Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Bolger Micro

Expand Messages
  • graeme19121984
    Bill s LM: $9000 / 1500lbs, empty = $6/lb Bruce s Micro: $1400 / 875lbs, empty = $1.60/lb Bill s LM: $9000 / 2400lbs, displacement =
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 1, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Bill's LM: $9000 / 1500lbs, empty = $6/lb

      Bruce's Micro: $1400 / 875lbs, empty = $1.60/lb


      Bill's LM: $9000 / 2400lbs, displacement = $3.75/lb

      Bruce's Micro: $1400 / 1650lbs, displacement = $0.85/lb


      About a 4x leeway factor for cost there.

      I'm sure that these boats have been built for less and for more
      depending on builder preferences. My example of a Micro was a quick
      rough basic build, though of good materials I think, by a guy who
      knocked out about six for family and friends in just a few years in
      the early 90's. It is kept on a trailer, not sheathed in frp except
      for some taped seams, has original house paint, and has one small
      patch of rot in the topsides near the bow which used to protrude
      from the garage of a former owner for some years - dry, covered
      storage has markedly extended the life of this boat. If it had been
      better built and sheathed, who knows, left on a mooring for the same
      time it may have stood up just as well.

      Graeme


      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <kingw@...> wrote:
      time.
      > 4. How much you spend depends greatly upon your materials. AC
      > plywood, or marine ply, or MDO? Epoxy (and if yes, which brand?)?
      > Hardware? Paint (porch paint, latex, or something expensive?). I
      > spent close to $9,000 building my Long Micro, including marine ply,
      > epoxy, buying my sails (from Dabbler Sails), a new 6 hp outboard,
      > electronics, etc. This price does not include a trailer- I got a
      > used, flat-bed utility trailer for hauling duties.



      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
      >
      > On 9/30/07, endsley_t <endsley_t@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello Bolgerites. My questions concern the Micro.
      > > 1) What are the plan costs?
      >
      > > 4) Per plan, What is the estimated total construction cost
      (including
      > > new sails, new 5 h.p. 4-stroke marine outboard, and a new
      aluminum
      > > trailer)?
      >
      > Again, huge variability. With lots of scrounging and improvised
      > parts, I spent about $1,400 on the boat. Again, I bet that most
      > Micro's have been built for closer to 10x that price. Yet, a
      cheaply
      > built boat can be serviceable if not immortal.
    • endsley_t
      Thank you gentlemen for your responses. I asked per plan for a general idea of the price and time involved for a workboat type finish. Even though my
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 1, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Thank you gentlemen for your responses. I asked 'per plan' for a
        general idea of the price and time involved for a 'workboat' type
        finish. Even though my goal is a 'Gold-Plater' finish on a strong
        over-built boat.
        I intend to use marine grade plywood throughout. 1" Hull, Transoms
        and Sides (or would it be better to have 1" sides to about 5" above
        where the Transoms meet the Hull and go 1/2" from there up?). 3/8"
        Deck and Cockpit.
        Everything exterior will be sheathed, everything interior will be epoxied.
        I want a true keel with solid deadwood with the ballast through-bolted
        into the Hull.
        I also wish to beef-up the Deck (such as LESTAT) with three laminated
        beams for deck support.
        None of this is new and has been done on some existing Micros and Long
        Micros.
        In essence, I want a boat capable of pushing the Elements to the
        limit. One that, if caught out in a squall, will get me home safe.
        What are the disadvantages of the added plywood weight?
        Any other modifications anyone would use (or did use) building their
        Micro?

        If you were going to build today...
        Micro or Long Micro?
        Why?
      • graeme19121984
        I d suggest that you run your suggestions by PB&F. They could quickly tell you what such a significant increase in the overall scantlings might do to the Micro
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 1, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          I'd suggest that you run your suggestions by PB&F. They could
          quickly tell you what such a significant increase in the overall
          scantlings might do to the Micro performance. I think they would be
          quite interested to hear of your wanting "a boat capable of pushing
          the Elements to the limit."


          It's not just that with the extra hull weight you will have a much
          reduced payload, it also may not be as stiff. 3/8" is good, and I'd
          guess up to 1" around the bottom would be alright.

          The Micro figures of 420lbs ballast, 875lbs empty weight, and 1650
          lbs displacement are for a boat constructed from 1/4" ply, and only
          painted. Jim Michalak has a rule-of-thumb somewhere that for 1/4"
          calculate 35lbs per plywood sheet finished, which comes very close
          to the specified Micro hull weight. For 3/8 it's 50lbs and for 1/2"
          it's 70lbs (or there abouts), and I think that may be only for boats
          sheathed on the bottom.

          Graeme



          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "endsley_t" <endsley_t@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thank you gentlemen for your responses. I asked 'per plan' for a
          > general idea of the price and time involved for a 'workboat' type
          > finish. Even though my goal is a 'Gold-Plater' finish on a strong
          > over-built boat.
          > I intend to use marine grade plywood throughout. 1" Hull, Transoms
          > and Sides (or would it be better to have 1" sides to about 5" above
          > where the Transoms meet the Hull and go 1/2" from there up?). 3/8"
          > Deck and Cockpit.
          > Everything exterior will be sheathed, everything interior will be
          epoxied.
          > I want a true keel with solid deadwood with the ballast through-
          bolted
          > into the Hull.
          > I also wish to beef-up the Deck (such as LESTAT) with three
          laminated
          > beams for deck support.
          > None of this is new and has been done on some existing Micros and
          Long
          > Micros.
          > In essence, I want a boat capable of pushing the Elements to the
          > limit. One that, if caught out in a squall, will get me home safe.
          > What are the disadvantages of the added plywood weight?
          > Any other modifications anyone would use (or did use) building
          their
          > Micro?
          >
          > If you were going to build today...
          > Micro or Long Micro?
          > Why?
          >
        • Peter Lenihan
          ... Keep this in mind; it will be the elements that are going to push you around, not the other way around ;-) Most well built boats will pretty much
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 2, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "endsley_t" <endsley_t@...> wrote:
            > In essence, I want a boat capable of pushing the Elements to the
            > limit. One that, if caught out in a squall, will get me home safe.

            Keep this in mind; it will be the elements that are going to push
            you around, not the other way around ;-)
            Most well built boats will pretty much accomplish the task of saving
            you.The master and/or crew however may not be able to take as much
            as the boat can handle.



            > What are the disadvantages of the added plywood weight?

            Added costs and added difficulty of bending 1" ply...unless you
            laminate 2 layers of 1/2"....but then there is the cost thing again.

            > Any other modifications anyone would use (or did use) building
            their
            > Micro?

            I used stainless tube for rudder post instead of the called for
            piece of wood.

            >
            > If you were going to build today...
            > Micro or Long Micro?


            Micro.

            > Why?

            'cause the first one worked so well :-)


            Sincerely,

            Peter Lenihan,ex owner/builder of LESTAT..............


            >
          • endsley_t
            I think maybe my comment about pushing the Elements to the limit may have been misconstrued. First off let me say I live in Gulfport, MS. For those who may
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 2, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              I think maybe my comment about "pushing the Elements to the limit" may
              have been misconstrued.
              First off let me say I live in Gulfport, MS. For those who may not be
              familiar with our geography, we have several barrier islands with
              three being a sort sail (5-7 miles offshore). The water depth between
              shore and these islands averages around 12 feet (deeper in some
              places, shallower in many!). Even though the islands give protection
              from the ocean, when the wind conditions are right and the tide is
              running in the opposite direction the seas get confused. Producing
              short, flat, irregular waves usually up to 3 feet (although I have
              seen 6).
              Of course a prudent sailor is aware of the weather and always keeps an
              eye out for deteriorating conditions, But what if I were on the open
              ocean side (South) of an island, which happened to be the Lee side,
              and was completely unaware of the Windward conditions until the
              fateful return trip?
              Per plan, would the Micro stand up to 3 foot seas?
              The real reason I wanted a 1" Hull was due to Katrina debris. Efforts
              are ongoing to remove more but it is a slow process. I worry that
              eventually I may run into something and I wanted the piece of mind
              that the Hull would stand up to it without puncture. Maybe I'm
              over-worrying...
              My intention for this boat is to sail with the family out to islands
              on the weekends. I just want to be able to get home in bad weather
              conditions if we are forced to by time constraints.
              Mr. Lenihan, I have seen pictures of your boat and I aspire to achieve
              the level of finish you did with LESTAT. A true Gold-Plater!
              I have read a lot of Mr. Bolger's comments pertaining to changing his
              designs and that is not what I intended. I just thought thicker was
              better...
              What about 1/2" Hull, 3/8" everywhere else? With sheathed exterior
              will it be beyond the reasonable towing capacity of a 6 cylinder?
              Or will the Micro with 1/4" plywood throughout and sheathed exterior
              be more than enough for my needs and intended uses?
            • Bruce Hallman
              ... I think so, but you would probably knock out a few teeth.
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 2, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                On 10/2/07, endsley_t <endsley_t@...> wrote:

                > Per plan, would the Micro stand up to 3 foot seas?

                I think so, but you would probably knock out a few teeth.
              • graeme19121984
                ... Wind against tide, 3ft chop? Yes. ... The outboard motor you mentioned earlier will get you home through some pretty hairy conditions :-) Your best
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 2, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "endsley_t" <endsley_t@...> wrote:

                  > and was completely unaware of the Windward conditions until the
                  > fateful return trip?
                  > Per plan, would the Micro stand up to 3 foot seas?

                  Wind against tide, 3ft chop? Yes.

                  > on the weekends. I just want to be able to get home in bad weather
                  > conditions if we are forced to by time constraints.

                  The outboard motor you mentioned earlier will get you home through
                  some pretty hairy conditions :-)

                  Your best insurance is to include the flotation as designed :)
                  .... many do not :-(

                  (... perhaps for added security include a bailing pump too?)


                  > What about 1/2" Hull, 3/8" everywhere else? With sheathed exterior
                  > will it be beyond the reasonable towing capacity of a 6 cylinder?
                  > Or will the Micro with 1/4" plywood throughout and sheathed
                  exterior
                  > be more than enough for my needs and intended uses?
                  >

                  I'd say 1/2" ought do for the bottom. 3/8" is good on the cockpit
                  deck and the cabin top which also serves as a deck at times, and, I
                  think, can do with the extra stiffness. 3/8" could do for the rest.

                  If you've yet to order the plans from PB&F then briefly include your
                  queries and concerns about the intended use with the order and
                  payment - maybe a rough sketch or two to illustrate your thinking as
                  well. I'm sure you'd receive a reply to that. They may just
                  say "Nay" or "Yay" to any particular modification, but you will then
                  know that with authority. They may make further recommendations to
                  your own suggestions.

                  Graeme
                • 9buck crowley
                  Hi again,_ I don t know what a spec micro would hold up to but mine feels incredibly stout. Years ago I ran mine aground at full speed. This is no small feat
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 3, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi again,_

                    I don't know what a spec micro would hold up to but mine feels incredibly stout. Years ago I ran mine aground at full speed. This is no small feat in a boat that draws a little over a foot of water and I was sure after jumping the boat up on that ledge that she'd been ruined but the only damage I could find was a little curl of lead ( picture a mallards tail ) in the bottom of the keel. As far as seaworthiness mine has been outside the San Francisco Golden Gate in high winds and at least sixs foot seas. The boat was fine but like others have said the real limits are in the crews abilities to sail and endure the physical demands of bad weather.
                    You mentioned you wanted to sail with your family and here I'll say we did so as a family of four. We cruised for tenor more days at a time in Mexico,in the pacific Northwest and in Maine but the boat is really best suited for two people even as a day sailor.
                    Again I'll urge you to consider the Birdwatcher especially if your going to trailer your boat. A micro takes time to set up and because of the rocker of the bottom needs a steep ramp to float it off the trailer. With a micro your going to need a dinghy and a motor so add that into the equation when your comparing costs. There was an article on the birdwatcher in Woodenboat and if you haven't read it I would urge you to.
                    I don't want to give the impression that I think the micro is not a good design I've sailed mine for ten years now and just spent two weeks cruising the Maine coast this summer with my wife. I just bought new sails for her and would find it hard to sell her but that said it's easy for me to see the merits of the Birdwatcher design.

                    Buck__________________________> To: bolger@yahoogroups.com> From: endsley_t@...> Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 01:59:05 +0000> Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger Micro>> I think maybe my comment about "pushing the Elements to the limit" may> have been misconstrued.> First off let me say I live in Gulfport, MS. For those who may not be> familiar with our geography, we have several barrier islands with> three being a sort sail (5-7 miles offshore). The water depth between> shore and these islands averages around 12 feet (deeper in some> places, shallower in many!). Even though the islands give protection> from the ocean, when the wind conditions are right and the tide is> running in the opposite direction the seas get confused. Producing> short, flat, irregular waves usually up to 3 feet (although I have> seen 6).> Of course a prudent sailor is aware of the weather and always keeps an> eye out for deteriorating conditions, But what if I were on the open> ocean side (South) of an island, which happened to be the Lee side,> and was completely unaware of the Windward conditions until the> fateful return trip?> Per plan, would the Micro stand up to 3 foot seas?> The real reason I wanted a 1" Hull was due to Katrina debris. Efforts> are ongoing to remove more but it is a slow process. I worry that> eventually I may run into something and I wanted the piece of mind> that the Hull would stand up to it without puncture. Maybe I'm> over-worrying...> My intention for this boat is to sail with the family out to islands> on the weekends. I just want to be able to get home in bad weather> conditions if we are forced to by time constraints.> Mr. Lenihan, I have seen pictures of your boat and I aspire to achieve> the level of finish you did with LESTAT. A true Gold-Plater!> I have read a lot of Mr. Bolger's comments pertaining to changing his> designs and that is not what I intended. I just thought thicker was> better...> What about 1/2" Hull, 3/8" everywhere else? With sheathed exterior> will it be beyond the reasonable towing capacity of a 6 cylinder?> Or will the Micro with 1/4" plywood throughout and sheathed exterior> be more than enough for my needs and intended uses?>

                    _________________________________________________________________
                    Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last.  Get it now.
                    http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033
                  • Bill
                    I have seen two people (on the web) who have reinforced the hulls of their Micro. The Zeiger s sailed a lee-board Micro. After punching a hole in the hull,
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 3, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I have seen two people (on the web) who have reinforced the hulls of
                      their Micro. The Zeiger's sailed a lee-board Micro. "After punching
                      a hole in the hull, just above the waterline, we added 1/2" "doubling
                      plates" port and starboard, doubling the hull thickness to 1" to about
                      8" above the waterline. It gave us a bit of extra buoyancy."
                      (http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/zoon.htm#start).

                      The other Micro saw was being built in England, and had reinforced
                      sides. I don't know if they boat was ever launched.
                      http://www.pentode.demon.co.uk/bolger/

                      When I was contemplating my Long Micro (LM) these builders influenced
                      me a bit. I opted for .5 inch sides on my LM (which Bolger notes is
                      acceptable). I think anything greater than .5 inch sides would be
                      excessive. Why not build with 3/8 inch sides (the stock sides for an
                      LM)? Or you could make laminate/sandwich sides (two pieces of .25
                      inch ply with foam board sandwiched between. Plenty of buoyancy but
                      plenty complicated to make too.

                      Both Micro and LM are designed with enough floatation to sit high when
                      full of water. I think about the possibility of being holed in my LM,
                      but it doesn't concern me much. I'll have plenty of time to swear,
                      wring my hands, and then engineer some kind of crude fix. Or just
                      motor or sail towards land with a couple hundred gallons of water
                      sloshing below.

                      Have you read Roger Keyes' accounts of sailing his micro off the coast
                      of Australia? He's modified his micro quite a bit over the years, but
                      he still sails solo, and regularly heaves-to for the night and naps at
                      sea. He's been on some extensive journeys in his micro. This says a
                      lot to me. The boat is a rugged little vessel and she'll take more
                      abuse than the crew will.
                      You can read about Roger and his micro in the "files" section of
                      Bolger7. There are also some good photos of Australian Micros
                      (in Bolger 7 and one of the other Bolger groups)

                      Bill, in Ohio

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "endsley_t" <endsley_t@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I think maybe my comment about "pushing the Elements to the limit" may
                      > have been misconstrued.
                      > First off let me say I live in Gulfport, MS. For those who may not be
                      > familiar with our geography, we have several barrier islands with
                      > three being a sort sail (5-7 miles offshore). The water depth between
                      > shore and these islands averages around 12 feet (deeper in some
                      > places, shallower in many!). Even though the islands give protection
                      > from the ocean, when the wind conditions are right and the tide is
                      > running in the opposite direction the seas get confused. Producing
                      > short, flat, irregular waves usually up to 3 feet (although I have
                      > seen 6).
                      > Of course a prudent sailor is aware of the weather and always keeps an
                      > eye out for deteriorating conditions, But what if I were on the open
                      > ocean side (South) of an island, which happened to be the Lee side,
                      > and was completely unaware of the Windward conditions until the
                      > fateful return trip?
                      > Per plan, would the Micro stand up to 3 foot seas?
                      > The real reason I wanted a 1" Hull was due to Katrina debris. Efforts
                      > are ongoing to remove more but it is a slow process. I worry that
                      > eventually I may run into something and I wanted the piece of mind
                      > that the Hull would stand up to it without puncture. Maybe I'm
                      > over-worrying...
                      > My intention for this boat is to sail with the family out to islands
                      > on the weekends. I just want to be able to get home in bad weather
                      > conditions if we are forced to by time constraints.
                      > Mr. Lenihan, I have seen pictures of your boat and I aspire to achieve
                      > the level of finish you did with LESTAT. A true Gold-Plater!
                      > I have read a lot of Mr. Bolger's comments pertaining to changing his
                      > designs and that is not what I intended. I just thought thicker was
                      > better...
                      > What about 1/2" Hull, 3/8" everywhere else? With sheathed exterior
                      > will it be beyond the reasonable towing capacity of a 6 cylinder?
                      > Or will the Micro with 1/4" plywood throughout and sheathed exterior
                      > be more than enough for my needs and intended uses?
                      >
                    • rod_cahill
                      Hi, I previously had contact with two Micro owning gentlemen from/near Adelaide, Australia but lost contact since computer problem. One was Allen, sorry
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 30, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi, I previously had contact with two Micro owning gentlemen from/near Adelaide, Australia but lost contact since computer problem. One was Allen, sorry forgot other name. If you could please make contact again.

                        Also, Would like to see photos of some Micro interiors set up for solo cruising.

                        Thankyou,

                        Rod Cahill
                        Bowning, NSW, Australia (previously Canberra)
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.