Re: Shorthanded Cruising AS19
- Hi John,
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
> The deep rocker seems to keep her from easily pushing past
> theoretical hull speed. Hull speed for AS19 is probably at least 5
> knots, and I'd expect her to easily reach that speed.
That seems to accord with what Ryerson found for his Windsprint Tri.
IIRC beam seemed the greatest limiter, but the large rocker pushed up
too big a wave to climb over. (He said it was still fairly quick in any
case and made a great cruiser and camper.)
> BTW, Sage has reached 5.8 knots being pushed by a Tohatsu 3.5 horse
> 4-stroke in calm conditions.
Gee, that is smokin'
- Weight matters, and I bet Jewelbox is quite a bit lighter that AS19. Michalak tends to design light compared to Bolger, in general.
Re: Shorthanded Cruising AS19
Posted by: "John Kohnen" jhkohnen@... jhkohnen
Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 4:10 am ((PDT))
I'm surprised that AS19 doesn't go faster than 4.4 knots. My Jewelbox,
with a similar hull shape and much shorter waterline length does better
than that. <shrug> In fact, I don't believe it (sorry Cabbie). JB,
"sea of peas" hull gets up to 4.5-4.6 knots easily, but won't go much
faster than that (though the GPS batteries were dead the day I was
her out in mid-20 mph winds). The deep rocker seems to keep her from
easily pushing past theoretical hull speed. Hull speed for AS19 is
probably at least 5 knots, and I'd expect her to easily reach that
BTW, Sage has reached 5.8 knots being pushed by a Tohatsu 3.5 horse
4-stroke in calm conditions.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I do have to clarify my statement about boat speed:
I do not have a GPS or any other speed measuring equipment; I don't
even sail with a watch.
The first year I had the boat I was paced by Don S...on his Pearson
40 something. He reported 4.4 knots, and after thinking about that
day, the wind was light. I was sailing on a close reach in smooth
water on starboard tack; the wind was certainly less than 10 knots,
but I'm not sure how much less. Don did remark that he was quite
impressed with my speed in those conditions.
Regarding the yacht club series, I did hold my own on the off wind
legs. Of course I did not make up the deficit lost up wind. This is
by no means a knock about sailing performance, as I am not wanting
for more (complexity). As to speed under power I assumed that my 4
hp. motor could reach hull speed; perhaps it did not. It does push
the boat fast enough that the stern wave will flood the aft well.
Should I edit my prior post, or will this message be a sufficient
--- In email@example.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
> --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "cabbie_caesar" <cabbie_caesar@>
> > Sorry for the late reply - I've just come off shift and I'm now
> > home.
> mate, not at all. It is I who must say sorry for not responding
> straight away after reading your wonderful reply yesterday. That's
> fantastic post about this design and it still leaves me wondering.relatively
> There is much to consider in what you wrote and... I'm still
> considering... I'm not sure what to say - the fullness of your
> appraisal took me by surprise. No doubt once I digest things I'll
> probably have even more queries... again... sorry.
> For now: you "ask... why do you want an AS19?" Good question. I
> detect from your experience with the boat you've seen something in
> my wants/needs list that doesn't quite accord with selecting this
> design. I don't know what that is, other than I don't think I can
> quite have a bigger boat right now. I've read the little previously
> available on AS19's performance and thought it quite good - you
> know - speed, handling, etc. I knew there's not a lot of space, but
> thought for one or two, for a few weeks or so, that would do. It's
> not an open ocean long distance voyager, but struck me as
> bouyant, and seaworthy, with precautions, in all but the worst ofand
> weather. I admit I've been influenced by Chapelle's comments on the
> coastal sailing garveys here. I like the potential, I suspected, to
> safely coastwise cruise through the long oceanic swells, crossed
> with the ability to ably traverse extremely skinny waters. I love
> the very easy construction, trailerability, gaff furling/reefing
> scandalizing, and more; was concerned by the freeboard, on watchthere's
> crew comfort and exposure (hot humid and sun mostly but some winter
> cold here too), pointing ability, and more too.
> You wrote "If your primary sailing program involves shoal water
> sailing, this boat will brilliantly fulfill you needs." Oh,
> plenty of that, plenty. Mud flats, sand banks, coral reefs, lakes,besides
> rivers, but there also are more open crossings. For example,
> coastal cruising, some bays are quite protected and shallow at oneto
> end, but the other may be rougher than the ocean coast at times -
> and those islands do beckon.
> I would have thought AS19 went faster than 4.4 knots. Is it faster
> under sail when the hull is heeled? There's a worry :~?
> "Mike's boat WAS ventilated with a drilled PVC pipe installed
> between ports cut in the hull sides." Ah-ha, I wondered what that
> was. Thought it a kind of rack for stretching occy cords between
> provide gear stowage, or for pegging up wet things to dry!main
> "Bungee the tiller to weather and sheet the mizzen to the desired
> attitude, the boat will stay as if parked while you prepare the
> or have lunch." - that's a very desirable quality :-)
> You've mentioned many other points, good and bad, that require more
> pondering. Yet I am reassured in my overall original impressions
> that this boat could do for me.
> Thanks again for rounding out the knowledge about this design from
> your first hand experience. Sounds to me like AS19 has provided you
> with lots of fun and enjoyment. Great.
- --- In email@example.com, "cabbie_caesar" <cabbie_caesar@...>
> I don't even sail with a watch.Way to go - tide, sun, sky...
Thanks much for the update.
I gather from that reaching performance in less than 10 knots that
one of the single luff flat reaching spinnakers that PCB's fond of
wouldn't add very much to speed, and they're not good close hauled.
Hmm, even though they look fairly uncomplicated less complexity does
the job quite acceptably, hey.
> Should I edit my prior post, or will this message be a sufficientMy twopence. IMO there's no need to edit your earlier post. If
people are searching the subject in future they'll at least scan the
whole thread, I would think.
- Hah! I thought so! <g> You weren't getting the optimum horsepower from the
wind when you were clocked. Most people lie about how their boats go
_faster_ than they really will. ;o) I've been impressed by how well my
Jewelbox, Jr. moves in light breezes. In the lightest airs I suspect that
the high rig (20' 8" mast) catches some of the stronger breeze above the
friction of the water, and the deep rocker has less surface area, and thus
skin friction, than a flat-bottom boat with flatter rocker. When the
breeze gets a little stronger the "sea of peas" shape kicks in and she
moves along real nice but, in moderate breezes at least, I haven't got her
past maybe 4.6 knots. <shrug> I'll have to check the batteries in my GPS
and take her out on a breezy day on the local mudhole (the Thistle
nationals are being held there this week, and every afternoon the wind has
been gusting into the mid to high 20 mph range! Probably too much
excitement in a racing dinghy <g>). My 15' sailing skiff, with a slightly
longer waterline length and much flatter rocker, has little trouble going
a little faster than theoretical hull speed (given a good wind, she's
undercanvased for use on the windy Oregon Coast), but the JB, Jr.
struggles to get past hull speed...
A curious thing is how fast Sage goes under power. That 3.5 Tohatsu is
more power than she _needs_, but she somehow manages to make us of it.
<shrug> I've never got my skiff to go as fast under power as she'll sail,
even using a 4 hp. engine, she just wants to dig her stern in... I would
have expected that the flatter rockered skiff would outdo the heavily
rockered JB, Jr.
BTW, I got the Tohatsu because for the same price as a 2 hp. Honda I could
get an engine with water cooling and a real (dog) clutch. On Sage, a
cruising boat, the extra weight doesn't matter much.
On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:49:39 -0700, cabbie wrote:
> I do have to clarify my statement about boat speed:
> I do not have a GPS or any other speed measuring equipment; I don't
> even sail with a watch.
> The first year I had the boat I was paced by Don S...on his Pearson
> 40 something. He reported 4.4 knots, and after thinking about that
> day, the wind was light. I was sailing on a close reach in smooth
> water on starboard tack; the wind was certainly less than 10 knots,
> but I'm not sure how much less. Don did remark that he was quite
> impressed with my speed in those conditions.
All the troubles of man come from his not knowing how to sit
still. <Blaise Pascal>
- Weight matters, but not as much at displacement speeds. It may take less
wind to push a JB, Jr. to hull speed than it does to push a heavier AS19
to hull speed, but unless the AS19 is severely undercanvased it shouldn't
take a living gale to provide more than enough horsepower to get her
On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 07:05:23 -0700, Rob R-S wrote:
> Weight matters, and I bet Jewelbox is quite a bit lighter that AS19.
> Michalak tends to design light compared to Bolger, in general.
History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in
times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant
to endure. <Thurgood Marshall>
- What's really smokin' is the almost 7 knots Bob Larkin's Birdwatcher 2
makes with a 2 hp. Honda! Maybe I'm misremembering, but the day he first
launched her we had trouble keeping ahead of her in an overloaded Scandal
skiff with 4 hp. <g>
On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 04:53:13 -0700, graeme wrote:
>> BTW, Sage has reached 5.8 knots being pushed by a Tohatsu 3.5 horse
>> 4-stroke in calm conditions.
> Gee, that is smokin'
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.