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Polyurethane Glues and Watervan

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  • Tim Anderson
    I’m setting up to build Watervan and one of my structural mods is to build the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and will be using PL of Gorilla
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 29, 2007
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      I’m setting up to build Watervan and one of my structural mods is to build
      the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and will be using PL of
      Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what does this group think of
      the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has built or owns a Watervan?




      Tim P Anderson



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • echo172@comcast.net
      Fine woodworking mag did a piece on glues don t know if it s online but titebond 3 is waaaay better. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 29, 2007
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        Fine woodworking mag did a piece on glues don't know if it's online but titebond 3 is waaaay better.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
        Over rated and over priced. The only place it is better then epoxy is glueing endgrain. For my money stick to epoxy you have more controll and work time. Jon
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 29, 2007
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          Over rated and over priced. The only place it is better then epoxy is
          glueing endgrain. For my money stick to epoxy you have more controll
          and work time.

          Jon

          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Anderson" <lebateautim@...> wrote:
          >
          > I'm setting up to build Watervan and one of my structural mods is
          to build
          > the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and will be using
          PL of
          > Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what does this group
          think of
          > the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has built or owns a
          Watervan?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Tim P Anderson
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Kenneth Grome
          I don t have the plans so I cannot see what Bolger recommends, but you said you are modifying the structure, so my big question is why? Can t you build the
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 29, 2007
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            I don't have the plans so I cannot see what Bolger recommends, but you said
            you are modifying the structure, so my big question is why? Can't you build
            the deck according to plans then glue the foam onto it later?

            Epoxy is considered best and most reliable for non-experts to use when gluing
            wood. Gorilla Glue fails in test cases when you might think it wouldn't.
            I've seen some bad reports on this glue, and I would not trust it myself.
            Then again, this is not my boat ...

            Sincerely,
            Ken Grome
            Bagacay Boatworks
            www.bagacayboatworks.com





            > I'm setting up to build Watervan and one of my structural mods is to build
            > the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and will be using PL of
            > Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what does this group think
            > of the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has built or owns a
            > Watervan?
          • Paul
            I use two glues in boat building. Epoxy for most stuff and plastic resin glue for areas where two perfectly flat pieces are joined such as framing wood on a
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 29, 2007
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              I use two glues in boat building. Epoxy for most stuff and plastic
              resin glue for areas where two perfectly flat pieces are joined such
              as framing wood on a bulkhead. Epoxy is nice in that it fills gaps
              and I am using it for sealing the wood as well as glassing the
              exterior.

              Plastic resin glue, especially for things like building up frames on
              bulkheads is much cheaper but really needs a perfect fitting joint.
              It is waterproof and very strong. The powder can be mixed up easily
              in tiny batches. I use a small electronic scale from Harbor Freight
              for both plastic resin and for small batches of epoxy.

              Paul H.

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Grome <bagacayboatworks@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I don't have the plans so I cannot see what Bolger recommends, but
              you said
              > you are modifying the structure, so my big question is why? Can't
              you build
              > the deck according to plans then glue the foam onto it later?
              >
              > Epoxy is considered best and most reliable for non-experts to use
              when gluing
              > wood. Gorilla Glue fails in test cases when you might think it
              wouldn't.
              > I've seen some bad reports on this glue, and I would not trust it
              myself.
              > Then again, this is not my boat ...
              >
              > Sincerely,
              > Ken Grome
              > Bagacay Boatworks
              > www.bagacayboatworks.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > > I'm setting up to build Watervan and one of my structural mods
              is to build
              > > the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and will be
              using PL of
              > > Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what does this
              group think
              > > of the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has built or
              owns a
              > > Watervan?
              >
            • Kristine Bennett
              I know there is one couple that has built one. I just can t remember who. THe draw back to useing the Urethane glues is you can t be sure you have a 100% bond
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 29, 2007
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                I know there is one couple that has built one. I just
                can't remember who.

                THe draw back to useing the Urethane glues is you
                can't be sure you have a 100% bond over the whole
                area. Myself I would use mildly thickend epoxy and
                then vacumebag the foam to the ply. If you use slow
                epoxy you can bond the ply to both sides at one time.
                You just need a "mold" for the panel to form to and if
                it's not right the first time you are not going to
                change it after every thing has set.

                You are planing on doing the same thing I am when I
                get around to work on my Cruseahome hull.

                Anyplace you are going to have an opening besure to
                frame it in first and fill the void in the middle with
                a block of foam. To keep the ply caving in at the
                void.

                You are likely to spend more $$$$ on the PL then going
                with Epoxy.

                Mind you this is just my slant on things....

                You could try useing Tightbond 3 and bag it as well.
                But I think epoxy may be your best bet.

                Krissie

                --- Tim Anderson <lebateautim@...> wrote:

                > I’m setting up to build Watervan and one of my
                > structural mods is to build
                > the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and
                > will be using PL of
                > Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what
                > does this group think of
                > the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has
                > built or owns a Watervan?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Tim P Anderson
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > removed]
                >
                >




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              • Kristine Bennett
                Tim I should also say I use to build fiberglass boats for a living. With that said here are the reasons why I say vacum bag it, and use epoxy. I have set a lot
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 29, 2007
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                  Tim I should also say I use to build fiberglass boats
                  for a living. With that said here are the reasons why
                  I say vacum bag it, and use epoxy.

                  I have set a lot of core and no matter how hard you
                  try you are going to get voids if you roll it or put
                  weights on it. When you bag it you get a much more
                  even pressure over the whole area. Also if you mix
                  the epoxy so it will still sag and not stuff it will
                  move and try to fill any voids that are there.

                  The down side is you need to have a VERY GOOD SEAL
                  over the whole area. Say you are doing the cabin top,
                  fill and tape all the plywood seams so they are air
                  tight! Frame in any openening and you may want to tab
                  them in so they don't move. Fit your foam and then
                  fit your top layer of ply.

                  Remove all the ply and foam and wet out the ply with
                  epoxy then use a notched trowle and spread your epoxy
                  slurry place your foam and where you ply seams are
                  place a prewet out fiberglass tape where your seams
                  land on the top of your foam slurry you foam and then
                  prime the bottom of your top ply and place them on top
                  and you may need to use a few nails to hold them in
                  place. Then seal the bag and pull vac to some where
                  around 10 to 15 inches of Hg.

                  I forgot to tell you when you fit your foam do it one
                  of two ways as say 4 to 6 inch squares or by putting
                  holes in it every 4 to 6 inches.

                  Also in your top ply you are going to want to drill
                  small vent holes say every Sq. foot or so as well.

                  What to bag it with 10 or 12 mil clear poly works fine
                  you are also going to need a bleader cloth and the
                  orange or black safty fence works great. Epoxy doesn't
                  stick to it.

                  The big thing is to get a good seal and keep it sealed
                  will it has cured.

                  I hope this has helped I know it sounds imposing but
                  it's not.

                  For a vac pump use a compressor out of an old frig or
                  frezzer. I put a gas filter in my vac line to help
                  keep the crap out of the pump

                  I made my vac pump out of an old 70s Ford AC
                  compresser and it will pull 28 inches of Hg.

                  I've had a couple people tell me I should do a demo
                  and take photos. Show people how to do things quick
                  and dirty. Also on the cheap side of things as well.

                  I hoped this has helped you Tim
                  Krissie

                  --- Tim Anderson <lebateautim@...> wrote:

                  > I’m setting up to build Watervan and one of my
                  > structural mods is to build
                  > the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and
                  > will be using PL of
                  > Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what
                  > does this group think of
                  > the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has
                  > built or owns a Watervan?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Tim P Anderson
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >





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                • Bryant Owen
                  AFAIK the only two Watervans have been built. One is in Australia and the other was built in New Jersey by Steve Guterman and George Mindos. They were at the
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 29, 2007
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                    AFAIK the only two Watervans have been built. One is in Australia and
                    the other was built in New Jersey by Steve Guterman and George Mindos.
                    They were at the Kingston ON Messabout in 2007. See Duckworks
                    somewhere for pics. I'd think Steve would be pretty willing to answer
                    questions. Terrific boat.

                    And IIRC Peter Lenihan of Windemere fame did a ply/foam sandwich for
                    some of his construction. I think Peter did a lot of thinking and
                    research before doing what he did (can't remember but I suspect
                    epoxy). Peter?

                    Bryant

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I know there is one couple that has built one. I just
                    > can't remember who.
                    >
                    > THe draw back to useing the Urethane glues is you
                    > can't be sure you have a 100% bond over the whole
                    > area. Myself I would use mildly thickend epoxy and
                    > then vacumebag the foam to the ply. If you use slow
                    > epoxy you can bond the ply to both sides at one time.
                    > You just need a "mold" for the panel to form to and if
                    > it's not right the first time you are not going to
                    > change it after every thing has set.
                    >
                    > You are planing on doing the same thing I am when I
                    > get around to work on my Cruseahome hull.
                    >
                    > Anyplace you are going to have an opening besure to
                    > frame it in first and fill the void in the middle with
                    > a block of foam. To keep the ply caving in at the
                    > void.
                    >
                    > You are likely to spend more $$$$ on the PL then going
                    > with Epoxy.
                    >
                    > Mind you this is just my slant on things....
                    >
                    > You could try useing Tightbond 3 and bag it as well.
                    > But I think epoxy may be your best bet.
                    >
                    > Krissie
                    >
                    > --- Tim Anderson <lebateautim@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > I'm setting up to build Watervan and one of my
                    > > structural mods is to build
                    > > the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and
                    > > will be using PL of
                    > > Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what
                    > > does this group think of
                    > > the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has
                    > > built or owns a Watervan?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Tim P Anderson
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    > > removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • Tim Anderson
                    Yes, Kristine, I agree 100%, Yes, I’ll vacuum bag it, cool tip on the safety fence. This is my 37th boat project, most of them cold-molded or ply with one or
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 29, 2007
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                      Yes, Kristine, I agree 100%, Yes, I’ll vacuum bag it, cool tip on the safety
                      fence. This is my 37th boat project, most of them cold-molded or ply with
                      one or two C-flex Shrimpboats for good measure and I’ve become sensitized to
                      the epoxies. I’ll still be glassing the exterior with epoxy, I’m just
                      looking for an alternative adhesive for the basic structure. I am going with
                      the foam core because I gain insulation in the process of both lightening
                      and stiffening the overall deck. Tim P Anderson



                      _____

                      From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      Kristine Bennett
                      Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 7:49 PM
                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [bolger] Polyurethane Glues and Watervan



                      Tim I should also say I use to build fiberglass boats
                      for a living. With that said here are the reasons why
                      I say vacum bag it, and use epoxy.

                      I have set a lot of core and no matter how hard you
                      try you are going to get voids if you roll it or put
                      weights on it. When you bag it you get a much more
                      even pressure over the whole area. Also if you mix
                      the epoxy so it will still sag and not stuff it will
                      move and try to fill any voids that are there.

                      The down side is you need to have a VERY GOOD SEAL
                      over the whole area. Say you are doing the cabin top,
                      fill and tape all the plywood seams so they are air
                      tight! Frame in any openening and you may want to tab
                      them in so they don't move. Fit your foam and then
                      fit your top layer of ply.

                      Remove all the ply and foam and wet out the ply with
                      epoxy then use a notched trowle and spread your epoxy
                      slurry place your foam and where you ply seams are
                      place a prewet out fiberglass tape where your seams
                      land on the top of your foam slurry you foam and then
                      prime the bottom of your top ply and place them on top
                      and you may need to use a few nails to hold them in
                      place. Then seal the bag and pull vac to some where
                      around 10 to 15 inches of Hg.

                      I forgot to tell you when you fit your foam do it one
                      of two ways as say 4 to 6 inch squares or by putting
                      holes in it every 4 to 6 inches.

                      Also in your top ply you are going to want to drill
                      small vent holes say every Sq. foot or so as well.

                      What to bag it with 10 or 12 mil clear poly works fine
                      you are also going to need a bleader cloth and the
                      orange or black safty fence works great. Epoxy doesn't
                      stick to it.

                      The big thing is to get a good seal and keep it sealed
                      will it has cured.

                      I hope this has helped I know it sounds imposing but
                      it's not.

                      For a vac pump use a compressor out of an old frig or
                      frezzer. I put a gas filter in my vac line to help
                      keep the crap out of the pump

                      I made my vac pump out of an old 70s Ford AC
                      compresser and it will pull 28 inches of Hg.

                      I've had a couple people tell me I should do a demo
                      and take photos. Show people how to do things quick
                      and dirty. Also on the cheap side of things as well.

                      I hoped this has helped you Tim
                      Krissie

                      --- Tim Anderson <lebateautim@ <mailto:lebateautim%40earthlink.net>
                      earthlink.net> wrote:

                      > I’m setting up to build Watervan and one of my
                      > structural mods is to build
                      > the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and
                      > will be using PL of
                      > Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what
                      > does this group think of
                      > the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has
                      > built or owns a Watervan?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Tim P Anderson
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > removed]
                      >
                      >

                      __________________________________________________________
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                      Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
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                      yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Kristine Bennett
                      Yes having that many projects under your belt is a good thing. I also understand your wishing to find something other to use then epoxy seeing how you are
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 30, 2007
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                        Yes having that many projects under your belt is a
                        good thing.

                        I also understand your wishing to find something other
                        to use then epoxy seeing how you are sensitized to it.
                        So when you do use it look at the 1 to 1 or 2 to 1
                        epoxys. I understand they are less toxic then the 5 to
                        1s. But face it toxic is a relative term!! It's all
                        bad for us!

                        Also for a bleeder cloth burlap works very well as
                        well. I have used it a number of times, if you are
                        working small parts like for an aircraft cheap paper
                        towles work even better.

                        With as much stuff I have worked with over the years
                        I'm suprised I have not become sensitized to the
                        stuff. But I was also one to be careful after I found
                        out about all the "bad stuff" what was in the resins
                        we were useing.

                        As much as I want to build a boat and be on the water,
                        waning to be flying has the edge and that's why we
                        will be working on the aircraft.

                        That's what happens when you are rased around work
                        Boats and Aircraft and old cars! And yes I have a love
                        for all three! My last car to buy is a 66 dodge one
                        ton truck. The owner neededsome work done that he
                        didn't have the skills to do and I did. I also needed
                        a TRUCK to haul stuff, so why not get an oldde and a
                        goodie.

                        Blessings Krissie

                        --- Tim Anderson <lebateautim@...> wrote:

                        > Yes, Kristine, I agree 100%, Yes, I’ll vacuum bag
                        > it, cool tip on the safety
                        > fence. This is my 37th boat project, most of them
                        > cold-molded or ply with
                        > one or two C-flex Shrimpboats for good measure and
                        > I’ve become sensitized to
                        > the epoxies. I’ll still be glassing the exterior
                        > with epoxy, I’m just
                        > looking for an alternative adhesive for the basic
                        > structure. I am going with
                        > the foam core because I gain insulation in the
                        > process of both lightening
                        > and stiffening the overall deck. Tim P Anderson
                        >
                        >



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                      • Peter Lenihan
                        ... to build ... PL of ... group think of ... Watervan? Hello Tim, I have neither built a Watervan nor used PU glues.However,on board Windermere,which is
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 1, 2007
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                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Anderson" <lebateautim@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > I'm setting up to build Watervan and one of my structural mods is
                          to build
                          > the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and will be using
                          PL of
                          > Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what does this
                          group think of
                          > the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has built or owns a
                          Watervan?


                          Hello Tim,

                          I have neither built a Watervan nor used PU glues.However,on
                          board Windermere,which is insulated with 2"blue Styrofoam on both
                          hull sides and roof structure(foam-cored construction),Bolger does
                          specify using epoxy as the adhesive of choice.Part of the reasoning
                          for this choice being that you effectively end up "saturating" both
                          the inside and outside surfaces of the plywood with epoxy(as
                          pretains to the hull structure) and creat an effective water barrier
                          on the roof structure against condensation borne rot between
                          laminates.
                          Hope this helps and encourages you to move forward with a
                          Watervan.A lovely water camper and gunkholer!

                          Sincerely,

                          Peter Lenihan
                        • Gene T
                          Tim, Ok, I m way late, way behind in reading but.. PU glue would be good for this situation. Large area, small stress. Although it ain t cheep. Make sure
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 18, 2007
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                            Tim,
                            Ok, I'm way late, way behind in reading but.. PU glue would be good for this situation. Large area, small stress. Although it ain't cheep. Make sure it doesn't melt the foam. How would Titebond 2 or 3 work with foam. Good I think. But not as quick. And, yeah I'd like a Watervan, in a big way. Its just to far down on my list...

                            Sincerely, Gene T.

                            "A house ashore is but a boat, so poorly
                            built it will not float ---- "

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Tim Anderson <lebateautim@...>
                            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 4:36:40 PM
                            Subject: [bolger] Polyurethane Glues and Watervan













                            I�m setting up to build Watervan and one of my structural mods is to build

                            the deck as a foam-cored Joubert � ply sandwich and will be using PL of

                            Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what does this group think of

                            the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has built or owns a Watervan?



                            Tim P Anderson



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]














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                          • Tim Anderson
                            Thanks, I ve done some tests on polyurethane and titebond 3 and they both seem to work well. I m stretching Watervan by 4 feet to fit the max of my trailer and
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jul 18, 2007
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                              Thanks, I've done some tests on polyurethane and titebond 3 and they both
                              seem to work well. I'm stretching Watervan by 4 feet to fit the max of my
                              trailer and to accommodate my computer video editing work station and
                              microscope... and to give a little more room for wife #5 when I locate her.
                              TA

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              Gene T
                              Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 5:12 PM
                              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [bolger] Polyurethane Glues and Watervan

                              Tim,
                              Ok, I'm way late, way behind in reading but.. PU glue would be good for
                              this situation. Large area, small stress. Although it ain't cheep. Make
                              sure it doesn't melt the foam. How would Titebond 2 or 3 work with foam.
                              Good I think. But not as quick. And, yeah I'd like a Watervan, in a big
                              way. Its just to far down on my list...

                              Sincerely, Gene T.

                              "A house ashore is but a boat, so poorly
                              built it will not float ---- "

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: Tim Anderson <lebateautim@...>
                              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 4:36:40 PM
                              Subject: [bolger] Polyurethane Glues and Watervan













                              I’m setting up to build Watervan and one of my structural mods
                              is to build

                              the deck as a foam-cored Joubert ¼ ply sandwich and will be using PL of

                              Gorilla glue to adhere the foam to ply layers; what does this group think of

                              the PU glues? Is there anyone on this list who has built or owns a Watervan?



                              Tim P Anderson



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                              Bolger rules!!!
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                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • Kristine Bennett
                              Tim I like the Watervan and the smaller Fiddler II. The only draw back to me is no aft deck space. I showed a friend the WaterVan and he said it would make a
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jul 19, 2007
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                                Tim I like the Watervan and the smaller Fiddler II.
                                The only draw back to me is no aft deck space.

                                I showed a friend the WaterVan and he said it would
                                make a great water based pickup truck. I gave him the
                                info to get in touch with PBAF

                                Blessings Krissie

                                --- Tim Anderson <lebateautim@...> wrote:

                                > Thanks, I've done some tests on polyurethane and
                                > titebond 3 and they both
                                > seem to work well. I'm stretching Watervan by 4 feet
                                > to fit the max of my
                                > trailer and to accommodate my computer video editing
                                > work station and
                                > microscope... and to give a little more room for
                                > wife #5 when I locate her.
                                > TA
                                >
                                ==




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