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alternative boat glue for epoxy allergy???

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  • bill shamblin
    builders, what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior grade plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy??? my last boat was built with 1
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 6 3:42 AM
      builders,

      what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior grade
      plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???

      my last boat was built with 1 part poly-urethane glue ( pl premium
      construction )which let go after about 2 years around the chines,
      mostly i suspect, because 1- i took out the dry wall screws after the
      glue dried and 2- i didnt fully cover the hull with fiberglass inside
      and out (which i will do this time.)

      im doing a small boat - a double Brick 4x16.

      thanks,

      bill in NC
    • fredschum
      I think it was Fine Woodworking that did a comparative glue test a few months ago and determined that Titebond III was the best, slightly ahead of epoxy. It
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 6 4:11 AM
        I think it was Fine Woodworking that did a comparative glue test a
        few months ago and determined that Titebond III was the best,
        slightly ahead of epoxy. It rated the polyurethane glue last. The
        test did not include underwater exposure. However, Titebond is a
        waterproof glue. Guzwell, of Trekka fame, became allergic to epoxy
        and built a boat using a two-part (aliphatic acid-hardened, I think)
        glue. The article was in Wooden Boat some years ago.

        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > builders,
        >
        > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior grade
        > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???
        >
        > my last boat was built with 1 part poly-urethane glue ( pl premium
        > construction )which let go after about 2 years around the chines,
        > mostly i suspect, because 1- i took out the dry wall screws after
        the
        > glue dried and 2- i didnt fully cover the hull with fiberglass
        inside
        > and out (which i will do this time.)
        >
        > im doing a small boat - a double Brick 4x16.
        >
        > thanks,
        >
        > bill in NC
        >
      • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
        I will second that on the TB-III TB-II and the Gorila glue types are only water RESISTANT in the fine print. Glues like PL don t soak in as well and so they
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 6 9:51 AM
          I will second that on the TB-III TB-II and the Gorila glue types are
          only water RESISTANT in the fine print. Glues like PL don't soak in
          as well and so they only surface glue. If you are going to glass
          afterwards why not use the same precautions you use to glass to glue.
          Proper protection with nonfully cured epoxy like gloves and masks at
          all times though a pain saves the itch.

          Jon

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "fredschum" <fredschum@...> wrote:
          >
          > I think it was Fine Woodworking that did a comparative glue test a
          > few months ago and determined that Titebond III was the best,
          > slightly ahead of epoxy. It rated the polyurethane glue last. The
          > test did not include underwater exposure. However, Titebond is a
          > waterproof glue. Guzwell, of Trekka fame, became allergic to epoxy
          > and built a boat using a two-part (aliphatic acid-hardened, I
          think)
          > glue. The article was in Wooden Boat some years ago.
          >
          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > builders,
          > >
          > > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior grade
          > > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???
          > >
          > > my last boat was built with 1 part poly-urethane glue ( pl
          premium
          > > construction )which let go after about 2 years around the chines,
          > > mostly i suspect, because 1- i took out the dry wall screws after
          > the
          > > glue dried and 2- i didnt fully cover the hull with fiberglass
          > inside
          > > and out (which i will do this time.)
          > >
          > > im doing a small boat - a double Brick 4x16.
          > >
          > > thanks,
          > >
          > > bill in NC
          > >
          >
        • Bruce Hallman
          ... Excellent boats have been built for many centuries without epoxy. They used plenty of nails, screws, and caulking.
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 6 11:50 AM
            On 10/6/07, bill shamblin <bshamblin2002@...> wrote:

            > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior grade
            > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???

            Excellent boats have been built for many centuries without epoxy.
            They used plenty of nails, screws, and caulking.
          • Patrick Crockett
            ... Or trunnels and tar and oakum.
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 6 12:02 PM
              > Excellent boats have been built for many centuries without epoxy.
              > They used plenty of nails, screws, and caulking.
              Or trunnels and tar and oakum.
            • Charles Rouse
              ... wrote: That s bad luck with the expoxy. I use epoxy but John Welsford has a little discussion about glue here, http://tinyurl.com/2ueezj Resorcinol has
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 6 3:03 PM
                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@...>
                wrote:
                That's bad luck with the expoxy. I use epoxy but John Welsford has a
                little discussion about glue here,

                http://tinyurl.com/2ueezj

                Resorcinol has been used on boats, it requires that you learn how
                to use it. Jamestown Distributors might have it.

                Charles Rouse
                >
                > builders,
                >
                > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior grade
                > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???
                >
                > my last boat was built with 1 part poly-urethane glue ( pl premium
                > construction )which let go after about 2 years around the chines,
                > mostly i suspect, because 1- i took out the dry wall screws after
                the
                > glue dried and 2- i didnt fully cover the hull with fiberglass
                inside
                > and out (which i will do this time.)
                >
                > im doing a small boat - a double Brick 4x16.
                >
                > thanks,
                >
                > bill in NC
                >
              • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                No disrespect for John but the fine print on the back of Gorila glue here in the us says it is water resistant. Jon ... a ... premium
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 6 6:18 PM
                  No disrespect for John but the fine print on the back of Gorila glue
                  here in the us says it is water resistant.

                  Jon

                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Rouse" <zavala@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@>
                  > wrote:
                  > That's bad luck with the expoxy. I use epoxy but John Welsford has
                  a
                  > little discussion about glue here,
                  >
                  > http://tinyurl.com/2ueezj
                  >
                  > Resorcinol has been used on boats, it requires that you learn how
                  > to use it. Jamestown Distributors might have it.
                  >
                  > Charles Rouse
                  > >
                  > > builders,
                  > >
                  > > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior grade
                  > > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???
                  > >
                  > > my last boat was built with 1 part poly-urethane glue ( pl
                  premium
                  > > construction )which let go after about 2 years around the chines,
                  > > mostly i suspect, because 1- i took out the dry wall screws after
                  > the
                  > > glue dried and 2- i didnt fully cover the hull with fiberglass
                  > inside
                  > > and out (which i will do this time.)
                  > >
                  > > im doing a small boat - a double Brick 4x16.
                  > >
                  > > thanks,
                  > >
                  > > bill in NC
                  > >
                  >
                • Kenneth Grome
                  Gorilla glue has been reported to fail in more than one boating forum. Apparently it does not live up to the hype. Sincerely, Ken Grome Bagacay Boatworks
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 6 7:21 PM
                    Gorilla glue has been reported to fail in more than one boating forum.
                    Apparently it does not live up to the hype.

                    Sincerely,
                    Ken Grome
                    Bagacay Boatworks
                    www.bagacayboatworks.com




                    > No disrespect for John but the fine print
                    > on the back of Gorila glue here in the us
                    > says it is water resistant.
                  • David
                    I m with Jon & Kenneth. My personal experience with Gorilla Glue & it s clones has not been good. I ve largely stopped using it. The resorcinol is a good
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 6 9:28 PM
                      I'm with Jon & Kenneth. My personal experience with Gorilla Glue &
                      it's clones has not been good. I've largely stopped using it.

                      The resorcinol is a good option, if you're willing & able to take the
                      care necessary to achieve close-tolerance joinery, and allow for
                      sufficient clamping pressure. It has been used for boatbuilding &
                      airplane construction for many decades, and was the adhesive of choice
                      prior to the widespread availability of epoxies.

                      Epoxy is just as good, if not better as an adhesive. The added
                      advantages are: sloppy, quicker joints are fine - even good; minimum
                      clamping is required; it also serves as a high-build, water-resistant
                      primer coat for painted or varnished finishes - in fact, a variety of
                      available additives make it useful for a wide range of tasks.

                      Seems like you have three options: use epoxy, but take extraordinary
                      steps to protect yourself from exposure (seems doable, but watch for
                      symptoms!); switch to resorcinol glue, and live with it's limitations
                      (also doable); switch to traditional boatbuilding techniques (nothing
                      wrong with that, but is slower with more of a learning curve).

                      Cheers,
                      David Graybeal
                      Portland, OR

                      "Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours" -- Richard
                      Bach

                      *************

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Gorilla glue has been reported to fail in more than one boating forum.
                      > Apparently it does not live up to the hype.
                      >
                      > Sincerely,
                      > Ken Grome
                      > Bagacay Boatworks
                      > www.bagacayboatworks.com
                    • Robb
                      Hmmmmmm......this is the first time I ve ever heard anything negative about gorilla glue. I ve built numerous small boats like bolger skimmers and other
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 6 11:04 PM
                        Hmmmmmm......this is the first time I've ever heard anything negative about gorilla glue. I've built numerous small boats like bolger skimmers and other similar 2 sheet boats.....sometimes without even taping the chines at all and I've NEVER had any problem whatsoever. Dave Zeiger who designed the trilobyte boats even recommends it OVER epoxy for construction. For years I refused to use anything other than epoxy but I've finally come off my addiction and building boats is MUCH more enjoyable and faster with the other glues. on an important boat I do glass the bottom but it certainly isn't out of fear of the gorilla glue failing. I stongly question the validity of any report of it failing. My latest skimmer is on year 7 of its life and it has been outside 99% of the time. I am currently using it on all of the internal framing on my Robbsboat. Do a good enough job on your cutting so that you don't have any cracks and gorilla glue won't come apart. Robb


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: David
                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 12:28 AM
                        Subject: [bolger] Re: alternative boat glue for epoxy allergy???


                        I'm with Jon & Kenneth. My personal experience with Gorilla Glue &
                        it's clones has not been good. I've largely stopped using it.

                        The resorcinol is a good option, if you're willing & able to take the
                        care necessary to achieve close-tolerance joinery, and allow for
                        sufficient clamping pressure. It has been used for boatbuilding &
                        airplane construction for many decades, and was the adhesive of choice
                        prior to the widespread availability of epoxies.

                        Epoxy is just as good, if not better as an adhesive. The added
                        advantages are: sloppy, quicker joints are fine - even good; minimum
                        clamping is required; it also serves as a high-build, water-resistant
                        primer coat for painted or varnished finishes - in fact, a variety of
                        available additives make it useful for a wide range of tasks.

                        Seems like you have three options: use epoxy, but take extraordinary
                        steps to protect yourself from exposure (seems doable, but watch for
                        symptoms!); switch to resorcinol glue, and live with it's limitations
                        (also doable); switch to traditional boatbuilding techniques (nothing
                        wrong with that, but is slower with more of a learning curve).

                        Cheers,
                        David Graybeal
                        Portland, OR

                        "Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours" -- Richard
                        Bach

                        *************

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Gorilla glue has been reported to fail in more than one boating forum.
                        > Apparently it does not live up to the hype.
                        >
                        > Sincerely,
                        > Ken Grome
                        > Bagacay Boatworks
                        > www.bagacayboatworks.com





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                        Glad to see you havn t had problems but my info came frol the Wood Products Testing Lab. Good thing you use tight fits the stringth drops quickly when it fomes
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 6 11:12 PM
                          Glad to see you havn't had problems but my info came frol the Wood
                          Products Testing Lab. Good thing you use tight fits the stringth
                          drops quickly when it fomes to fill gaps. Read the small print on the
                          back it says WATER RESISTANT not proof.

                          Jon

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Robb" <Robb@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hmmmmmm......this is the first time I've ever heard anything
                          negative about gorilla glue. I've built numerous small boats like
                          bolger skimmers and other similar 2 sheet boats.....sometimes without
                          even taping the chines at all and I've NEVER had any problem
                          whatsoever. Dave Zeiger who designed the trilobyte boats even
                          recommends it OVER epoxy for construction. For years I refused to
                          use anything other than epoxy but I've finally come off my addiction
                          and building boats is MUCH more enjoyable and faster with the other
                          glues. on an important boat I do glass the bottom but it certainly
                          isn't out of fear of the gorilla glue failing. I stongly question
                          the validity of any report of it failing. My latest skimmer is on
                          year 7 of its life and it has been outside 99% of the time. I am
                          currently using it on all of the internal framing on my Robbsboat.
                          Do a good enough job on your cutting so that you don't have any
                          cracks and gorilla glue won't come apart. Robb
                          >
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: David
                          > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 12:28 AM
                          > Subject: [bolger] Re: alternative boat glue for epoxy allergy???
                          >
                          >
                          > I'm with Jon & Kenneth. My personal experience with Gorilla Glue &
                          > it's clones has not been good. I've largely stopped using it.
                          >
                          > The resorcinol is a good option, if you're willing & able to take
                          the
                          > care necessary to achieve close-tolerance joinery, and allow for
                          > sufficient clamping pressure. It has been used for boatbuilding &
                          > airplane construction for many decades, and was the adhesive of
                          choice
                          > prior to the widespread availability of epoxies.
                          >
                          > Epoxy is just as good, if not better as an adhesive. The added
                          > advantages are: sloppy, quicker joints are fine - even good;
                          minimum
                          > clamping is required; it also serves as a high-build, water-
                          resistant
                          > primer coat for painted or varnished finishes - in fact, a
                          variety of
                          > available additives make it useful for a wide range of tasks.
                          >
                          > Seems like you have three options: use epoxy, but take
                          extraordinary
                          > steps to protect yourself from exposure (seems doable, but watch
                          for
                          > symptoms!); switch to resorcinol glue, and live with it's
                          limitations
                          > (also doable); switch to traditional boatbuilding techniques
                          (nothing
                          > wrong with that, but is slower with more of a learning curve).
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          > David Graybeal
                          > Portland, OR
                          >
                          > "Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours" --
                          Richard
                          > Bach
                          >
                          > *************
                          >
                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@>
                          wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Gorilla glue has been reported to fail in more than one boating
                          forum.
                          > > Apparently it does not live up to the hype.
                          > >
                          > > Sincerely,
                          > > Ken Grome
                          > > Bagacay Boatworks
                          > > www.bagacayboatworks.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • David
                          It was Fine WW, I believe. They tested both good joints and sloppy joints. The Titebond III did, indeed, come out ahead of the tested group - which
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 7 12:11 AM
                            It was Fine WW, I believe. They tested both "good" joints and "sloppy"
                            joints. The Titebond III did, indeed, come out ahead of the tested
                            group - which included Gorilla Glue, but did not, IIRC, include either
                            resorcinol or plastic resin glue. I might also note that the epoxy
                            tested was not one I was experienced with. I'm not sure it was
                            representative of those typically used for boatbuilding, but probably
                            it was close enough.

                            I like Titebond III, and - as a professional woodworker - have been
                            using it increasingly. However, if I remember the article correctly,
                            they did not address the issues of repairability, or reversibility,
                            neither of which are good traits for T III.

                            Repairability is whether an adhesive will glue to itself. Many folks
                            say T III won't. My experience is not as bad as some of the stories
                            offered, but it seems a bit iffy. I've not enough experience yet to
                            say for sure what factors come into play. My sense is that the more
                            fresh wood fibre exposed the better and the earlier in the cure the
                            better. Epoxy and resorcinol have good repairability. Gorilla glue -
                            also not trustworthy.

                            Reversibility is whether a cured/dried glued joint can be undone. For
                            example, antique furniture was usually assembled with some sort of
                            hide glue. Hide glue can be reversed with the application of heat -
                            esp. moist heat. A conservator of fine antiques would never do repairs
                            using epoxy, or PVA glue (like standard Titebond), or modifed PVA
                            (like T III). Partly, that's for historical accuracy, and partly it's
                            for the sake of being able to make future repairs without damaging a
                            valuable piece of furniture. The closest any of the typical marine
                            adhesives comes to reversibility is epoxy. If heated to maybe 160 -
                            200 degrees F(depending on the brand/formulation), it will begin to
                            reliquify.

                            As for my distrust of Gorilla Glue, it may just be my impatient, surly
                            side kicking in when faced with some new "miracle goo". I tried it on
                            several small projects for my own use. I made some test panels. Some
                            panels I left out to weather, some I did some destruction testing on,
                            and some I did the boil test on. I was not impressed with the results.
                            I've also seen a few reliable sources echo my concerns (such as the
                            Fine WW test mentioned above). However, several of my 'Ol Coot buddies
                            have built their boats primarily with GG. None have fallen apart yet,
                            and neither has yours. My cynical self says, talk to me 10 years from
                            now. Talk to me after your boatcover leaks and she sits with a bilge
                            full of water for months. Talk to me after you go through some heavy
                            weather, and she gets tossed and beat beyond what you ever expected
                            her to. I hope those reports will be good, but I'm a bit skeptical.

                            Cheers & Smears,
                            David Graybeal
                            Portland, OR

                            "These are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I've got
                            others" -- Groucho Marx

                            **************

                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "fredschum" <fredschum@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I think it was Fine Woodworking that did a comparative glue test a
                            > few months ago and determined that Titebond III was the best,
                            > slightly ahead of epoxy. It rated the polyurethane glue last. The
                            > test did not include underwater exposure. However, Titebond is a
                            > waterproof glue. Guzwell, of Trekka fame, became allergic to epoxy
                            > and built a boat using a two-part (aliphatic acid-hardened, I think)
                            > glue. The article was in Wooden Boat some years ago.
                            >
                            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > builders,
                            > >
                            > > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior grade
                            > > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???
                            > >
                            > > my last boat was built with 1 part poly-urethane glue ( pl premium
                            > > construction )which let go after about 2 years around the chines,
                            > > mostly i suspect, because 1- i took out the dry wall screws after
                            > the
                            > > glue dried and 2- i didnt fully cover the hull with fiberglass
                            > inside
                            > > and out (which i will do this time.)
                            > >
                            > > im doing a small boat - a double Brick 4x16.
                            > >
                            > > thanks,
                            > >
                            > > bill in NC
                            > >
                            >
                          • bill shamblin
                            thanks everyone! this is the information i needed. bill in nc ... and sloppy ... either ... probably ... correctly, ... folks ... glue - ... For ... repairs
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 7 4:22 AM
                              thanks everyone! this is the information i needed.

                              bill in nc



                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > It was Fine WW, I believe. They tested both "good" joints
                              and "sloppy"
                              > joints. The Titebond III did, indeed, come out ahead of the tested
                              > group - which included Gorilla Glue, but did not, IIRC, include
                              either
                              > resorcinol or plastic resin glue. I might also note that the epoxy
                              > tested was not one I was experienced with. I'm not sure it was
                              > representative of those typically used for boatbuilding, but
                              probably
                              > it was close enough.
                              >
                              > I like Titebond III, and - as a professional woodworker - have been
                              > using it increasingly. However, if I remember the article
                              correctly,
                              > they did not address the issues of repairability, or reversibility,
                              > neither of which are good traits for T III.
                              >
                              > Repairability is whether an adhesive will glue to itself. Many
                              folks
                              > say T III won't. My experience is not as bad as some of the stories
                              > offered, but it seems a bit iffy. I've not enough experience yet to
                              > say for sure what factors come into play. My sense is that the more
                              > fresh wood fibre exposed the better and the earlier in the cure the
                              > better. Epoxy and resorcinol have good repairability. Gorilla
                              glue -
                              > also not trustworthy.
                              >
                              > Reversibility is whether a cured/dried glued joint can be undone.
                              For
                              > example, antique furniture was usually assembled with some sort of
                              > hide glue. Hide glue can be reversed with the application of heat -
                              > esp. moist heat. A conservator of fine antiques would never do
                              repairs
                              > using epoxy, or PVA glue (like standard Titebond), or modifed PVA
                              > (like T III). Partly, that's for historical accuracy, and partly
                              it's
                              > for the sake of being able to make future repairs without damaging
                              a
                              > valuable piece of furniture. The closest any of the typical marine
                              > adhesives comes to reversibility is epoxy. If heated to maybe 160 -
                              > 200 degrees F(depending on the brand/formulation), it will begin to
                              > reliquify.
                              >
                              > As for my distrust of Gorilla Glue, it may just be my impatient,
                              surly
                              > side kicking in when faced with some new "miracle goo". I tried it
                              on
                              > several small projects for my own use. I made some test panels.
                              Some
                              > panels I left out to weather, some I did some destruction testing
                              on,
                              > and some I did the boil test on. I was not impressed with the
                              results.
                              > I've also seen a few reliable sources echo my concerns (such as the
                              > Fine WW test mentioned above). However, several of my 'Ol Coot
                              buddies
                              > have built their boats primarily with GG. None have fallen apart
                              yet,
                              > and neither has yours. My cynical self says, talk to me 10 years
                              from
                              > now. Talk to me after your boatcover leaks and she sits with a
                              bilge
                              > full of water for months. Talk to me after you go through some
                              heavy
                              > weather, and she gets tossed and beat beyond what you ever expected
                              > her to. I hope those reports will be good, but I'm a bit skeptical.
                              >
                              > Cheers & Smears,
                              > David Graybeal
                              > Portland, OR
                              >
                              > "These are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I've
                              got
                              > others" -- Groucho Marx
                              >
                              > **************
                              >
                              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "fredschum" <fredschum@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I think it was Fine Woodworking that did a comparative glue test
                              a
                              > > few months ago and determined that Titebond III was the best,
                              > > slightly ahead of epoxy. It rated the polyurethane glue last.
                              The
                              > > test did not include underwater exposure. However, Titebond is a
                              > > waterproof glue. Guzwell, of Trekka fame, became allergic to
                              epoxy
                              > > and built a boat using a two-part (aliphatic acid-hardened, I
                              think)
                              > > glue. The article was in Wooden Boat some years ago.
                              > >
                              > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > builders,
                              > > >
                              > > > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior
                              grade
                              > > > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???
                              > > >
                              > > > my last boat was built with 1 part poly-urethane glue ( pl
                              premium
                              > > > construction )which let go after about 2 years around the
                              chines,
                              > > > mostly i suspect, because 1- i took out the dry wall screws
                              after
                              > > the
                              > > > glue dried and 2- i didnt fully cover the hull with fiberglass
                              > > inside
                              > > > and out (which i will do this time.)
                              > > >
                              > > > im doing a small boat - a double Brick 4x16.
                              > > >
                              > > > thanks,
                              > > >
                              > > > bill in NC
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • Bob Slimak
                              One more post on resorcinol and epoxy I first used epoxy as a child around 1959 or 60, thereabouts. It was not on the market to everyone, but my Dad was the
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 7 10:50 AM
                                One more post on resorcinol and epoxy

                                I first used epoxy as a child around 1959 or 60, thereabouts. It was
                                not on the market to everyone, but my Dad was the supervisor of the
                                research machine shop for Bemis company, making prototype machines
                                for the plastic industry. I also had plastic bags when no one know
                                what they were. Who knew what a mess for the environment plastics
                                would turn out to be! Anyway, decades later when I was building my
                                Bruce Roberts Spray, and had an both epoxy joints fail on 7 inch high
                                in a place where they were subjuect to high shear loads, I asked him
                                about it and he said the lab guys say epoxy is great except for
                                shear. I'm sure epoxy has improved a lot since then, but not wanting
                                to take a chance on my wood mast I went back to resorcinol. The
                                reason for this was that, before WWII my Dad worked as a machinest
                                for General Dairy. They made the huge blades for the churns from
                                oak, lamimated with resorcinal into a large plank, about 6" X 12" I
                                seem to recall. Then they put this laminated piece into a huge
                                steambox where it was twisted to make the churn blades, paddles,
                                whatever they called them. Any glue that can survive that can be
                                trusted.
                                I, of course, do use epoxy because I am too impatient to try to make
                                the perfect joints necessary when I don't have thousands of dollars
                                worth of joiners, planers, etc. to make such joints. Remember,
                                before epoxy a GOOD glue joint was expected to be .oo5 inches,
                                something not possible with my $89.95 table saw from Menards:(

                                Bob

                                PS - My Spray is still around the area, and the mast is still good
                                after 23 years.

                                -- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > thanks everyone! this is the information i needed.
                                >
                                > bill in nc
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > It was Fine WW, I believe. They tested both "good" joints
                                > and "sloppy"
                                > > joints. The Titebond III did, indeed, come out ahead of the tested
                                > > group - which included Gorilla Glue, but did not, IIRC, include
                                > either
                                > > resorcinol or plastic resin glue. I might also note that the epoxy
                                > > tested was not one I was experienced with. I'm not sure it was
                                > > representative of those typically used for boatbuilding, but
                                > probably
                                > > it was close enough.
                                > >
                                > > I like Titebond III, and - as a professional woodworker - have
                                been
                                > > using it increasingly. However, if I remember the article
                                > correctly,
                                > > they did not address the issues of repairability, or
                                reversibility,
                                > > neither of which are good traits for T III.
                                > >
                                > > Repairability is whether an adhesive will glue to itself. Many
                                > folks
                                > > say T III won't. My experience is not as bad as some of the
                                stories
                                > > offered, but it seems a bit iffy. I've not enough experience yet
                                to
                                > > say for sure what factors come into play. My sense is that the
                                more
                                > > fresh wood fibre exposed the better and the earlier in the cure
                                the
                                > > better. Epoxy and resorcinol have good repairability. Gorilla
                                > glue -
                                > > also not trustworthy.
                                > >
                                > > Reversibility is whether a cured/dried glued joint can be undone.
                                > For
                                > > example, antique furniture was usually assembled with some sort of
                                > > hide glue. Hide glue can be reversed with the application of
                                heat -
                                > > esp. moist heat. A conservator of fine antiques would never do
                                > repairs
                                > > using epoxy, or PVA glue (like standard Titebond), or modifed PVA
                                > > (like T III). Partly, that's for historical accuracy, and partly
                                > it's
                                > > for the sake of being able to make future repairs without
                                damaging
                                > a
                                > > valuable piece of furniture. The closest any of the typical marine
                                > > adhesives comes to reversibility is epoxy. If heated to maybe
                                160 -
                                > > 200 degrees F(depending on the brand/formulation), it will begin
                                to
                                > > reliquify.
                                > >
                                > > As for my distrust of Gorilla Glue, it may just be my impatient,
                                > surly
                                > > side kicking in when faced with some new "miracle goo". I tried
                                it
                                > on
                                > > several small projects for my own use. I made some test panels.
                                > Some
                                > > panels I left out to weather, some I did some destruction testing
                                > on,
                                > > and some I did the boil test on. I was not impressed with the
                                > results.
                                > > I've also seen a few reliable sources echo my concerns (such as
                                the
                                > > Fine WW test mentioned above). However, several of my 'Ol Coot
                                > buddies
                                > > have built their boats primarily with GG. None have fallen apart
                                > yet,
                                > > and neither has yours. My cynical self says, talk to me 10 years
                                > from
                                > > now. Talk to me after your boatcover leaks and she sits with a
                                > bilge
                                > > full of water for months. Talk to me after you go through some
                                > heavy
                                > > weather, and she gets tossed and beat beyond what you ever
                                expected
                                > > her to. I hope those reports will be good, but I'm a bit
                                skeptical.
                                > >
                                > > Cheers & Smears,
                                > > David Graybeal
                                > > Portland, OR
                                > >
                                > > "These are my principles, and if you don't like them... well,
                                I've
                                > got
                                > > others" -- Groucho Marx
                                > >
                                > > **************
                                > >
                                > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "fredschum" <fredschum@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > I think it was Fine Woodworking that did a comparative glue
                                test
                                > a
                                > > > few months ago and determined that Titebond III was the best,
                                > > > slightly ahead of epoxy. It rated the polyurethane glue last.
                                > The
                                > > > test did not include underwater exposure. However, Titebond is
                                a
                                > > > waterproof glue. Guzwell, of Trekka fame, became allergic to
                                > epoxy
                                > > > and built a boat using a two-part (aliphatic acid-hardened, I
                                > think)
                                > > > glue. The article was in Wooden Boat some years ago.
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@>
                                > > > wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > builders,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior
                                > grade
                                > > > > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???
                                > > > >
                                > > > > my last boat was built with 1 part poly-urethane glue ( pl
                                > premium
                                > > > > construction )which let go after about 2 years around the
                                > chines,
                                > > > > mostly i suspect, because 1- i took out the dry wall screws
                                > after
                                > > > the
                                > > > > glue dried and 2- i didnt fully cover the hull with
                                fiberglass
                                > > > inside
                                > > > > and out (which i will do this time.)
                                > > > >
                                > > > > im doing a small boat - a double Brick 4x16.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > thanks,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > bill in NC
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                                Proper prep of all woods before gluing is sanding. This is the one mistake most people make the other is to not coat both surfaces befor putting tigather. The
                                Message 15 of 17 , Oct 7 11:40 AM
                                  Proper prep of all woods before gluing is sanding. This is the one
                                  mistake most people make the other is to not coat both surfaces befor
                                  putting tigather. The first causes poor bond surface the second glue
                                  starvation. Both mistakes lead to week glue joints in area of stress.
                                  Proper prep helps prevent shear failures. Dried woods be it kilm
                                  dried or seasond have closed cells on the surface sanding opens it up
                                  for the glue to soak in for better bond.


                                  Jon

                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Slimak" <otter55806@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > One more post on resorcinol and epoxy
                                  >
                                  > I first used epoxy as a child around 1959 or 60, thereabouts. It
                                  was
                                  > not on the market to everyone, but my Dad was the supervisor of the
                                  > research machine shop for Bemis company, making prototype machines
                                  > for the plastic industry. I also had plastic bags when no one know
                                  > what they were. Who knew what a mess for the environment plastics
                                  > would turn out to be! Anyway, decades later when I was building my
                                  > Bruce Roberts Spray, and had an both epoxy joints fail on 7 inch
                                  high
                                  > in a place where they were subjuect to high shear loads, I asked
                                  him
                                  > about it and he said the lab guys say epoxy is great except for
                                  > shear. I'm sure epoxy has improved a lot since then, but not
                                  wanting
                                  > to take a chance on my wood mast I went back to resorcinol. The
                                  > reason for this was that, before WWII my Dad worked as a machinest
                                  > for General Dairy. They made the huge blades for the churns from
                                  > oak, lamimated with resorcinal into a large plank, about 6" X 12" I
                                  > seem to recall. Then they put this laminated piece into a huge
                                  > steambox where it was twisted to make the churn blades, paddles,
                                  > whatever they called them. Any glue that can survive that can be
                                  > trusted.
                                  > I, of course, do use epoxy because I am too impatient to try to
                                  make
                                  > the perfect joints necessary when I don't have thousands of dollars
                                  > worth of joiners, planers, etc. to make such joints. Remember,
                                  > before epoxy a GOOD glue joint was expected to be .oo5 inches,
                                  > something not possible with my $89.95 table saw from Menards:(
                                  >
                                  > Bob
                                  >
                                  > PS - My Spray is still around the area, and the mast is still good
                                  > after 23 years.
                                  >
                                  > -- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin" <bshamblin2002@>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > thanks everyone! this is the information i needed.
                                  > >
                                  > > bill in nc
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > It was Fine WW, I believe. They tested both "good" joints
                                  > > and "sloppy"
                                  > > > joints. The Titebond III did, indeed, come out ahead of the
                                  tested
                                  > > > group - which included Gorilla Glue, but did not, IIRC, include
                                  > > either
                                  > > > resorcinol or plastic resin glue. I might also note that the
                                  epoxy
                                  > > > tested was not one I was experienced with. I'm not sure it was
                                  > > > representative of those typically used for boatbuilding, but
                                  > > probably
                                  > > > it was close enough.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I like Titebond III, and - as a professional woodworker - have
                                  > been
                                  > > > using it increasingly. However, if I remember the article
                                  > > correctly,
                                  > > > they did not address the issues of repairability, or
                                  > reversibility,
                                  > > > neither of which are good traits for T III.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Repairability is whether an adhesive will glue to itself. Many
                                  > > folks
                                  > > > say T III won't. My experience is not as bad as some of the
                                  > stories
                                  > > > offered, but it seems a bit iffy. I've not enough experience
                                  yet
                                  > to
                                  > > > say for sure what factors come into play. My sense is that the
                                  > more
                                  > > > fresh wood fibre exposed the better and the earlier in the cure
                                  > the
                                  > > > better. Epoxy and resorcinol have good repairability. Gorilla
                                  > > glue -
                                  > > > also not trustworthy.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Reversibility is whether a cured/dried glued joint can be
                                  undone.
                                  > > For
                                  > > > example, antique furniture was usually assembled with some sort
                                  of
                                  > > > hide glue. Hide glue can be reversed with the application of
                                  > heat -
                                  > > > esp. moist heat. A conservator of fine antiques would never do
                                  > > repairs
                                  > > > using epoxy, or PVA glue (like standard Titebond), or modifed
                                  PVA
                                  > > > (like T III). Partly, that's for historical accuracy, and
                                  partly
                                  > > it's
                                  > > > for the sake of being able to make future repairs without
                                  > damaging
                                  > > a
                                  > > > valuable piece of furniture. The closest any of the typical
                                  marine
                                  > > > adhesives comes to reversibility is epoxy. If heated to maybe
                                  > 160 -
                                  > > > 200 degrees F(depending on the brand/formulation), it will
                                  begin
                                  > to
                                  > > > reliquify.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > As for my distrust of Gorilla Glue, it may just be my
                                  impatient,
                                  > > surly
                                  > > > side kicking in when faced with some new "miracle goo". I tried
                                  > it
                                  > > on
                                  > > > several small projects for my own use. I made some test panels.
                                  > > Some
                                  > > > panels I left out to weather, some I did some destruction
                                  testing
                                  > > on,
                                  > > > and some I did the boil test on. I was not impressed with the
                                  > > results.
                                  > > > I've also seen a few reliable sources echo my concerns (such as
                                  > the
                                  > > > Fine WW test mentioned above). However, several of my 'Ol Coot
                                  > > buddies
                                  > > > have built their boats primarily with GG. None have fallen
                                  apart
                                  > > yet,
                                  > > > and neither has yours. My cynical self says, talk to me 10
                                  years
                                  > > from
                                  > > > now. Talk to me after your boatcover leaks and she sits with a
                                  > > bilge
                                  > > > full of water for months. Talk to me after you go through some
                                  > > heavy
                                  > > > weather, and she gets tossed and beat beyond what you ever
                                  > expected
                                  > > > her to. I hope those reports will be good, but I'm a bit
                                  > skeptical.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Cheers & Smears,
                                  > > > David Graybeal
                                  > > > Portland, OR
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "These are my principles, and if you don't like them... well,
                                  > I've
                                  > > got
                                  > > > others" -- Groucho Marx
                                  > > >
                                  > > > **************
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "fredschum" <fredschum@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I think it was Fine Woodworking that did a comparative glue
                                  > test
                                  > > a
                                  > > > > few months ago and determined that Titebond III was the best,
                                  > > > > slightly ahead of epoxy. It rated the polyurethane glue last.
                                  > > The
                                  > > > > test did not include underwater exposure. However, Titebond
                                  is
                                  > a
                                  > > > > waterproof glue. Guzwell, of Trekka fame, became allergic to
                                  > > epoxy
                                  > > > > and built a boat using a two-part (aliphatic acid-hardened, I
                                  > > think)
                                  > > > > glue. The article was in Wooden Boat some years ago.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "bill shamblin"
                                  <bshamblin2002@>
                                  > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > builders,
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > what is the best hull building glue ( for fir/pine/exterior
                                  > > grade
                                  > > > > > plywood ) for one who has developed epoxy allergy???
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > my last boat was built with 1 part poly-urethane glue ( pl
                                  > > premium
                                  > > > > > construction )which let go after about 2 years around the
                                  > > chines,
                                  > > > > > mostly i suspect, because 1- i took out the dry wall screws
                                  > > after
                                  > > > > the
                                  > > > > > glue dried and 2- i didnt fully cover the hull with
                                  > fiberglass
                                  > > > > inside
                                  > > > > > and out (which i will do this time.)
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > im doing a small boat - a double Brick 4x16.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > thanks,
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > bill in NC
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Bruce Hallman
                                  ... I used a (Gorilla Glue type) polyurethane glue on my Bolger Spur II, which is still holding up after a decade. Regardless, I have switched now entirely to
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Oct 7 12:05 PM
                                    On 10/6/07, Robb <Robb@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hmmmmmm......this is the first time I've ever heard anything negative about gorilla glue.

                                    I used a (Gorilla Glue type) polyurethane glue on my Bolger Spur II,
                                    which is still holding up after a decade. Regardless, I have switched
                                    now entirely to epoxy glue because it is so excellent and cheap. I
                                    use gloves and entirely avoid skin contact, and work with good
                                    ventilation in my shop (one wall is missing!)

                                    There is one condition where Gorilla Glue is much superior to epoxy:
                                    that is when working outdoors in the rain, and/or with 'green' wet
                                    wood.
                                  • ANDREW AIREY
                                    Or,in the case of the replica Cuckoo Chesterfield canal narrowboat that the society will be constructing in about 12 months time(we re waiting for the wood
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Oct 7 1:55 PM
                                      Or,in the case of the replica 'Cuckoo' Chesterfield
                                      canal narrowboat that the society will be constructing
                                      in about 12 months time(we're waiting for the wood to
                                      season),turpentine,boiled linseed oil and horse
                                      manure.The carpenter who will be building the 70ft
                                      boat specified grain,not grass fed horses to provide
                                      the last item.Incidentally,as far as I
                                      know,Chesterfield Cuckoos were the only narrow boats
                                      to be sailed.Leeboards were available but not
                                      generally used on the river Trent(the canal linked
                                      Chesterfield to the Trent)although in later years
                                      usual practise was to get a tow from one of the Trent
                                      tugs,as did the Humber keels.However they occasionally
                                      penetrated as far as the wash,which involved coastal
                                      sailing,and leeboards were used for that.Which makes
                                      me think that PCB should have specified detachable
                                      leeboards on Weston Martyr and not the bigeboard used
                                      cheers
                                      Andy Airey

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