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Re: alternative boat glue for epoxy allergy???

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  • fredschum
    I think it was Fine Woodworking that did a comparative glue test a few months ago and determined that Titebond III was the best, slightly ahead of epoxy. It
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 6, 2007
      I think it was Fine Woodworking that did a comparative glue test a
      few months ago and determined that Titebond III was the best,
      slightly ahead of epoxy. It rated the polyurethane glue last. The
      test did not include underwater exposure. However, Titebond is a
      waterproof glue. Guzwell, of Trekka fame, became allergic to epoxy
      and built a boat using a two-part (aliphatic acid-hardened, I think)
      glue. The article was in Wooden Boat some years ago.

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > builders,
      >
      > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior grade
      > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???
      >
      > my last boat was built with 1 part poly-urethane glue ( pl premium
      > construction )which let go after about 2 years around the chines,
      > mostly i suspect, because 1- i took out the dry wall screws after
      the
      > glue dried and 2- i didnt fully cover the hull with fiberglass
      inside
      > and out (which i will do this time.)
      >
      > im doing a small boat - a double Brick 4x16.
      >
      > thanks,
      >
      > bill in NC
      >
    • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
      I will second that on the TB-III TB-II and the Gorila glue types are only water RESISTANT in the fine print. Glues like PL don t soak in as well and so they
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 6, 2007
        I will second that on the TB-III TB-II and the Gorila glue types are
        only water RESISTANT in the fine print. Glues like PL don't soak in
        as well and so they only surface glue. If you are going to glass
        afterwards why not use the same precautions you use to glass to glue.
        Proper protection with nonfully cured epoxy like gloves and masks at
        all times though a pain saves the itch.

        Jon

        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "fredschum" <fredschum@...> wrote:
        >
        > I think it was Fine Woodworking that did a comparative glue test a
        > few months ago and determined that Titebond III was the best,
        > slightly ahead of epoxy. It rated the polyurethane glue last. The
        > test did not include underwater exposure. However, Titebond is a
        > waterproof glue. Guzwell, of Trekka fame, became allergic to epoxy
        > and built a boat using a two-part (aliphatic acid-hardened, I
        think)
        > glue. The article was in Wooden Boat some years ago.
        >
        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > builders,
        > >
        > > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior grade
        > > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???
        > >
        > > my last boat was built with 1 part poly-urethane glue ( pl
        premium
        > > construction )which let go after about 2 years around the chines,
        > > mostly i suspect, because 1- i took out the dry wall screws after
        > the
        > > glue dried and 2- i didnt fully cover the hull with fiberglass
        > inside
        > > and out (which i will do this time.)
        > >
        > > im doing a small boat - a double Brick 4x16.
        > >
        > > thanks,
        > >
        > > bill in NC
        > >
        >
      • Bruce Hallman
        ... Excellent boats have been built for many centuries without epoxy. They used plenty of nails, screws, and caulking.
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 6, 2007
          On 10/6/07, bill shamblin <bshamblin2002@...> wrote:

          > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior grade
          > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???

          Excellent boats have been built for many centuries without epoxy.
          They used plenty of nails, screws, and caulking.
        • Patrick Crockett
          ... Or trunnels and tar and oakum.
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 6, 2007
            > Excellent boats have been built for many centuries without epoxy.
            > They used plenty of nails, screws, and caulking.
            Or trunnels and tar and oakum.
          • Charles Rouse
            ... wrote: That s bad luck with the expoxy. I use epoxy but John Welsford has a little discussion about glue here, http://tinyurl.com/2ueezj Resorcinol has
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 6, 2007
              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@...>
              wrote:
              That's bad luck with the expoxy. I use epoxy but John Welsford has a
              little discussion about glue here,

              http://tinyurl.com/2ueezj

              Resorcinol has been used on boats, it requires that you learn how
              to use it. Jamestown Distributors might have it.

              Charles Rouse
              >
              > builders,
              >
              > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior grade
              > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???
              >
              > my last boat was built with 1 part poly-urethane glue ( pl premium
              > construction )which let go after about 2 years around the chines,
              > mostly i suspect, because 1- i took out the dry wall screws after
              the
              > glue dried and 2- i didnt fully cover the hull with fiberglass
              inside
              > and out (which i will do this time.)
              >
              > im doing a small boat - a double Brick 4x16.
              >
              > thanks,
              >
              > bill in NC
              >
            • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
              No disrespect for John but the fine print on the back of Gorila glue here in the us says it is water resistant. Jon ... a ... premium
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 6, 2007
                No disrespect for John but the fine print on the back of Gorila glue
                here in the us says it is water resistant.

                Jon

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Rouse" <zavala@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@>
                > wrote:
                > That's bad luck with the expoxy. I use epoxy but John Welsford has
                a
                > little discussion about glue here,
                >
                > http://tinyurl.com/2ueezj
                >
                > Resorcinol has been used on boats, it requires that you learn how
                > to use it. Jamestown Distributors might have it.
                >
                > Charles Rouse
                > >
                > > builders,
                > >
                > > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior grade
                > > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???
                > >
                > > my last boat was built with 1 part poly-urethane glue ( pl
                premium
                > > construction )which let go after about 2 years around the chines,
                > > mostly i suspect, because 1- i took out the dry wall screws after
                > the
                > > glue dried and 2- i didnt fully cover the hull with fiberglass
                > inside
                > > and out (which i will do this time.)
                > >
                > > im doing a small boat - a double Brick 4x16.
                > >
                > > thanks,
                > >
                > > bill in NC
                > >
                >
              • Kenneth Grome
                Gorilla glue has been reported to fail in more than one boating forum. Apparently it does not live up to the hype. Sincerely, Ken Grome Bagacay Boatworks
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 6, 2007
                  Gorilla glue has been reported to fail in more than one boating forum.
                  Apparently it does not live up to the hype.

                  Sincerely,
                  Ken Grome
                  Bagacay Boatworks
                  www.bagacayboatworks.com




                  > No disrespect for John but the fine print
                  > on the back of Gorila glue here in the us
                  > says it is water resistant.
                • David
                  I m with Jon & Kenneth. My personal experience with Gorilla Glue & it s clones has not been good. I ve largely stopped using it. The resorcinol is a good
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 6, 2007
                    I'm with Jon & Kenneth. My personal experience with Gorilla Glue &
                    it's clones has not been good. I've largely stopped using it.

                    The resorcinol is a good option, if you're willing & able to take the
                    care necessary to achieve close-tolerance joinery, and allow for
                    sufficient clamping pressure. It has been used for boatbuilding &
                    airplane construction for many decades, and was the adhesive of choice
                    prior to the widespread availability of epoxies.

                    Epoxy is just as good, if not better as an adhesive. The added
                    advantages are: sloppy, quicker joints are fine - even good; minimum
                    clamping is required; it also serves as a high-build, water-resistant
                    primer coat for painted or varnished finishes - in fact, a variety of
                    available additives make it useful for a wide range of tasks.

                    Seems like you have three options: use epoxy, but take extraordinary
                    steps to protect yourself from exposure (seems doable, but watch for
                    symptoms!); switch to resorcinol glue, and live with it's limitations
                    (also doable); switch to traditional boatbuilding techniques (nothing
                    wrong with that, but is slower with more of a learning curve).

                    Cheers,
                    David Graybeal
                    Portland, OR

                    "Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours" -- Richard
                    Bach

                    *************

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Gorilla glue has been reported to fail in more than one boating forum.
                    > Apparently it does not live up to the hype.
                    >
                    > Sincerely,
                    > Ken Grome
                    > Bagacay Boatworks
                    > www.bagacayboatworks.com
                  • Robb
                    Hmmmmmm......this is the first time I ve ever heard anything negative about gorilla glue. I ve built numerous small boats like bolger skimmers and other
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 6, 2007
                      Hmmmmmm......this is the first time I've ever heard anything negative about gorilla glue. I've built numerous small boats like bolger skimmers and other similar 2 sheet boats.....sometimes without even taping the chines at all and I've NEVER had any problem whatsoever. Dave Zeiger who designed the trilobyte boats even recommends it OVER epoxy for construction. For years I refused to use anything other than epoxy but I've finally come off my addiction and building boats is MUCH more enjoyable and faster with the other glues. on an important boat I do glass the bottom but it certainly isn't out of fear of the gorilla glue failing. I stongly question the validity of any report of it failing. My latest skimmer is on year 7 of its life and it has been outside 99% of the time. I am currently using it on all of the internal framing on my Robbsboat. Do a good enough job on your cutting so that you don't have any cracks and gorilla glue won't come apart. Robb


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: David
                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 12:28 AM
                      Subject: [bolger] Re: alternative boat glue for epoxy allergy???


                      I'm with Jon & Kenneth. My personal experience with Gorilla Glue &
                      it's clones has not been good. I've largely stopped using it.

                      The resorcinol is a good option, if you're willing & able to take the
                      care necessary to achieve close-tolerance joinery, and allow for
                      sufficient clamping pressure. It has been used for boatbuilding &
                      airplane construction for many decades, and was the adhesive of choice
                      prior to the widespread availability of epoxies.

                      Epoxy is just as good, if not better as an adhesive. The added
                      advantages are: sloppy, quicker joints are fine - even good; minimum
                      clamping is required; it also serves as a high-build, water-resistant
                      primer coat for painted or varnished finishes - in fact, a variety of
                      available additives make it useful for a wide range of tasks.

                      Seems like you have three options: use epoxy, but take extraordinary
                      steps to protect yourself from exposure (seems doable, but watch for
                      symptoms!); switch to resorcinol glue, and live with it's limitations
                      (also doable); switch to traditional boatbuilding techniques (nothing
                      wrong with that, but is slower with more of a learning curve).

                      Cheers,
                      David Graybeal
                      Portland, OR

                      "Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours" -- Richard
                      Bach

                      *************

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Gorilla glue has been reported to fail in more than one boating forum.
                      > Apparently it does not live up to the hype.
                      >
                      > Sincerely,
                      > Ken Grome
                      > Bagacay Boatworks
                      > www.bagacayboatworks.com





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                      Glad to see you havn t had problems but my info came frol the Wood Products Testing Lab. Good thing you use tight fits the stringth drops quickly when it fomes
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 6, 2007
                        Glad to see you havn't had problems but my info came frol the Wood
                        Products Testing Lab. Good thing you use tight fits the stringth
                        drops quickly when it fomes to fill gaps. Read the small print on the
                        back it says WATER RESISTANT not proof.

                        Jon

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robb" <Robb@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hmmmmmm......this is the first time I've ever heard anything
                        negative about gorilla glue. I've built numerous small boats like
                        bolger skimmers and other similar 2 sheet boats.....sometimes without
                        even taping the chines at all and I've NEVER had any problem
                        whatsoever. Dave Zeiger who designed the trilobyte boats even
                        recommends it OVER epoxy for construction. For years I refused to
                        use anything other than epoxy but I've finally come off my addiction
                        and building boats is MUCH more enjoyable and faster with the other
                        glues. on an important boat I do glass the bottom but it certainly
                        isn't out of fear of the gorilla glue failing. I stongly question
                        the validity of any report of it failing. My latest skimmer is on
                        year 7 of its life and it has been outside 99% of the time. I am
                        currently using it on all of the internal framing on my Robbsboat.
                        Do a good enough job on your cutting so that you don't have any
                        cracks and gorilla glue won't come apart. Robb
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: David
                        > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 12:28 AM
                        > Subject: [bolger] Re: alternative boat glue for epoxy allergy???
                        >
                        >
                        > I'm with Jon & Kenneth. My personal experience with Gorilla Glue &
                        > it's clones has not been good. I've largely stopped using it.
                        >
                        > The resorcinol is a good option, if you're willing & able to take
                        the
                        > care necessary to achieve close-tolerance joinery, and allow for
                        > sufficient clamping pressure. It has been used for boatbuilding &
                        > airplane construction for many decades, and was the adhesive of
                        choice
                        > prior to the widespread availability of epoxies.
                        >
                        > Epoxy is just as good, if not better as an adhesive. The added
                        > advantages are: sloppy, quicker joints are fine - even good;
                        minimum
                        > clamping is required; it also serves as a high-build, water-
                        resistant
                        > primer coat for painted or varnished finishes - in fact, a
                        variety of
                        > available additives make it useful for a wide range of tasks.
                        >
                        > Seems like you have three options: use epoxy, but take
                        extraordinary
                        > steps to protect yourself from exposure (seems doable, but watch
                        for
                        > symptoms!); switch to resorcinol glue, and live with it's
                        limitations
                        > (also doable); switch to traditional boatbuilding techniques
                        (nothing
                        > wrong with that, but is slower with more of a learning curve).
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        > David Graybeal
                        > Portland, OR
                        >
                        > "Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours" --
                        Richard
                        > Bach
                        >
                        > *************
                        >
                        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@>
                        wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Gorilla glue has been reported to fail in more than one boating
                        forum.
                        > > Apparently it does not live up to the hype.
                        > >
                        > > Sincerely,
                        > > Ken Grome
                        > > Bagacay Boatworks
                        > > www.bagacayboatworks.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • David
                        It was Fine WW, I believe. They tested both good joints and sloppy joints. The Titebond III did, indeed, come out ahead of the tested group - which
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 7, 2007
                          It was Fine WW, I believe. They tested both "good" joints and "sloppy"
                          joints. The Titebond III did, indeed, come out ahead of the tested
                          group - which included Gorilla Glue, but did not, IIRC, include either
                          resorcinol or plastic resin glue. I might also note that the epoxy
                          tested was not one I was experienced with. I'm not sure it was
                          representative of those typically used for boatbuilding, but probably
                          it was close enough.

                          I like Titebond III, and - as a professional woodworker - have been
                          using it increasingly. However, if I remember the article correctly,
                          they did not address the issues of repairability, or reversibility,
                          neither of which are good traits for T III.

                          Repairability is whether an adhesive will glue to itself. Many folks
                          say T III won't. My experience is not as bad as some of the stories
                          offered, but it seems a bit iffy. I've not enough experience yet to
                          say for sure what factors come into play. My sense is that the more
                          fresh wood fibre exposed the better and the earlier in the cure the
                          better. Epoxy and resorcinol have good repairability. Gorilla glue -
                          also not trustworthy.

                          Reversibility is whether a cured/dried glued joint can be undone. For
                          example, antique furniture was usually assembled with some sort of
                          hide glue. Hide glue can be reversed with the application of heat -
                          esp. moist heat. A conservator of fine antiques would never do repairs
                          using epoxy, or PVA glue (like standard Titebond), or modifed PVA
                          (like T III). Partly, that's for historical accuracy, and partly it's
                          for the sake of being able to make future repairs without damaging a
                          valuable piece of furniture. The closest any of the typical marine
                          adhesives comes to reversibility is epoxy. If heated to maybe 160 -
                          200 degrees F(depending on the brand/formulation), it will begin to
                          reliquify.

                          As for my distrust of Gorilla Glue, it may just be my impatient, surly
                          side kicking in when faced with some new "miracle goo". I tried it on
                          several small projects for my own use. I made some test panels. Some
                          panels I left out to weather, some I did some destruction testing on,
                          and some I did the boil test on. I was not impressed with the results.
                          I've also seen a few reliable sources echo my concerns (such as the
                          Fine WW test mentioned above). However, several of my 'Ol Coot buddies
                          have built their boats primarily with GG. None have fallen apart yet,
                          and neither has yours. My cynical self says, talk to me 10 years from
                          now. Talk to me after your boatcover leaks and she sits with a bilge
                          full of water for months. Talk to me after you go through some heavy
                          weather, and she gets tossed and beat beyond what you ever expected
                          her to. I hope those reports will be good, but I'm a bit skeptical.

                          Cheers & Smears,
                          David Graybeal
                          Portland, OR

                          "These are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I've got
                          others" -- Groucho Marx

                          **************

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "fredschum" <fredschum@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I think it was Fine Woodworking that did a comparative glue test a
                          > few months ago and determined that Titebond III was the best,
                          > slightly ahead of epoxy. It rated the polyurethane glue last. The
                          > test did not include underwater exposure. However, Titebond is a
                          > waterproof glue. Guzwell, of Trekka fame, became allergic to epoxy
                          > and built a boat using a two-part (aliphatic acid-hardened, I think)
                          > glue. The article was in Wooden Boat some years ago.
                          >
                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > builders,
                          > >
                          > > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior grade
                          > > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???
                          > >
                          > > my last boat was built with 1 part poly-urethane glue ( pl premium
                          > > construction )which let go after about 2 years around the chines,
                          > > mostly i suspect, because 1- i took out the dry wall screws after
                          > the
                          > > glue dried and 2- i didnt fully cover the hull with fiberglass
                          > inside
                          > > and out (which i will do this time.)
                          > >
                          > > im doing a small boat - a double Brick 4x16.
                          > >
                          > > thanks,
                          > >
                          > > bill in NC
                          > >
                          >
                        • bill shamblin
                          thanks everyone! this is the information i needed. bill in nc ... and sloppy ... either ... probably ... correctly, ... folks ... glue - ... For ... repairs
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 7, 2007
                            thanks everyone! this is the information i needed.

                            bill in nc



                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > It was Fine WW, I believe. They tested both "good" joints
                            and "sloppy"
                            > joints. The Titebond III did, indeed, come out ahead of the tested
                            > group - which included Gorilla Glue, but did not, IIRC, include
                            either
                            > resorcinol or plastic resin glue. I might also note that the epoxy
                            > tested was not one I was experienced with. I'm not sure it was
                            > representative of those typically used for boatbuilding, but
                            probably
                            > it was close enough.
                            >
                            > I like Titebond III, and - as a professional woodworker - have been
                            > using it increasingly. However, if I remember the article
                            correctly,
                            > they did not address the issues of repairability, or reversibility,
                            > neither of which are good traits for T III.
                            >
                            > Repairability is whether an adhesive will glue to itself. Many
                            folks
                            > say T III won't. My experience is not as bad as some of the stories
                            > offered, but it seems a bit iffy. I've not enough experience yet to
                            > say for sure what factors come into play. My sense is that the more
                            > fresh wood fibre exposed the better and the earlier in the cure the
                            > better. Epoxy and resorcinol have good repairability. Gorilla
                            glue -
                            > also not trustworthy.
                            >
                            > Reversibility is whether a cured/dried glued joint can be undone.
                            For
                            > example, antique furniture was usually assembled with some sort of
                            > hide glue. Hide glue can be reversed with the application of heat -
                            > esp. moist heat. A conservator of fine antiques would never do
                            repairs
                            > using epoxy, or PVA glue (like standard Titebond), or modifed PVA
                            > (like T III). Partly, that's for historical accuracy, and partly
                            it's
                            > for the sake of being able to make future repairs without damaging
                            a
                            > valuable piece of furniture. The closest any of the typical marine
                            > adhesives comes to reversibility is epoxy. If heated to maybe 160 -
                            > 200 degrees F(depending on the brand/formulation), it will begin to
                            > reliquify.
                            >
                            > As for my distrust of Gorilla Glue, it may just be my impatient,
                            surly
                            > side kicking in when faced with some new "miracle goo". I tried it
                            on
                            > several small projects for my own use. I made some test panels.
                            Some
                            > panels I left out to weather, some I did some destruction testing
                            on,
                            > and some I did the boil test on. I was not impressed with the
                            results.
                            > I've also seen a few reliable sources echo my concerns (such as the
                            > Fine WW test mentioned above). However, several of my 'Ol Coot
                            buddies
                            > have built their boats primarily with GG. None have fallen apart
                            yet,
                            > and neither has yours. My cynical self says, talk to me 10 years
                            from
                            > now. Talk to me after your boatcover leaks and she sits with a
                            bilge
                            > full of water for months. Talk to me after you go through some
                            heavy
                            > weather, and she gets tossed and beat beyond what you ever expected
                            > her to. I hope those reports will be good, but I'm a bit skeptical.
                            >
                            > Cheers & Smears,
                            > David Graybeal
                            > Portland, OR
                            >
                            > "These are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I've
                            got
                            > others" -- Groucho Marx
                            >
                            > **************
                            >
                            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "fredschum" <fredschum@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I think it was Fine Woodworking that did a comparative glue test
                            a
                            > > few months ago and determined that Titebond III was the best,
                            > > slightly ahead of epoxy. It rated the polyurethane glue last.
                            The
                            > > test did not include underwater exposure. However, Titebond is a
                            > > waterproof glue. Guzwell, of Trekka fame, became allergic to
                            epoxy
                            > > and built a boat using a two-part (aliphatic acid-hardened, I
                            think)
                            > > glue. The article was in Wooden Boat some years ago.
                            > >
                            > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > builders,
                            > > >
                            > > > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior
                            grade
                            > > > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???
                            > > >
                            > > > my last boat was built with 1 part poly-urethane glue ( pl
                            premium
                            > > > construction )which let go after about 2 years around the
                            chines,
                            > > > mostly i suspect, because 1- i took out the dry wall screws
                            after
                            > > the
                            > > > glue dried and 2- i didnt fully cover the hull with fiberglass
                            > > inside
                            > > > and out (which i will do this time.)
                            > > >
                            > > > im doing a small boat - a double Brick 4x16.
                            > > >
                            > > > thanks,
                            > > >
                            > > > bill in NC
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Bob Slimak
                            One more post on resorcinol and epoxy I first used epoxy as a child around 1959 or 60, thereabouts. It was not on the market to everyone, but my Dad was the
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 7, 2007
                              One more post on resorcinol and epoxy

                              I first used epoxy as a child around 1959 or 60, thereabouts. It was
                              not on the market to everyone, but my Dad was the supervisor of the
                              research machine shop for Bemis company, making prototype machines
                              for the plastic industry. I also had plastic bags when no one know
                              what they were. Who knew what a mess for the environment plastics
                              would turn out to be! Anyway, decades later when I was building my
                              Bruce Roberts Spray, and had an both epoxy joints fail on 7 inch high
                              in a place where they were subjuect to high shear loads, I asked him
                              about it and he said the lab guys say epoxy is great except for
                              shear. I'm sure epoxy has improved a lot since then, but not wanting
                              to take a chance on my wood mast I went back to resorcinol. The
                              reason for this was that, before WWII my Dad worked as a machinest
                              for General Dairy. They made the huge blades for the churns from
                              oak, lamimated with resorcinal into a large plank, about 6" X 12" I
                              seem to recall. Then they put this laminated piece into a huge
                              steambox where it was twisted to make the churn blades, paddles,
                              whatever they called them. Any glue that can survive that can be
                              trusted.
                              I, of course, do use epoxy because I am too impatient to try to make
                              the perfect joints necessary when I don't have thousands of dollars
                              worth of joiners, planers, etc. to make such joints. Remember,
                              before epoxy a GOOD glue joint was expected to be .oo5 inches,
                              something not possible with my $89.95 table saw from Menards:(

                              Bob

                              PS - My Spray is still around the area, and the mast is still good
                              after 23 years.

                              -- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > thanks everyone! this is the information i needed.
                              >
                              > bill in nc
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > It was Fine WW, I believe. They tested both "good" joints
                              > and "sloppy"
                              > > joints. The Titebond III did, indeed, come out ahead of the tested
                              > > group - which included Gorilla Glue, but did not, IIRC, include
                              > either
                              > > resorcinol or plastic resin glue. I might also note that the epoxy
                              > > tested was not one I was experienced with. I'm not sure it was
                              > > representative of those typically used for boatbuilding, but
                              > probably
                              > > it was close enough.
                              > >
                              > > I like Titebond III, and - as a professional woodworker - have
                              been
                              > > using it increasingly. However, if I remember the article
                              > correctly,
                              > > they did not address the issues of repairability, or
                              reversibility,
                              > > neither of which are good traits for T III.
                              > >
                              > > Repairability is whether an adhesive will glue to itself. Many
                              > folks
                              > > say T III won't. My experience is not as bad as some of the
                              stories
                              > > offered, but it seems a bit iffy. I've not enough experience yet
                              to
                              > > say for sure what factors come into play. My sense is that the
                              more
                              > > fresh wood fibre exposed the better and the earlier in the cure
                              the
                              > > better. Epoxy and resorcinol have good repairability. Gorilla
                              > glue -
                              > > also not trustworthy.
                              > >
                              > > Reversibility is whether a cured/dried glued joint can be undone.
                              > For
                              > > example, antique furniture was usually assembled with some sort of
                              > > hide glue. Hide glue can be reversed with the application of
                              heat -
                              > > esp. moist heat. A conservator of fine antiques would never do
                              > repairs
                              > > using epoxy, or PVA glue (like standard Titebond), or modifed PVA
                              > > (like T III). Partly, that's for historical accuracy, and partly
                              > it's
                              > > for the sake of being able to make future repairs without
                              damaging
                              > a
                              > > valuable piece of furniture. The closest any of the typical marine
                              > > adhesives comes to reversibility is epoxy. If heated to maybe
                              160 -
                              > > 200 degrees F(depending on the brand/formulation), it will begin
                              to
                              > > reliquify.
                              > >
                              > > As for my distrust of Gorilla Glue, it may just be my impatient,
                              > surly
                              > > side kicking in when faced with some new "miracle goo". I tried
                              it
                              > on
                              > > several small projects for my own use. I made some test panels.
                              > Some
                              > > panels I left out to weather, some I did some destruction testing
                              > on,
                              > > and some I did the boil test on. I was not impressed with the
                              > results.
                              > > I've also seen a few reliable sources echo my concerns (such as
                              the
                              > > Fine WW test mentioned above). However, several of my 'Ol Coot
                              > buddies
                              > > have built their boats primarily with GG. None have fallen apart
                              > yet,
                              > > and neither has yours. My cynical self says, talk to me 10 years
                              > from
                              > > now. Talk to me after your boatcover leaks and she sits with a
                              > bilge
                              > > full of water for months. Talk to me after you go through some
                              > heavy
                              > > weather, and she gets tossed and beat beyond what you ever
                              expected
                              > > her to. I hope those reports will be good, but I'm a bit
                              skeptical.
                              > >
                              > > Cheers & Smears,
                              > > David Graybeal
                              > > Portland, OR
                              > >
                              > > "These are my principles, and if you don't like them... well,
                              I've
                              > got
                              > > others" -- Groucho Marx
                              > >
                              > > **************
                              > >
                              > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "fredschum" <fredschum@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I think it was Fine Woodworking that did a comparative glue
                              test
                              > a
                              > > > few months ago and determined that Titebond III was the best,
                              > > > slightly ahead of epoxy. It rated the polyurethane glue last.
                              > The
                              > > > test did not include underwater exposure. However, Titebond is
                              a
                              > > > waterproof glue. Guzwell, of Trekka fame, became allergic to
                              > epoxy
                              > > > and built a boat using a two-part (aliphatic acid-hardened, I
                              > think)
                              > > > glue. The article was in Wooden Boat some years ago.
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > builders,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior
                              > grade
                              > > > > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???
                              > > > >
                              > > > > my last boat was built with 1 part poly-urethane glue ( pl
                              > premium
                              > > > > construction )which let go after about 2 years around the
                              > chines,
                              > > > > mostly i suspect, because 1- i took out the dry wall screws
                              > after
                              > > > the
                              > > > > glue dried and 2- i didnt fully cover the hull with
                              fiberglass
                              > > > inside
                              > > > > and out (which i will do this time.)
                              > > > >
                              > > > > im doing a small boat - a double Brick 4x16.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > thanks,
                              > > > >
                              > > > > bill in NC
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                              Proper prep of all woods before gluing is sanding. This is the one mistake most people make the other is to not coat both surfaces befor putting tigather. The
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 7, 2007
                                Proper prep of all woods before gluing is sanding. This is the one
                                mistake most people make the other is to not coat both surfaces befor
                                putting tigather. The first causes poor bond surface the second glue
                                starvation. Both mistakes lead to week glue joints in area of stress.
                                Proper prep helps prevent shear failures. Dried woods be it kilm
                                dried or seasond have closed cells on the surface sanding opens it up
                                for the glue to soak in for better bond.


                                Jon

                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Slimak" <otter55806@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > One more post on resorcinol and epoxy
                                >
                                > I first used epoxy as a child around 1959 or 60, thereabouts. It
                                was
                                > not on the market to everyone, but my Dad was the supervisor of the
                                > research machine shop for Bemis company, making prototype machines
                                > for the plastic industry. I also had plastic bags when no one know
                                > what they were. Who knew what a mess for the environment plastics
                                > would turn out to be! Anyway, decades later when I was building my
                                > Bruce Roberts Spray, and had an both epoxy joints fail on 7 inch
                                high
                                > in a place where they were subjuect to high shear loads, I asked
                                him
                                > about it and he said the lab guys say epoxy is great except for
                                > shear. I'm sure epoxy has improved a lot since then, but not
                                wanting
                                > to take a chance on my wood mast I went back to resorcinol. The
                                > reason for this was that, before WWII my Dad worked as a machinest
                                > for General Dairy. They made the huge blades for the churns from
                                > oak, lamimated with resorcinal into a large plank, about 6" X 12" I
                                > seem to recall. Then they put this laminated piece into a huge
                                > steambox where it was twisted to make the churn blades, paddles,
                                > whatever they called them. Any glue that can survive that can be
                                > trusted.
                                > I, of course, do use epoxy because I am too impatient to try to
                                make
                                > the perfect joints necessary when I don't have thousands of dollars
                                > worth of joiners, planers, etc. to make such joints. Remember,
                                > before epoxy a GOOD glue joint was expected to be .oo5 inches,
                                > something not possible with my $89.95 table saw from Menards:(
                                >
                                > Bob
                                >
                                > PS - My Spray is still around the area, and the mast is still good
                                > after 23 years.
                                >
                                > -- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > thanks everyone! this is the information i needed.
                                > >
                                > > bill in nc
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > It was Fine WW, I believe. They tested both "good" joints
                                > > and "sloppy"
                                > > > joints. The Titebond III did, indeed, come out ahead of the
                                tested
                                > > > group - which included Gorilla Glue, but did not, IIRC, include
                                > > either
                                > > > resorcinol or plastic resin glue. I might also note that the
                                epoxy
                                > > > tested was not one I was experienced with. I'm not sure it was
                                > > > representative of those typically used for boatbuilding, but
                                > > probably
                                > > > it was close enough.
                                > > >
                                > > > I like Titebond III, and - as a professional woodworker - have
                                > been
                                > > > using it increasingly. However, if I remember the article
                                > > correctly,
                                > > > they did not address the issues of repairability, or
                                > reversibility,
                                > > > neither of which are good traits for T III.
                                > > >
                                > > > Repairability is whether an adhesive will glue to itself. Many
                                > > folks
                                > > > say T III won't. My experience is not as bad as some of the
                                > stories
                                > > > offered, but it seems a bit iffy. I've not enough experience
                                yet
                                > to
                                > > > say for sure what factors come into play. My sense is that the
                                > more
                                > > > fresh wood fibre exposed the better and the earlier in the cure
                                > the
                                > > > better. Epoxy and resorcinol have good repairability. Gorilla
                                > > glue -
                                > > > also not trustworthy.
                                > > >
                                > > > Reversibility is whether a cured/dried glued joint can be
                                undone.
                                > > For
                                > > > example, antique furniture was usually assembled with some sort
                                of
                                > > > hide glue. Hide glue can be reversed with the application of
                                > heat -
                                > > > esp. moist heat. A conservator of fine antiques would never do
                                > > repairs
                                > > > using epoxy, or PVA glue (like standard Titebond), or modifed
                                PVA
                                > > > (like T III). Partly, that's for historical accuracy, and
                                partly
                                > > it's
                                > > > for the sake of being able to make future repairs without
                                > damaging
                                > > a
                                > > > valuable piece of furniture. The closest any of the typical
                                marine
                                > > > adhesives comes to reversibility is epoxy. If heated to maybe
                                > 160 -
                                > > > 200 degrees F(depending on the brand/formulation), it will
                                begin
                                > to
                                > > > reliquify.
                                > > >
                                > > > As for my distrust of Gorilla Glue, it may just be my
                                impatient,
                                > > surly
                                > > > side kicking in when faced with some new "miracle goo". I tried
                                > it
                                > > on
                                > > > several small projects for my own use. I made some test panels.
                                > > Some
                                > > > panels I left out to weather, some I did some destruction
                                testing
                                > > on,
                                > > > and some I did the boil test on. I was not impressed with the
                                > > results.
                                > > > I've also seen a few reliable sources echo my concerns (such as
                                > the
                                > > > Fine WW test mentioned above). However, several of my 'Ol Coot
                                > > buddies
                                > > > have built their boats primarily with GG. None have fallen
                                apart
                                > > yet,
                                > > > and neither has yours. My cynical self says, talk to me 10
                                years
                                > > from
                                > > > now. Talk to me after your boatcover leaks and she sits with a
                                > > bilge
                                > > > full of water for months. Talk to me after you go through some
                                > > heavy
                                > > > weather, and she gets tossed and beat beyond what you ever
                                > expected
                                > > > her to. I hope those reports will be good, but I'm a bit
                                > skeptical.
                                > > >
                                > > > Cheers & Smears,
                                > > > David Graybeal
                                > > > Portland, OR
                                > > >
                                > > > "These are my principles, and if you don't like them... well,
                                > I've
                                > > got
                                > > > others" -- Groucho Marx
                                > > >
                                > > > **************
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "fredschum" <fredschum@> wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I think it was Fine Woodworking that did a comparative glue
                                > test
                                > > a
                                > > > > few months ago and determined that Titebond III was the best,
                                > > > > slightly ahead of epoxy. It rated the polyurethane glue last.
                                > > The
                                > > > > test did not include underwater exposure. However, Titebond
                                is
                                > a
                                > > > > waterproof glue. Guzwell, of Trekka fame, became allergic to
                                > > epoxy
                                > > > > and built a boat using a two-part (aliphatic acid-hardened, I
                                > > think)
                                > > > > glue. The article was in Wooden Boat some years ago.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin"
                                <bshamblin2002@>
                                > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > builders,
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior
                                > > grade
                                > > > > > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > my last boat was built with 1 part poly-urethane glue ( pl
                                > > premium
                                > > > > > construction )which let go after about 2 years around the
                                > > chines,
                                > > > > > mostly i suspect, because 1- i took out the dry wall screws
                                > > after
                                > > > > the
                                > > > > > glue dried and 2- i didnt fully cover the hull with
                                > fiberglass
                                > > > > inside
                                > > > > > and out (which i will do this time.)
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > im doing a small boat - a double Brick 4x16.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > thanks,
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > bill in NC
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Bruce Hallman
                                ... I used a (Gorilla Glue type) polyurethane glue on my Bolger Spur II, which is still holding up after a decade. Regardless, I have switched now entirely to
                                Message 15 of 17 , Oct 7, 2007
                                  On 10/6/07, Robb <Robb@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hmmmmmm......this is the first time I've ever heard anything negative about gorilla glue.

                                  I used a (Gorilla Glue type) polyurethane glue on my Bolger Spur II,
                                  which is still holding up after a decade. Regardless, I have switched
                                  now entirely to epoxy glue because it is so excellent and cheap. I
                                  use gloves and entirely avoid skin contact, and work with good
                                  ventilation in my shop (one wall is missing!)

                                  There is one condition where Gorilla Glue is much superior to epoxy:
                                  that is when working outdoors in the rain, and/or with 'green' wet
                                  wood.
                                • ANDREW AIREY
                                  Or,in the case of the replica Cuckoo Chesterfield canal narrowboat that the society will be constructing in about 12 months time(we re waiting for the wood
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Oct 7, 2007
                                    Or,in the case of the replica 'Cuckoo' Chesterfield
                                    canal narrowboat that the society will be constructing
                                    in about 12 months time(we're waiting for the wood to
                                    season),turpentine,boiled linseed oil and horse
                                    manure.The carpenter who will be building the 70ft
                                    boat specified grain,not grass fed horses to provide
                                    the last item.Incidentally,as far as I
                                    know,Chesterfield Cuckoos were the only narrow boats
                                    to be sailed.Leeboards were available but not
                                    generally used on the river Trent(the canal linked
                                    Chesterfield to the Trent)although in later years
                                    usual practise was to get a tow from one of the Trent
                                    tugs,as did the Humber keels.However they occasionally
                                    penetrated as far as the wash,which involved coastal
                                    sailing,and leeboards were used for that.Which makes
                                    me think that PCB should have specified detachable
                                    leeboards on Weston Martyr and not the bigeboard used
                                    cheers
                                    Andy Airey

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