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Re: Bolger Micro

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  • graeme19121984
    I d suggest that you run your suggestions by PB&F. They could quickly tell you what such a significant increase in the overall scantlings might do to the Micro
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 1, 2007
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      I'd suggest that you run your suggestions by PB&F. They could
      quickly tell you what such a significant increase in the overall
      scantlings might do to the Micro performance. I think they would be
      quite interested to hear of your wanting "a boat capable of pushing
      the Elements to the limit."


      It's not just that with the extra hull weight you will have a much
      reduced payload, it also may not be as stiff. 3/8" is good, and I'd
      guess up to 1" around the bottom would be alright.

      The Micro figures of 420lbs ballast, 875lbs empty weight, and 1650
      lbs displacement are for a boat constructed from 1/4" ply, and only
      painted. Jim Michalak has a rule-of-thumb somewhere that for 1/4"
      calculate 35lbs per plywood sheet finished, which comes very close
      to the specified Micro hull weight. For 3/8 it's 50lbs and for 1/2"
      it's 70lbs (or there abouts), and I think that may be only for boats
      sheathed on the bottom.

      Graeme



      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "endsley_t" <endsley_t@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thank you gentlemen for your responses. I asked 'per plan' for a
      > general idea of the price and time involved for a 'workboat' type
      > finish. Even though my goal is a 'Gold-Plater' finish on a strong
      > over-built boat.
      > I intend to use marine grade plywood throughout. 1" Hull, Transoms
      > and Sides (or would it be better to have 1" sides to about 5" above
      > where the Transoms meet the Hull and go 1/2" from there up?). 3/8"
      > Deck and Cockpit.
      > Everything exterior will be sheathed, everything interior will be
      epoxied.
      > I want a true keel with solid deadwood with the ballast through-
      bolted
      > into the Hull.
      > I also wish to beef-up the Deck (such as LESTAT) with three
      laminated
      > beams for deck support.
      > None of this is new and has been done on some existing Micros and
      Long
      > Micros.
      > In essence, I want a boat capable of pushing the Elements to the
      > limit. One that, if caught out in a squall, will get me home safe.
      > What are the disadvantages of the added plywood weight?
      > Any other modifications anyone would use (or did use) building
      their
      > Micro?
      >
      > If you were going to build today...
      > Micro or Long Micro?
      > Why?
      >
    • Peter Lenihan
      ... Keep this in mind; it will be the elements that are going to push you around, not the other way around ;-) Most well built boats will pretty much
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 2, 2007
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        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "endsley_t" <endsley_t@...> wrote:
        > In essence, I want a boat capable of pushing the Elements to the
        > limit. One that, if caught out in a squall, will get me home safe.

        Keep this in mind; it will be the elements that are going to push
        you around, not the other way around ;-)
        Most well built boats will pretty much accomplish the task of saving
        you.The master and/or crew however may not be able to take as much
        as the boat can handle.



        > What are the disadvantages of the added plywood weight?

        Added costs and added difficulty of bending 1" ply...unless you
        laminate 2 layers of 1/2"....but then there is the cost thing again.

        > Any other modifications anyone would use (or did use) building
        their
        > Micro?

        I used stainless tube for rudder post instead of the called for
        piece of wood.

        >
        > If you were going to build today...
        > Micro or Long Micro?


        Micro.

        > Why?

        'cause the first one worked so well :-)


        Sincerely,

        Peter Lenihan,ex owner/builder of LESTAT..............


        >
      • endsley_t
        I think maybe my comment about pushing the Elements to the limit may have been misconstrued. First off let me say I live in Gulfport, MS. For those who may
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 2, 2007
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          I think maybe my comment about "pushing the Elements to the limit" may
          have been misconstrued.
          First off let me say I live in Gulfport, MS. For those who may not be
          familiar with our geography, we have several barrier islands with
          three being a sort sail (5-7 miles offshore). The water depth between
          shore and these islands averages around 12 feet (deeper in some
          places, shallower in many!). Even though the islands give protection
          from the ocean, when the wind conditions are right and the tide is
          running in the opposite direction the seas get confused. Producing
          short, flat, irregular waves usually up to 3 feet (although I have
          seen 6).
          Of course a prudent sailor is aware of the weather and always keeps an
          eye out for deteriorating conditions, But what if I were on the open
          ocean side (South) of an island, which happened to be the Lee side,
          and was completely unaware of the Windward conditions until the
          fateful return trip?
          Per plan, would the Micro stand up to 3 foot seas?
          The real reason I wanted a 1" Hull was due to Katrina debris. Efforts
          are ongoing to remove more but it is a slow process. I worry that
          eventually I may run into something and I wanted the piece of mind
          that the Hull would stand up to it without puncture. Maybe I'm
          over-worrying...
          My intention for this boat is to sail with the family out to islands
          on the weekends. I just want to be able to get home in bad weather
          conditions if we are forced to by time constraints.
          Mr. Lenihan, I have seen pictures of your boat and I aspire to achieve
          the level of finish you did with LESTAT. A true Gold-Plater!
          I have read a lot of Mr. Bolger's comments pertaining to changing his
          designs and that is not what I intended. I just thought thicker was
          better...
          What about 1/2" Hull, 3/8" everywhere else? With sheathed exterior
          will it be beyond the reasonable towing capacity of a 6 cylinder?
          Or will the Micro with 1/4" plywood throughout and sheathed exterior
          be more than enough for my needs and intended uses?
        • Bruce Hallman
          ... I think so, but you would probably knock out a few teeth.
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 2, 2007
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            On 10/2/07, endsley_t <endsley_t@...> wrote:

            > Per plan, would the Micro stand up to 3 foot seas?

            I think so, but you would probably knock out a few teeth.
          • graeme19121984
            ... Wind against tide, 3ft chop? Yes. ... The outboard motor you mentioned earlier will get you home through some pretty hairy conditions :-) Your best
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 2, 2007
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "endsley_t" <endsley_t@...> wrote:

              > and was completely unaware of the Windward conditions until the
              > fateful return trip?
              > Per plan, would the Micro stand up to 3 foot seas?

              Wind against tide, 3ft chop? Yes.

              > on the weekends. I just want to be able to get home in bad weather
              > conditions if we are forced to by time constraints.

              The outboard motor you mentioned earlier will get you home through
              some pretty hairy conditions :-)

              Your best insurance is to include the flotation as designed :)
              .... many do not :-(

              (... perhaps for added security include a bailing pump too?)


              > What about 1/2" Hull, 3/8" everywhere else? With sheathed exterior
              > will it be beyond the reasonable towing capacity of a 6 cylinder?
              > Or will the Micro with 1/4" plywood throughout and sheathed
              exterior
              > be more than enough for my needs and intended uses?
              >

              I'd say 1/2" ought do for the bottom. 3/8" is good on the cockpit
              deck and the cabin top which also serves as a deck at times, and, I
              think, can do with the extra stiffness. 3/8" could do for the rest.

              If you've yet to order the plans from PB&F then briefly include your
              queries and concerns about the intended use with the order and
              payment - maybe a rough sketch or two to illustrate your thinking as
              well. I'm sure you'd receive a reply to that. They may just
              say "Nay" or "Yay" to any particular modification, but you will then
              know that with authority. They may make further recommendations to
              your own suggestions.

              Graeme
            • 9buck crowley
              Hi again,_ I don t know what a spec micro would hold up to but mine feels incredibly stout. Years ago I ran mine aground at full speed. This is no small feat
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 3, 2007
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                Hi again,_

                I don't know what a spec micro would hold up to but mine feels incredibly stout. Years ago I ran mine aground at full speed. This is no small feat in a boat that draws a little over a foot of water and I was sure after jumping the boat up on that ledge that she'd been ruined but the only damage I could find was a little curl of lead ( picture a mallards tail ) in the bottom of the keel. As far as seaworthiness mine has been outside the San Francisco Golden Gate in high winds and at least sixs foot seas. The boat was fine but like others have said the real limits are in the crews abilities to sail and endure the physical demands of bad weather.
                You mentioned you wanted to sail with your family and here I'll say we did so as a family of four. We cruised for tenor more days at a time in Mexico,in the pacific Northwest and in Maine but the boat is really best suited for two people even as a day sailor.
                Again I'll urge you to consider the Birdwatcher especially if your going to trailer your boat. A micro takes time to set up and because of the rocker of the bottom needs a steep ramp to float it off the trailer. With a micro your going to need a dinghy and a motor so add that into the equation when your comparing costs. There was an article on the birdwatcher in Woodenboat and if you haven't read it I would urge you to.
                I don't want to give the impression that I think the micro is not a good design I've sailed mine for ten years now and just spent two weeks cruising the Maine coast this summer with my wife. I just bought new sails for her and would find it hard to sell her but that said it's easy for me to see the merits of the Birdwatcher design.

                Buck__________________________> To: bolger@yahoogroups.com> From: endsley_t@...> Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 01:59:05 +0000> Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger Micro>> I think maybe my comment about "pushing the Elements to the limit" may> have been misconstrued.> First off let me say I live in Gulfport, MS. For those who may not be> familiar with our geography, we have several barrier islands with> three being a sort sail (5-7 miles offshore). The water depth between> shore and these islands averages around 12 feet (deeper in some> places, shallower in many!). Even though the islands give protection> from the ocean, when the wind conditions are right and the tide is> running in the opposite direction the seas get confused. Producing> short, flat, irregular waves usually up to 3 feet (although I have> seen 6).> Of course a prudent sailor is aware of the weather and always keeps an> eye out for deteriorating conditions, But what if I were on the open> ocean side (South) of an island, which happened to be the Lee side,> and was completely unaware of the Windward conditions until the> fateful return trip?> Per plan, would the Micro stand up to 3 foot seas?> The real reason I wanted a 1" Hull was due to Katrina debris. Efforts> are ongoing to remove more but it is a slow process. I worry that> eventually I may run into something and I wanted the piece of mind> that the Hull would stand up to it without puncture. Maybe I'm> over-worrying...> My intention for this boat is to sail with the family out to islands> on the weekends. I just want to be able to get home in bad weather> conditions if we are forced to by time constraints.> Mr. Lenihan, I have seen pictures of your boat and I aspire to achieve> the level of finish you did with LESTAT. A true Gold-Plater!> I have read a lot of Mr. Bolger's comments pertaining to changing his> designs and that is not what I intended. I just thought thicker was> better...> What about 1/2" Hull, 3/8" everywhere else? With sheathed exterior> will it be beyond the reasonable towing capacity of a 6 cylinder?> Or will the Micro with 1/4" plywood throughout and sheathed exterior> be more than enough for my needs and intended uses?>

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              • Bill
                I have seen two people (on the web) who have reinforced the hulls of their Micro. The Zeiger s sailed a lee-board Micro. After punching a hole in the hull,
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 3, 2007
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                  I have seen two people (on the web) who have reinforced the hulls of
                  their Micro. The Zeiger's sailed a lee-board Micro. "After punching
                  a hole in the hull, just above the waterline, we added 1/2" "doubling
                  plates" port and starboard, doubling the hull thickness to 1" to about
                  8" above the waterline. It gave us a bit of extra buoyancy."
                  (http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/zoon.htm#start).

                  The other Micro saw was being built in England, and had reinforced
                  sides. I don't know if they boat was ever launched.
                  http://www.pentode.demon.co.uk/bolger/

                  When I was contemplating my Long Micro (LM) these builders influenced
                  me a bit. I opted for .5 inch sides on my LM (which Bolger notes is
                  acceptable). I think anything greater than .5 inch sides would be
                  excessive. Why not build with 3/8 inch sides (the stock sides for an
                  LM)? Or you could make laminate/sandwich sides (two pieces of .25
                  inch ply with foam board sandwiched between. Plenty of buoyancy but
                  plenty complicated to make too.

                  Both Micro and LM are designed with enough floatation to sit high when
                  full of water. I think about the possibility of being holed in my LM,
                  but it doesn't concern me much. I'll have plenty of time to swear,
                  wring my hands, and then engineer some kind of crude fix. Or just
                  motor or sail towards land with a couple hundred gallons of water
                  sloshing below.

                  Have you read Roger Keyes' accounts of sailing his micro off the coast
                  of Australia? He's modified his micro quite a bit over the years, but
                  he still sails solo, and regularly heaves-to for the night and naps at
                  sea. He's been on some extensive journeys in his micro. This says a
                  lot to me. The boat is a rugged little vessel and she'll take more
                  abuse than the crew will.
                  You can read about Roger and his micro in the "files" section of
                  Bolger7. There are also some good photos of Australian Micros
                  (in Bolger 7 and one of the other Bolger groups)

                  Bill, in Ohio

                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "endsley_t" <endsley_t@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I think maybe my comment about "pushing the Elements to the limit" may
                  > have been misconstrued.
                  > First off let me say I live in Gulfport, MS. For those who may not be
                  > familiar with our geography, we have several barrier islands with
                  > three being a sort sail (5-7 miles offshore). The water depth between
                  > shore and these islands averages around 12 feet (deeper in some
                  > places, shallower in many!). Even though the islands give protection
                  > from the ocean, when the wind conditions are right and the tide is
                  > running in the opposite direction the seas get confused. Producing
                  > short, flat, irregular waves usually up to 3 feet (although I have
                  > seen 6).
                  > Of course a prudent sailor is aware of the weather and always keeps an
                  > eye out for deteriorating conditions, But what if I were on the open
                  > ocean side (South) of an island, which happened to be the Lee side,
                  > and was completely unaware of the Windward conditions until the
                  > fateful return trip?
                  > Per plan, would the Micro stand up to 3 foot seas?
                  > The real reason I wanted a 1" Hull was due to Katrina debris. Efforts
                  > are ongoing to remove more but it is a slow process. I worry that
                  > eventually I may run into something and I wanted the piece of mind
                  > that the Hull would stand up to it without puncture. Maybe I'm
                  > over-worrying...
                  > My intention for this boat is to sail with the family out to islands
                  > on the weekends. I just want to be able to get home in bad weather
                  > conditions if we are forced to by time constraints.
                  > Mr. Lenihan, I have seen pictures of your boat and I aspire to achieve
                  > the level of finish you did with LESTAT. A true Gold-Plater!
                  > I have read a lot of Mr. Bolger's comments pertaining to changing his
                  > designs and that is not what I intended. I just thought thicker was
                  > better...
                  > What about 1/2" Hull, 3/8" everywhere else? With sheathed exterior
                  > will it be beyond the reasonable towing capacity of a 6 cylinder?
                  > Or will the Micro with 1/4" plywood throughout and sheathed exterior
                  > be more than enough for my needs and intended uses?
                  >
                • rod_cahill
                  Hi, I previously had contact with two Micro owning gentlemen from/near Adelaide, Australia but lost contact since computer problem. One was Allen, sorry
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 30, 2010
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                    Hi, I previously had contact with two Micro owning gentlemen from/near Adelaide, Australia but lost contact since computer problem. One was Allen, sorry forgot other name. If you could please make contact again.

                    Also, Would like to see photos of some Micro interiors set up for solo cruising.

                    Thankyou,

                    Rod Cahill
                    Bowning, NSW, Australia (previously Canberra)
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