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Re: Building a Long Dory

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  • Don
    Thanks for the informative replies everyone. David: Did you spring in the chine logs after the sides were attached to the frames and stem/stern, or did you set
    Message 1 of 23 , Oct 1, 2007
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      Thanks for the informative replies everyone.

      David: Did you spring in the chine logs after the sides were attached
      to the frames and stem/stern, or did you set up forms to hold the
      chine in place before bending on the side panels? Seems the former
      would work and should be faster and easier. This is what I would like
      to do on my boat.
      > >
      > > Thanks, Don
      >
    • donm172001
      The chine logs should not cause any longevity problems. Just turn the boat over when you are done rowing and any water that may have collected will run out,
      Message 2 of 23 , Oct 1, 2007
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        The chine logs should not cause any longevity problems. Just turn the
        boat over when you are done rowing and any water that may have
        collected will run out, plus it will not collect rainwater. If the
        boat is going to live outside, the proper way to store it is upside
        down, just like a canoe.


        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
        >
        > Don - I have experience with a chine log version of the Long Light
        > Dory. RiversWest, a local small boat group, taught a class in
        > boatbuilding recently to a group of "at risk" youth. I was one of
        the
        > instructors. The lead instructor was Dan Pence, who's built several
        > Bolger boats (and who recently won the Shipyard Raid in a
        > skin-on-frame boat of his own design, Conjure. Take a bow Dan!). He
        > decided - because of increased speed and less mess - to do chine
        logs.
        >
        > It's too soon to talk about longevity, but the building part
        presented
        > no problems. I've built both stitch&goo boats, and screw & glue
        (chine
        > log) boats. I've also used lots of epoxy in my architectural
        millwork
        > business. It's marvelous stuff, but the more I do, the less I enjoy
        > suiting up for epoxy work, and the messiness of the cleanup -
        > especially if I have inexperienced helpers.
        >
        > Bottom line: I'd see no problem - given the comments above about
        > collecting water - with going with a chine log (what I call screw &
        glue).
        >
        > Cheers,
        > David Graybeal
        > Portland, OR
        >
        > "Good judgment comes from experience. The most useful experience
        comes
        > from bad judgment"
        >
        > ***********
        >
        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <don.froese@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi everyone. I just joined this group and this is my first post.
        I am
        > > planning on building Bolger's long dory using plans from Payson's
        > > latest book. I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can
        > > answer. I am considering using inside chine logs instead of
        stitch-and-
        > > tape. I have nothing against epoxy but I prefer to work with
        wood. Is
        > > there a downside to doing this? I think I would have to spring
        the
        > > logs into place after the sides were bent around the frames.
        Would
        > > there be any impact on boat longevity, given reasonable storage
        and
        > > maintenance?
        > > Any other tips/suggestions before I get started?
        > >
        > > Thanks, Don
        >
      • adventures_in_astrophotography
        Hi Don, ... am ... and- ... Is ... and ... You ve read all the other posts by now and they all make good points. I would add that you might have to scarf the
        Message 3 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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          Hi Don,

          > Hi everyone. I just joined this group and this is my first post. I
          am
          > planning on building Bolger's long dory using plans from Payson's
          > latest book. I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can
          > answer. I am considering using inside chine logs instead of stitch-
          and-
          > tape. I have nothing against epoxy but I prefer to work with wood.
          Is
          > there a downside to doing this? I think I would have to spring the
          > logs into place after the sides were bent around the frames. Would
          > there be any impact on boat longevity, given reasonable storage
          and
          > maintenance?
          > Any other tips/suggestions before I get started?

          You've read all the other posts by now and they all make good
          points. I would add that you might have to scarf the chine logs on
          the boat in order to get a good fit at the stem and tombstone.
          However, it might be possible to fit the chine logs to the side
          panels, stem, and tombstone prior to springing the sides around the
          frames, as long as you cut the stem and tombstone side bevels
          accurately first. The bottom (and top) bevel on the chine logs
          should be constant, or close enough not to matter.

          If I were doing it again, I don't think I'd use a chine log on this
          design. The side flare is considerable, which means fasteners on
          the bottom have to go into the log at a steep angle, too, requiring
          more countersink depth if you leave them in, or more goop to fill if
          you take them out. Are you going to tape the frames in or frame
          them with lumber also? If the latter, you're starting to add some
          real weight with both the logs and the frames, and I think that will
          hurt the boat's performance to some degree, especially if rowing
          solo. I'd keep it as light as possible - as drawn.

          Ultimately, I don't see any advantage to chine logs unless you just
          like how it looks - which is of course a perfectly justifiable
          reason to do it!

          Jon Kolb
          www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
        • Bruce Hallman
          ... And the looks I like about the stretched light dory is the exaggerated fan tail , which I don t think is just an affectation. That fan tail would be
          Message 4 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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            On 10/3/07, adventures_in_astrophotography <jon@...> wrote:

            > Ultimately, ...unless you just
            > like how it looks - which is of
            > course a perfectly justifiable
            > reason to do it!


            And 'the looks' I like about the stretched light dory is the
            exaggerated 'fan tail', which I don't think is just an affectation.
            That fan tail would be beneficial, I figure, navigating the surf where
            I live.

            http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1476751709&size=o

            This URL Shows my 'mind's eye' interpretation of the shape of a Long
            Dory with the fan tail pulled out some more. The panel layout of the
            sides fits nicely on 2 and 1/2 sheets of 1/4" plywood and the bottom
            cuts from a 12' x 2' piece of 1/2" plywood. If you were careful, I
            bet this 19ft 10in hull could weight less than 100 lbs.
          • adventures_in_astrophotography
            Hi Bruce, ... where ... Nicely done as usual. I ll wager that the original will be slightly faster than your rendering, thanks to the slightly longer
            Message 5 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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              Hi Bruce,

              > And 'the looks' I like about the stretched light dory is the
              > exaggerated 'fan tail', which I don't think is just an affectation.
              > That fan tail would be beneficial, I figure, navigating the surf
              where
              > I live.
              >
              > http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1476751709&size=o
              >
              > This URL Shows my 'mind's eye' interpretation of the shape of a Long
              > Dory with the fan tail pulled out some more. The panel layout of the
              > sides fits nicely on 2 and 1/2 sheets of 1/4" plywood and the bottom
              > cuts from a 12' x 2' piece of 1/2" plywood. If you were careful, I
              > bet this 19ft 10in hull could weight less than 100 lbs.

              Nicely done as usual. I'll wager that the original will be slightly
              faster than your rendering, thanks to the slightly longer waterline
              length, but I like the looks of your version, too.

              The bottom can be had from one sheet of 1/2" ply by laying out half of
              the bottom from each end of the sheet, offsetting the centerline of
              each piece by about 2'. Payson shows one way to do this in his book,
              offsetting the two halves diagonally, but it's easier to use the
              factory edges for the butt joint.

              If you make the seat bearers removable, or eliminate them altogether
              and sit on a box, and use lightweight wood for the gunwales, I don't
              doubt you can keep the weight under 100 lbs. I should probably weigh
              mine sometime, but it's certainly no trouble to row solo, as I have
              put up to ten non-stop miles under her a few times.

              It's good to see this design getting some interest thanks to Payson's
              book. I'll just add that if you make the gunwales two courses of 3/4"
              x 1-1/2" material as called for in the plans (perhaps without the
              fancy shaping and bronze half oval called for), the hull is so stiff
              that you can make the seat bearers removable, which has some
              advantages. For example, I was able to make a second set that only
              use the forward half of the hull, leaving the after half of the
              boat "open" for my dog to spread out. Payson shows the seat bearers
              as permanent structure and used only one strip of material for the
              gunwales. He also put the oarlocks on the inside of the hull, which
              will almost surely result in cross-handed rowing with 7' oars from all
              seating positions.

              Jon Kolb
              www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
            • Bruce Hallman
              ... Off line, here in physically in my hands, I have made some paper scale models of this exaggerated long dory and a per plans Gloucester Gull. Comparing
              Message 6 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                On 10/3/07, adventures_in_astrophotography <jon@...> wrote:
                > I'll wager that the original will be slightly
                > faster than your rendering, thanks to the slightly longer waterline
                > length, but I like the looks of your version, too.

                Off line, here in physically in my hands, I have made some paper scale
                models of this exaggerated long dory and a 'per plans' Gloucester
                Gull. Comparing the two: Most notable I see that mine has more
                curvy-ness, in the bottom (as the GGull has nearly a flat bottom), and
                also in the sheerline. Speed isn't everything, (considering that
                boats are also 'sculptures' of a sort.) Big long swoopy sheerlines
                are pretty.

                What I am thinking of is a 'pretty' boat to launch through the surf
                near my home, and the higher ends from that exaggerated curvature, I
                think, might be an improvement. Plus, it needs to be light weight
                enough to drag a hundred yards from the car to the water.
              • Don
                Thanks for the information Jon. Your point about the chine logs being heavier is a good one. I intend to tape in the frames and am now thinking I will tape the
                Message 7 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
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                  Thanks for the information Jon. Your point about the chine logs being
                  heavier is a good one. I intend to tape in the frames and am now
                  thinking I will tape the chines as well.

                  Here is another question for you: I have some sheets of very nice 3/8
                  marine Meranti ply in my shop. Do you think this would work for the
                  bottom if I added a couple of layers of 6-ox. glass/epoxy on the bottom?

                  Also, did you use butt-blocks or scarphs on the bottom panel?

                  Cheers,

                  Don
                • adventures_in_astrophotography
                  ... You need a boat-barrow! I need to get a good photo of mine and post it, but basically it s a lightweight, almost flimsy A-frame made from two 1x4 cedar
                  Message 8 of 23 , Oct 4, 2007
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                    ...snip...
                    > Plus, it needs to be light weight
                    > enough to drag a hundred yards from the car to the water.

                    You need a boat-barrow! I need to get a good photo of mine and post
                    it, but basically it's a lightweight, almost flimsy A-frame made from
                    two 1x4 cedar boards with a couple of 1x4 cross pieces. At the apex
                    is a plywood fork that mounts a single wheelbarrow wheel and tire. I
                    use it to carry my Michalak Robote upside-down. Less than $50
                    invested, much less if you use scrap lumber.

                    The barrow with boat slides right into the back of the pickup, handle
                    end forward, with the bow and wheel hanging out from the tailgate. I
                    suppose it could even be car-topped. It's a 10-second operation to
                    unstrap it, slide it out of the bed, and start heading for the water.
                    100 yards is no trouble at all, and the big wheelbarrow tire handles
                    any terrain I've encountered. I'm planning a slightly beefier two-
                    wheel version for the Long Light Dory.

                    Jon Kolb
                    www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
                  • adventures_in_astrophotography
                    Hi Don, ... I don t know if the glass will add much, if any stiffness to the bottom panel, but it would sure add some abrasion resistance. If the bottom turns
                    Message 9 of 23 , Oct 4, 2007
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                      Hi Don,

                      ...snip...
                      > Here is another question for you: I have some sheets of very nice 3/8
                      > marine Meranti ply in my shop. Do you think this would work for the
                      > bottom if I added a couple of layers of 6-ox. glass/epoxy on the
                      > bottom?

                      I don't know if the glass will add much, if any stiffness to the
                      bottom panel, but it would sure add some abrasion resistance. If the
                      bottom turns out to be a little spongy when you step into the boat,
                      you can always add a stiff shoe or a layer of doorskin to the bottom.
                      If it were me, I'd go for it.

                      > Also, did you use butt-blocks or scarphs on the bottom panel?

                      I used butt blocks. Fast, easy, only have to do one side of the
                      panel. If you scarf, you should probably make sure you can get both
                      ends of the bottom panel out of one sheet before you do it.

                      Jon Kolb
                      www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
                    • Bruce Hallman
                      ... Perhaps, but it would need a really fat tire to deal with our sand dunes and the loose sand. And then, where to keep it while out on the water? Keeping
                      Message 10 of 23 , Oct 4, 2007
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                        On 10/4/07, adventures_in_astrophotography <jon@...> wrote:

                        > You need a boat-barrow!

                        Perhaps, but it would need a really fat tire to deal with our sand
                        dunes and the loose sand.

                        And then, where to keep it while out on the water? Keeping the boat
                        light weight, enough to drag it across the sand might be the simpler
                        option.
                      • Don Froese
                        Thanks again Jon. I faxed PCB and he also confirmed the 3/8 ply for the bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass. Cheers, Don
                        Message 11 of 23 , Oct 4, 2007
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                          Thanks again Jon. I faxed PCB and he also confirmed the 3/8 ply for the
                          bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass.



                          Cheers,



                          Don



                          ________________________________

                          From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                          Of adventures_in_astrophotography
                          Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 6:01 AM
                          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory



                          Hi Don,

                          ...snip...
                          > Here is another question for you: I have some sheets of very nice 3/8
                          > marine Meranti ply in my shop. Do you think this would work for the
                          > bottom if I added a couple of layers of 6-ox. glass/epoxy on the
                          > bottom?

                          I don't know if the glass will add much, if any stiffness to the
                          bottom panel, but it would sure add some abrasion resistance. If the
                          bottom turns out to be a little spongy when you step into the boat,
                          you can always add a stiff shoe or a layer of doorskin to the bottom.
                          If it were me, I'd go for it.

                          > Also, did you use butt-blocks or scarphs on the bottom panel?

                          I used butt blocks. Fast, easy, only have to do one side of the
                          panel. If you scarf, you should probably make sure you can get both
                          ends of the bottom panel out of one sheet before you do it.

                          Jon Kolb
                          www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Kristine Bennett
                          Don if you are going to use the Dory a lot, you may want to think about putting a layer of 6 or 8 oz. cloth and epoxy on the bottom inside. The hull bottom
                          Message 12 of 23 , Oct 4, 2007
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                            Don if you are going to use the Dory a lot, you may want to think about putting a layer of 6 or 8 oz. cloth and epoxy on the bottom inside. The hull bottom will hold up better then just being painted.

                            Blessings Krissie

                            Don Froese <don.froese@...> wrote: Thanks again Jon. I faxed PCB and he also confirmed the 3/8 ply for the
                            bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass.

                            Cheers,

                            Don

                            ________________________________








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                          • Don Froese
                            Thanks for the suggestion Krissie. I plan to coat the inside with a 2-part industrial epoxy paint. That stuff is very tough. Cheers, Don
                            Message 13 of 23 , Oct 5, 2007
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                              Thanks for the suggestion Krissie. I plan to coat the inside with a
                              2-part industrial epoxy paint. That stuff is very tough.



                              Cheers,



                              Don



                              ________________________________

                              From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              Of Kristine Bennett
                              Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 8:18 PM
                              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory



                              Don if you are going to use the Dory a lot, you may want to think about
                              putting a layer of 6 or 8 oz. cloth and epoxy on the bottom inside. The
                              hull bottom will hold up better then just being painted.

                              Blessings Krissie

                              Don Froese <don.froese@... <mailto:don.froese%40kodak.com> >
                              wrote: Thanks again Jon. I faxed PCB and he also confirmed the 3/8 ply
                              for the
                              bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass.

                              Cheers,

                              Don

                              ________________________________


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                            • dnjost
                              Don - I concur with Krissie here as well. Had I glassed the inside bottom of my Diablo, I probably would be out fishing right now. Rain water has that sits
                              Message 14 of 23 , Oct 5, 2007
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                                Don -
                                I concur with Krissie here as well. Had I glassed the inside bottom of
                                my Diablo, I probably would be out fishing right now. Rain water has
                                that sits on any painted surface somehow finds its way into the rest of
                                the plywood and gets trapped. Particularly if the other face is
                                glassed. I plan on glassing the bottom of the 18' skiff inside and out
                                for longterm protection from clam rakes, anchors, dog nails (the
                                labrador has meat hooks for claws), fishing tackle, crab pots, etc.

                                The boat is so darned heavy to begin with, that I doubt a gallon
                                of "goo on glass" is going to put the boat past the acceptable weight
                                limits.

                                Happy building.
                                Only two more hours until the sawdust starts flying.
                              • Kristine Bennett
                                Don the paint is only as good as what it s being put on. Seeing how wood is soft and flexible, the paint is going to crack and let water in the wood. I have a
                                Message 15 of 23 , Oct 5, 2007
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                                  Don the paint is only as good as what it's being put on. Seeing how wood is soft and flexible, the paint is going to crack and let water in the wood.

                                  I have a canopy for my truck that I sheathed with glass and epoxy on the front and top, and no spiders cracks. But on the sides I use Nexis cloth and epoxy and any place the side has been thumped there are spider cracks. I have had to patch a couple of places where the door skin had come apart. The Nexis cloth and epoxy are just over a 1/32nd of an inch. So I'll bet the epoxy paint will crack in time as well.

                                  I helped a friend glass the inside of his hull panels for the hull bottom before they went on the hull. As I remember we used 7781 and it gave a nice flat surface to glue to. He was happy with the boat after 10 years of hard use.

                                  Blessings Krissie


                                  Don Froese <don.froese@...> wrote: Thanks for the suggestion Krissie. I plan to coat the inside with a
                                  2-part industrial epoxy paint. That stuff is very tough.

                                  Cheers,

                                  Don

                                  ________________________________








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                                • John and Kathy Trussell
                                  I recently finished a Michalak stitch and glue version of the Hereshoff Row Boat. I decided to coat the interior with epoxy after the hull was assembled and
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Oct 6, 2007
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                                    I recently finished a Michalak stitch and glue version of the Hereshoff Row Boat. I decided to coat the interior with epoxy after the hull was assembled and this turned out to be a big mistake. For awhile, I thought of naming the boat "Drips, Runs, and Errors". There were lots of drips and rums which had to be sanded out in narrow, inconvenient locations, and I hate sanding! Next time, I will do as much coating as I can before assembly with the various pieces of the boat supported at a comfortable working level. Gravity is going to exert its force and I figure that it can work for me as well as against me. Any sanding to required can likewise be done at a comfortable height without contortion.

                                    JohnT
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Kristine Bennett
                                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 10:53 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory


                                    Don the paint is only as good as what it's being put on. Seeing how wood is soft and flexible, the paint is going to crack and let water in the wood.

                                    I have a canopy for my truck that I sheathed with glass and epoxy on the front and top, and no spiders cracks. But on the sides I use Nexis cloth and epoxy and any place the side has been thumped there are spider cracks. I have had to patch a couple of places where the door skin had come apart. The Nexis cloth and epoxy are just over a 1/32nd of an inch. So I'll bet the epoxy paint will crack in time as well.

                                    I helped a friend glass the inside of his hull panels for the hull bottom before they went on the hull. As I remember we used 7781 and it gave a nice flat surface to glue to. He was happy with the boat after 10 years of hard use.

                                    Blessings Krissie

                                    Don Froese <don.froese@...> wrote: Thanks for the suggestion Krissie. I plan to coat the inside with a
                                    2-part industrial epoxy paint. That stuff is very tough.

                                    Cheers,

                                    Don

                                    ________________________________


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                                  • ANDREW AIREY
                                    What about a single pack polyurethane varnish.My recollection of using some years ago was that it was tough and quite flexible cheers Andy Airey Send instant
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Oct 7, 2007
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                                      What about a single pack polyurethane varnish.My
                                      recollection of using some years ago was that it was
                                      tough and quite flexible
                                      cheers
                                      Andy Airey

                                      Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                                    • Don Froese
                                      Hi Andy: From my experience using single-pack polyurethane paint (not varnish), I have found that it does not stand up to abuse nearly as well as a 2-part
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Oct 8, 2007
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                                        Hi Andy:



                                        From my experience using single-pack polyurethane paint (not varnish), I
                                        have found that it does not stand up to abuse nearly as well as a 2-part
                                        epoxy paint. The polyurethane is much easier to apply and to get a nice
                                        finish with though. I used epoxy paint on the cockpit sole of my
                                        Bartender, where it gets lots of abuse. It seems to be holding up very
                                        well so far. Time will tell I guess.



                                        Cheers,



                                        Don



                                        ________________________________

                                        From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                        Of ANDREW AIREY
                                        Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 3:05 PM
                                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory



                                        What about a single pack polyurethane varnish.My
                                        recollection of using some years ago was that it was
                                        tough and quite flexible
                                        cheers
                                        Andy Airey

                                        Send instant messages to your online friends
                                        http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com <http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com>





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