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readability

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  • derbyrm
    The article in the July 1st edition of MAIB shows how easy it is for intelligent people to make a mistake. I took some of the verbiage and plunked it into a
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 4, 2007
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      The article in the July 1st edition of MAIB shows how easy it is for
      intelligent people to make a mistake.

      I took some of the verbiage and plunked it into a Readability Index
      Calculator (Google will find it.). As written, it calls for an education
      level corresponding to five years of post-graduate work. I paraphrased a
      few ideas and got it down to an eighth grade education, the level ascribed
      to Gloucester voters; e.g.,

      In Gloucester the evolutionary process can be moved towards safe and
      competent inshore and offshore fishing vessels that do indeed match the
      challenge of this comprehensive definition of sustainability.

      became

      Gloucester can survive this challenge. We can have enough fish for
      generations to come.


      I'm not surprised that the community has been rejecting their ideas.

      Roger (yes, laziness led me to omit some ideas in the above)
      derbyrm@...
      http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
    • nels
      ... education ... paraphrased a ... ascribed ... Interesting and very astute observations Roger. I offer this quote from Charles post re: his association with
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 4, 2007
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        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
        >
        > The article in the July 1st edition of MAIB shows how easy it is for
        > intelligent people to make a mistake.
        >
        > I took some of the verbiage and plunked it into a Readability Index
        > Calculator (Google will find it.). As written, it calls for an
        education
        > level corresponding to five years of post-graduate work. I
        paraphrased a
        > few ideas and got it down to an eighth grade education, the level
        ascribed
        > to Gloucester voters; e.g.,
        >
        > In Gloucester the evolutionary process can be moved towards safe and
        > competent inshore and offshore fishing vessels that do indeed match the
        > challenge of this comprehensive definition of sustainability.
        >
        > became
        >
        > Gloucester can survive this challenge. We can have enough fish for
        > generations to come.
        >
        >
        > I'm not surprised that the community has been rejecting their ideas.
        >
        > Roger (yes, laziness led me to omit some ideas in the above)
        > derbyrm@...
        > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
        >

        Interesting and very astute observations Roger.

        I offer this quote from Charles' post re:

        his association with Suzanne Attenberg,

        "She does most of the work now. She works with my ship
        forms."

        No doubt Suzanne is a brilliant engineer. I have to wonder sometimes
        if she might tend to "over-engineer" until the original simplicity of
        the design gets lost in a maze of engineering details and fixes for
        things that ain't broke?

        It seems to me that several prospective builders are going back to
        studying the older, simpler designs, perhaps incorporating some of the
        upgrades but not really attracted towards the newest innovations,
        even though some of them are obviously brilliant.

        For example I have heard that several folks are leaning towards a BW
        11/2:-)

        Or maybe there are too many cats in the Design Department?

        Nels
      • derbyrm
        Sign on the wall of one of the many Program Managers offices I ve had to submit to: There comes a time in every project when one must shoot the designer and
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 4, 2007
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          Sign on the wall of one of the many Program Managers' offices I've had to submit to:

          "There comes a time in every project
          when one must
          shoot the designer
          and go into production."

          In an engineer's genes there is the urge for perfection and "just one more thing."

          Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
          derbyrm@...
          http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: nels
          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 11:11 AM
          Subject: [bolger] Re: readability


          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
          >
          > The article in the July 1st edition of MAIB shows how easy it is for
          > intelligent people to make a mistake.
          >
          > I took some of the verbiage and plunked it into a Readability Index
          > Calculator (Google will find it.). As written, it calls for an education
          > level corresponding to five years of post-graduate work. I paraphrased a few ideas and got it down to an eighth grade education, > the level ascribed to Gloucester voters; e.g.,
          >
          > In Gloucester the evolutionary process can be moved towards safe > and competent inshore and offshore fishing vessels that do indeed > match the challenge of this comprehensive definition of > sustainability.
          >
          > became
          >
          > Gloucester can survive this challenge. We can have enough fish for
          > generations to come.
          >
          >
          > I'm not surprised that the community has been rejecting their > ideas.
          >
          > Roger (yes, laziness led me to omit some ideas in the above)
          > derbyrm@...
          > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
          >

          Interesting and very astute observations Roger.

          I offer this quote from Charles' post re:

          his association with Suzanne Attenberg,

          "She does most of the work now. She works with my ship
          forms."

          No doubt Suzanne is a brilliant engineer. I have to wonder sometimes
          if she might tend to "over-engineer" until the original simplicity of
          the design gets lost in a maze of engineering details and fixes for
          things that ain't broke?

          It seems to me that several prospective builders are going back to
          studying the older, simpler designs, perhaps incorporating some of the upgrades but not really attracted towards the newest innovations, even though some of them are obviously brilliant.

          For example I have heard that several folks are leaning towards a BW 11/2:-)

          Or maybe there are too many cats in the Design Department?

          Nels
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bruce Hallman
          ... In my observation, SA shares a lot of the genius we all love from PCB s work. My take on the simplicity question is that my personal favorite period in
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 4, 2007
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            > No doubt Suzanne is a brilliant engineer. I have to wonder sometimes
            > if she might tend to "over-engineer" until the original simplicity of
            > the design gets lost in a maze of engineering details and fixes for
            > things that ain't broke?

            In my observation, SA shares a lot of the genius we all love from
            PCB's work. My take on the 'simplicity question' is that my personal
            favorite period in PCB's design life was the 1970-80's, with his
            collaboration with Dynamite Payson, with the single most elegant
            design being the Tortoise. There is a limit on how many times you can
            design ultra simple plywood boat before you get repetitive. You could
            never ask for so much boat with such ultra simplicity again. In the
            1990's to now, SA and PCB have moved on to more complex boats. Really
            good ones too. So be it. We cannot expect designs of ultra simple
            boats to repeat over and over and over.
          • Kristine Bennett
            Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple of places where the engineer s designed the whole unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 4, 2007
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              Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
              of places where the engineer's designed the whole
              unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
              way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
              and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
              trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
              that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
              welding was blamed for cracked welds.

              At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
              pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
              and let the people on the floor design the parts and
              then let engineering run the numbers!

              I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
              delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
              to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
              and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.

              Blessings Krissie

              --- derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:

              > Sign on the wall of one of the many Program
              > Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
              >
              > "There comes a time in every project
              > when one must
              > shoot the designer
              > and go into production."
              >
              > In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
              > perfection and "just one more thing."
              >
              > Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
              > derbyrm@...
              > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
              >




              ____________________________________________________________________________________
              Be a PS3 game guru.
              Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
              http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
            • Kristine Bennett
              With this idea in mind, did the Bonefish ever make it into a full set of plans? I showed the info I had for it to a friend and he liked the idea for a smaller
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 4, 2007
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                With this idea in mind, did the Bonefish ever make it
                into a full set of plans? I showed the info I had for
                it to a friend and he liked the idea for a smaller
                boat just to play around the islands with. He's
                getting tired of putting 200 plus bucks in the tanks
                of his Bayliner just to play for a weekend. He says
                anytime he splashes his boat he spends 50 to 100 bucks
                in just gas. OUCH! What he has is a 28 or 30 footer.

                I told him just sell the thing and buy a smaller boat.
                He said he was going to sell it and build himself a
                smaller boat. He even liked the Fiddler II, but it was
                a bit to small.

                Blessings Krissie

                > In my observation, SA shares a lot of the genius we
                > all love from
                > PCB's work. My take on the 'simplicity question' is
                > that my personal
                > favorite period in PCB's design life was the
                > 1970-80's, with his
                > collaboration with Dynamite Payson, with the single
                > most elegant
                > design being the Tortoise. There is a limit on how
                > many times you can
                > design ultra simple plywood boat before you get
                > repetitive. You could
                > never ask for so much boat with such ultra
                > simplicity again. In the
                > 1990's to now, SA and PCB have moved on to more
                > complex boats. Really
                > good ones too. So be it. We cannot expect designs
                > of ultra simple
                > boats to repeat over and over and over.
                >




                ____________________________________________________________________________________
                Need a vacation? Get great deals
                to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
                http://travel.yahoo.com/
              • derbyrm
                At GE s Appliance Park I was told that if they tried to produce an electric range according to the drawings, it would not go together. The guys on the shop
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 4, 2007
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                  At GE's Appliance Park I was told that if they tried to produce an electric range according to the drawings, it would not go together. The guys on the shop floor had modified the dies as needed to make things fit. Of course that caused more problems that called for more modifications, et. cetera. There was a long embarrassing silence when I asked how wide a 30" range was and what were the tolerances.

                  I do believe that it's due more to bad management than to bad engineering.

                  There's a horror story about the Piper Tomahawk which was due to manufacturing "redesigning" the plane after it had gotten its airworthiness certificate. Several people died.

                  I used to hang out on the repair line to see what problems were being found and how the guys found them. One very skilled individual had the weirdest theory of electricity I've ever heard, but it worked for him.

                  The best case is when a manufacturing engineer is part of the initial design team.

                  Roger
                  derbyrm@...
                  http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Kristine Bennett
                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 9:26 PM
                  Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability


                  Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
                  of places where the engineer's designed the whole
                  unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
                  way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
                  and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
                  trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
                  that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
                  welding was blamed for cracked welds.

                  At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
                  pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
                  and let the people on the floor design the parts and
                  then let engineering run the numbers!

                  I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
                  delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
                  to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
                  and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.

                  Blessings Krissie

                  --- derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:

                  > Sign on the wall of one of the many Program
                  > Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
                  >
                  > "There comes a time in every project
                  > when one must
                  > shoot the designer
                  > and go into production."
                  >
                  > In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
                  > perfection and "just one more thing."
                  >
                  > Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
                  > derbyrm@...
                  > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                  >

                  __________________________________________________________
                  Be a PS3 game guru.
                  Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
                  http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                  We run into it all the time in home building. A Designer (want to be) was building his owen home and doing it all on a CAD program. First he ordered out
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 4, 2007
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                    We run into it all the time in home building. A Designer (want to be)
                    was building his owen home and doing it all on a CAD program. First
                    he ordered out special siding that was a full 1/2" then 5/4 trim. I
                    told him the siding would stick out past the trim when laped. He
                    thought 5/4 was 1-1/4" not 1". Another thing was 4X4 knee braces
                    holding up a 4X6 trellis with no support where it was nailed to the
                    ply wall. Boats, homers and apliances like everything else when you
                    don't have to think things through and can change them easly things
                    can be screwy. Nothing like haveing something that is fabricated and
                    the directions say to site fit.

                    Jon

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > At GE's Appliance Park I was told that if they tried to produce an
                    electric range according to the drawings, it would not go together.
                    The guys on the shop floor had modified the dies as needed to make
                    things fit. Of course that caused more problems that called for more
                    modifications, et. cetera. There was a long embarrassing silence
                    when I asked how wide a 30" range was and what were the tolerances.
                    >
                    > I do believe that it's due more to bad management than to bad
                    engineering.
                    >
                    > There's a horror story about the Piper Tomahawk which was due to
                    manufacturing "redesigning" the plane after it had gotten its
                    airworthiness certificate. Several people died.
                    >
                    > I used to hang out on the repair line to see what problems were
                    being found and how the guys found them. One very skilled individual
                    had the weirdest theory of electricity I've ever heard, but it worked
                    for him.
                    >
                    > The best case is when a manufacturing engineer is part of the
                    initial design team.
                    >
                    > Roger
                    > derbyrm@...
                    > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                  • Tim Anderson
                    All Engineers should work at least a year as an apprentice in the shops of the field that they are designing for. I ve been asked to build the un-buildable
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
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                      All Engineers should work at least a year as an apprentice in the shops of
                      the field that they are designing for. I've been asked to build the
                      un-buildable Escherist monstrosities by folks with degrees and no practical
                      application practice. TA





                      _____

                      From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      Kristine Bennett
                      Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:26 PM
                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability



                      Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
                      of places where the engineer's designed the whole
                      unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
                      way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
                      and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
                      trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
                      that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
                      welding was blamed for cracked welds.

                      At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
                      pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
                      and let the people on the floor design the parts and
                      then let engineering run the numbers!

                      I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
                      delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
                      to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
                      and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.

                      Blessings Krissie

                      --- derbyrm <derbyrm@insightbb. <mailto:derbyrm%40insightbb.com> com> wrote:

                      > Sign on the wall of one of the many Program
                      > Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
                      >
                      > "There comes a time in every project
                      > when one must
                      > shoot the designer
                      > and go into production."
                      >
                      > In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
                      > perfection and "just one more thing."
                      >
                      > Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
                      > derbyrm@NOSPAMinsig <mailto:derbyrm%40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
                      htbbNOSPAM.com
                      > http://home. <http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm> insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                      >

                      __________________________________________________________
                      Be a PS3 game guru.
                      Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
                      http://videogames. <http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121>
                      yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Bryant Owen
                      During my time as an OMC mechanic I had several calls to the tech department at OMC asking about disassembly and reassembly of parts and units. Once I said
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
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                        During my time as an OMC mechanic I had several calls to the tech
                        department at OMC asking about disassembly and reassembly of parts and
                        units. Once I said "I'd like the guy who designed this to come down
                        here and TRY to take off the assembly and put a new one on". The head
                        of the tech department (guys who did the OMC training) said he's been
                        trying for years to get the engineering guys to come down and "work
                        backwords" from a fully assembled unit. I'd say about half our
                        bulletins were work-arounds developed by guys like me in the field.

                        To relate this to boatbuilding... I now build with the idea that I
                        might need to deconstruct to repair/replace something.

                        Bryant

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Anderson" <lebateautim@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > All Engineers should work at least a year as an apprentice in the
                        shops of
                        > the field that they are designing for. I've been asked to build the
                        > un-buildable Escherist monstrosities by folks with degrees and no
                        practical
                        > application practice. TA
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > _____
                        >
                        > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of
                        > Kristine Bennett
                        > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:26 PM
                        > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
                        > of places where the engineer's designed the whole
                        > unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
                        > way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
                        > and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
                        > trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
                        > that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
                        > welding was blamed for cracked welds.
                        >
                        > At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
                        > pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
                        > and let the people on the floor design the parts and
                        > then let engineering run the numbers!
                        >
                        > I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
                        > delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
                        > to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
                        > and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.
                        >
                        > Blessings Krissie
                        >
                        > --- derbyrm <derbyrm@insightbb. <mailto:derbyrm%40insightbb.com>
                        com> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Sign on the wall of one of the many Program
                        > > Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
                        > >
                        > > "There comes a time in every project
                        > > when one must
                        > > shoot the designer
                        > > and go into production."
                        > >
                        > > In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
                        > > perfection and "just one more thing."
                        > >
                        > > Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
                        > > derbyrm@NOSPAMinsig <mailto:derbyrm%40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
                        > htbbNOSPAM.com
                        > > http://home. <http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm>
                        insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                        > >
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________________
                        > Be a PS3 game guru.
                        > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at
                        Yahoo! Games.
                        > http://videogames.
                        <http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121>
                        > yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • derbyrm
                        That was something GE s Appliance Park did well. The field service types were regularly called in to review/approve design mods and they often caused changes
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
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                          That was something GE's Appliance Park did well. The field service types were regularly called in to review/approve design mods and they often caused changes to be made.

                          You want real serviceability problems, look at some of the homebuilt aircraft. It's not at all unusual to have to cut a hole in the side of the fuselage and jury rig an access panel, just to make an adjustment or replace a bearing.

                          On the other hand I watched the guys in the next dock replace a genset on a Coast Guard Cutter. They cut a hole in the side of the hull, pulled out the equipment and took it away. A few weeks later they came back and put the genset back in. The hole 10' x 6' ??? was then welded shut.

                          Roger (Boy this thread has sure drifted from "writing for your intended audience.")
                          derbyrm@...
                          http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Bryant Owen
                          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 1:11 PM
                          Subject: [bolger] Re: readability


                          During my time as an OMC mechanic I had several calls to the tech
                          department at OMC asking about disassembly and reassembly of parts and
                          units. Once I said "I'd like the guy who designed this to come down
                          here and TRY to take off the assembly and put a new one on". The head
                          of the tech department (guys who did the OMC training) said he's been
                          trying for years to get the engineering guys to come down and "work
                          backwords" from a fully assembled unit. I'd say about half our
                          bulletins were work-arounds developed by guys like me in the field.

                          To relate this to boatbuilding... I now build with the idea that I
                          might need to deconstruct to repair/replace something.

                          Bryant

                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Anderson" <lebateautim@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > All Engineers should work at least a year as an apprentice in the
                          shops of
                          > the field that they are designing for. I've been asked to build the
                          > un-buildable Escherist monstrosities by folks with degrees and no
                          practical
                          > application practice. TA
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > _____
                          >
                          > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of
                          > Kristine Bennett
                          > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:26 PM
                          > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
                          > of places where the engineer's designed the whole
                          > unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
                          > way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
                          > and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
                          > trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
                          > that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
                          > welding was blamed for cracked welds.
                          >
                          > At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
                          > pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
                          > and let the people on the floor design the parts and
                          > then let engineering run the numbers!
                          >
                          > I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
                          > delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
                          > to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
                          > and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.
                          >
                          > Blessings Krissie
                          >
                          > --- derbyrm <derbyrm@insightbb. <mailto:derbyrm%40insightbb.com>
                          com> wrote:
                          >
                          > > Sign on the wall of one of the many Program
                          > > Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
                          > >
                          > > "There comes a time in every project
                          > > when one must
                          > > shoot the designer
                          > > and go into production."
                          > >
                          > > In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
                          > > perfection and "just one more thing."
                          > >
                          > > Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
                          > > derbyrm@NOSPAMinsig <mailto:derbyrm%40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
                          > htbbNOSPAM.com
                          > > http://home. <http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm>
                          insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                          > >
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________________
                          > Be a PS3 game guru.
                          > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at
                          Yahoo! Games.
                          > http://videogames.
                          <http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121>
                          > yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Breton Losch
                          I feel I have to speak out in defense of my engineering brethren. I have had experiences throughout my career of the theoretical only engineer that everyone
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I feel I have to speak out in defense of my engineering brethren.

                            I have had experiences throughout my career of the "theoretical only"
                            engineer that everyone keep complaining about. In fact, the number of these
                            engineers that I encountered in my educational career convinced me to get my
                            Ph.D., just to show that theory and common sense aren't mutually exclusive.
                            My grandfather was an engineer in the coal mines, and I was introduced to
                            the seat-of-your-pants approach to design at an early age. During my
                            teaching stints, I always insisted that my students actually produce a
                            working example in the lab of at least the basic theoretical model, to help
                            with physical intuition. While it's true that man can't design by equation
                            alone, it's also true that through the equations, new approaches can present
                            themselves -- especially ones that seem counter-intuitive.

                            Long story short, you really need a good mix of the theoretical and the
                            practical to get a good design. I fully agree that apprenticeships in a
                            shop/production setting is the best way to get young engineers to develop a
                            feel for the implementation of their designs, and hopefully encourage them
                            to design accordingly. Unfortunately, cost pressures tend to keep many
                            companies from expending the necessary resources to get this training, so a
                            good non-adversarial relationship between the guys on the floor that have
                            been doing this for 30 some odd years and the designers is essential. And,
                            hey, you both can complain about marketing....

                            Bret

                            On 7/5/07, Bryant Owen <mariner@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > During my time as an OMC mechanic I had several calls to the tech
                            > department at OMC asking about disassembly and reassembly of parts and
                            > units. Once I said "I'd like the guy who designed this to come down
                            > here and TRY to take off the assembly and put a new one on". The head
                            > of the tech department (guys who did the OMC training) said he's been
                            > trying for years to get the engineering guys to come down and "work
                            > backwords" from a fully assembled unit. I'd say about half our
                            > bulletins were work-arounds developed by guys like me in the field.
                            >
                            > To relate this to boatbuilding... I now build with the idea that I
                            > might need to deconstruct to repair/replace something.
                            >
                            > Bryant
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com>, "Tim Anderson"
                            > <lebateautim@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > All Engineers should work at least a year as an apprentice in the
                            > shops of
                            > > the field that they are designing for. I've been asked to build the
                            > > un-buildable Escherist monstrosities by folks with degrees and no
                            > practical
                            > > application practice. TA
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > _____
                            > >
                            > > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                            > bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                            > Behalf Of
                            > > Kristine Bennett
                            > > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:26 PM
                            > > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
                            > > of places where the engineer's designed the whole
                            > > unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
                            > > way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
                            > > and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
                            > > trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
                            > > that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
                            > > welding was blamed for cracked welds.
                            > >
                            > > At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
                            > > pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
                            > > and let the people on the floor design the parts and
                            > > then let engineering run the numbers!
                            > >
                            > > I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
                            > > delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
                            > > to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
                            > > and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.
                            > >
                            > > Blessings Krissie
                            > >
                            > > --- derbyrm <derbyrm@insightbb. <mailto:derbyrm% <derbyrm%25>
                            > 40insightbb.com>
                            > com> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > Sign on the wall of one of the many Program
                            > > > Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
                            > > >
                            > > > "There comes a time in every project
                            > > > when one must
                            > > > shoot the designer
                            > > > and go into production."
                            > > >
                            > > > In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
                            > > > perfection and "just one more thing."
                            > > >
                            > > > Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
                            > > > derbyrm@NOSPAMinsig <mailto:derbyrm% <derbyrm%25>
                            > 40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
                            > > htbbNOSPAM.com
                            > > > http://home. <http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm<http://home.insightbb.com/%7Ederbyrm>
                            > >
                            > insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > __________________________________________________________
                            > > Be a PS3 game guru.
                            > > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at
                            > Yahoo! Games.
                            > > http://videogames.
                            > <http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121>
                            > > yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            --
                            "Govern a great nation as you would cook a small fish. Do not overdo it."

                            -- Lao Tzu


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Bryant Owen
                            Well put. You are, of course, absolutely right. Actually I never had that much problem with marketing - but salesmen... Bryant - whose gf was a civil engineer
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Well put. You are, of course, absolutely right. Actually I never had
                              that much problem with marketing - but salesmen...

                              Bryant - whose gf was a civil engineer

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Breton Losch" <b.losch@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I feel I have to speak out in defense of my engineering brethren.
                              >
                              > I have had experiences throughout my career of the "theoretical only"
                              > engineer that everyone keep complaining about. In fact, the number
                              of these
                              > engineers that I encountered in my educational career convinced me
                              to get my
                              > Ph.D., just to show that theory and common sense aren't mutually
                              exclusive.
                              > My grandfather was an engineer in the coal mines, and I was
                              introduced to
                              > the seat-of-your-pants approach to design at an early age. During my
                              > teaching stints, I always insisted that my students actually produce a
                              > working example in the lab of at least the basic theoretical model,
                              to help
                              > with physical intuition. While it's true that man can't design by
                              equation
                              > alone, it's also true that through the equations, new approaches can
                              present
                              > themselves -- especially ones that seem counter-intuitive.
                              >
                              > Long story short, you really need a good mix of the theoretical and the
                              > practical to get a good design. I fully agree that apprenticeships in a
                              > shop/production setting is the best way to get young engineers to
                              develop a
                              > feel for the implementation of their designs, and hopefully
                              encourage them
                              > to design accordingly. Unfortunately, cost pressures tend to keep many
                              > companies from expending the necessary resources to get this
                              training, so a
                              > good non-adversarial relationship between the guys on the floor that
                              have
                              > been doing this for 30 some odd years and the designers is
                              essential. And,
                              > hey, you both can complain about marketing....
                              >
                              > Bret
                              >
                              > On 7/5/07, Bryant Owen <mariner@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > During my time as an OMC mechanic I had several calls to the tech
                              > > department at OMC asking about disassembly and reassembly of parts and
                              > > units. Once I said "I'd like the guy who designed this to come down
                              > > here and TRY to take off the assembly and put a new one on". The head
                              > > of the tech department (guys who did the OMC training) said he's been
                              > > trying for years to get the engineering guys to come down and "work
                              > > backwords" from a fully assembled unit. I'd say about half our
                              > > bulletins were work-arounds developed by guys like me in the field.
                              > >
                              > > To relate this to boatbuilding... I now build with the idea that I
                              > > might need to deconstruct to repair/replace something.
                              > >
                              > > Bryant
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com>, "Tim
                              Anderson"
                              > > <lebateautim@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > All Engineers should work at least a year as an apprentice in the
                              > > shops of
                              > > > the field that they are designing for. I've been asked to build the
                              > > > un-buildable Escherist monstrosities by folks with degrees and no
                              > > practical
                              > > > application practice. TA
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > _____
                              > > >
                              > > > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                              > > bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                              > > Behalf Of
                              > > > Kristine Bennett
                              > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:26 PM
                              > > > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
                              > > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
                              > > > of places where the engineer's designed the whole
                              > > > unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
                              > > > way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
                              > > > and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
                              > > > trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
                              > > > that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
                              > > > welding was blamed for cracked welds.
                              > > >
                              > > > At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
                              > > > pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
                              > > > and let the people on the floor design the parts and
                              > > > then let engineering run the numbers!
                              > > >
                              > > > I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
                              > > > delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
                              > > > to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
                              > > > and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.
                              > > >
                              > > > Blessings Krissie
                              > > >
                              > > > --- derbyrm <derbyrm@insightbb. <mailto:derbyrm% <derbyrm%25>
                              > > 40insightbb.com>
                              > > com> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > > Sign on the wall of one of the many Program
                              > > > > Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > "There comes a time in every project
                              > > > > when one must
                              > > > > shoot the designer
                              > > > > and go into production."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
                              > > > > perfection and "just one more thing."
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
                              > > > > derbyrm@NOSPAMinsig <mailto:derbyrm% <derbyrm%25>
                              > > 40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
                              > > > htbbNOSPAM.com
                              > > > > http://home.
                              <http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm<http://home.insightbb.com/%7Ederbyrm>
                              > > >
                              > > insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > __________________________________________________________
                              > > > Be a PS3 game guru.
                              > > > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at
                              > > Yahoo! Games.
                              > > > http://videogames.
                              > > <http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121>
                              > > > yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --
                              > "Govern a great nation as you would cook a small fish. Do not overdo
                              it."
                              >
                              > -- Lao Tzu
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • derbyrm
                              There was a time when the universities supplied some of the practical education. At the University of Illinois in the 1950s, the Electrical Engineers were
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                There was a time when the universities supplied some of the practical education. At the University of Illinois in the 1950s, the Electrical Engineers were presented with black boxes labeled "Capacitor, 20uF" or "Inductor 35 mH." These were connected together with big jumper cables and the results measured with sterile instruments.

                                But, over in the Physics Department, we students were turned loose in a large room full of World War II surplus components. We first built our own test equipment using soldering irons, screwdrivers and bits of wood. After doing a few "standard" experiments, we then designed our own experiments, conducted those experiments, and reported the results. I remember that my "binary" counter quickly demonstrated that relays had more than two states; "one," "zero," and "Hang on, I'm getting there." This called for quite a drastic redesign of the experiment.

                                Roger
                                derbyrm@...
                                http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Breton Losch
                                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 2:02 PM
                                Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability


                                I feel I have to speak out in defense of my engineering brethren.

                                I have had experiences throughout my career of the "theoretical only" engineer that everyone keep complaining about. In fact, the number of these engineers that I encountered in my educational career convinced me to get my Ph.D., just to show that theory and common sense aren't mutually exclusive. My grandfather was an engineer in the coal mines, and I was introduced to the seat-of-your-pants approach to design at an early age. During my teaching stints, I always insisted that my students actually produce a working example in the lab of at least the basic theoretical model, to help with physical intuition. While it's true that man can't design by equation alone, it's also true that through the equations, new approaches can present
                                themselves -- especially ones that seem counter-intuitive.

                                Long story short, you really need a good mix of the theoretical and the practical to get a good design. I fully agree that apprenticeships in a shop/production setting is the best way to get young engineers to develop a feel for the implementation of their designs, and hopefully encourage them to design accordingly. Unfortunately, cost pressures tend to keep many companies from expending the necessary resources to get this training, so a good non-adversarial relationship between the guys on the floor that have been doing this for 30 some odd years and the designers is essential. And, hey, you both can complain about marketing....

                                Bret

                                On 7/5/07, Bryant Owen <mariner@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > During my time as an OMC mechanic I had several calls to the tech
                                > department at OMC asking about disassembly and reassembly of parts and units. Once I said "I'd like the guy who designed this to come down here and TRY to take off the assembly and put a new one on". The head of the tech department (guys who did the OMC training) said he's been trying for years to get the engineering guys to come down and "work backwords" from a fully assembled unit. I'd say about half our bulletins were work-arounds developed by guys like me in the field.
                                >
                                > To relate this to boatbuilding... I now build with the idea that I
                                > might need to deconstruct to repair/replace something.
                                >
                                > Bryant
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com>, "Tim Anderson"
                                > <lebateautim@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > All Engineers should work at least a year as an apprentice in the
                                > shops of the field that they are designing for. I've been asked to build the un-buildable Escherist monstrosities by folks with degrees and no practical application practice. TA
                                > >
                                > > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of Kristine Bennett
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:26 PM
                                > > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com <bolger%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability
                                > >
                                > > Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
                                > > of places where the engineer's designed the whole
                                > > unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
                                > > way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
                                > > and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
                                > > trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
                                > > that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
                                > > welding was blamed for cracked welds.
                                > >
                                > > At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
                                > > pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
                                > > and let the people on the floor design the parts and
                                > > then let engineering run the numbers!
                                > >
                                > > I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
                                > > delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
                                > > to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
                                > > and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.
                                > >
                                > > Blessings Krissie
                                > >
                                > > --- derbyrm derbyrm@...
                                > >
                                > > > Sign on the wall of one of the many Program
                                > > > Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
                                > > >
                                > > > "There comes a time in every project
                                > > > when one must
                                > > > shoot the designer
                                > > > and go into production."
                                > > >
                                > > > In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
                                > > > perfection and "just one more thing."
                                > > >
                                > > > Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • gilberj55
                                We all probably have stories about highly educated people who have proven themselves complete idiots when faced with a real problem, and the best stories
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  We all probably have stories about highly educated people who have
                                  proven themselves complete idiots when faced with a "real" problem,
                                  and the best stories involve stupidities relating ones own field.
                                  The most recent that I have to recount....
                                  My friend a Navel Architect was for a time at the National Research
                                  Centre test facility in Newfoundland. As he did not hold a Phd he was
                                  considered just one of the help. One woman with a Phd in Ocean
                                  engineering was in a dinghy in the test tank to make some adjustment
                                  to the half million dollar model, could not figure how to use the
                                  oars or paddle and ended up damaging the model and swamping the dighy
                                  and having to swim for it.....

                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Anderson" <lebateautim@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > All Engineers should work at least a year as an apprentice in the
                                  shops of
                                  > the field that they are designing for. I've been asked to build the
                                  > un-buildable Escherist monstrosities by folks with degrees and no
                                  practical
                                  > application practice. TA
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  > From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On
                                  Behalf Of
                                  > Kristine Bennett
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 6:26 PM
                                  > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Funny you should bring this up! I have worked a couple
                                  > of places where the engineer's designed the whole
                                  > unit. Guess what they wanted welds where there was no
                                  > way you could put a weld. Or they went to smaller pins
                                  > and they left the pin boss the same OD so you were
                                  > trying to weld 1/8 sq. tube to 5/8 wall pin bosses
                                  > that were in the very ends of the tubes. Mind you the
                                  > welding was blamed for cracked welds.
                                  >
                                  > At times I think it's best to wrap the engineer up in
                                  > pallet wrap and gag them, then put them in the corner
                                  > and let the people on the floor design the parts and
                                  > then let engineering run the numbers!
                                  >
                                  > I also have one friend that is an engineer and I
                                  > delite in proving him wrong when ever I can. I do have
                                  > to say he has come to me on a few projects for help
                                  > and ideas on how to make something better/simpler.
                                  >
                                  > Blessings Krissie
                                  >
                                  > --- derbyrm <derbyrm@insightbb. <mailto:derbyrm%40insightbb.com>
                                  com> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Sign on the wall of one of the many Program
                                  > > Managers' offices I've had to submit to:
                                  > >
                                  > > "There comes a time in every project
                                  > > when one must
                                  > > shoot the designer
                                  > > and go into production."
                                  > >
                                  > > In an engineer's genes there is the urge for
                                  > > perfection and "just one more thing."
                                  > >
                                  > > Roger (I know 'cause I are one.)
                                  > > derbyrm@NOSPAMinsig <mailto:derbyrm%40NOSPAMinsightbbNOSPAM.com>
                                  > htbbNOSPAM.com
                                  > > http://home. <http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm>
                                  insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > __________________________________________________________
                                  > Be a PS3 game guru.
                                  > Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at
                                  Yahoo! Games.
                                  > http://videogames. <http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?
                                  platform=120121>
                                  > yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • Kristine Bennett
                                  That s amost as good as Dad finding 3 yes Three! piolts out on one of the back country strips that had been there 5 or 6 day with no food. They had left the
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jul 5, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    That's amost as good as Dad finding 3 yes Three!
                                    piolts out on one of the back country strips that had
                                    been there 5 or 6 day with no food. They had left the
                                    master switch on to play the radio and the battery
                                    went dead!

                                    Hmmm aircraft engines have a pair of mags to you have
                                    your spark and you can hand prop the engine to start
                                    it.

                                    Like Dad said these guys had more sheep skins hanging
                                    on their walls then he could read! Yep being hands on
                                    is a lot better way to learn stuff. Also you tend not
                                    to make the same mistake very many times!

                                    Paws

                                    --- gilberj55 <gilberj55@...> wrote:

                                    > We all probably have stories about highly educated
                                    > people who have
                                    > proven themselves complete idiots when faced with a
                                    > "real" problem,
                                    > and the best stories involve stupidities relating
                                    > ones own field.
                                    > The most recent that I have to recount....
                                    > My friend a Navel Architect was for a time at the
                                    > National Research
                                    > Centre test facility in Newfoundland. As he did not
                                    > hold a Phd he was
                                    > considered just one of the help. One woman with a
                                    > Phd in Ocean
                                    > engineering was in a dinghy in the test tank to make
                                    > some adjustment
                                    > to the half million dollar model, could not figure
                                    > how to use the
                                    > oars or paddle and ended up damaging the model and
                                    > swamping the dighy
                                    > and having to swim for it.....
                                    >



                                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                    Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
                                    http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
                                  • Chester Young
                                    This last year we hired a 6 year engineering student from Florida Atlantic University. We are still struggling with teaching him to write sentences that make
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jul 6, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      This last year we hired a 6 year engineering student from Florida Atlantic
                                      University. We are still struggling with teaching him to write sentences
                                      that make sense when read aloud. Never mind the comments on common sense.
                                      Many of the larger universities have turned into puppy mills for who ever is
                                      the largest donor; it is my understanding that with FAU it is Lockheed
                                      Martin who scoops up the majority of graduates.
                                      We are having the same issue with a biologist with a master degree. This
                                      country is in a sad state of affairs regarding education.



                                      Caloosarat

                                      A high school graduate, now playing the part of vice president of an
                                      engineering firm, imagine that.



                                      _____


                                      Like Dad said these guys had more sheep skins hanging
                                      on their walls then he could read! Yep being hands on
                                      is a lot better way to learn stuff. Also you tend not
                                      to make the same mistake very many times!

                                      Paws






                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • derbyrm
                                      Well, the aircraft yarn is a bit iffy. Due to liability, most flight schools teach that one should never prop an aircraft -- too dangerous. The fellow in the
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jul 6, 2007
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                                        Well, the aircraft yarn is a bit iffy. Due to liability, most flight schools teach that one should never prop an aircraft -- too dangerous.

                                        The fellow in the next hanger had a Pitts with an IO-540. He ran his battery down after refueling at the gas pumps and could find no one who'd try propping it until I came around. A hot 540 is a bear to start even with a good battery, and the "flipping" went on and on. (Note that flipping that large an engine is a full body thrust.) The danger is that one gets into a rhythm. Pull and fall back, recover and repeat. Hot, sweaty, tired. When the engine finally catches, you're lunging forward for the next pull.

                                        Losing your head in the wilderness is no problem, but they might have lost a hand or arm.

                                        Smaller engines are no problem. My 80 cubic inch Aeronca didn't even have a starter, but much over 300 cubes is a challenge.

                                        Roger
                                        derbyrm@...
                                        http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Kristine Bennett
                                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 1:11 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: readability


                                        That's amost as good as Dad finding 3 yes Three!
                                        piolts out on one of the back country strips that had
                                        been there 5 or 6 day with no food. They had left the
                                        master switch on to play the radio and the battery
                                        went dead!

                                        Hmmm aircraft engines have a pair of mags to you have
                                        your spark and you can hand prop the engine to start
                                        it.
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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • ANDREW AIREY
                                        It s an old problem.I remember seeing an article in a railway magazine in the 1950 s by an old engine driver saying that the design office should build the
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jul 8, 2007
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                                          It's an old problem.I remember seeing an article in a
                                          railway magazine in the 1950's by an old engine driver
                                          saying that the design office should build the first
                                          locomotive of a new class,operate it for 6 months and
                                          then go back to the drawing board.It should be
                                          compulsory for the designer of any prodct to do that -
                                          automobiles in particular - to do that,or the prodct
                                          be labelled that it is designed to be thrown away
                                          cheers
                                          Andy Airey

                                          Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
                                        • derbyrm
                                          The news shows lately have been reporting the results of a study that says men talk just as much as women. Ha! I took the gist of the idea below and faxed it
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jul 9, 2007
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                                            The news shows lately have been reporting the results of a study that says men talk just as much as women. Ha!

                                            I took the gist of the idea below and faxed it to Suzanne. Last night she phoned a little after ten pm. I displayed my brilliance by listening without argument to everything she said. We hung up about midnight.

                                            Note that this was a "cold call" for her. We've never met nor talked.

                                            She dismissed the idea that Dale Carnegie's ideas would have any benefit for them, but I was reminded that "Let the other person do most of the talking." is one of their key sales points.

                                            I actually do agree with most of her points, but I'm very pessimistic about saving the Gloucester fishing fleet.

                                            Roger
                                            derbyrm@...
                                            http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: derbyrm
                                            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 10:00 AM
                                            Subject: [bolger] readability


                                            The article in the July 1st edition of MAIB shows how easy it is for
                                            intelligent people to make a mistake.

                                            I took some of the verbiage and plunked it into a Readability Index
                                            Calculator (Google will find it.). As written, it calls for an education
                                            level corresponding to five years of post-graduate work. I paraphrased a
                                            few ideas and got it down to an eighth grade education, the level ascribed
                                            to Gloucester voters; e.g.,

                                            In Gloucester the evolutionary process can be moved towards safe and
                                            competent inshore and offshore fishing vessels that do indeed match the
                                            challenge of this comprehensive definition of sustainability.

                                            became

                                            Gloucester can survive this challenge. We can have enough fish for
                                            generations to come.

                                            I'm not surprised that the community has been rejecting their ideas.

                                            Roger (yes, laziness led me to omit some ideas in the above)
                                            derbyrm@...
                                            http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm




                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • graeme19121984
                                            Crikey, next it ll be that men listen as much too! ... says men talk just as much as women. Ha!
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jul 9, 2007
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                                              Crikey, next it'll be that men listen as much too!


                                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > The news shows lately have been reporting the results of a study that
                                              says men talk just as much as women. Ha!
                                            • graeme19121984
                                              Future community and fishing sustainability: forward contracts and futures? http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1971725.htm#transcript
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jul 9, 2007
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                                                Future community and fishing sustainability: forward contracts and
                                                futures?

                                                http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1971725.htm#transcript
                                              • Bill Kreamer
                                                http://www.abc. net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1971725.htm#transcript What an
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jul 10, 2007
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                                                  http://www.abc
                                                  <http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1971725.htm#transcript>
                                                  net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1971725.htm#transcript



                                                  What an eye opener. How indeed about instituting forward contracts and
                                                  futures as fishing-effort stabilizers? Larger-fish limits and protected
                                                  areas as fish-population insurance?



                                                  _____

                                                  From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                                  graeme19121984
                                                  Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 9:25 PM
                                                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [bolger] Re: readability



                                                  Future community and fishing sustainability: forward contracts and
                                                  futures?

                                                  http://www.abc
                                                  <http://www.abc.net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1971725.htm#transcript>
                                                  net.au/rn/scienceshow/stories/2007/1971725.htm#transcript





                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Michael Childs
                                                  This is a lot more readable. Just one more thing: how do we access the photos mentioned in one of the Micro letters?   Michael Childs 415 828 9663 - 626 799
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Nov 4, 2012
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    This is a lot more readable. Just one more thing: how do we access the photos mentioned in one of the Micro letters?
                                                     
                                                    Michael Childs
                                                    415 828 9663 - 626 799 9796
                                                    www.michaelchilds.com
                                                    michael_v_childs@...
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