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Re: Martha Jane on Ebay

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  • Ned Asplundh
    I was one of the bidders. Seller indicated that switching from wood to alum-tube mainmast greatly reduced weight aloft and made stability mods unecessary. He s
    Message 1 of 18 , Nov 3, 2007
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      I was one of the bidders. Seller indicated that switching from wood to
      alum-tube mainmast greatly reduced weight aloft and made stability mods
      unecessary. He's had the boat for 8 years, so I'm assuming that he's
      put it to the test.

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > US$4051.00 & just 12 hours to go.
      >
      > I think I much prefer the looks of the original, as shown here, to
      > the upgraded versions. The all white paint scheme suits too - like
      > the one in Alaska.
      >
      > It's very,very interesting to read the seller's comments that it
      > doesn't need those Bolger reserve bouyancy mods at all. I wonder if
      > he tested?
      >
      > Looks a good boat.
      >
      > Graeme
    • graeme19121984
      ... The tanks don t take up sole height. As I understand the layout there is a tank under each side bunk for part of the length of about 4 cubic feet volume
      Message 2 of 18 , Nov 3, 2007
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        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "proto957" <helio6@...> wrote:
        > Do the water ballast
        > tanks take up sole height? I had assumed the tanks would be on the
        > sides, and the sole would be the boat bottom. I looked through many
        > Martha Jane sites on the web, but could not find an answer to this.

        The tanks don't take up sole height. As I understand the layout
        there is a tank under each side bunk for part of the length of about
        4 cubic feet volume each.

        One Bolger design mod calls for an additional 500lbs of steel
        ballast, but I understand this is a plate attached outside, under
        the bottom.

        In some much earlier postings here some builders said they put bags
        of sand etc in the tanks instead of water, so this boat isn't the
        only one to have removable tops fitted to the water ballast tanks.

        Graeme
      • martha2001au
        If she d been for sale in Australia at that price I would have snapped it up in second! I sailed once on Graham Cheers MJ Shirley Valentine and my lasting
        Message 3 of 18 , Nov 3, 2007
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          If she'd been for sale in Australia at that price I would have snapped
          it up in second! I sailed once on Graham Cheers MJ Shirley Valentine
          and my lasting impression was its power and speed, not to mention the
          great cockit configuration, trailerability, etc etc...

          Col
        • Andres Espino
          I wondered if the dif in headroom was that from the seat to the cabin roof, or sole to the cabin roof. In the specs for my sharpie they are measured from seat
          Message 4 of 18 , Nov 4, 2007
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            I wondered if the dif in headroom was that from the seat to the cabin roof, or sole to the cabin roof. In the specs for my sharpie they are measured from seat to roof :) I found it a bit confusing...

            Andrew

            proto957 <helio6@...> wrote:
            I agree it looks like a good one. I really like these... I think they
            are beautiful.

            The bidding was higher at one point... over $4,500. But the high bid
            was retracted because the seller "changed the description". I believe
            the reasoning was the change in the headroom measurement... from 4
            1/2' to 3 1/2'. But 3 1/2' seems low to me, looking at the pics, and
            comparing them to the guy standing by the boat. Do the water ballast
            tanks take up sole height? I had assumed the tanks would be on the
            sides, and the sole would be the boat bottom. I looked through many
            Martha Jane sites on the web, but could not find an answer to this.

            I wish I had built this boat, or a Long Micro, instead of my Elver in
            '92. Rich.

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > US$4051.00 & just 12 hours to go.
            >
            > I think I much prefer the looks of the original, as shown here, to
            > the upgraded versions. The all white paint scheme suits too - like
            > the one in Alaska.
            >
            > It's very,very interesting to read the seller's comments that it
            > doesn't need those Bolger reserve bouyancy mods at all. I wonder if
            > he tested?
            >
            > Looks a good boat.
            >
            > Graeme
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "proto957" <helio6@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I've been watching it, too: Ebay Item number: 250180856975
            > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
            > ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%
            > 3AIT&viewitem=&item=250180856975&rd=1
            > >
            > > It started at $3,500, and has no bids as of today,> --- In
            > bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > It looks like the Martha Jane built by William D Jochems
            >





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          • Andres Espino
            I buy and sell a lot on ebay (not boats) and it is against sBay rules to bid on your own auctions. They will boot you out if they catch you. Many people do
            Message 5 of 18 , Nov 4, 2007
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              I buy and sell a lot on ebay (not boats) and it is against sBay rules to bid on your own auctions. They will boot you out if they catch you. Many people do it by having a wife or family member bid for them tho.. It happens a lot.

              Andrew


              Mark Balogh <mark@...> wrote:
              When I checked on the auction at the time it was over $4000 it appeared
              to me that the seller was actually bidding on his own auction to drive
              up the price. When I went to check the sellers statistics against the
              bidder who appeared to be the seller I got a message from ebay that
              they had suspended the auction. When I went back all the bids by the
              bidder that appeared to be the seller had been removed and the price
              was reduced to reflect the bids not including the ones who appeared to
              be the seller. Apparently ebay does not view it as ethical that the
              seller bid up his own auction.

              Mark

              On Nov 3, 2007, at 11:51 AM, proto957 wrote:

              > I agree it looks like a good one. I really like these... I think they
              > are beautiful.
              >
              > The bidding was higher at one point... over $4,500. But the high bid
              > was retracted because the seller "changed the description". I believe
              > the reasoning was the change in the headroom measurement... from 4
              > 1/2' to 3 1/2'. But 3 1/2' seems low to me, looking at the pics, and
              > comparing them to the guy standing by the boat. Do the water ballast
              > tanks take up sole height? I had assumed the tanks would be on the
              > sides, and the sole would be the boat bottom. I looked through many
              > Martha Jane sites on the web, but could not find an answer to this.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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            • Andres Espino
              I joined this group hoping to learn more about the cruiser and other of bolger s longer sailing craft.. there are so many different and irregular aspects to
              Message 6 of 18 , Nov 4, 2007
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                I joined this group hoping to learn more about the cruiser and other of bolger's longer sailing craft.. there are so many different and irregular aspects to the design like the Cat rig and leeboards. the Bolger page is mostly plans not much detains about how the boats look or the designs and other pros and cons.. everyone just says "buy the book" LOL

                Andrew

                martha2001au <cmoone11@...> wrote:

                If she'd been for sale in Australia at that price I would have snapped
                it up in second! I sailed once on Graham Cheers MJ Shirley Valentine
                and my lasting impression was its power and speed, not to mention the
                great cockit configuration, trailerability, etc etc...

                Col





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              • graeme19121984
                Hey Col, How did you find those aft sponson upgrades looked in the actual built boat? In the pics of boats such as Shirley Valentine they seem to me not to
                Message 7 of 18 , Nov 5, 2007
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                  Hey Col,

                  How did you find those aft sponson upgrades looked in the actual built
                  boat?

                  In the pics of boats such as "Shirley Valentine" they seem to me not to
                  detract from the looks when in profile view (can hardly be seen), but
                  can seem ungainly in other views. I was wondering if that may be just
                  an artifact of the photography...

                  Graeme


                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "martha2001au" <cmoone11@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > If she'd been for sale in Australia at that price I would have
                  snapped
                  > it up in second! I sailed once on Graham Cheers MJ Shirley Valentine
                  > and my lasting impression was its power and speed, not to mention the
                  > great cockit configuration, trailerability, etc etc...
                  >
                  > Col
                  >
                • Greg Flemming
                  Yes Graeme, interesting about the mods, however, he also mentioned that he changed the masts to aluminium tube which must have a significant impact on the
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 6, 2007
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                    Yes Graeme, interesting about the mods, however, he also mentioned
                    that he changed the masts to aluminium tube which must have a
                    significant impact on the balance
                    Greg F

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > US$4051.00 & just 12 hours to go.
                    >
                    > I think I much prefer the looks of the original, as shown here, to
                    > the upgraded versions. The all white paint scheme suits too - like
                    > the one in Alaska.
                    >
                    > It's very,very interesting to read the seller's comments that it
                    > doesn't need those Bolger reserve bouyancy mods at all. I wonder if
                    > he tested?
                    >
                    > Looks a good boat.
                    >
                    > Graeme
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "proto957" <helio6@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I've been watching it, too: Ebay Item number: 250180856975
                    > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
                    > ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%
                    > 3AIT&viewitem=&item=250180856975&rd=1
                    > >
                    > > It started at $3,500, and has no bids as of today,> --- In
                    > bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > It looks like the Martha Jane built by William D Jochems
                    >
                  • graeme19121984
                    Searching around the net for any newer info on Martha Jane(s) I again came across the Jim Michalak Newsletter page November 1, 2000
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 6, 2007
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                      Searching around the net for any newer info on Martha Jane(s) I
                      again came across the Jim Michalak Newsletter page November 1, 2000
                      http://members.fortunecity.com/duckworks/2000/1101/

                      I don't lightly differ with an opinion of Mr Michalak, but it struck
                      me that a particular warning he gives for boats generally may not
                      apply for the example he gives of Bob Archibald's then recently
                      acquired Martha Jane.

                      Take a look at the third sketch above the caption "KEEP SEATS
                      WATERTIGHT!" Looking at JM's styleized sketch of Martha Jane it
                      occurs to me that water tight cockpit seats just might be the factor
                      that resulted in some early Martha Janes rolling over much further
                      than 90degrees after a knockdown. Consider that a waterballast tank
                      has a volume of about 4 cubic feet and a cockpit seat encloses a
                      volume of what, say, 5 to 6 cubic feet.

                      Consider that once the Martha Jane was knocked to its beam ends
                      there would be 250lbs of water ballast now up in the air and waving
                      about, and that there would be a significant amount of the large
                      cockpit seat watertight volume pushed below the waterline. In the
                      beam ends attitude the cockpit seat volume would be offset to the
                      wrong side of the beam ends centre of bouyancy which would mostly be
                      that of the cabin volume. This unwholsome coupling of weight up in
                      the air and more or less counteracting seat bouyancy linearly in
                      line with it (if not actually directly below it) could easily tip
                      the boat at least so far that water would gain entry via the hatch
                      and lead to the early reported flooding incidents that greatly
                      concerned many.

                      If the cockpit seats were not water tight the Martha Jane perhaps
                      would just sit on her beam ends when knocked down... but then of
                      course the motor etc. would not be supported by their flotation
                      volume... Does anyone know if in the upgrade for the aft sponsons
                      the seats are able to have hinged lids for under seat storage access
                      because the flotation there is no longer necessary, and whether it
                      may be advantageous if they actually flood?

                      The added sponsons act against the boat tipping past beam ends. The
                      addition of a 500lb steel plate design upgrade below the bottom
                      would also serve to act in this way. The trouble there is that
                      Martha Jane was designed to do away with fixed ballast to make for a
                      better trailer sailer than Black Skimmer - with the added 500lbs
                      steel ballast is there any advantage?

                      Does anyone know if the original water ballast tanks are done away
                      with and their space is freed up for storage etc. when the steel
                      plate ballast option is installed?

                      Graeme
                    • martha2001au
                      Hi Graeme, Good to hear from you again! As you can tell I m still pining after a Martha Jane, got distracted though and built a Surf, then work, family,bills,
                      Message 10 of 18 , Nov 6, 2007
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                        Hi Graeme,
                        Good to hear from you again! As you can tell I'm still pining after
                        a Martha Jane, got distracted though and built a Surf, then work,
                        family,bills, you know the drill. I still have all your letters on
                        building and rigging advice on hand ready to go.

                        From my reading of the upgrades, the 500lb shoe is in addition to
                        the water ballast. I liked your idea of adding extra water ballast -
                        do you know how much extra weight in water was added by your mods?
                        Also my original uprades don't mention and storage ability for the
                        cockpit seats.

                        I must admit I wasn't fond of the look of the sponsons at first, but
                        I am getting used to them. The way I'm thinking at the moment,If I
                        ever get to build I'd go with the aluminium mast, extra water
                        ballast, and sponsons. I think she's heavy enough to trailer
                        without an extra 500lb of dead weight.

                        Interesting theory on having free flooding seats - as long as theres
                        enough reserve bouyancy in the sponsons.

                        All the best,

                        Col


                        ups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Searching around the net for any newer info on Martha Jane(s) I
                        > again came across the Jim Michalak Newsletter page November 1,
                        2000
                        > http://members.fortunecity.com/duckworks/2000/1101/
                        >
                        > I don't lightly differ with an opinion of Mr Michalak, but it
                        struck
                        > me that a particular warning he gives for boats generally may not
                        > apply for the example he gives of Bob Archibald's then recently
                        > acquired Martha Jane.
                        >
                        > Take a look at the third sketch above the caption "KEEP SEATS
                        > WATERTIGHT!" Looking at JM's styleized sketch of Martha Jane it
                        > occurs to me that water tight cockpit seats just might be the
                        factor
                        > that resulted in some early Martha Janes rolling over much further
                        > than 90degrees after a knockdown. Consider that a waterballast
                        tank
                        > has a volume of about 4 cubic feet and a cockpit seat encloses a
                        > volume of what, say, 5 to 6 cubic feet.
                        >
                        > Consider that once the Martha Jane was knocked to its beam ends
                        > there would be 250lbs of water ballast now up in the air and
                        waving
                        > about, and that there would be a significant amount of the large
                        > cockpit seat watertight volume pushed below the waterline. In the
                        > beam ends attitude the cockpit seat volume would be offset to the
                        > wrong side of the beam ends centre of bouyancy which would mostly
                        be
                        > that of the cabin volume. This unwholsome coupling of weight up in
                        > the air and more or less counteracting seat bouyancy linearly in
                        > line with it (if not actually directly below it) could easily tip
                        > the boat at least so far that water would gain entry via the hatch
                        > and lead to the early reported flooding incidents that greatly
                        > concerned many.
                        >
                        > If the cockpit seats were not water tight the Martha Jane perhaps
                        > would just sit on her beam ends when knocked down... but then of
                        > course the motor etc. would not be supported by their flotation
                        > volume... Does anyone know if in the upgrade for the aft sponsons
                        > the seats are able to have hinged lids for under seat storage
                        access
                        > because the flotation there is no longer necessary, and whether it
                        > may be advantageous if they actually flood?
                        >
                        > The added sponsons act against the boat tipping past beam ends.
                        The
                        > addition of a 500lb steel plate design upgrade below the bottom
                        > would also serve to act in this way. The trouble there is that
                        > Martha Jane was designed to do away with fixed ballast to make for
                        a
                        > better trailer sailer than Black Skimmer - with the added 500lbs
                        > steel ballast is there any advantage?
                        >
                        > Does anyone know if the original water ballast tanks are done away
                        > with and their space is freed up for storage etc. when the steel
                        > plate ballast option is installed?
                        >
                        > Graeme
                        >
                      • graeme19121984
                        ... after ... on ... Hi Col, good to hear from you too. Those letters would be from someone else, surely, but if you start I ll be very interested in following
                        Message 11 of 18 , Nov 7, 2007
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                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "martha2001au" <cmoone11@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Graeme,
                          > Good to hear from you again! As you can tell I'm still pining
                          after
                          > a Martha Jane, got distracted though and built a Surf, then work,
                          > family,bills, you know the drill. I still have all your letters
                          on
                          > building and rigging advice on hand ready to go.
                          >

                          Hi Col,

                          good to hear from you too. Those letters would be from someone else,
                          surely, but if you start I'll be very interested in following your
                          progress. It wouldn't take much at all to get me down there in big
                          river country to help with turning the hull either. Good luck with
                          that, and do give a shout if extra muscle is required at any stage.


                          > From my reading of the upgrades, the 500lb shoe is in addition to
                          > the water ballast. I liked your idea of adding extra water
                          ballast -
                          > do you know how much extra weight in water was added by your
                          mods?
                          > Also my original uprades don't mention and storage ability for the
                          > cockpit seats.

                          I'm not sure that was my idea, but now you mention it, why not add
                          extra water ballast? Maybe the forward half of the cockpit seats
                          could be flooding too, and the aft half watertight to float the
                          motor?

                          Looking at the BWAOM chapter on WhaleWatcher, designed after Martha
                          Jane, where PCB mentions an earlier incident involving one of his
                          water ballasted designs capsising and flooding, I note how much
                          higher the watertight cockpit seat volumes are relative to the
                          waterballast volumes. The seats are high it is said so that the
                          helmsman may see over the cabin, but this also serves as extra
                          insurance for the WW birdwatcher hull type in a knockdown event. It
                          may arise from a lesson learned again in Martha Jane - flotation
                          high, ballast low.



                          >
                          > I must admit I wasn't fond of the look of the sponsons at first,
                          but
                          > I am getting used to them. The way I'm thinking at the moment,If
                          I
                          > ever get to build I'd go with the aluminium mast, extra water
                          > ballast, and sponsons. I think she's heavy enough to trailer
                          > without an extra 500lb of dead weight.
                          >

                          I guess it will weigh-in somewhere near the Black Skimmer, but it
                          does have a much more trailer friendly rig!

                          > Interesting theory on having free flooding seats - as long as
                          theres
                          > enough reserve bouyancy in the sponsons.

                          Yeah, it's just a theory though. I'm not sure about the entire
                          volume being free flooding???

                          Cheers
                          Graeme
                        • Col
                          Sorry Graeme, Thought you were Graham Cheers, owner of Shirley Valentine. (doh!) He wrote to Bolger and had approved his suggestion to build in extra water
                          Message 12 of 18 , Nov 8, 2007
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                            Sorry Graeme,
                            Thought you were Graham Cheers, owner of Shirley Valentine. (doh!)
                            He wrote to Bolger and had approved his suggestion to build in extra
                            water ballast when this stability question came up - by all reports
                            it has been very successful. His boats up for sale at the moment on
                            the Duck Flat website - I have a lottery ticket in my wallet......

                            Col


                            In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "martha2001au" <cmoone11@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Graeme,
                            > > Good to hear from you again! As you can tell I'm still pining
                            > after
                            > > a Martha Jane, got distracted though and built a Surf, then
                            work,
                            > > family,bills, you know the drill. I still have all your letters
                            > on
                            > > building and rigging advice on hand ready to go.
                            > >
                            >
                            > Hi Col,
                            >
                            > good to hear from you too. Those letters would be from someone
                            else,
                            > surely, but if you start I'll be very interested in following your
                            > progress. It wouldn't take much at all to get me down there in big
                            > river country to help with turning the hull either. Good luck with
                            > that, and do give a shout if extra muscle is required at any stage.
                            >
                            >
                            > > From my reading of the upgrades, the 500lb shoe is in addition
                            to
                            > > the water ballast. I liked your idea of adding extra water
                            > ballast -
                            > > do you know how much extra weight in water was added by your
                            > mods?
                            > > Also my original uprades don't mention and storage ability for
                            the
                            > > cockpit seats.
                            >
                            > I'm not sure that was my idea, but now you mention it, why not add
                            > extra water ballast? Maybe the forward half of the cockpit seats
                            > could be flooding too, and the aft half watertight to float the
                            > motor?
                            >
                            > Looking at the BWAOM chapter on WhaleWatcher, designed after
                            Martha
                            > Jane, where PCB mentions an earlier incident involving one of his
                            > water ballasted designs capsising and flooding, I note how much
                            > higher the watertight cockpit seat volumes are relative to the
                            > waterballast volumes. The seats are high it is said so that the
                            > helmsman may see over the cabin, but this also serves as extra
                            > insurance for the WW birdwatcher hull type in a knockdown event.
                            It
                            > may arise from a lesson learned again in Martha Jane - flotation
                            > high, ballast low.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > > I must admit I wasn't fond of the look of the sponsons at first,
                            > but
                            > > I am getting used to them. The way I'm thinking at the
                            moment,If
                            > I
                            > > ever get to build I'd go with the aluminium mast, extra water
                            > > ballast, and sponsons. I think she's heavy enough to trailer
                            > > without an extra 500lb of dead weight.
                            > >
                            >
                            > I guess it will weigh-in somewhere near the Black Skimmer, but it
                            > does have a much more trailer friendly rig!
                            >
                            > > Interesting theory on having free flooding seats - as long as
                            > theres
                            > > enough reserve bouyancy in the sponsons.
                            >
                            > Yeah, it's just a theory though. I'm not sure about the entire
                            > volume being free flooding???
                            >
                            > Cheers
                            > Graeme
                            >
                          • Bruce Hallman
                            For those who haven t noticed, Mike Stockstill is presently selling his Martha Jane on eBay, basically for the cost of the trailer! If I didn t already own
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 31, 2009
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                              For those who haven't noticed, Mike Stockstill is presently selling
                              his Martha Jane on eBay, basically for the cost of the trailer! If I
                              didn't already own ten boats, I am seriously tempted to bid.
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