Dear Bill - I don t know. I haven t been able to find the definitions of the categories on the net. By the way, do you have such an URL to point me to? Best,
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 1, 1999
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Bill - I don't know. I haven't been able to find the definitions of
                    the categories on the net. By the way, do you have such an URL to point
                    me to?

                    Best, Pippo

                    Samson family ha scritto:

                    >
                    > Incidentally, how does DSF relate to the Euro categories A, B, C, and D . .
                    > . ? Or is there a simple relationship?
                    >
                    > Bill
                    > -- bill.samson@...
                    >
                    > Chebacco News can be viewed on:
                    > http://members.xoom.com/billsamson
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco <pippobianco@...>
                    > To: bolger@egroups.com <bolger@egroups.com>
                    > Date: 30 October 1999 20:58
                    > Subject: [bolger] Re: DSF
                    >
                    > >Hi Bill - According to the numbers, well, yes, some ballast would
                    > >increase the dry displacement and lower the center of mass. My results
                    > >say that the Chebacco is less than average in the following parameters:
                    > >
                    > >Displacement-lenght factor ( the boat is light w.r.t to its size)
                    > >Beam-displacemnt factor (the beam is too wide)
                    > >Self righting factor (the Chebacco has a very small righting moment at
                    > >90 degrees of heel)
                    > >Relative area factor (the range of stability is somehow low)
                    > >
                    > >On the other hand, the Chebacco is right on the average in the
                    > >Stability speed loss ratio (should sail reasonably well in rough water),
                    > >and better than average in the Sail area displacement beam lenght factor
                    > >(good ability in carrying sail).
                    > >
                    > >Some ballast down below would stiffen the boat and increase the DSF, not
                    > >dramatically though, provided that the overall dispacement remains the
                    > >same. I don't think you can realistically increase the DSF to a value of
                    > >more than 15.
                    > >
                    > >Best, Pippo
                    > >
                    > >Samson family ha scritto:
                    > >>
                    > >> Thanks, Pippo,
                    > >>
                    > >> I wasn't sure, but thought it might be something like that. Presumably a
                    > >> little ballast low down would help? Do you know how that compares with a
                    > >> Drascombe Lugger, for example? The other interesting boat in this class
                    > is
                    > >> the Falmouth Bass Boat, which is supposed to be category C (Inshore?)
                    > >>
                    > >> Bill
                    > >> -- bill.samson@...
                    > >>
                    > >> Chebacco News can be viewed on:
                    > >> http://members.xoom.com/billsamson
                    > >>
                    > >> -----Original Message-----
                    > >> From: Giuseppe 'Pippo' Bianco <pippobianco@...>
                    > >> To: bolger@egroups.com <bolger@egroups.com>
                    > >> Date: 30 October 1999 10:23
                    > >> Subject: [bolger] Re: DSF
                    > >>
                    > >> >Dear Bill - it's right on the border between inshore and sheltered,
                    > >> >depending on how high the gravity center is w.r.t. to the waterline. I
                    > >> >estimate that, given the shape of the Chebacco, the DSF is a bit
                    > >> >underestimated for the boat.
                    > >> >Best, Pippo
                    > >> >
                    > >> >Samson family ha scritto:
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> Dear Pippo,
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> I know you've done a detailed analysis of Chebacco's characteristics.
                    > >> Which
                    > >> >> category do you think she fits best?
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> Bill
                    > >> >> -- bill.samson@...
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> Chebacco News can be viewed on:
                    > >> >> http://members.xoom.com/billsamson
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> -----Original Message-----
                    > >> >> From: bianco@... <bianco@...>
                    > >> >> To: bolger@... <bolger@...>
                    > >> >> Date: 29 October 1999 09:14
                    > >> >> Subject: [bolger] Re: DSF
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> >David
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >> I read Pippo's exposition on the micro with considerable interest.
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >Thanks
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >> It's always fun to see what people who know what they are doing
                    > think
                    > >> >> >> about when they do what they do (like design boats.)
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >Hey, this is a bit involved, my English fails after two levels of
                    > >> >> >nested loops... What does it mean, plainly?
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >> This might come under the "there's no such thing as a stupid
                    > >> >> >> question" catagory, but just what do those 4 DSF categories mean?
                    > >> >> >> What IS the difference between sheltered and inshore, offshore and
                    > >> >> >> ocean?
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >I imagine the difference here is the size and strenght of the waves
                    > >> >> >(fetch effects).
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >> I suppose it doesn't matter much, with enough stupidity and/or
                    > >> >> >> hubris, you can get your butt kicked on just about any body of
                    > water.
                    > >> >> >> But if people are taking measurements and making distinctions, I'd
                    > >> >> >> like to know what's going into the calculation.
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >The method I applied is being developed in the framework of an ISO
                    > >> >> >working group. As far as I know, it has not yet been finalized. I've
                    > >> >> >tried to retrace the original document without success up to now. In
                    > >> >> >any case, here are the parameters that go into the calculations (hope
                    > >> >> >not to forget anything):
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >Length out all
                    > >> >> >Length at water level
                    > >> >> >Maximum beam
                    > >> >> >Beam at water level
                    > >> >> >Canoe body draft
                    > >> >> >Sail area
                    > >> >> >Displacement
                    > >> >> >Righting arm at 90 degrees of heel
                    > >> >> >Metacentric heigth
                    > >> >> >Stability range (draw the stability curve, compute the areas above
                    > and
                    > >> >> >below the zero and compute the ratio between the two)
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >Then you compute some 7 parameters with a few formulas, and finally
                    > you
                    > >> >> >get your DSF. I think the method gives meaningful results.
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >Best, Pippo
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >>
                    > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > >> >> >Java or juggling?. Everybody learns something at Learn2.com. Where
                    > >> >> >you'll find thousands of free 2torials, affordable online courses,
                    > and
                    > >> >> >useful tips for everyday life.
                    > http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/964
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
                    > >> >> >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >> >
                    > >> >>
                    > >>
                    > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > >> >> Learn2 Avoid Junk Mail. Learn2 Shop for Bargain Airfares. Learn2
                    > >> >> Weatherize Your Home. Learn2 Speak Wine. Learn2 Get by in French.
                    > >> >> Learn2 Negotiate a Raise. http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/965
                    > >> >>
                    > >> >> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
                    > >> >> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                    > >> >
                    > >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > >> >A shopper’s dream come true! Find practically anything on earth at eBay!
                    > >> >Come and browse the more than 2 million items up for bid at any time.
                    > >> >You never know what you might find at eBay!
                    > >> >http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1140
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
                    > >> >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >> >
                    > >>
                    > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > >> Looking for the hottest sports memorabilia or sporting goods
                    > >> specials? eBay has thousands of trading cards, sports autographs
                    > >> and collectibles.You never know what you might find at eBay!
                    > >> http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1143
                    > >>
                    > >> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
                    > >> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                    > >
                    > >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > >Looking for the hottest sports memorabilia or sporting goods
                    > >specials? eBay has thousands of trading cards, sports autographs
                    > >and collectibles.You never know what you might find at eBay!
                    > >http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1143
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
                    > >http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > Looking for the hottest sports memorabilia or sporting goods
                    > specials? eBay has thousands of trading cards, sports autographs
                    > and collectibles.You never know what you might find at eBay!
                    > http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1143
                    >
                    > eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger
                    > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                  • Samson family
                    ... Not that I know of. I understand that A is open ocean, B is coastal (?) , C is inshore, D is sheltered . . . But trying to get any documentation on the
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 1, 1999
                    • 0 Attachment
                      >Dear Bill - I don't know. I haven't been able to find the definitions of
                      >the categories on the net. By the way, do you have such an URL to point
                      >me to?
                      >

                      Not that I know of. I understand that A is open ocean, B is coastal (?) , C
                      is inshore, D is sheltered . . . But trying to get any documentation on the
                      subject is like getting blood out of a stone. I just go by what the boating
                      magazines say - but I've no idea where they get their information from.

                      I find it incredible that the EC has no information that's worth a shit on
                      the net. I'm no right wing Eurosceptic, but this kind of secrecy and
                      incompetence does them no favours.

                      These Euroidiots are pretty good at making laws and then making it
                      impossible to find out what they are! My previous Euro MP spent months
                      trying to find out about the Recreational Craft Directive for me, and
                      couldn't find anybody in Brussels who had heard of it! Poor guy died soon
                      after - probably of frustration! I felt a bit guilty about adding to his
                      burden, so I haven't bothered my new EuroMP about it.

                      Please excuse the ranting!

                      Cheers,

                      Bill
                    • Chuck Merrell
                      Hi Bill, Starting off Monday with a bang, huh? Re the EU: Go back to what Harry Browne says about dealing with bureaucracies, to wit (freely translated and as
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 1, 1999
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Bill,

                        Starting off Monday with a bang, huh?

                        Re the EU: Go back to what Harry Browne says about dealing with
                        bureaucracies, to wit (freely translated and as I remember): Do what you
                        want to do because by the time they get around and in position to cause you
                        any real trouble you'll either be dead of old age, they'll have changed the
                        system or you'll have sold the boat . In any case the perceived problem is
                        moot, i.e. build the boat you want and don't think about it.

                        If your MP can't get any information, can you see the EU guys trying to wade
                        through the miasma of UK common law just to get into position to give you a
                        ticket for an improper boat design, or even if you're tied up to their dock?
                        Maybe I'm too cavalier about this and maybe they're better organized than
                        I'd guess, but I think not!

                        BTW: At the moment sitting here checking email and having a cup of the
                        Scottish Blend Tea that you sent over. Yummy, thanks again!

                        Happy Ranting!

                        Chuck

                        ***********************************
                        CHUCK MERRELL
                        MERRELL WATERCRAFT
                        P. O. Box 80264
                        Seattle, WA 98108-0264
                        (206) 764-1298
                        Email: chuck@...
                        Web Site: http://www.boatdesign.com
                        ********************************************

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Samson family <Bill.Samson@...>
                        To: <bolger@egroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 10:48 AM
                        Subject: [bolger] Re: DSF


                        >
                        >
                        > >Dear Bill - I don't know. I haven't been able to find the definitions of
                        > >the categories on the net. By the way, do you have such an URL to point
                        > >me to?
                        > >
                        >
                        > Not that I know of. I understand that A is open ocean, B is coastal (?) ,
                        C
                        > is inshore, D is sheltered . . . But trying to get any documentation on
                        the
                        > subject is like getting blood out of a stone. I just go by what the
                        boating
                        > magazines say - but I've no idea where they get their information from.
                        >
                        > I find it incredible that the EC has no information that's worth a shit on
                        > the net. I'm no right wing Eurosceptic, but this kind of secrecy and
                        > incompetence does them no favours.
                        >
                        > These Euroidiots are pretty good at making laws and then making it
                        > impossible to find out what they are! My previous Euro MP spent months
                        > trying to find out about the Recreational Craft Directive for me, and
                        > couldn't find anybody in Brussels who had heard of it! Poor guy died soon
                        > after - probably of frustration! I felt a bit guilty about adding to his
                        > burden, so I haven't bothered my new EuroMP about it.
                        >
                        > Please excuse the ranting!
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        >
                        > Bill
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > Looking for the hottest sports memorabilia or sporting goods
                        > specials? eBay has thousands of trading cards, sports autographs
                        > and collectibles.You never know what you might find at eBay!
                        > http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/1143
                        >
                        >
                        > eGroup Home: http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/
                        > http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • bianco@asi.it
                        Dear Bill samson family wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=640 ... (?) , C ... on the ... boating ...
                        Message 11 of 11 , Nov 2, 1999
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Bill

                          "samson family" <bill.samso-@...> wrote:
                          original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/bolger/?start=640

                          > Not that I know of. I understand that A is open ocean, B is coastal
                          (?) , C
                          > is inshore, D is sheltered . . . But trying to get any documentation
                          on the
                          > subject is like getting blood out of a stone. I just go by what the
                          boating
                          > magazines say - but I've no idea where they get their information
                          from.

                          So it appears that there's a 1:1 relationship...

                          > I find it incredible that the EC has no information that's worth a
                          shit on
                          > the net. I'm no right wing Eurosceptic, but this kind of secrecy and
                          > incompetence does them no favours.

                          Agree!

                          > These Euroidiots are pretty good at making laws and then making it
                          > impossible to find out what they are! My previous Euro MP spent
                          months
                          > trying to find out about the Recreational Craft Directive for me, and
                          > couldn't find anybody in Brussels who had heard of it! Poor guy died
                          soon
                          > after - probably of frustration! I felt a bit guilty about adding to
                          his
                          > burden, so I haven't bothered my new EuroMP about it.

                          Well, what can you expect from people who discussed ten years before
                          eventually agreeing on the definition of the "sleeping shirt"...

                          Best, Pippo
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