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Re: Building a Long Dory

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  • adventures_in_astrophotography
    Hi Don, ... am ... and- ... Is ... and ... You ve read all the other posts by now and they all make good points. I would add that you might have to scarf the
    Message 1 of 23 , Oct 3 6:52 AM
      Hi Don,

      > Hi everyone. I just joined this group and this is my first post. I
      am
      > planning on building Bolger's long dory using plans from Payson's
      > latest book. I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can
      > answer. I am considering using inside chine logs instead of stitch-
      and-
      > tape. I have nothing against epoxy but I prefer to work with wood.
      Is
      > there a downside to doing this? I think I would have to spring the
      > logs into place after the sides were bent around the frames. Would
      > there be any impact on boat longevity, given reasonable storage
      and
      > maintenance?
      > Any other tips/suggestions before I get started?

      You've read all the other posts by now and they all make good
      points. I would add that you might have to scarf the chine logs on
      the boat in order to get a good fit at the stem and tombstone.
      However, it might be possible to fit the chine logs to the side
      panels, stem, and tombstone prior to springing the sides around the
      frames, as long as you cut the stem and tombstone side bevels
      accurately first. The bottom (and top) bevel on the chine logs
      should be constant, or close enough not to matter.

      If I were doing it again, I don't think I'd use a chine log on this
      design. The side flare is considerable, which means fasteners on
      the bottom have to go into the log at a steep angle, too, requiring
      more countersink depth if you leave them in, or more goop to fill if
      you take them out. Are you going to tape the frames in or frame
      them with lumber also? If the latter, you're starting to add some
      real weight with both the logs and the frames, and I think that will
      hurt the boat's performance to some degree, especially if rowing
      solo. I'd keep it as light as possible - as drawn.

      Ultimately, I don't see any advantage to chine logs unless you just
      like how it looks - which is of course a perfectly justifiable
      reason to do it!

      Jon Kolb
      www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
    • Bruce Hallman
      ... And the looks I like about the stretched light dory is the exaggerated fan tail , which I don t think is just an affectation. That fan tail would be
      Message 2 of 23 , Oct 3 7:47 AM
        On 10/3/07, adventures_in_astrophotography <jon@...> wrote:

        > Ultimately, ...unless you just
        > like how it looks - which is of
        > course a perfectly justifiable
        > reason to do it!


        And 'the looks' I like about the stretched light dory is the
        exaggerated 'fan tail', which I don't think is just an affectation.
        That fan tail would be beneficial, I figure, navigating the surf where
        I live.

        http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1476751709&size=o

        This URL Shows my 'mind's eye' interpretation of the shape of a Long
        Dory with the fan tail pulled out some more. The panel layout of the
        sides fits nicely on 2 and 1/2 sheets of 1/4" plywood and the bottom
        cuts from a 12' x 2' piece of 1/2" plywood. If you were careful, I
        bet this 19ft 10in hull could weight less than 100 lbs.
      • adventures_in_astrophotography
        Hi Bruce, ... where ... Nicely done as usual. I ll wager that the original will be slightly faster than your rendering, thanks to the slightly longer
        Message 3 of 23 , Oct 3 12:17 PM
          Hi Bruce,

          > And 'the looks' I like about the stretched light dory is the
          > exaggerated 'fan tail', which I don't think is just an affectation.
          > That fan tail would be beneficial, I figure, navigating the surf
          where
          > I live.
          >
          > http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1476751709&size=o
          >
          > This URL Shows my 'mind's eye' interpretation of the shape of a Long
          > Dory with the fan tail pulled out some more. The panel layout of the
          > sides fits nicely on 2 and 1/2 sheets of 1/4" plywood and the bottom
          > cuts from a 12' x 2' piece of 1/2" plywood. If you were careful, I
          > bet this 19ft 10in hull could weight less than 100 lbs.

          Nicely done as usual. I'll wager that the original will be slightly
          faster than your rendering, thanks to the slightly longer waterline
          length, but I like the looks of your version, too.

          The bottom can be had from one sheet of 1/2" ply by laying out half of
          the bottom from each end of the sheet, offsetting the centerline of
          each piece by about 2'. Payson shows one way to do this in his book,
          offsetting the two halves diagonally, but it's easier to use the
          factory edges for the butt joint.

          If you make the seat bearers removable, or eliminate them altogether
          and sit on a box, and use lightweight wood for the gunwales, I don't
          doubt you can keep the weight under 100 lbs. I should probably weigh
          mine sometime, but it's certainly no trouble to row solo, as I have
          put up to ten non-stop miles under her a few times.

          It's good to see this design getting some interest thanks to Payson's
          book. I'll just add that if you make the gunwales two courses of 3/4"
          x 1-1/2" material as called for in the plans (perhaps without the
          fancy shaping and bronze half oval called for), the hull is so stiff
          that you can make the seat bearers removable, which has some
          advantages. For example, I was able to make a second set that only
          use the forward half of the hull, leaving the after half of the
          boat "open" for my dog to spread out. Payson shows the seat bearers
          as permanent structure and used only one strip of material for the
          gunwales. He also put the oarlocks on the inside of the hull, which
          will almost surely result in cross-handed rowing with 7' oars from all
          seating positions.

          Jon Kolb
          www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
        • Bruce Hallman
          ... Off line, here in physically in my hands, I have made some paper scale models of this exaggerated long dory and a per plans Gloucester Gull. Comparing
          Message 4 of 23 , Oct 3 2:19 PM
            On 10/3/07, adventures_in_astrophotography <jon@...> wrote:
            > I'll wager that the original will be slightly
            > faster than your rendering, thanks to the slightly longer waterline
            > length, but I like the looks of your version, too.

            Off line, here in physically in my hands, I have made some paper scale
            models of this exaggerated long dory and a 'per plans' Gloucester
            Gull. Comparing the two: Most notable I see that mine has more
            curvy-ness, in the bottom (as the GGull has nearly a flat bottom), and
            also in the sheerline. Speed isn't everything, (considering that
            boats are also 'sculptures' of a sort.) Big long swoopy sheerlines
            are pretty.

            What I am thinking of is a 'pretty' boat to launch through the surf
            near my home, and the higher ends from that exaggerated curvature, I
            think, might be an improvement. Plus, it needs to be light weight
            enough to drag a hundred yards from the car to the water.
          • Don
            Thanks for the information Jon. Your point about the chine logs being heavier is a good one. I intend to tape in the frames and am now thinking I will tape the
            Message 5 of 23 , Oct 3 7:39 PM
              Thanks for the information Jon. Your point about the chine logs being
              heavier is a good one. I intend to tape in the frames and am now
              thinking I will tape the chines as well.

              Here is another question for you: I have some sheets of very nice 3/8
              marine Meranti ply in my shop. Do you think this would work for the
              bottom if I added a couple of layers of 6-ox. glass/epoxy on the bottom?

              Also, did you use butt-blocks or scarphs on the bottom panel?

              Cheers,

              Don
            • adventures_in_astrophotography
              ... You need a boat-barrow! I need to get a good photo of mine and post it, but basically it s a lightweight, almost flimsy A-frame made from two 1x4 cedar
              Message 6 of 23 , Oct 4 5:45 AM
                ...snip...
                > Plus, it needs to be light weight
                > enough to drag a hundred yards from the car to the water.

                You need a boat-barrow! I need to get a good photo of mine and post
                it, but basically it's a lightweight, almost flimsy A-frame made from
                two 1x4 cedar boards with a couple of 1x4 cross pieces. At the apex
                is a plywood fork that mounts a single wheelbarrow wheel and tire. I
                use it to carry my Michalak Robote upside-down. Less than $50
                invested, much less if you use scrap lumber.

                The barrow with boat slides right into the back of the pickup, handle
                end forward, with the bow and wheel hanging out from the tailgate. I
                suppose it could even be car-topped. It's a 10-second operation to
                unstrap it, slide it out of the bed, and start heading for the water.
                100 yards is no trouble at all, and the big wheelbarrow tire handles
                any terrain I've encountered. I'm planning a slightly beefier two-
                wheel version for the Long Light Dory.

                Jon Kolb
                www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
              • adventures_in_astrophotography
                Hi Don, ... I don t know if the glass will add much, if any stiffness to the bottom panel, but it would sure add some abrasion resistance. If the bottom turns
                Message 7 of 23 , Oct 4 6:01 AM
                  Hi Don,

                  ...snip...
                  > Here is another question for you: I have some sheets of very nice 3/8
                  > marine Meranti ply in my shop. Do you think this would work for the
                  > bottom if I added a couple of layers of 6-ox. glass/epoxy on the
                  > bottom?

                  I don't know if the glass will add much, if any stiffness to the
                  bottom panel, but it would sure add some abrasion resistance. If the
                  bottom turns out to be a little spongy when you step into the boat,
                  you can always add a stiff shoe or a layer of doorskin to the bottom.
                  If it were me, I'd go for it.

                  > Also, did you use butt-blocks or scarphs on the bottom panel?

                  I used butt blocks. Fast, easy, only have to do one side of the
                  panel. If you scarf, you should probably make sure you can get both
                  ends of the bottom panel out of one sheet before you do it.

                  Jon Kolb
                  www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
                • Bruce Hallman
                  ... Perhaps, but it would need a really fat tire to deal with our sand dunes and the loose sand. And then, where to keep it while out on the water? Keeping
                  Message 8 of 23 , Oct 4 9:08 AM
                    On 10/4/07, adventures_in_astrophotography <jon@...> wrote:

                    > You need a boat-barrow!

                    Perhaps, but it would need a really fat tire to deal with our sand
                    dunes and the loose sand.

                    And then, where to keep it while out on the water? Keeping the boat
                    light weight, enough to drag it across the sand might be the simpler
                    option.
                  • Don Froese
                    Thanks again Jon. I faxed PCB and he also confirmed the 3/8 ply for the bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass. Cheers, Don
                    Message 9 of 23 , Oct 4 9:40 AM
                      Thanks again Jon. I faxed PCB and he also confirmed the 3/8 ply for the
                      bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass.



                      Cheers,



                      Don



                      ________________________________

                      From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of adventures_in_astrophotography
                      Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 6:01 AM
                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory



                      Hi Don,

                      ...snip...
                      > Here is another question for you: I have some sheets of very nice 3/8
                      > marine Meranti ply in my shop. Do you think this would work for the
                      > bottom if I added a couple of layers of 6-ox. glass/epoxy on the
                      > bottom?

                      I don't know if the glass will add much, if any stiffness to the
                      bottom panel, but it would sure add some abrasion resistance. If the
                      bottom turns out to be a little spongy when you step into the boat,
                      you can always add a stiff shoe or a layer of doorskin to the bottom.
                      If it were me, I'd go for it.

                      > Also, did you use butt-blocks or scarphs on the bottom panel?

                      I used butt blocks. Fast, easy, only have to do one side of the
                      panel. If you scarf, you should probably make sure you can get both
                      ends of the bottom panel out of one sheet before you do it.

                      Jon Kolb
                      www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Kristine Bennett
                      Don if you are going to use the Dory a lot, you may want to think about putting a layer of 6 or 8 oz. cloth and epoxy on the bottom inside. The hull bottom
                      Message 10 of 23 , Oct 4 8:18 PM
                        Don if you are going to use the Dory a lot, you may want to think about putting a layer of 6 or 8 oz. cloth and epoxy on the bottom inside. The hull bottom will hold up better then just being painted.

                        Blessings Krissie

                        Don Froese <don.froese@...> wrote: Thanks again Jon. I faxed PCB and he also confirmed the 3/8 ply for the
                        bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass.

                        Cheers,

                        Don

                        ________________________________








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                      • Don Froese
                        Thanks for the suggestion Krissie. I plan to coat the inside with a 2-part industrial epoxy paint. That stuff is very tough. Cheers, Don
                        Message 11 of 23 , Oct 5 8:53 AM
                          Thanks for the suggestion Krissie. I plan to coat the inside with a
                          2-part industrial epoxy paint. That stuff is very tough.



                          Cheers,



                          Don



                          ________________________________

                          From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                          Of Kristine Bennett
                          Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 8:18 PM
                          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory



                          Don if you are going to use the Dory a lot, you may want to think about
                          putting a layer of 6 or 8 oz. cloth and epoxy on the bottom inside. The
                          hull bottom will hold up better then just being painted.

                          Blessings Krissie

                          Don Froese <don.froese@... <mailto:don.froese%40kodak.com> >
                          wrote: Thanks again Jon. I faxed PCB and he also confirmed the 3/8 ply
                          for the
                          bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass.

                          Cheers,

                          Don

                          ________________________________


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                          Check out fun summer activities for kids.

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                        • dnjost
                          Don - I concur with Krissie here as well. Had I glassed the inside bottom of my Diablo, I probably would be out fishing right now. Rain water has that sits
                          Message 12 of 23 , Oct 5 10:23 AM
                            Don -
                            I concur with Krissie here as well. Had I glassed the inside bottom of
                            my Diablo, I probably would be out fishing right now. Rain water has
                            that sits on any painted surface somehow finds its way into the rest of
                            the plywood and gets trapped. Particularly if the other face is
                            glassed. I plan on glassing the bottom of the 18' skiff inside and out
                            for longterm protection from clam rakes, anchors, dog nails (the
                            labrador has meat hooks for claws), fishing tackle, crab pots, etc.

                            The boat is so darned heavy to begin with, that I doubt a gallon
                            of "goo on glass" is going to put the boat past the acceptable weight
                            limits.

                            Happy building.
                            Only two more hours until the sawdust starts flying.
                          • Kristine Bennett
                            Don the paint is only as good as what it s being put on. Seeing how wood is soft and flexible, the paint is going to crack and let water in the wood. I have a
                            Message 13 of 23 , Oct 5 7:53 PM
                              Don the paint is only as good as what it's being put on. Seeing how wood is soft and flexible, the paint is going to crack and let water in the wood.

                              I have a canopy for my truck that I sheathed with glass and epoxy on the front and top, and no spiders cracks. But on the sides I use Nexis cloth and epoxy and any place the side has been thumped there are spider cracks. I have had to patch a couple of places where the door skin had come apart. The Nexis cloth and epoxy are just over a 1/32nd of an inch. So I'll bet the epoxy paint will crack in time as well.

                              I helped a friend glass the inside of his hull panels for the hull bottom before they went on the hull. As I remember we used 7781 and it gave a nice flat surface to glue to. He was happy with the boat after 10 years of hard use.

                              Blessings Krissie


                              Don Froese <don.froese@...> wrote: Thanks for the suggestion Krissie. I plan to coat the inside with a
                              2-part industrial epoxy paint. That stuff is very tough.

                              Cheers,

                              Don

                              ________________________________








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                            • John and Kathy Trussell
                              I recently finished a Michalak stitch and glue version of the Hereshoff Row Boat. I decided to coat the interior with epoxy after the hull was assembled and
                              Message 14 of 23 , Oct 6 6:00 AM
                                I recently finished a Michalak stitch and glue version of the Hereshoff Row Boat. I decided to coat the interior with epoxy after the hull was assembled and this turned out to be a big mistake. For awhile, I thought of naming the boat "Drips, Runs, and Errors". There were lots of drips and rums which had to be sanded out in narrow, inconvenient locations, and I hate sanding! Next time, I will do as much coating as I can before assembly with the various pieces of the boat supported at a comfortable working level. Gravity is going to exert its force and I figure that it can work for me as well as against me. Any sanding to required can likewise be done at a comfortable height without contortion.

                                JohnT
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Kristine Bennett
                                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 10:53 PM
                                Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory


                                Don the paint is only as good as what it's being put on. Seeing how wood is soft and flexible, the paint is going to crack and let water in the wood.

                                I have a canopy for my truck that I sheathed with glass and epoxy on the front and top, and no spiders cracks. But on the sides I use Nexis cloth and epoxy and any place the side has been thumped there are spider cracks. I have had to patch a couple of places where the door skin had come apart. The Nexis cloth and epoxy are just over a 1/32nd of an inch. So I'll bet the epoxy paint will crack in time as well.

                                I helped a friend glass the inside of his hull panels for the hull bottom before they went on the hull. As I remember we used 7781 and it gave a nice flat surface to glue to. He was happy with the boat after 10 years of hard use.

                                Blessings Krissie

                                Don Froese <don.froese@...> wrote: Thanks for the suggestion Krissie. I plan to coat the inside with a
                                2-part industrial epoxy paint. That stuff is very tough.

                                Cheers,

                                Don

                                ________________________________


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                              • ANDREW AIREY
                                What about a single pack polyurethane varnish.My recollection of using some years ago was that it was tough and quite flexible cheers Andy Airey Send instant
                                Message 15 of 23 , Oct 7 3:04 PM
                                  What about a single pack polyurethane varnish.My
                                  recollection of using some years ago was that it was
                                  tough and quite flexible
                                  cheers
                                  Andy Airey

                                  Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                                • Don Froese
                                  Hi Andy: From my experience using single-pack polyurethane paint (not varnish), I have found that it does not stand up to abuse nearly as well as a 2-part
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Oct 8 8:53 AM
                                    Hi Andy:



                                    From my experience using single-pack polyurethane paint (not varnish), I
                                    have found that it does not stand up to abuse nearly as well as a 2-part
                                    epoxy paint. The polyurethane is much easier to apply and to get a nice
                                    finish with though. I used epoxy paint on the cockpit sole of my
                                    Bartender, where it gets lots of abuse. It seems to be holding up very
                                    well so far. Time will tell I guess.



                                    Cheers,



                                    Don



                                    ________________________________

                                    From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                    Of ANDREW AIREY
                                    Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 3:05 PM
                                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory



                                    What about a single pack polyurethane varnish.My
                                    recollection of using some years ago was that it was
                                    tough and quite flexible
                                    cheers
                                    Andy Airey

                                    Send instant messages to your online friends
                                    http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com <http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com>





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