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Re: Shorthanded Cruising AS19

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  • graeme19121984
    Cabbie, ... back ... mate, not at all. It is I who must say sorry for not responding straight away after reading your wonderful reply yesterday. That s a
    Message 1 of 26 , Jul 30, 2007
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      Cabbie,

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "cabbie_caesar" <cabbie_caesar@...>
      wrote:
      > Sorry for the late reply - I've just come off shift and I'm now
      back
      > home.

      mate, not at all. It is I who must say sorry for not responding
      straight away after reading your wonderful reply yesterday. That's a
      fantastic post about this design and it still leaves me wondering.
      There is much to consider in what you wrote and... I'm still
      considering... I'm not sure what to say - the fullness of your
      appraisal took me by surprise. No doubt once I digest things I'll
      probably have even more queries... again... sorry.

      For now: you "ask... why do you want an AS19?" Good question. I
      detect from your experience with the boat you've seen something in
      my wants/needs list that doesn't quite accord with selecting this
      design. I don't know what that is, other than I don't think I can
      quite have a bigger boat right now. I've read the little previously
      available on AS19's performance and thought it quite good - you
      know - speed, handling, etc. I knew there's not a lot of space, but
      thought for one or two, for a few weeks or so, that would do. It's
      not an open ocean long distance voyager, but struck me as relatively
      bouyant, and seaworthy, with precautions, in all but the worst of
      weather. I admit I've been influenced by Chapelle's comments on the
      coastal sailing garveys here. I like the potential, I suspected, to
      safely coastwise cruise through the long oceanic swells, crossed
      with the ability to ably traverse extremely skinny waters. I love
      the very easy construction, trailerability, gaff furling/reefing and
      scandalizing, and more; was concerned by the freeboard, on watch
      crew comfort and exposure (hot humid and sun mostly but some winter
      cold here too), pointing ability, and more too.

      You wrote "If your primary sailing program involves shoal water
      sailing, this boat will brilliantly fulfill you needs." Oh, there's
      plenty of that, plenty. Mud flats, sand banks, coral reefs, lakes,
      rivers, but there also are more open crossings. For example, besides
      coastal cruising, some bays are quite protected and shallow at one
      end, but the other may be rougher than the ocean coast at times -
      and those islands do beckon.

      I would have thought AS19 went faster than 4.4 knots. Is it faster
      under sail when the hull is heeled? There's a worry :~?

      "Mike's boat WAS ventilated with a drilled PVC pipe installed
      between ports cut in the hull sides." Ah-ha, I wondered what that
      was. Thought it a kind of rack for stretching occy cords between to
      provide gear stowage, or for pegging up wet things to dry!

      "Bungee the tiller to weather and sheet the mizzen to the desired
      attitude, the boat will stay as if parked while you prepare the main
      or have lunch." - that's a very desirable quality :-)

      You've mentioned many other points, good and bad, that require more
      pondering. Yet I am reassured in my overall original impressions
      that this boat could do for me.

      Thanks again for rounding out the knowledge about this design from
      your first hand experience. Sounds to me like AS19 has provided you
      with lots of fun and enjoyment. Great.

      Cheers
      Graeme
    • Bruce Hallman
      The AS-19 sounds just perfect for sailing the vast southern shallows of San Francisco Bay. In theory, hull speed of a 19 foot LWL displacement hull is 5.84
      Message 2 of 26 , Jul 31, 2007
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        The AS-19 sounds just perfect for sailing the vast southern shallows
        of San Francisco Bay.

        In theory, hull speed of a 19 foot LWL displacement hull is 5.84
        knots, and the AS-19 is certainly a displacement hull considering that
        it has rather large 500 pound chunk of lead as ballast. I want one!
      • John Kohnen
        I m surprised that AS19 doesn t go faster than 4.4 knots. My Jewelbox, Jr. with a similar hull shape and much shorter waterline length does better than that.
        Message 3 of 26 , Aug 1, 2007
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          I'm surprised that AS19 doesn't go faster than 4.4 knots. My Jewelbox, Jr.
          with a similar hull shape and much shorter waterline length does better
          than that. <shrug> In fact, I don't believe it (sorry Cabbie). JB, Jr's
          "sea of peas" hull gets up to 4.5-4.6 knots easily, but won't go much
          faster than that (though the GPS batteries were dead the day I was trying
          her out in mid-20 mph winds). The deep rocker seems to keep her from
          easily pushing past theoretical hull speed. Hull speed for AS19 is
          probably at least 5 knots, and I'd expect her to easily reach that speed.

          BTW, Sage has reached 5.8 knots being pushed by a Tohatsu 3.5 horse
          4-stroke in calm conditions.

          On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 23:58:34 -0700, graeme wrote:

          > ...
          > I would have thought AS19 went faster than 4.4 knots. Is it faster
          > under sail when the hull is heeled? There's a worry :~?
          > ...

          --
          John <jkohnen@...>
          People say that life is the thing, but I prefer reading. <Logan
          Pearsall Smith>
        • graeme19121984
          Hi John, ... That seems to accord with what Ryerson found for his Windsprint Tri. IIRC beam seemed the greatest limiter, but the large rocker pushed up too big
          Message 4 of 26 , Aug 1, 2007
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            Hi John,

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John Kohnen" <jhkohnen@...> wrote:
            > The deep rocker seems to keep her from easily pushing past
            > theoretical hull speed. Hull speed for AS19 is probably at least 5
            > knots, and I'd expect her to easily reach that speed.

            That seems to accord with what Ryerson found for his Windsprint Tri.
            IIRC beam seemed the greatest limiter, but the large rocker pushed up
            too big a wave to climb over. (He said it was still fairly quick in any
            case and made a great cruiser and camper.)

            > BTW, Sage has reached 5.8 knots being pushed by a Tohatsu 3.5 horse
            > 4-stroke in calm conditions.

            Gee, that is smokin'

            Graeme
          • Rob Rohde-Szudy
            Weight matters, and I bet Jewelbox is quite a bit lighter that AS19. Michalak tends to design light compared to Bolger, in general. --Rob Re: Shorthanded
            Message 5 of 26 , Aug 1, 2007
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              Weight matters, and I bet Jewelbox is quite a bit lighter that AS19. Michalak tends to design light compared to Bolger, in general.
              --Rob



              Re: Shorthanded Cruising AS19
              Posted by: "John Kohnen" jhkohnen@... jhkohnen
              Date: Wed Aug 1, 2007 4:10 am ((PDT))

              I'm surprised that AS19 doesn't go faster than 4.4 knots. My Jewelbox,
              Jr.
              with a similar hull shape and much shorter waterline length does better

              than that. <shrug> In fact, I don't believe it (sorry Cabbie). JB,
              Jr's
              "sea of peas" hull gets up to 4.5-4.6 knots easily, but won't go much
              faster than that (though the GPS batteries were dead the day I was
              trying
              her out in mid-20 mph winds). The deep rocker seems to keep her from
              easily pushing past theoretical hull speed. Hull speed for AS19 is
              probably at least 5 knots, and I'd expect her to easily reach that
              speed.

              BTW, Sage has reached 5.8 knots being pushed by a Tohatsu 3.5 horse
              4-stroke in calm conditions.




              ---------------------------------
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            • cabbie_caesar
              Gentlemen, I do have to clarify my statement about boat speed: I do not have a GPS or any other speed measuring equipment; I don t even sail with a watch. The
              Message 6 of 26 , Aug 1, 2007
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                Gentlemen,

                I do have to clarify my statement about boat speed:

                I do not have a GPS or any other speed measuring equipment; I don't
                even sail with a watch.

                The first year I had the boat I was paced by Don S...on his Pearson
                40 something. He reported 4.4 knots, and after thinking about that
                day, the wind was light. I was sailing on a close reach in smooth
                water on starboard tack; the wind was certainly less than 10 knots,
                but I'm not sure how much less. Don did remark that he was quite
                impressed with my speed in those conditions.

                Regarding the yacht club series, I did hold my own on the off wind
                legs. Of course I did not make up the deficit lost up wind. This is
                by no means a knock about sailing performance, as I am not wanting
                for more (complexity). As to speed under power I assumed that my 4
                hp. motor could reach hull speed; perhaps it did not. It does push
                the boat fast enough that the stern wave will flood the aft well.

                Should I edit my prior post, or will this message be a sufficient
                correction?

                cabbie

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Cabbie,
                >
                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "cabbie_caesar" <cabbie_caesar@>
                > wrote:
                > > Sorry for the late reply - I've just come off shift and I'm now
                > back
                > > home.
                >
                > mate, not at all. It is I who must say sorry for not responding
                > straight away after reading your wonderful reply yesterday. That's
                a
                > fantastic post about this design and it still leaves me wondering.
                > There is much to consider in what you wrote and... I'm still
                > considering... I'm not sure what to say - the fullness of your
                > appraisal took me by surprise. No doubt once I digest things I'll
                > probably have even more queries... again... sorry.
                >
                > For now: you "ask... why do you want an AS19?" Good question. I
                > detect from your experience with the boat you've seen something in
                > my wants/needs list that doesn't quite accord with selecting this
                > design. I don't know what that is, other than I don't think I can
                > quite have a bigger boat right now. I've read the little previously
                > available on AS19's performance and thought it quite good - you
                > know - speed, handling, etc. I knew there's not a lot of space, but
                > thought for one or two, for a few weeks or so, that would do. It's
                > not an open ocean long distance voyager, but struck me as
                relatively
                > bouyant, and seaworthy, with precautions, in all but the worst of
                > weather. I admit I've been influenced by Chapelle's comments on the
                > coastal sailing garveys here. I like the potential, I suspected, to
                > safely coastwise cruise through the long oceanic swells, crossed
                > with the ability to ably traverse extremely skinny waters. I love
                > the very easy construction, trailerability, gaff furling/reefing
                and
                > scandalizing, and more; was concerned by the freeboard, on watch
                > crew comfort and exposure (hot humid and sun mostly but some winter
                > cold here too), pointing ability, and more too.
                >
                > You wrote "If your primary sailing program involves shoal water
                > sailing, this boat will brilliantly fulfill you needs." Oh,
                there's
                > plenty of that, plenty. Mud flats, sand banks, coral reefs, lakes,
                > rivers, but there also are more open crossings. For example,
                besides
                > coastal cruising, some bays are quite protected and shallow at one
                > end, but the other may be rougher than the ocean coast at times -
                > and those islands do beckon.
                >
                > I would have thought AS19 went faster than 4.4 knots. Is it faster
                > under sail when the hull is heeled? There's a worry :~?
                >
                > "Mike's boat WAS ventilated with a drilled PVC pipe installed
                > between ports cut in the hull sides." Ah-ha, I wondered what that
                > was. Thought it a kind of rack for stretching occy cords between
                to
                > provide gear stowage, or for pegging up wet things to dry!
                >
                > "Bungee the tiller to weather and sheet the mizzen to the desired
                > attitude, the boat will stay as if parked while you prepare the
                main
                > or have lunch." - that's a very desirable quality :-)
                >
                > You've mentioned many other points, good and bad, that require more
                > pondering. Yet I am reassured in my overall original impressions
                > that this boat could do for me.
                >
                > Thanks again for rounding out the knowledge about this design from
                > your first hand experience. Sounds to me like AS19 has provided you
                > with lots of fun and enjoyment. Great.
                >
                > Cheers
                > Graeme
                >
              • graeme19121984
                ... Way to go - tide, sun, sky... Hi Cabbie: Thanks much for the update. I gather from that reaching performance in less than 10 knots that one of the single
                Message 7 of 26 , Aug 1, 2007
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                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "cabbie_caesar" <cabbie_caesar@...>
                  wrote:
                  > I don't even sail with a watch.


                  Way to go - tide, sun, sky...


                  Hi Cabbie:

                  Thanks much for the update.

                  I gather from that reaching performance in less than 10 knots that
                  one of the single luff flat reaching spinnakers that PCB's fond of
                  wouldn't add very much to speed, and they're not good close hauled.
                  Hmm, even though they look fairly uncomplicated less complexity does
                  the job quite acceptably, hey.

                  > Should I edit my prior post, or will this message be a sufficient
                  > correction?

                  My twopence. IMO there's no need to edit your earlier post. If
                  people are searching the subject in future they'll at least scan the
                  whole thread, I would think.

                  Cheers
                  Graeme
                • John Kohnen
                  Hah! I thought so! You weren t getting the optimum horsepower from the wind when you were clocked. Most people lie about how their boats go _faster_ than
                  Message 8 of 26 , Aug 2, 2007
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                    Hah! I thought so! <g> You weren't getting the optimum horsepower from the
                    wind when you were clocked. Most people lie about how their boats go
                    _faster_ than they really will. ;o) I've been impressed by how well my
                    Jewelbox, Jr. moves in light breezes. In the lightest airs I suspect that
                    the high rig (20' 8" mast) catches some of the stronger breeze above the
                    friction of the water, and the deep rocker has less surface area, and thus
                    skin friction, than a flat-bottom boat with flatter rocker. When the
                    breeze gets a little stronger the "sea of peas" shape kicks in and she
                    moves along real nice but, in moderate breezes at least, I haven't got her
                    past maybe 4.6 knots. <shrug> I'll have to check the batteries in my GPS
                    and take her out on a breezy day on the local mudhole (the Thistle
                    nationals are being held there this week, and every afternoon the wind has
                    been gusting into the mid to high 20 mph range! Probably too much
                    excitement in a racing dinghy <g>). My 15' sailing skiff, with a slightly
                    longer waterline length and much flatter rocker, has little trouble going
                    a little faster than theoretical hull speed (given a good wind, she's
                    undercanvased for use on the windy Oregon Coast), but the JB, Jr.
                    struggles to get past hull speed...

                    A curious thing is how fast Sage goes under power. That 3.5 Tohatsu is
                    more power than she _needs_, but she somehow manages to make us of it.
                    <shrug> I've never got my skiff to go as fast under power as she'll sail,
                    even using a 4 hp. engine, she just wants to dig her stern in... I would
                    have expected that the flatter rockered skiff would outdo the heavily
                    rockered JB, Jr.

                    BTW, I got the Tohatsu because for the same price as a 2 hp. Honda I could
                    get an engine with water cooling and a real (dog) clutch. On Sage, a
                    cruising boat, the extra weight doesn't matter much.

                    On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:49:39 -0700, cabbie wrote:

                    > ...
                    > I do have to clarify my statement about boat speed:
                    >
                    > I do not have a GPS or any other speed measuring equipment; I don't
                    > even sail with a watch.
                    >
                    > The first year I had the boat I was paced by Don S...on his Pearson
                    > 40 something. He reported 4.4 knots, and after thinking about that
                    > day, the wind was light. I was sailing on a close reach in smooth
                    > water on starboard tack; the wind was certainly less than 10 knots,
                    > but I'm not sure how much less. Don did remark that he was quite
                    > impressed with my speed in those conditions.
                    > ...

                    --
                    John <jkohnen@...>
                    All the troubles of man come from his not knowing how to sit
                    still. <Blaise Pascal>
                  • John Kohnen
                    Weight matters, but not as much at displacement speeds. It may take less wind to push a JB, Jr. to hull speed than it does to push a heavier AS19 to hull
                    Message 9 of 26 , Aug 2, 2007
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                      Weight matters, but not as much at displacement speeds. It may take less
                      wind to push a JB, Jr. to hull speed than it does to push a heavier AS19
                      to hull speed, but unless the AS19 is severely undercanvased it shouldn't
                      take a living gale to provide more than enough horsepower to get her
                      there. <g>

                      On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 07:05:23 -0700, Rob R-S wrote:

                      > Weight matters, and I bet Jewelbox is quite a bit lighter that AS19.
                      > Michalak tends to design light compared to Bolger, in general.

                      --
                      John <jkohnen@...>
                      History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in
                      times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant
                      to endure. <Thurgood Marshall>
                    • John Kohnen
                      What s really smokin is the almost 7 knots Bob Larkin s Birdwatcher 2 makes with a 2 hp. Honda! Maybe I m misremembering, but the day he first launched her we
                      Message 10 of 26 , Aug 2, 2007
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                        What's really smokin' is the almost 7 knots Bob Larkin's Birdwatcher 2
                        makes with a 2 hp. Honda! Maybe I'm misremembering, but the day he first
                        launched her we had trouble keeping ahead of her in an overloaded Scandal
                        skiff with 4 hp. <g>

                        http://www.flickr.com/photos/jkohnen/sets/72157594264491186/

                        On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 04:53:13 -0700, graeme wrote:

                        >> BTW, Sage has reached 5.8 knots being pushed by a Tohatsu 3.5 horse
                        >> 4-stroke in calm conditions.
                        >
                        > Gee, that is smokin'

                        --
                        John <jkohnen@...>
                        Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
                        It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
                        <William Pitt>
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