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Re: Building a Long Dory

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  • David
    Don - I have experience with a chine log version of the Long Light Dory. RiversWest, a local small boat group, taught a class in boatbuilding recently to a
    Message 1 of 23 , Oct 1, 2007
      Don - I have experience with a chine log version of the Long Light
      Dory. RiversWest, a local small boat group, taught a class in
      boatbuilding recently to a group of "at risk" youth. I was one of the
      instructors. The lead instructor was Dan Pence, who's built several
      Bolger boats (and who recently won the Shipyard Raid in a
      skin-on-frame boat of his own design, Conjure. Take a bow Dan!). He
      decided - because of increased speed and less mess - to do chine logs.

      It's too soon to talk about longevity, but the building part presented
      no problems. I've built both stitch&goo boats, and screw & glue (chine
      log) boats. I've also used lots of epoxy in my architectural millwork
      business. It's marvelous stuff, but the more I do, the less I enjoy
      suiting up for epoxy work, and the messiness of the cleanup -
      especially if I have inexperienced helpers.

      Bottom line: I'd see no problem - given the comments above about
      collecting water - with going with a chine log (what I call screw & glue).

      Cheers,
      David Graybeal
      Portland, OR

      "Good judgment comes from experience. The most useful experience comes
      from bad judgment"

      ***********

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <don.froese@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi everyone. I just joined this group and this is my first post. I am
      > planning on building Bolger's long dory using plans from Payson's
      > latest book. I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can
      > answer. I am considering using inside chine logs instead of stitch-and-
      > tape. I have nothing against epoxy but I prefer to work with wood. Is
      > there a downside to doing this? I think I would have to spring the
      > logs into place after the sides were bent around the frames. Would
      > there be any impact on boat longevity, given reasonable storage and
      > maintenance?
      > Any other tips/suggestions before I get started?
      >
      > Thanks, Don
    • Don
      Thanks for the informative replies everyone. David: Did you spring in the chine logs after the sides were attached to the frames and stem/stern, or did you set
      Message 2 of 23 , Oct 1, 2007
        Thanks for the informative replies everyone.

        David: Did you spring in the chine logs after the sides were attached
        to the frames and stem/stern, or did you set up forms to hold the
        chine in place before bending on the side panels? Seems the former
        would work and should be faster and easier. This is what I would like
        to do on my boat.
        > >
        > > Thanks, Don
        >
      • donm172001
        The chine logs should not cause any longevity problems. Just turn the boat over when you are done rowing and any water that may have collected will run out,
        Message 3 of 23 , Oct 1, 2007
          The chine logs should not cause any longevity problems. Just turn the
          boat over when you are done rowing and any water that may have
          collected will run out, plus it will not collect rainwater. If the
          boat is going to live outside, the proper way to store it is upside
          down, just like a canoe.


          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "David" <arbordg@...> wrote:
          >
          > Don - I have experience with a chine log version of the Long Light
          > Dory. RiversWest, a local small boat group, taught a class in
          > boatbuilding recently to a group of "at risk" youth. I was one of
          the
          > instructors. The lead instructor was Dan Pence, who's built several
          > Bolger boats (and who recently won the Shipyard Raid in a
          > skin-on-frame boat of his own design, Conjure. Take a bow Dan!). He
          > decided - because of increased speed and less mess - to do chine
          logs.
          >
          > It's too soon to talk about longevity, but the building part
          presented
          > no problems. I've built both stitch&goo boats, and screw & glue
          (chine
          > log) boats. I've also used lots of epoxy in my architectural
          millwork
          > business. It's marvelous stuff, but the more I do, the less I enjoy
          > suiting up for epoxy work, and the messiness of the cleanup -
          > especially if I have inexperienced helpers.
          >
          > Bottom line: I'd see no problem - given the comments above about
          > collecting water - with going with a chine log (what I call screw &
          glue).
          >
          > Cheers,
          > David Graybeal
          > Portland, OR
          >
          > "Good judgment comes from experience. The most useful experience
          comes
          > from bad judgment"
          >
          > ***********
          >
          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Don" <don.froese@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi everyone. I just joined this group and this is my first post.
          I am
          > > planning on building Bolger's long dory using plans from Payson's
          > > latest book. I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can
          > > answer. I am considering using inside chine logs instead of
          stitch-and-
          > > tape. I have nothing against epoxy but I prefer to work with
          wood. Is
          > > there a downside to doing this? I think I would have to spring
          the
          > > logs into place after the sides were bent around the frames.
          Would
          > > there be any impact on boat longevity, given reasonable storage
          and
          > > maintenance?
          > > Any other tips/suggestions before I get started?
          > >
          > > Thanks, Don
          >
        • adventures_in_astrophotography
          Hi Don, ... am ... and- ... Is ... and ... You ve read all the other posts by now and they all make good points. I would add that you might have to scarf the
          Message 4 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
            Hi Don,

            > Hi everyone. I just joined this group and this is my first post. I
            am
            > planning on building Bolger's long dory using plans from Payson's
            > latest book. I have a couple of questions that I hope someone can
            > answer. I am considering using inside chine logs instead of stitch-
            and-
            > tape. I have nothing against epoxy but I prefer to work with wood.
            Is
            > there a downside to doing this? I think I would have to spring the
            > logs into place after the sides were bent around the frames. Would
            > there be any impact on boat longevity, given reasonable storage
            and
            > maintenance?
            > Any other tips/suggestions before I get started?

            You've read all the other posts by now and they all make good
            points. I would add that you might have to scarf the chine logs on
            the boat in order to get a good fit at the stem and tombstone.
            However, it might be possible to fit the chine logs to the side
            panels, stem, and tombstone prior to springing the sides around the
            frames, as long as you cut the stem and tombstone side bevels
            accurately first. The bottom (and top) bevel on the chine logs
            should be constant, or close enough not to matter.

            If I were doing it again, I don't think I'd use a chine log on this
            design. The side flare is considerable, which means fasteners on
            the bottom have to go into the log at a steep angle, too, requiring
            more countersink depth if you leave them in, or more goop to fill if
            you take them out. Are you going to tape the frames in or frame
            them with lumber also? If the latter, you're starting to add some
            real weight with both the logs and the frames, and I think that will
            hurt the boat's performance to some degree, especially if rowing
            solo. I'd keep it as light as possible - as drawn.

            Ultimately, I don't see any advantage to chine logs unless you just
            like how it looks - which is of course a perfectly justifiable
            reason to do it!

            Jon Kolb
            www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
          • Bruce Hallman
            ... And the looks I like about the stretched light dory is the exaggerated fan tail , which I don t think is just an affectation. That fan tail would be
            Message 5 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
              On 10/3/07, adventures_in_astrophotography <jon@...> wrote:

              > Ultimately, ...unless you just
              > like how it looks - which is of
              > course a perfectly justifiable
              > reason to do it!


              And 'the looks' I like about the stretched light dory is the
              exaggerated 'fan tail', which I don't think is just an affectation.
              That fan tail would be beneficial, I figure, navigating the surf where
              I live.

              http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1476751709&size=o

              This URL Shows my 'mind's eye' interpretation of the shape of a Long
              Dory with the fan tail pulled out some more. The panel layout of the
              sides fits nicely on 2 and 1/2 sheets of 1/4" plywood and the bottom
              cuts from a 12' x 2' piece of 1/2" plywood. If you were careful, I
              bet this 19ft 10in hull could weight less than 100 lbs.
            • adventures_in_astrophotography
              Hi Bruce, ... where ... Nicely done as usual. I ll wager that the original will be slightly faster than your rendering, thanks to the slightly longer
              Message 6 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
                Hi Bruce,

                > And 'the looks' I like about the stretched light dory is the
                > exaggerated 'fan tail', which I don't think is just an affectation.
                > That fan tail would be beneficial, I figure, navigating the surf
                where
                > I live.
                >
                > http://flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=1476751709&size=o
                >
                > This URL Shows my 'mind's eye' interpretation of the shape of a Long
                > Dory with the fan tail pulled out some more. The panel layout of the
                > sides fits nicely on 2 and 1/2 sheets of 1/4" plywood and the bottom
                > cuts from a 12' x 2' piece of 1/2" plywood. If you were careful, I
                > bet this 19ft 10in hull could weight less than 100 lbs.

                Nicely done as usual. I'll wager that the original will be slightly
                faster than your rendering, thanks to the slightly longer waterline
                length, but I like the looks of your version, too.

                The bottom can be had from one sheet of 1/2" ply by laying out half of
                the bottom from each end of the sheet, offsetting the centerline of
                each piece by about 2'. Payson shows one way to do this in his book,
                offsetting the two halves diagonally, but it's easier to use the
                factory edges for the butt joint.

                If you make the seat bearers removable, or eliminate them altogether
                and sit on a box, and use lightweight wood for the gunwales, I don't
                doubt you can keep the weight under 100 lbs. I should probably weigh
                mine sometime, but it's certainly no trouble to row solo, as I have
                put up to ten non-stop miles under her a few times.

                It's good to see this design getting some interest thanks to Payson's
                book. I'll just add that if you make the gunwales two courses of 3/4"
                x 1-1/2" material as called for in the plans (perhaps without the
                fancy shaping and bronze half oval called for), the hull is so stiff
                that you can make the seat bearers removable, which has some
                advantages. For example, I was able to make a second set that only
                use the forward half of the hull, leaving the after half of the
                boat "open" for my dog to spread out. Payson shows the seat bearers
                as permanent structure and used only one strip of material for the
                gunwales. He also put the oarlocks on the inside of the hull, which
                will almost surely result in cross-handed rowing with 7' oars from all
                seating positions.

                Jon Kolb
                www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
              • Bruce Hallman
                ... Off line, here in physically in my hands, I have made some paper scale models of this exaggerated long dory and a per plans Gloucester Gull. Comparing
                Message 7 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
                  On 10/3/07, adventures_in_astrophotography <jon@...> wrote:
                  > I'll wager that the original will be slightly
                  > faster than your rendering, thanks to the slightly longer waterline
                  > length, but I like the looks of your version, too.

                  Off line, here in physically in my hands, I have made some paper scale
                  models of this exaggerated long dory and a 'per plans' Gloucester
                  Gull. Comparing the two: Most notable I see that mine has more
                  curvy-ness, in the bottom (as the GGull has nearly a flat bottom), and
                  also in the sheerline. Speed isn't everything, (considering that
                  boats are also 'sculptures' of a sort.) Big long swoopy sheerlines
                  are pretty.

                  What I am thinking of is a 'pretty' boat to launch through the surf
                  near my home, and the higher ends from that exaggerated curvature, I
                  think, might be an improvement. Plus, it needs to be light weight
                  enough to drag a hundred yards from the car to the water.
                • Don
                  Thanks for the information Jon. Your point about the chine logs being heavier is a good one. I intend to tape in the frames and am now thinking I will tape the
                  Message 8 of 23 , Oct 3, 2007
                    Thanks for the information Jon. Your point about the chine logs being
                    heavier is a good one. I intend to tape in the frames and am now
                    thinking I will tape the chines as well.

                    Here is another question for you: I have some sheets of very nice 3/8
                    marine Meranti ply in my shop. Do you think this would work for the
                    bottom if I added a couple of layers of 6-ox. glass/epoxy on the bottom?

                    Also, did you use butt-blocks or scarphs on the bottom panel?

                    Cheers,

                    Don
                  • adventures_in_astrophotography
                    ... You need a boat-barrow! I need to get a good photo of mine and post it, but basically it s a lightweight, almost flimsy A-frame made from two 1x4 cedar
                    Message 9 of 23 , Oct 4, 2007
                      ...snip...
                      > Plus, it needs to be light weight
                      > enough to drag a hundred yards from the car to the water.

                      You need a boat-barrow! I need to get a good photo of mine and post
                      it, but basically it's a lightweight, almost flimsy A-frame made from
                      two 1x4 cedar boards with a couple of 1x4 cross pieces. At the apex
                      is a plywood fork that mounts a single wheelbarrow wheel and tire. I
                      use it to carry my Michalak Robote upside-down. Less than $50
                      invested, much less if you use scrap lumber.

                      The barrow with boat slides right into the back of the pickup, handle
                      end forward, with the bow and wheel hanging out from the tailgate. I
                      suppose it could even be car-topped. It's a 10-second operation to
                      unstrap it, slide it out of the bed, and start heading for the water.
                      100 yards is no trouble at all, and the big wheelbarrow tire handles
                      any terrain I've encountered. I'm planning a slightly beefier two-
                      wheel version for the Long Light Dory.

                      Jon Kolb
                      www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
                    • adventures_in_astrophotography
                      Hi Don, ... I don t know if the glass will add much, if any stiffness to the bottom panel, but it would sure add some abrasion resistance. If the bottom turns
                      Message 10 of 23 , Oct 4, 2007
                        Hi Don,

                        ...snip...
                        > Here is another question for you: I have some sheets of very nice 3/8
                        > marine Meranti ply in my shop. Do you think this would work for the
                        > bottom if I added a couple of layers of 6-ox. glass/epoxy on the
                        > bottom?

                        I don't know if the glass will add much, if any stiffness to the
                        bottom panel, but it would sure add some abrasion resistance. If the
                        bottom turns out to be a little spongy when you step into the boat,
                        you can always add a stiff shoe or a layer of doorskin to the bottom.
                        If it were me, I'd go for it.

                        > Also, did you use butt-blocks or scarphs on the bottom panel?

                        I used butt blocks. Fast, easy, only have to do one side of the
                        panel. If you scarf, you should probably make sure you can get both
                        ends of the bottom panel out of one sheet before you do it.

                        Jon Kolb
                        www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
                      • Bruce Hallman
                        ... Perhaps, but it would need a really fat tire to deal with our sand dunes and the loose sand. And then, where to keep it while out on the water? Keeping
                        Message 11 of 23 , Oct 4, 2007
                          On 10/4/07, adventures_in_astrophotography <jon@...> wrote:

                          > You need a boat-barrow!

                          Perhaps, but it would need a really fat tire to deal with our sand
                          dunes and the loose sand.

                          And then, where to keep it while out on the water? Keeping the boat
                          light weight, enough to drag it across the sand might be the simpler
                          option.
                        • Don Froese
                          Thanks again Jon. I faxed PCB and he also confirmed the 3/8 ply for the bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass. Cheers, Don
                          Message 12 of 23 , Oct 4, 2007
                            Thanks again Jon. I faxed PCB and he also confirmed the 3/8 ply for the
                            bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass.



                            Cheers,



                            Don



                            ________________________________

                            From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            Of adventures_in_astrophotography
                            Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 6:01 AM
                            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory



                            Hi Don,

                            ...snip...
                            > Here is another question for you: I have some sheets of very nice 3/8
                            > marine Meranti ply in my shop. Do you think this would work for the
                            > bottom if I added a couple of layers of 6-ox. glass/epoxy on the
                            > bottom?

                            I don't know if the glass will add much, if any stiffness to the
                            bottom panel, but it would sure add some abrasion resistance. If the
                            bottom turns out to be a little spongy when you step into the boat,
                            you can always add a stiff shoe or a layer of doorskin to the bottom.
                            If it were me, I'd go for it.

                            > Also, did you use butt-blocks or scarphs on the bottom panel?

                            I used butt blocks. Fast, easy, only have to do one side of the
                            panel. If you scarf, you should probably make sure you can get both
                            ends of the bottom panel out of one sheet before you do it.

                            Jon Kolb
                            www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Kristine Bennett
                            Don if you are going to use the Dory a lot, you may want to think about putting a layer of 6 or 8 oz. cloth and epoxy on the bottom inside. The hull bottom
                            Message 13 of 23 , Oct 4, 2007
                              Don if you are going to use the Dory a lot, you may want to think about putting a layer of 6 or 8 oz. cloth and epoxy on the bottom inside. The hull bottom will hold up better then just being painted.

                              Blessings Krissie

                              Don Froese <don.froese@...> wrote: Thanks again Jon. I faxed PCB and he also confirmed the 3/8 ply for the
                              bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass.

                              Cheers,

                              Don

                              ________________________________








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                            • Don Froese
                              Thanks for the suggestion Krissie. I plan to coat the inside with a 2-part industrial epoxy paint. That stuff is very tough. Cheers, Don
                              Message 14 of 23 , Oct 5, 2007
                                Thanks for the suggestion Krissie. I plan to coat the inside with a
                                2-part industrial epoxy paint. That stuff is very tough.



                                Cheers,



                                Don



                                ________________________________

                                From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                Of Kristine Bennett
                                Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 8:18 PM
                                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory



                                Don if you are going to use the Dory a lot, you may want to think about
                                putting a layer of 6 or 8 oz. cloth and epoxy on the bottom inside. The
                                hull bottom will hold up better then just being painted.

                                Blessings Krissie

                                Don Froese <don.froese@... <mailto:don.froese%40kodak.com> >
                                wrote: Thanks again Jon. I faxed PCB and he also confirmed the 3/8 ply
                                for the
                                bottom would be ok, especially with a double layer of glass.

                                Cheers,

                                Don

                                ________________________________


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                              • dnjost
                                Don - I concur with Krissie here as well. Had I glassed the inside bottom of my Diablo, I probably would be out fishing right now. Rain water has that sits
                                Message 15 of 23 , Oct 5, 2007
                                  Don -
                                  I concur with Krissie here as well. Had I glassed the inside bottom of
                                  my Diablo, I probably would be out fishing right now. Rain water has
                                  that sits on any painted surface somehow finds its way into the rest of
                                  the plywood and gets trapped. Particularly if the other face is
                                  glassed. I plan on glassing the bottom of the 18' skiff inside and out
                                  for longterm protection from clam rakes, anchors, dog nails (the
                                  labrador has meat hooks for claws), fishing tackle, crab pots, etc.

                                  The boat is so darned heavy to begin with, that I doubt a gallon
                                  of "goo on glass" is going to put the boat past the acceptable weight
                                  limits.

                                  Happy building.
                                  Only two more hours until the sawdust starts flying.
                                • Kristine Bennett
                                  Don the paint is only as good as what it s being put on. Seeing how wood is soft and flexible, the paint is going to crack and let water in the wood. I have a
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Oct 5, 2007
                                    Don the paint is only as good as what it's being put on. Seeing how wood is soft and flexible, the paint is going to crack and let water in the wood.

                                    I have a canopy for my truck that I sheathed with glass and epoxy on the front and top, and no spiders cracks. But on the sides I use Nexis cloth and epoxy and any place the side has been thumped there are spider cracks. I have had to patch a couple of places where the door skin had come apart. The Nexis cloth and epoxy are just over a 1/32nd of an inch. So I'll bet the epoxy paint will crack in time as well.

                                    I helped a friend glass the inside of his hull panels for the hull bottom before they went on the hull. As I remember we used 7781 and it gave a nice flat surface to glue to. He was happy with the boat after 10 years of hard use.

                                    Blessings Krissie


                                    Don Froese <don.froese@...> wrote: Thanks for the suggestion Krissie. I plan to coat the inside with a
                                    2-part industrial epoxy paint. That stuff is very tough.

                                    Cheers,

                                    Don

                                    ________________________________








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                                  • John and Kathy Trussell
                                    I recently finished a Michalak stitch and glue version of the Hereshoff Row Boat. I decided to coat the interior with epoxy after the hull was assembled and
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Oct 6, 2007
                                      I recently finished a Michalak stitch and glue version of the Hereshoff Row Boat. I decided to coat the interior with epoxy after the hull was assembled and this turned out to be a big mistake. For awhile, I thought of naming the boat "Drips, Runs, and Errors". There were lots of drips and rums which had to be sanded out in narrow, inconvenient locations, and I hate sanding! Next time, I will do as much coating as I can before assembly with the various pieces of the boat supported at a comfortable working level. Gravity is going to exert its force and I figure that it can work for me as well as against me. Any sanding to required can likewise be done at a comfortable height without contortion.

                                      JohnT
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Kristine Bennett
                                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, October 05, 2007 10:53 PM
                                      Subject: RE: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory


                                      Don the paint is only as good as what it's being put on. Seeing how wood is soft and flexible, the paint is going to crack and let water in the wood.

                                      I have a canopy for my truck that I sheathed with glass and epoxy on the front and top, and no spiders cracks. But on the sides I use Nexis cloth and epoxy and any place the side has been thumped there are spider cracks. I have had to patch a couple of places where the door skin had come apart. The Nexis cloth and epoxy are just over a 1/32nd of an inch. So I'll bet the epoxy paint will crack in time as well.

                                      I helped a friend glass the inside of his hull panels for the hull bottom before they went on the hull. As I remember we used 7781 and it gave a nice flat surface to glue to. He was happy with the boat after 10 years of hard use.

                                      Blessings Krissie

                                      Don Froese <don.froese@...> wrote: Thanks for the suggestion Krissie. I plan to coat the inside with a
                                      2-part industrial epoxy paint. That stuff is very tough.

                                      Cheers,

                                      Don

                                      ________________________________


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                                    • ANDREW AIREY
                                      What about a single pack polyurethane varnish.My recollection of using some years ago was that it was tough and quite flexible cheers Andy Airey Send instant
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Oct 7, 2007
                                        What about a single pack polyurethane varnish.My
                                        recollection of using some years ago was that it was
                                        tough and quite flexible
                                        cheers
                                        Andy Airey

                                        Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                                      • Don Froese
                                        Hi Andy: From my experience using single-pack polyurethane paint (not varnish), I have found that it does not stand up to abuse nearly as well as a 2-part
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Oct 8, 2007
                                          Hi Andy:



                                          From my experience using single-pack polyurethane paint (not varnish), I
                                          have found that it does not stand up to abuse nearly as well as a 2-part
                                          epoxy paint. The polyurethane is much easier to apply and to get a nice
                                          finish with though. I used epoxy paint on the cockpit sole of my
                                          Bartender, where it gets lots of abuse. It seems to be holding up very
                                          well so far. Time will tell I guess.



                                          Cheers,



                                          Don



                                          ________________________________

                                          From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                          Of ANDREW AIREY
                                          Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 3:05 PM
                                          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: [bolger] Re: Building a Long Dory



                                          What about a single pack polyurethane varnish.My
                                          recollection of using some years ago was that it was
                                          tough and quite flexible
                                          cheers
                                          Andy Airey

                                          Send instant messages to your online friends
                                          http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com <http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com>





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