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delamination of resin and plywood

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  • mark
    What do I do now? I built two wooden hulls for a pontoon boat (not bolger) and moved the completed boat out side and then we got some rain which got into the
    Message 1 of 23 , Jun 24, 2007
      What do I do now?

      I built two wooden hulls for a pontoon boat (not bolger) and moved the
      completed boat out side and then we got some rain which got into the
      hulls and now the resin is coming off the ply wood. I took the two
      pontoons back off the deck and using a chisel I am able to remove both
      the paint and the resin dollar bill size chunks.

      I did not use glass! only resin. Should I clean up the wood, and glass
      and resin again and make sure the top is water tight before I remount
      the hulls.

      What type resin is best, epoxy, poly-u ? What weight glass, woven,
      biderectional?


      thanks
    • Kenneth Grome
      Polyester and vinylester resins are NOT adhesives so they should not be used on wood. Sure, some people report no problems with this approach and they preach
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 24, 2007
        Polyester and vinylester resins are NOT adhesives so they should not be used
        on wood.

        Sure, some people report no problems with this approach and they preach that
        it's okay to do this ... but lots of others have had serious problems with
        it -- maybe not immediately like you did, but several years later.

        If you're building in wood you should always use EPOXY. If you're building in
        fiberglass use epoxy (always better) or an -ester (usually cheaper).

        It wouldn't hurt to buy a tarp and keep the boat covered and dry too ... :)

        Sincerely,
        Ken Grome
        Bagacay Boatworks
        www.bagacayboatworks.com




        > I built two wooden hulls for a pontoon boat (not bolger) and moved the
        > completed boat out side and then we got some rain which got into the
        > hulls and now the resin is coming off the ply wood. I took the two
        > pontoons back off the deck and using a chisel I am able to remove both
        > the paint and the resin dollar bill size chunks.
        >
        > I did not use glass! only resin. Should I clean up the wood, and glass
        > and resin again and make sure the top is water tight before I remount
        > the hulls.
        >
        > What type resin is best, epoxy, poly-u ? What weight glass, woven,
        > biderectional?
      • Kristine Bennett
        Just resin is not the answer you need to glass cloth to add bulk for the resin harden in also the cloth helps in adding to the over all strenth of the hulls as
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 24, 2007
          Just resin is not the answer you need to glass cloth
          to add bulk for the resin harden in also the cloth
          helps in adding to the over all strenth of the hulls
          as well.

          Epoxy is the best to use and as for your glass cloth
          look at your industral styles I like the 7781 for the
          simple reason it's a satin finsh to the cloth so you
          get a smoother finsh from the cloth then "boat cloth".
          You are going to spend a bit more for your cloth BUT
          it will save you hours in sanding time and epoxy to
          fill the boat cloth.

          I know they make a number of lighter weights of the
          same style cloth but I can't remember the numbers but
          if you look at www.fiberglasssupply.com I think is the
          site they will have it listed.

          Yep you will need to clean up the hulls to bright wood
          and start all over. I'm sure you didn't want to hear
          that.

          Also make sure your hulls are sealed so no water can
          get into them no matter where it comes from. That will
          give your hulls the best chance to see a long and
          usefull life.

          Blessings Krissie

          --- mark <planzman@...> wrote:

          > What do I do now?
          >
          > I built two wooden hulls for a pontoon boat (not
          > bolger) and moved the
          > completed boat out side and then we got some rain
          > which got into the
          > hulls and now the resin is coming off the ply wood.
          > I took the two
          > pontoons back off the deck and using a chisel I am
          > able to remove both
          > the paint and the resin dollar bill size chunks.
          >
          > I did not use glass! only resin. Should I clean up
          > the wood, and glass
          > and resin again and make sure the top is water tight
          > before I remount
          > the hulls.
          >
          > What type resin is best, epoxy, poly-u ? What
          > weight glass, woven,
          > biderectional?
          >
          >
          > thanks
          >
          >



          ____________________________________________________________________________________
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        • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
          Some great answers the only thing I would add is if you are going to cover a boat with a tarp buy a good one and create a way for air to circulate so it can
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 24, 2007
            Some great answers the only thing I would add is if you are going to
            cover a boat with a tarp buy a good one and create a way for air to
            circulate so it can dry out if it gets damp or wet.

            Jon

            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
            >
            > Just resin is not the answer you need to glass cloth
            > to add bulk for the resin harden in also the cloth
            > helps in adding to the over all strenth of the hulls
            > as well.
            >
            > Epoxy is the best to use and as for your glass cloth
            > look at your industral styles I like the 7781 for the
            > simple reason it's a satin finsh to the cloth so you
            > get a smoother finsh from the cloth then "boat cloth".
            > You are going to spend a bit more for your cloth BUT
            > it will save you hours in sanding time and epoxy to
            > fill the boat cloth.
            >
            > I know they make a number of lighter weights of the
            > same style cloth but I can't remember the numbers but
            > if you look at www.fiberglasssupply.com I think is the
            > site they will have it listed.
            >
            > Yep you will need to clean up the hulls to bright wood
            > and start all over. I'm sure you didn't want to hear
            > that.
            >
            > Also make sure your hulls are sealed so no water can
            > get into them no matter where it comes from. That will
            > give your hulls the best chance to see a long and
            > usefull life.
            >
            > Blessings Krissie
          • Dennis Mingear
            Hello, I m new to the group, just joined today. Go to this link http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cm/index.html They have a nice article on very lightweight
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 25, 2007
              Hello, I'm new to the group, just joined today.

              Go to this link http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cm/index.html

              They have a nice article on very lightweight fillers and some good info on various types of cloth. It's an homebuilt aircraft site, so saving weight and construction time are important to them.

              Micro balloons and epoxy can make a very nice light weight filler, but sanding it down to a mirror like finish will still be a challenge.

              Denny ...

              "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:
              Some great answers the only thing I would add is if you are going to
              cover a boat with a tarp buy a good one and create a way for air to
              circulate so it can dry out if it gets damp or wet.

              Jon

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
              >
              > Just resin is not the answer you need to glass cloth
              > to add bulk for the resin harden in also the cloth
              > helps in adding to the over all strenth of the hulls
              > as well.
              >
              > Epoxy is the best to use and as for your glass cloth
              > look at your industral styles I like the 7781 for the
              > simple reason it's a satin finsh to the cloth so you
              > get a smoother finsh from the cloth then "boat cloth".
              > You are going to spend a bit more for your cloth BUT
              > it will save you hours in sanding time and epoxy to
              > fill the boat cloth.
              >
              > I know they make a number of lighter weights of the
              > same style cloth but I can't remember the numbers but
              > if you look at www.fiberglasssupply.com I think is the
              > site they will have it listed.
              >
              > Yep you will need to clean up the hulls to bright wood
              > and start all over. I'm sure you didn't want to hear
              > that.
              >
              > Also make sure your hulls are sealed so no water can
              > get into them no matter where it comes from. That will
              > give your hulls the best chance to see a long and
              > usefull life.
              >
              > Blessings Krissie






              ---------------------------------
              Get your own web address.
              Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • derbyrm
              As I understand it, microballoons, whether phenolic or glass, are for fairing. Once the surface is the right shape, you still need a primer to fill those
              Message 6 of 23 , Jun 25, 2007
                As I understand it, microballoons, whether phenolic or glass, are for fairing. Once the surface is the right shape, you still need a primer to fill those broken baubles and get ready for your final coat of paint.

                Roger
                derbyrm@...
                http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Dennis Mingear
                To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:59 AM
                Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood


                Hello, I'm new to the group, just joined today.

                Go to this link http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cm/index.html

                They have a nice article on very lightweight fillers and some good info on various types of cloth. It's an homebuilt aircraft site, so saving weight and construction time are important to them.

                Micro balloons and epoxy can make a very nice light weight filler, but sanding it down to a mirror like finish will still be a challenge.

                Denny ...

                "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:
                Some great answers the only thing I would add is if you are going to
                cover a boat with a tarp buy a good one and create a way for air to
                circulate so it can dry out if it gets damp or wet.

                Jon

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
                >
                > Just resin is not the answer you need to glass cloth
                > to add bulk for the resin harden in also the cloth
                > helps in adding to the over all strenth of the hulls
                > as well.
                >
                > Epoxy is the best to use and as for your glass cloth
                > look at your industral styles I like the 7781 for the
                > simple reason it's a satin finsh to the cloth so you
                > get a smoother finsh from the cloth then "boat cloth".
                > You are going to spend a bit more for your cloth BUT
                > it will save you hours in sanding time and epoxy to
                > fill the boat cloth.
                >
                > I know they make a number of lighter weights of the
                > same style cloth but I can't remember the numbers but
                > if you look at www.fiberglasssupply.com I think is the
                > site they will have it listed.
                >
                > Yep you will need to clean up the hulls to bright wood
                > and start all over. I'm sure you didn't want to hear
                > that.
                >
                > Also make sure your hulls are sealed so no water can
                > get into them no matter where it comes from. That will
                > give your hulls the best chance to see a long and
                > usefull life.
                >
                > Blessings Krissie

                ---------------------------------
                Get your own web address.
                Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dennis Mingear
                Yes, but, depending on the ratio of resin to filler you can also use it as a filler for the weave of the cloth that you used on the plywood. You can also
                Message 7 of 23 , Jun 25, 2007
                  Yes, but, depending on the ratio of resin to filler you can also use it as a filler for the weave of the cloth that you used on the plywood. You can also include some alcohol in the filler mix and make a very dry micro-mix that is very much easier to sand than just resin and micro balloons alone.

                  The aircraft people first fill the weave with a micro slurry and then after sanding, fill the remaining or resulting pin holes with various spray-on fillers with UV inhibitors.

                  Lots of info on these procedures in the homebuilt aircraft world and websites.

                  So depending on the mix, it can be used for fairing and filling.

                  Denny ...

                  derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
                  As I understand it, microballoons, whether phenolic or glass, are for fairing. Once the surface is the right shape, you still need a primer to fill those broken baubles and get ready for your final coat of paint.

                  Roger
                  derbyrm@...
                  http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Dennis Mingear
                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:59 AM
                  Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood

                  Hello, I'm new to the group, just joined today.

                  Go to this link http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cm/index.html

                  They have a nice article on very lightweight fillers and some good info on various types of cloth. It's an homebuilt aircraft site, so saving weight and construction time are important to them.

                  Micro balloons and epoxy can make a very nice light weight filler, but sanding it down to a mirror like finish will still be a challenge.

                  Denny ...

                  "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:
                  Some great answers the only thing I would add is if you are going to
                  cover a boat with a tarp buy a good one and create a way for air to
                  circulate so it can dry out if it gets damp or wet.

                  Jon

                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Just resin is not the answer you need to glass cloth
                  > to add bulk for the resin harden in also the cloth
                  > helps in adding to the over all strenth of the hulls
                  > as well.
                  >
                  > Epoxy is the best to use and as for your glass cloth
                  > look at your industral styles I like the 7781 for the
                  > simple reason it's a satin finsh to the cloth so you
                  > get a smoother finsh from the cloth then "boat cloth".
                  > You are going to spend a bit more for your cloth BUT
                  > it will save you hours in sanding time and epoxy to
                  > fill the boat cloth.
                  >
                  > I know they make a number of lighter weights of the
                  > same style cloth but I can't remember the numbers but
                  > if you look at www.fiberglasssupply.com I think is the
                  > site they will have it listed.
                  >
                  > Yep you will need to clean up the hulls to bright wood
                  > and start all over. I'm sure you didn't want to hear
                  > that.
                  >
                  > Also make sure your hulls are sealed so no water can
                  > get into them no matter where it comes from. That will
                  > give your hulls the best chance to see a long and
                  > usefull life.
                  >
                  > Blessings Krissie

                  ---------------------------------
                  Get your own web address.
                  Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                  ---------------------------------
                  Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • derbyrm
                  Thank you Dennis. I prefer undiluted epoxy for filling since its strength is important to the fiberglass/epoxy composite. Microballoons have the lowest
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 25, 2007
                    Thank you Dennis. I prefer undiluted epoxy for filling since its strength is important to the fiberglass/epoxy composite. Microballoons have the lowest rating for strength of the many fillers.

                    You'll see phenolic microballons used on my centerboard at http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm/CBdetail.html I'll be coating it with graphite filled epoxy soon to make it more slippery and less likely to jam in the case.

                    I've been a happy customer of Aircraft Spruce for several decades. Good stuff, good service, VERY high prices.

                    Roger
                    derbyrm@...
                    http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Dennis Mingear
                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 10:04 AM
                    Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood


                    Yes, but, depending on the ratio of resin to filler you can also use it as a filler for the weave of the cloth that you used on the plywood. You can also include some alcohol in the filler mix and make a very dry micro-mix that is very much easier to sand than just resin and micro balloons alone.

                    The aircraft people first fill the weave with a micro slurry and then after sanding, fill the remaining or resulting pin holes with various spray-on fillers with UV inhibitors.

                    Lots of info on these procedures in the homebuilt aircraft world and websites.

                    So depending on the mix, it can be used for fairing and filling.

                    Denny ...

                    derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
                    As I understand it, microballoons, whether phenolic or glass, are for fairing. Once the surface is the right shape, you still need a primer to fill those broken baubles and get ready for your final coat of paint.

                    Roger
                    derbyrm@...
                    http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Dennis Mingear
                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:59 AM
                    Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood

                    Hello, I'm new to the group, just joined today.

                    Go to this link http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cm/index.html

                    They have a nice article on very lightweight fillers and some good info on various types of cloth. It's an homebuilt aircraft site, so saving weight and construction time are important to them.

                    Micro balloons and epoxy can make a very nice light weight filler, but sanding it down to a mirror like finish will still be a challenge.

                    Denny ...

                    "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:
                    Some great answers the only thing I would add is if you are going to
                    cover a boat with a tarp buy a good one and create a way for air to
                    circulate so it can dry out if it gets damp or wet.

                    Jon

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Just resin is not the answer you need to glass cloth
                    > to add bulk for the resin harden in also the cloth
                    > helps in adding to the over all strenth of the hulls
                    > as well.
                    >
                    > Epoxy is the best to use and as for your glass cloth
                    > look at your industral styles I like the 7781 for the
                    > simple reason it's a satin finsh to the cloth so you
                    > get a smoother finsh from the cloth then "boat cloth".
                    > You are going to spend a bit more for your cloth BUT
                    > it will save you hours in sanding time and epoxy to
                    > fill the boat cloth.
                    >
                    > I know they make a number of lighter weights of the
                    > same style cloth but I can't remember the numbers but
                    > if you look at www.fiberglasssupply.com I think is the
                    > site they will have it listed.
                    >
                    > Yep you will need to clean up the hulls to bright wood
                    > and start all over. I'm sure you didn't want to hear
                    > that.
                    >
                    > Also make sure your hulls are sealed so no water can
                    > get into them no matter where it comes from. That will
                    > give your hulls the best chance to see a long and
                    > usefull life.
                    >
                    > Blessings Krissie

                    ---------------------------------
                    Get your own web address.
                    Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    ---------------------------------
                    Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Dennis Mingear
                    It is a great place, the aviation bent makes for higher prices I m sure. I only mentioned it because they have some limited but concise information on fillers
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 25, 2007
                      It is a great place, the aviation bent makes for higher prices I'm sure. I only mentioned it because they have some limited but concise information on fillers and so on.

                      The alcohol dilution would only be used to fill the fiberglass cloth weave. I agree with you in that it would not be appropriate for anything else.

                      I've spent a lot of time looking at pocket cruiser plans. I live in the San Franisco Bay Area and I'm looking for a small plans built sailboat that I could use to sail the Bay and cruise the coastal waters of California including the Farallons.

                      I know that boats like this are very personal but I'll venture a question anyway.

                      Do you have any comments for a small sailboat suitable for this kind of work - uh ... fun?

                      I've looked at several but I don't know enough about any of them to make an informed descision.

                      Thanks for any comments you may provide.

                      Denny ...

                      derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
                      Thank you Dennis. I prefer undiluted epoxy for filling since its strength is important to the fiberglass/epoxy composite. Microballoons have the lowest rating for strength of the many fillers.

                      You'll see phenolic microballons used on my centerboard at http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm/CBdetail.html I'll be coating it with graphite filled epoxy soon to make it more slippery and less likely to jam in the case.

                      I've been a happy customer of Aircraft Spruce for several decades. Good stuff, good service, VERY high prices.

                      Roger
                      derbyrm@...
                      http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Dennis Mingear
                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 10:04 AM
                      Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood

                      Yes, but, depending on the ratio of resin to filler you can also use it as a filler for the weave of the cloth that you used on the plywood. You can also include some alcohol in the filler mix and make a very dry micro-mix that is very much easier to sand than just resin and micro balloons alone.

                      The aircraft people first fill the weave with a micro slurry and then after sanding, fill the remaining or resulting pin holes with various spray-on fillers with UV inhibitors.

                      Lots of info on these procedures in the homebuilt aircraft world and websites.

                      So depending on the mix, it can be used for fairing and filling.

                      Denny ...

                      derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
                      As I understand it, microballoons, whether phenolic or glass, are for fairing. Once the surface is the right shape, you still need a primer to fill those broken baubles and get ready for your final coat of paint.

                      Roger
                      derbyrm@...
                      http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Dennis Mingear
                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:59 AM
                      Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood

                      Hello, I'm new to the group, just joined today.

                      Go to this link http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cm/index.html

                      They have a nice article on very lightweight fillers and some good info on various types of cloth. It's an homebuilt aircraft site, so saving weight and construction time are important to them.

                      Micro balloons and epoxy can make a very nice light weight filler, but sanding it down to a mirror like finish will still be a challenge.

                      Denny ...

                      "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:
                      Some great answers the only thing I would add is if you are going to
                      cover a boat with a tarp buy a good one and create a way for air to
                      circulate so it can dry out if it gets damp or wet.

                      Jon

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Just resin is not the answer you need to glass cloth
                      > to add bulk for the resin harden in also the cloth
                      > helps in adding to the over all strenth of the hulls
                      > as well.
                      >
                      > Epoxy is the best to use and as for your glass cloth
                      > look at your industral styles I like the 7781 for the
                      > simple reason it's a satin finsh to the cloth so you
                      > get a smoother finsh from the cloth then "boat cloth".
                      > You are going to spend a bit more for your cloth BUT
                      > it will save you hours in sanding time and epoxy to
                      > fill the boat cloth.
                      >
                      > I know they make a number of lighter weights of the
                      > same style cloth but I can't remember the numbers but
                      > if you look at www.fiberglasssupply.com I think is the
                      > site they will have it listed.
                      >
                      > Yep you will need to clean up the hulls to bright wood
                      > and start all over. I'm sure you didn't want to hear
                      > that.
                      >
                      > Also make sure your hulls are sealed so no water can
                      > get into them no matter where it comes from. That will
                      > give your hulls the best chance to see a long and
                      > usefull life.
                      >
                      > Blessings Krissie

                      ---------------------------------
                      Get your own web address.
                      Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      ---------------------------------
                      Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                      ---------------------------------
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                      in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • derbyrm
                      I m sure several others on the list will chime in. There is a Motor Sailer variation of the Chebacco that was built for SF Bay and the Cruising Conversion
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jun 25, 2007
                        I'm sure several others on the list will chime in. There is a "Motor Sailer" variation of the Chebacco that was built for SF Bay and the Cruising Conversion would help keep the cold breezes away. http://www.chebacco.com/

                        The classic boat for that bay is the Pelican, but it's not a Bolger design, and the 12' version is not what one would call a pocket cruiser. That said, until you have some sailing experience, there is nothing more valuable than getting in with a fleet of similar boats. http://community-2.webtv.net/PelicanSailboat/SFPELICANSAILBOATS/index.html

                        Roger
                        derbyrm@...
                        http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Dennis Mingear
                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 1:42 PM
                        Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood


                        It is a great place, the aviation bent makes for higher prices I'm sure. I only mentioned it because they have some limited but concise information on fillers and so on.

                        The alcohol dilution would only be used to fill the fiberglass cloth weave. I agree with you in that it would not be appropriate for anything else.

                        I've spent a lot of time looking at pocket cruiser plans. I live in the San Franisco Bay Area and I'm looking for a small plans built sailboat that I could use to sail the Bay and cruise the coastal waters of California including the Farallons.

                        I know that boats like this are very personal but I'll venture a question anyway.

                        Do you have any comments for a small sailboat suitable for this kind of work - uh ... fun?

                        I've looked at several but I don't know enough about any of them to make an informed descision.

                        Thanks for any comments you may provide.

                        Denny ...

                        derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
                        Thank you Dennis. I prefer undiluted epoxy for filling since its strength is important to the fiberglass/epoxy composite. Microballoons have the lowest rating for strength of the many fillers.

                        You'll see phenolic microballons used on my centerboard at http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm/CBdetail.html I'll be coating it with graphite filled epoxy soon to make it more slippery and less likely to jam in the case.

                        I've been a happy customer of Aircraft Spruce for several decades. Good stuff, good service, VERY high prices.

                        Roger
                        derbyrm@...
                        http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Dennis Mingear
                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 10:04 AM
                        Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood

                        Yes, but, depending on the ratio of resin to filler you can also use it as a filler for the weave of the cloth that you used on the plywood. You can also include some alcohol in the filler mix and make a very dry micro-mix that is very much easier to sand than just resin and micro balloons alone.

                        The aircraft people first fill the weave with a micro slurry and then after sanding, fill the remaining or resulting pin holes with various spray-on fillers with UV inhibitors.

                        Lots of info on these procedures in the homebuilt aircraft world and websites.

                        So depending on the mix, it can be used for fairing and filling.

                        Denny ...

                        derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
                        As I understand it, microballoons, whether phenolic or glass, are for fairing. Once the surface is the right shape, you still need a primer to fill those broken baubles and get ready for your final coat of paint.

                        Roger
                        derbyrm@...
                        http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Dennis Mingear
                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:59 AM
                        Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood

                        Hello, I'm new to the group, just joined today.

                        Go to this link http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cm/index.html

                        They have a nice article on very lightweight fillers and some good info on various types of cloth. It's an homebuilt aircraft site, so saving weight and construction time are important to them.

                        Micro balloons and epoxy can make a very nice light weight filler, but sanding it down to a mirror like finish will still be a challenge.

                        Denny ...

                        "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:
                        Some great answers the only thing I would add is if you are going to
                        cover a boat with a tarp buy a good one and create a way for air to
                        circulate so it can dry out if it gets damp or wet.

                        Jon

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Just resin is not the answer you need to glass cloth
                        > to add bulk for the resin harden in also the cloth
                        > helps in adding to the over all strenth of the hulls
                        > as well.
                        >
                        > Epoxy is the best to use and as for your glass cloth
                        > look at your industral styles I like the 7781 for the
                        > simple reason it's a satin finsh to the cloth so you
                        > get a smoother finsh from the cloth then "boat cloth".
                        > You are going to spend a bit more for your cloth BUT
                        > it will save you hours in sanding time and epoxy to
                        > fill the boat cloth.
                        >
                        > I know they make a number of lighter weights of the
                        > same style cloth but I can't remember the numbers but
                        > if you look at www.fiberglasssupply.com I think is the
                        > site they will have it listed.
                        >
                        > Yep you will need to clean up the hulls to bright wood
                        > and start all over. I'm sure you didn't want to hear
                        > that.
                        >
                        > Also make sure your hulls are sealed so no water can
                        > get into them no matter where it comes from. That will
                        > give your hulls the best chance to see a long and
                        > usefull life.
                        >
                        > Blessings Krissie

                        ---------------------------------
                        Get your own web address.
                        Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

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                      • lancasterdennis
                        - Lets not forget the Micro. However, I would not consider the Micro to be a bluewater boat and if you are talking about making the Farallons... Dennis
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jun 25, 2007
                          -
                          Lets not forget the Micro. However, I would not consider the Micro
                          to be a bluewater boat and if you are talking about making the
                          Farallons...

                          Dennis
                          Bellingham, WA



                          -- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I'm sure several others on the list will chime in. There is
                          a "Motor Sailer" variation of the Chebacco that was built for SF Bay
                          and the Cruising Conversion would help keep the cold breezes away.
                          http://www.chebacco.com/
                          >
                          > The classic boat for that bay is the Pelican, but it's not a Bolger
                          design, and the 12' version is not what one would call a pocket
                          cruiser. That said, until you have some sailing experience, there is
                          nothing more valuable than getting in with a fleet of similar boats.
                          http://community-
                          2.webtv.net/PelicanSailboat/SFPELICANSAILBOATS/index.html
                          >
                          > Roger
                          > derbyrm@...
                          > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Dennis Mingear
                          > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 1:42 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood
                          >
                          >
                          > It is a great place, the aviation bent makes for higher prices
                          I'm sure. I only mentioned it because they have some limited but
                          concise information on fillers and so on.
                          >
                          > The alcohol dilution would only be used to fill the fiberglass
                          cloth weave. I agree with you in that it would not be appropriate for
                          anything else.
                          >
                          > I've spent a lot of time looking at pocket cruiser plans. I live
                          in the San Franisco Bay Area and I'm looking for a small plans built
                          sailboat that I could use to sail the Bay and cruise the coastal
                          waters of California including the Farallons.
                          >
                          > I know that boats like this are very personal but I'll venture a
                          question anyway.
                          >
                          > Do you have any comments for a small sailboat suitable for this
                          kind of work - uh ... fun?
                          >
                          > I've looked at several but I don't know enough about any of them
                          to make an informed descision.
                          >
                          > Thanks for any comments you may provide.
                          >
                          > Denny ...
                          >
                          > derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
                          > Thank you Dennis. I prefer undiluted epoxy for filling since its
                          strength is important to the fiberglass/epoxy composite.
                          Microballoons have the lowest rating for strength of the many fillers.
                          >
                          > You'll see phenolic microballons used on my centerboard at
                          http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm/CBdetail.html I'll be coating it
                          with graphite filled epoxy soon to make it more slippery and less
                          likely to jam in the case.
                          >
                          > I've been a happy customer of Aircraft Spruce for several
                          decades. Good stuff, good service, VERY high prices.
                          >
                          > Roger
                          > derbyrm@...
                          > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Dennis Mingear
                          > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 10:04 AM
                          > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood
                          >
                          > Yes, but, depending on the ratio of resin to filler you can also
                          use it as a filler for the weave of the cloth that you used on the
                          plywood. You can also include some alcohol in the filler mix and make
                          a very dry micro-mix that is very much easier to sand than just resin
                          and micro balloons alone.
                          >
                          > The aircraft people first fill the weave with a micro slurry and
                          then after sanding, fill the remaining or resulting pin holes with
                          various spray-on fillers with UV inhibitors.
                          >
                          > Lots of info on these procedures in the homebuilt aircraft world
                          and websites.
                          >
                          > So depending on the mix, it can be used for fairing and filling.
                          >
                          > Denny ...
                          >
                          > derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
                          > As I understand it, microballoons, whether phenolic or glass, are
                          for fairing. Once the surface is the right shape, you still need a
                          primer to fill those broken baubles and get ready for your final coat
                          of paint.
                          >
                          > Roger
                          > derbyrm@...
                          > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Dennis Mingear
                          > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:59 AM
                          > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood
                          >
                          > Hello, I'm new to the group, just joined today.
                          >
                          > Go to this link http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cm/index.html
                          >
                          > They have a nice article on very lightweight fillers and some
                          good info on various types of cloth. It's an homebuilt aircraft site,
                          so saving weight and construction time are important to them.
                          >
                          > Micro balloons and epoxy can make a very nice light weight
                          filler, but sanding it down to a mirror like finish will still be a
                          challenge.
                          >
                          > Denny ...
                          >
                          > "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:
                          > Some great answers the only thing I would add is if you are going
                          to
                          > cover a boat with a tarp buy a good one and create a way for air
                          to
                          > circulate so it can dry out if it gets damp or wet.
                          >
                          > Jon
                          >
                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Just resin is not the answer you need to glass cloth
                          > > to add bulk for the resin harden in also the cloth
                          > > helps in adding to the over all strenth of the hulls
                          > > as well.
                          > >
                          > > Epoxy is the best to use and as for your glass cloth
                          > > look at your industral styles I like the 7781 for the
                          > > simple reason it's a satin finsh to the cloth so you
                          > > get a smoother finsh from the cloth then "boat cloth".
                          > > You are going to spend a bit more for your cloth BUT
                          > > it will save you hours in sanding time and epoxy to
                          > > fill the boat cloth.
                          > >
                          > > I know they make a number of lighter weights of the
                          > > same style cloth but I can't remember the numbers but
                          > > if you look at www.fiberglasssupply.com I think is the
                          > > site they will have it listed.
                          > >
                          > > Yep you will need to clean up the hulls to bright wood
                          > > and start all over. I'm sure you didn't want to hear
                          > > that.
                          > >
                          > > Also make sure your hulls are sealed so no water can
                          > > get into them no matter where it comes from. That will
                          > > give your hulls the best chance to see a long and
                          > > usefull life.
                          > >
                          > > Blessings Krissie
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Get your own web address.
                          > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s
                          user panel and lay it on us.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
                          > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Dennis Mingear
                          Thanks Dennis, the Micro is cool, no doubt. Is there anything in the 14 to 18 foot range that uses plywood construction that could be used for that kind of
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jun 25, 2007
                            Thanks Dennis, the Micro is cool, no doubt.

                            Is there anything in the 14 to 18 foot range that uses plywood construction that could be used for that kind of sailing?

                            A 16 foot sailboat would be about perfect, anything that you might recomend, that size, that would work in that kind of water?

                            Denny ...

                            lancasterdennis <dlancast@...> wrote:
                            -
                            Lets not forget the Micro. However, I would not consider the Micro
                            to be a bluewater boat and if you are talking about making the
                            Farallons...

                            Dennis
                            Bellingham, WA

                            -- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I'm sure several others on the list will chime in. There is
                            a "Motor Sailer" variation of the Chebacco that was built for SF Bay
                            and the Cruising Conversion would help keep the cold breezes away.
                            http://www.chebacco.com/
                            >
                            > The classic boat for that bay is the Pelican, but it's not a Bolger
                            design, and the 12' version is not what one would call a pocket
                            cruiser. That said, until you have some sailing experience, there is
                            nothing more valuable than getting in with a fleet of similar boats.
                            http://community-
                            2.webtv.net/PelicanSailboat/SFPELICANSAILBOATS/index.html
                            >
                            > Roger
                            > derbyrm@...
                            > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Dennis Mingear
                            > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 1:42 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood
                            >
                            >
                            > It is a great place, the aviation bent makes for higher prices
                            I'm sure. I only mentioned it because they have some limited but
                            concise information on fillers and so on.
                            >
                            > The alcohol dilution would only be used to fill the fiberglass
                            cloth weave. I agree with you in that it would not be appropriate for
                            anything else.
                            >
                            > I've spent a lot of time looking at pocket cruiser plans. I live
                            in the San Franisco Bay Area and I'm looking for a small plans built
                            sailboat that I could use to sail the Bay and cruise the coastal
                            waters of California including the Farallons.
                            >
                            > I know that boats like this are very personal but I'll venture a
                            question anyway.
                            >
                            > Do you have any comments for a small sailboat suitable for this
                            kind of work - uh ... fun?
                            >
                            > I've looked at several but I don't know enough about any of them
                            to make an informed descision.
                            >
                            > Thanks for any comments you may provide.
                            >
                            > Denny ...
                            >
                            > derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
                            > Thank you Dennis. I prefer undiluted epoxy for filling since its
                            strength is important to the fiberglass/epoxy composite.
                            Microballoons have the lowest rating for strength of the many fillers.
                            >
                            > You'll see phenolic microballons used on my centerboard at
                            http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm/CBdetail.html I'll be coating it
                            with graphite filled epoxy soon to make it more slippery and less
                            likely to jam in the case.
                            >
                            > I've been a happy customer of Aircraft Spruce for several
                            decades. Good stuff, good service, VERY high prices.
                            >
                            > Roger
                            > derbyrm@...
                            > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Dennis Mingear
                            > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 10:04 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood
                            >
                            > Yes, but, depending on the ratio of resin to filler you can also
                            use it as a filler for the weave of the cloth that you used on the
                            plywood. You can also include some alcohol in the filler mix and make
                            a very dry micro-mix that is very much easier to sand than just resin
                            and micro balloons alone.
                            >
                            > The aircraft people first fill the weave with a micro slurry and
                            then after sanding, fill the remaining or resulting pin holes with
                            various spray-on fillers with UV inhibitors.
                            >
                            > Lots of info on these procedures in the homebuilt aircraft world
                            and websites.
                            >
                            > So depending on the mix, it can be used for fairing and filling.
                            >
                            > Denny ...
                            >
                            > derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
                            > As I understand it, microballoons, whether phenolic or glass, are
                            for fairing. Once the surface is the right shape, you still need a
                            primer to fill those broken baubles and get ready for your final coat
                            of paint.
                            >
                            > Roger
                            > derbyrm@...
                            > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Dennis Mingear
                            > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:59 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood
                            >
                            > Hello, I'm new to the group, just joined today.
                            >
                            > Go to this link http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cm/index.html
                            >
                            > They have a nice article on very lightweight fillers and some
                            good info on various types of cloth. It's an homebuilt aircraft site,
                            so saving weight and construction time are important to them.
                            >
                            > Micro balloons and epoxy can make a very nice light weight
                            filler, but sanding it down to a mirror like finish will still be a
                            challenge.
                            >
                            > Denny ...
                            >
                            > "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:
                            > Some great answers the only thing I would add is if you are going
                            to
                            > cover a boat with a tarp buy a good one and create a way for air
                            to
                            > circulate so it can dry out if it gets damp or wet.
                            >
                            > Jon
                            >
                            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Just resin is not the answer you need to glass cloth
                            > > to add bulk for the resin harden in also the cloth
                            > > helps in adding to the over all strenth of the hulls
                            > > as well.
                            > >
                            > > Epoxy is the best to use and as for your glass cloth
                            > > look at your industral styles I like the 7781 for the
                            > > simple reason it's a satin finsh to the cloth so you
                            > > get a smoother finsh from the cloth then "boat cloth".
                            > > You are going to spend a bit more for your cloth BUT
                            > > it will save you hours in sanding time and epoxy to
                            > > fill the boat cloth.
                            > >
                            > > I know they make a number of lighter weights of the
                            > > same style cloth but I can't remember the numbers but
                            > > if you look at www.fiberglasssupply.com I think is the
                            > > site they will have it listed.
                            > >
                            > > Yep you will need to clean up the hulls to bright wood
                            > > and start all over. I'm sure you didn't want to hear
                            > > that.
                            > >
                            > > Also make sure your hulls are sealed so no water can
                            > > get into them no matter where it comes from. That will
                            > > give your hulls the best chance to see a long and
                            > > usefull life.
                            > >
                            > > Blessings Krissie
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Get your own web address.
                            > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s
                            user panel and lay it on us.
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
                            > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >






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                          • Bruce Hallman
                            ... As you probably know, the biggest issue around S.F. is storage. With marina berths very difficult, and even trailer storage around SF being tough or
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jun 25, 2007
                              On 6/25/07, Dennis Mingear <dennismingear@...> wrote:

                              > I've spent a lot of time looking at pocket cruiser plans. I live in the San Franisco Bay Area and I'm looking for a small plans built sailboat that I could use to sail the Bay and cruise the coastal waters of California including the Farallons.


                              As you probably know, the biggest issue around S.F. is storage. With
                              marina berths very difficult, and even trailer storage around SF being
                              tough or expensive. How will you store and launch? Your answer has
                              bearing on which boat to choose.

                              I am a personal fan of the Bolger Micro Navigator, as the bright warm
                              cabin is nice in the cold wind.

                              For a trip to the Faralons (which I have not yet done) I understand
                              the key thing is timing the current, as iit can get very rough
                              entering and exiting the Golden Gate.
                            • Dennis Mingear
                              Yeah! It would take a pretty special little sailboat and good timing to get out of the Bay and into the Pacific wouldn t it. If you didn t plan properly, the
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jun 25, 2007
                                Yeah! It would take a pretty special little sailboat and good timing to get out of the Bay and into the Pacific wouldn't it. If you didn't plan properly, the current could be moving faster and in the wrong direction, than the boat, that wouldn't be fun!

                                The size of the boat, in my case, is determined by my available building and storage space and inexpensive trailering. It will have to stay at home when not being used. Same with planes, if you can't keep it on a trailer you are probably outta luck, because it can take 10 years or more, to get a hangar or tiedown near my house.

                                Denny ...

                                Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
                                On 6/25/07, Dennis Mingear <dennismingear@...> wrote:

                                > I've spent a lot of time looking at pocket cruiser plans. I live in the San Franisco Bay Area and I'm looking for a small plans built sailboat that I could use to sail the Bay and cruise the coastal waters of California including the Farallons.

                                As you probably know, the biggest issue around S.F. is storage. With
                                marina berths very difficult, and even trailer storage around SF being
                                tough or expensive. How will you store and launch? Your answer has
                                bearing on which boat to choose.

                                I am a personal fan of the Bolger Micro Navigator, as the bright warm
                                cabin is nice in the cold wind.

                                For a trip to the Faralons (which I have not yet done) I understand
                                the key thing is timing the current, as iit can get very rough
                                entering and exiting the Golden Gate.





                                ---------------------------------
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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Kristine Bennett
                                I m one of those homebuilt aircraft nuts as well. It looks like the plans for our aircraft will be ready in the next few weeks so any boat building is on hold.
                                Message 15 of 23 , Jun 25, 2007
                                  I'm one of those homebuilt aircraft nuts as well. It
                                  looks like the plans for our aircraft will be ready in
                                  the next few weeks so any boat building is on hold.
                                  But it doesn't stop me from looking. You know kind of
                                  like looking at a good looking woman walking by... You
                                  just can't touch!

                                  Well some times you can when she happens to be your
                                  Sweetie as well!

                                  A lot of the things you do on an aircraft to keep
                                  things as light as you can but still be strong works
                                  with boats as well.

                                  I have also seen the aftermath of boats being tightly
                                  tarpped for 6 month or longer and you can have a big
                                  mess with mold and funny stuff growing out of the
                                  ropes that were laying in the deck.

                                  On one boat I saw the latex paint growing mold!

                                  Blessings Krissie

                                  --- Dennis Mingear <dennismingear@...> wrote:

                                  > Yes, but, depending on the ratio of resin to filler
                                  > you can also use it as a filler for the weave of the
                                  > cloth that you used on the plywood. You can also
                                  > include some alcohol in the filler mix and make a
                                  > very dry micro-mix that is very much easier to sand
                                  > than just resin and micro balloons alone.
                                  >
                                  > The aircraft people first fill the weave with a
                                  > micro slurry and then after sanding, fill the
                                  > remaining or resulting pin holes with various
                                  > spray-on fillers with UV inhibitors.
                                  >
                                  > Lots of info on these procedures in the homebuilt
                                  > aircraft world and websites.
                                  >
                                  > So depending on the mix, it can be used for
                                  > fairing and filling.
                                  >
                                  > Denny ...
                                  >
                                  > derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
                                  > As I understand it, microballoons, whether
                                  > phenolic or glass, are for fairing. Once the surface
                                  > is the right shape, you still need a primer to fill
                                  > those broken baubles and get ready for your final
                                  > coat of paint.
                                  >
                                  > Roger
                                  > derbyrm@...
                                  > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Dennis Mingear
                                  > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:59 AM
                                  > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and
                                  > plywood
                                  >
                                  > Hello, I'm new to the group, just joined today.
                                  >
                                  > Go to this link
                                  > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cm/index.html
                                  >
                                  > They have a nice article on very lightweight fillers
                                  > and some good info on various types of cloth. It's
                                  > an homebuilt aircraft site, so saving weight and
                                  > construction time are important to them.
                                  >
                                  > Micro balloons and epoxy can make a very nice light
                                  > weight filler, but sanding it down to a mirror like
                                  > finish will still be a challenge.
                                  >
                                  > Denny ...
                                  >
                                  > "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:
                                  > Some great answers the only thing I would add is if
                                  > you are going to
                                  > cover a boat with a tarp buy a good one and create a
                                  > way for air to
                                  > circulate so it can dry out if it gets damp or wet.
                                  >
                                  > Jon
                                  >



                                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                                • Kristine Bennett
                                  Yes their prices are high but their service is great. I have also used www.fiberglasssupply.com and they seem to have better prices on their stuff. Also when
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Jun 25, 2007
                                    Yes their prices are high but their service is great.

                                    I have also used www.fiberglasssupply.com and they
                                    seem to have better prices on their stuff. Also when
                                    you are buying over 10 yards (I think it is) of cloth
                                    you get a brake on the price.

                                    I ordered stuff on monday and had it thursday the same
                                    week. Their website also has a lot of good info in it
                                    as well.

                                    Blessings Krissie

                                    --- derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:

                                    > Thank you Dennis. I prefer undiluted epoxy for
                                    > filling since its strength is important to the
                                    > fiberglass/epoxy composite. Microballoons have the
                                    > lowest rating for strength of the many fillers.
                                    >
                                    > You'll see phenolic microballons used on my
                                    > centerboard at
                                    > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm/CBdetail.html
                                    > I'll be coating it with graphite filled epoxy soon
                                    > to make it more slippery and less likely to jam in
                                    > the case.
                                    >
                                    > I've been a happy customer of Aircraft Spruce for
                                    > several decades. Good stuff, good service, VERY
                                    > high prices.
                                    >




                                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                                    to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
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                                  • lancasterdennis
                                    - Well Denny, That s a tall order in my books. I have never been under the gate in a small sailboat, but I know it can get really rough and dangerous due to
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Jun 25, 2007
                                      -
                                      Well Denny,

                                      That's a tall order in my books. I have never been under the gate in
                                      a small sailboat, but I know it can get really rough and dangerous
                                      due to currents as mentioned. When I think bluewater and rough
                                      conditions, I think, full keel, powerful hull design. Many a small
                                      boat has circumnavigated as we all know. Much of it has to do with
                                      the skill of the skipper and the soundness and sea keeping abilities
                                      of the boat. You will have to hear from more experienced Bolger boat
                                      owners as to the bluewater capabilites of these square boats. My Old
                                      Shoe will only sail on lakes... I'm done cruising and crashing around
                                      on the high seas.. even on my 11,000lb full keel 30 ft sailboat, I
                                      was still biting my nails a number of times. I recall speaking with
                                      the Pardey's at Port Townsend Wooden Boat show one year and what they
                                      said about going bluewater was to be sure your hull is sound... what
                                      can I say.

                                      Best of luck to you.

                                      Regards,

                                      Dennis
                                      Bellingham, Wa


                                      -- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Mingear <dennismingear@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Thanks Dennis, the Micro is cool, no doubt.
                                      >
                                      > Is there anything in the 14 to 18 foot range that uses plywood
                                      construction that could be used for that kind of sailing?
                                      >
                                      > A 16 foot sailboat would be about perfect, anything that you
                                      might recomend, that size, that would work in that kind of water?
                                      >
                                      > Denny ...
                                      >
                                      > lancasterdennis <dlancast@...> wrote:
                                      > -
                                      > Lets not forget the Micro. However, I would not consider the Micro
                                      > to be a bluewater boat and if you are talking about making the
                                      > Farallons...
                                      >
                                      > Dennis
                                      > Bellingham, WA
                                      >
                                      > -- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I'm sure several others on the list will chime in. There is
                                      > a "Motor Sailer" variation of the Chebacco that was built for SF
                                      Bay
                                      > and the Cruising Conversion would help keep the cold breezes away.
                                      > http://www.chebacco.com/
                                      > >
                                      > > The classic boat for that bay is the Pelican, but it's not a
                                      Bolger
                                      > design, and the 12' version is not what one would call a pocket
                                      > cruiser. That said, until you have some sailing experience, there
                                      is
                                      > nothing more valuable than getting in with a fleet of similar
                                      boats.
                                      > http://community-
                                      > 2.webtv.net/PelicanSailboat/SFPELICANSAILBOATS/index.html
                                      > >
                                      > > Roger
                                      > > derbyrm@
                                      > > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: Dennis Mingear
                                      > > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 1:42 PM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > It is a great place, the aviation bent makes for higher prices
                                      > I'm sure. I only mentioned it because they have some limited but
                                      > concise information on fillers and so on.
                                      > >
                                      > > The alcohol dilution would only be used to fill the fiberglass
                                      > cloth weave. I agree with you in that it would not be appropriate
                                      for
                                      > anything else.
                                      > >
                                      > > I've spent a lot of time looking at pocket cruiser plans. I live
                                      > in the San Franisco Bay Area and I'm looking for a small plans
                                      built
                                      > sailboat that I could use to sail the Bay and cruise the coastal
                                      > waters of California including the Farallons.
                                      > >
                                      > > I know that boats like this are very personal but I'll venture a
                                      > question anyway.
                                      > >
                                      > > Do you have any comments for a small sailboat suitable for this
                                      > kind of work - uh ... fun?
                                      > >
                                      > > I've looked at several but I don't know enough about any of them
                                      > to make an informed descision.
                                      > >
                                      > > Thanks for any comments you may provide.
                                      > >
                                      > > Denny ...
                                      > >
                                      > > derbyrm <derbyrm@> wrote:
                                      > > Thank you Dennis. I prefer undiluted epoxy for filling since its
                                      > strength is important to the fiberglass/epoxy composite.
                                      > Microballoons have the lowest rating for strength of the many
                                      fillers.
                                      > >
                                      > > You'll see phenolic microballons used on my centerboard at
                                      > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm/CBdetail.html I'll be coating it
                                      > with graphite filled epoxy soon to make it more slippery and less
                                      > likely to jam in the case.
                                      > >
                                      > > I've been a happy customer of Aircraft Spruce for several
                                      > decades. Good stuff, good service, VERY high prices.
                                      > >
                                      > > Roger
                                      > > derbyrm@
                                      > > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: Dennis Mingear
                                      > > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 10:04 AM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood
                                      > >
                                      > > Yes, but, depending on the ratio of resin to filler you can also
                                      > use it as a filler for the weave of the cloth that you used on the
                                      > plywood. You can also include some alcohol in the filler mix and
                                      make
                                      > a very dry micro-mix that is very much easier to sand than just
                                      resin
                                      > and micro balloons alone.
                                      > >
                                      > > The aircraft people first fill the weave with a micro slurry and
                                      > then after sanding, fill the remaining or resulting pin holes with
                                      > various spray-on fillers with UV inhibitors.
                                      > >
                                      > > Lots of info on these procedures in the homebuilt aircraft world
                                      > and websites.
                                      > >
                                      > > So depending on the mix, it can be used for fairing and filling.
                                      > >
                                      > > Denny ...
                                      > >
                                      > > derbyrm <derbyrm@> wrote:
                                      > > As I understand it, microballoons, whether phenolic or glass, are
                                      > for fairing. Once the surface is the right shape, you still need a
                                      > primer to fill those broken baubles and get ready for your final
                                      coat
                                      > of paint.
                                      > >
                                      > > Roger
                                      > > derbyrm@
                                      > > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                                      > >
                                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > > From: Dennis Mingear
                                      > > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:59 AM
                                      > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello, I'm new to the group, just joined today.
                                      > >
                                      > > Go to this link http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cm/index.html
                                      > >
                                      > > They have a nice article on very lightweight fillers and some
                                      > good info on various types of cloth. It's an homebuilt aircraft
                                      site,
                                      > so saving weight and construction time are important to them.
                                      > >
                                      > > Micro balloons and epoxy can make a very nice light weight
                                      > filler, but sanding it down to a mirror like finish will still be a
                                      > challenge.
                                      > >
                                      > > Denny ...
                                      > >
                                      > > "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@> wrote:
                                      > > Some great answers the only thing I would add is if you are going
                                      > to
                                      > > cover a boat with a tarp buy a good one and create a way for air
                                      > to
                                      > > circulate so it can dry out if it gets damp or wet.
                                      > >
                                      > > Jon
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Just resin is not the answer you need to glass cloth
                                      > > > to add bulk for the resin harden in also the cloth
                                      > > > helps in adding to the over all strenth of the hulls
                                      > > > as well.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Epoxy is the best to use and as for your glass cloth
                                      > > > look at your industral styles I like the 7781 for the
                                      > > > simple reason it's a satin finsh to the cloth so you
                                      > > > get a smoother finsh from the cloth then "boat cloth".
                                      > > > You are going to spend a bit more for your cloth BUT
                                      > > > it will save you hours in sanding time and epoxy to
                                      > > > fill the boat cloth.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I know they make a number of lighter weights of the
                                      > > > same style cloth but I can't remember the numbers but
                                      > > > if you look at www.fiberglasssupply.com I think is the
                                      > > > site they will have it listed.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Yep you will need to clean up the hulls to bright wood
                                      > > > and start all over. I'm sure you didn't want to hear
                                      > > > that.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Also make sure your hulls are sealed so no water can
                                      > > > get into them no matter where it comes from. That will
                                      > > > give your hulls the best chance to see a long and
                                      > > > usefull life.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Blessings Krissie
                                      > >
                                      > > ---------------------------------
                                      > > Get your own web address.
                                      > > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      > > ---------------------------------
                                      > > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s
                                      > user panel and lay it on us.
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      > > ---------------------------------
                                      > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
                                      > > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ---------------------------------
                                      > It's here! Your new message!
                                      > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • Dennis Mingear
                                      Completely agree, you can disappear in an instant, never to be seen again. That would really take the fun out of sailing, wouldn t it! Denny ...
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Jun 25, 2007
                                        Completely agree, you can disappear in an instant, never to be seen again. That would really take the fun out of sailing, wouldn't it!

                                        Denny ...

                                        lancasterdennis <dlancast@...> wrote:
                                        -
                                        Well Denny,

                                        That's a tall order in my books. I have never been under the gate in
                                        a small sailboat, but I know it can get really rough and dangerous
                                        due to currents as mentioned. When I think bluewater and rough
                                        conditions, I think, full keel, powerful hull design. Many a small
                                        boat has circumnavigated as we all know. Much of it has to do with
                                        the skill of the skipper and the soundness and sea keeping abilities
                                        of the boat. You will have to hear from more experienced Bolger boat
                                        owners as to the bluewater capabilites of these square boats. My Old
                                        Shoe will only sail on lakes... I'm done cruising and crashing around
                                        on the high seas.. even on my 11,000lb full keel 30 ft sailboat, I
                                        was still biting my nails a number of times. I recall speaking with
                                        the Pardey's at Port Townsend Wooden Boat show one year and what they
                                        said about going bluewater was to be sure your hull is sound... what
                                        can I say.

                                        Best of luck to you.

                                        Regards,

                                        Dennis
                                        Bellingham, Wa

                                        -- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Dennis Mingear <dennismingear@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Thanks Dennis, the Micro is cool, no doubt.
                                        >
                                        > Is there anything in the 14 to 18 foot range that uses plywood
                                        construction that could be used for that kind of sailing?
                                        >
                                        > A 16 foot sailboat would be about perfect, anything that you
                                        might recomend, that size, that would work in that kind of water?
                                        >
                                        > Denny ...
                                        >
                                        > lancasterdennis <dlancast@...> wrote:
                                        > -
                                        > Lets not forget the Micro. However, I would not consider the Micro
                                        > to be a bluewater boat and if you are talking about making the
                                        > Farallons...
                                        >
                                        > Dennis
                                        > Bellingham, WA
                                        >
                                        > -- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "derbyrm" <derbyrm@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I'm sure several others on the list will chime in. There is
                                        > a "Motor Sailer" variation of the Chebacco that was built for SF
                                        Bay
                                        > and the Cruising Conversion would help keep the cold breezes away.
                                        > http://www.chebacco.com/
                                        > >
                                        > > The classic boat for that bay is the Pelican, but it's not a
                                        Bolger
                                        > design, and the 12' version is not what one would call a pocket
                                        > cruiser. That said, until you have some sailing experience, there
                                        is
                                        > nothing more valuable than getting in with a fleet of similar
                                        boats.
                                        > http://community-
                                        > 2.webtv.net/PelicanSailboat/SFPELICANSAILBOATS/index.html
                                        > >
                                        > > Roger
                                        > > derbyrm@
                                        > > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                                        > >
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: Dennis Mingear
                                        > > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 1:42 PM
                                        > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > It is a great place, the aviation bent makes for higher prices
                                        > I'm sure. I only mentioned it because they have some limited but
                                        > concise information on fillers and so on.
                                        > >
                                        > > The alcohol dilution would only be used to fill the fiberglass
                                        > cloth weave. I agree with you in that it would not be appropriate
                                        for
                                        > anything else.
                                        > >
                                        > > I've spent a lot of time looking at pocket cruiser plans. I live
                                        > in the San Franisco Bay Area and I'm looking for a small plans
                                        built
                                        > sailboat that I could use to sail the Bay and cruise the coastal
                                        > waters of California including the Farallons.
                                        > >
                                        > > I know that boats like this are very personal but I'll venture a
                                        > question anyway.
                                        > >
                                        > > Do you have any comments for a small sailboat suitable for this
                                        > kind of work - uh ... fun?
                                        > >
                                        > > I've looked at several but I don't know enough about any of them
                                        > to make an informed descision.
                                        > >
                                        > > Thanks for any comments you may provide.
                                        > >
                                        > > Denny ...
                                        > >
                                        > > derbyrm <derbyrm@> wrote:
                                        > > Thank you Dennis. I prefer undiluted epoxy for filling since its
                                        > strength is important to the fiberglass/epoxy composite.
                                        > Microballoons have the lowest rating for strength of the many
                                        fillers.
                                        > >
                                        > > You'll see phenolic microballons used on my centerboard at
                                        > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm/CBdetail.html I'll be coating it
                                        > with graphite filled epoxy soon to make it more slippery and less
                                        > likely to jam in the case.
                                        > >
                                        > > I've been a happy customer of Aircraft Spruce for several
                                        > decades. Good stuff, good service, VERY high prices.
                                        > >
                                        > > Roger
                                        > > derbyrm@
                                        > > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                                        > >
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: Dennis Mingear
                                        > > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 10:04 AM
                                        > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood
                                        > >
                                        > > Yes, but, depending on the ratio of resin to filler you can also
                                        > use it as a filler for the weave of the cloth that you used on the
                                        > plywood. You can also include some alcohol in the filler mix and
                                        make
                                        > a very dry micro-mix that is very much easier to sand than just
                                        resin
                                        > and micro balloons alone.
                                        > >
                                        > > The aircraft people first fill the weave with a micro slurry and
                                        > then after sanding, fill the remaining or resulting pin holes with
                                        > various spray-on fillers with UV inhibitors.
                                        > >
                                        > > Lots of info on these procedures in the homebuilt aircraft world
                                        > and websites.
                                        > >
                                        > > So depending on the mix, it can be used for fairing and filling.
                                        > >
                                        > > Denny ...
                                        > >
                                        > > derbyrm <derbyrm@> wrote:
                                        > > As I understand it, microballoons, whether phenolic or glass, are
                                        > for fairing. Once the surface is the right shape, you still need a
                                        > primer to fill those broken baubles and get ready for your final
                                        coat
                                        > of paint.
                                        > >
                                        > > Roger
                                        > > derbyrm@
                                        > > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                                        > >
                                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > From: Dennis Mingear
                                        > > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:59 AM
                                        > > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood
                                        > >
                                        > > Hello, I'm new to the group, just joined today.
                                        > >
                                        > > Go to this link http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cm/index.html
                                        > >
                                        > > They have a nice article on very lightweight fillers and some
                                        > good info on various types of cloth. It's an homebuilt aircraft
                                        site,
                                        > so saving weight and construction time are important to them.
                                        > >
                                        > > Micro balloons and epoxy can make a very nice light weight
                                        > filler, but sanding it down to a mirror like finish will still be a
                                        > challenge.
                                        > >
                                        > > Denny ...
                                        > >
                                        > > "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@> wrote:
                                        > > Some great answers the only thing I would add is if you are going
                                        > to
                                        > > cover a boat with a tarp buy a good one and create a way for air
                                        > to
                                        > > circulate so it can dry out if it gets damp or wet.
                                        > >
                                        > > Jon
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@> wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Just resin is not the answer you need to glass cloth
                                        > > > to add bulk for the resin harden in also the cloth
                                        > > > helps in adding to the over all strenth of the hulls
                                        > > > as well.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Epoxy is the best to use and as for your glass cloth
                                        > > > look at your industral styles I like the 7781 for the
                                        > > > simple reason it's a satin finsh to the cloth so you
                                        > > > get a smoother finsh from the cloth then "boat cloth".
                                        > > > You are going to spend a bit more for your cloth BUT
                                        > > > it will save you hours in sanding time and epoxy to
                                        > > > fill the boat cloth.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I know they make a number of lighter weights of the
                                        > > > same style cloth but I can't remember the numbers but
                                        > > > if you look at www.fiberglasssupply.com I think is the
                                        > > > site they will have it listed.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Yep you will need to clean up the hulls to bright wood
                                        > > > and start all over. I'm sure you didn't want to hear
                                        > > > that.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Also make sure your hulls are sealed so no water can
                                        > > > get into them no matter where it comes from. That will
                                        > > > give your hulls the best chance to see a long and
                                        > > > usefull life.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Blessings Krissie
                                        > >
                                        > > ---------------------------------
                                        > > Get your own web address.
                                        > > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        > > ---------------------------------
                                        > > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s
                                        > user panel and lay it on us.
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        > > ---------------------------------
                                        > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
                                        > > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ---------------------------------
                                        > It's here! Your new message!
                                        > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >






                                        ---------------------------------
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                                      • derbyrm
                                        A few years ago there was a Rutan Long-EZ sitting abandoned in a hanger up in Seymour, IN. It s builder knew how many shortcuts he d taken in the fiberglass
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Jun 25, 2007
                                          A few years ago there was a Rutan Long-EZ sitting abandoned in a hanger up in Seymour, IN. It's builder knew how many shortcuts he'd taken in the fiberglass layup, and neither he, nor anyone else wanted to fly it. It looked fine with an excellent paint job.

                                          One problem with fiberglass structures is that non-destructive testing is very difficult. Out at GD in Fort Worth they had fancy ultrasonic test equipment, but it still required a great deal of operator skill and a lot of time to detect faults such as failure of the layers to properly bond or to wet-out the carbon fiber.

                                          Most homebuilts come out too heavy because the builder adds "just a little bit more structure here." Actually, that's true of prototypes built by the professionals too. I remember fierce battles on both the A-12 and the F-22 to go back and cut out weight, one ounce at a time.

                                          Roger
                                          derbyrm@...
                                          http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Kristine Bennett
                                          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 7:55 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood


                                          I'm one of those homebuilt aircraft nuts as well. It
                                          looks like the plans for our aircraft will be ready in
                                          the next few weeks so any boat building is on hold.
                                          But it doesn't stop me from looking. You know kind of
                                          like looking at a good looking woman walking by... You
                                          just can't touch!

                                          Well some times you can when she happens to be your
                                          Sweetie as well!

                                          A lot of the things you do on an aircraft to keep
                                          things as light as you can but still be strong works
                                          with boats as well.

                                          I have also seen the aftermath of boats being tightly
                                          tarpped for 6 month or longer and you can have a big
                                          mess with mold and funny stuff growing out of the
                                          ropes that were laying in the deck.

                                          On one boat I saw the latex paint growing mold!

                                          Blessings Krissie

                                          --- Dennis Mingear <dennismingear@...> wrote:

                                          > Yes, but, depending on the ratio of resin to filler
                                          > you can also use it as a filler for the weave of the
                                          > cloth that you used on the plywood. You can also
                                          > include some alcohol in the filler mix and make a
                                          > very dry micro-mix that is very much easier to sand
                                          > than just resin and micro balloons alone.
                                          >
                                          > The aircraft people first fill the weave with a
                                          > micro slurry and then after sanding, fill the
                                          > remaining or resulting pin holes with various
                                          > spray-on fillers with UV inhibitors.
                                          >
                                          > Lots of info on these procedures in the homebuilt
                                          > aircraft world and websites.
                                          >
                                          > So depending on the mix, it can be used for
                                          > fairing and filling.
                                          >
                                          > Denny ...
                                          >
                                          > derbyrm <derbyrm@...> wrote:
                                          > As I understand it, microballoons, whether
                                          > phenolic or glass, are for fairing. Once the surface
                                          > is the right shape, you still need a primer to fill
                                          > those broken baubles and get ready for your final
                                          > coat of paint.
                                          >
                                          > Roger
                                          > derbyrm@...
                                          > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > From: Dennis Mingear
                                          > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 8:59 AM
                                          > Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and
                                          > plywood
                                          >
                                          > Hello, I'm new to the group, just joined today.
                                          >
                                          > Go to this link
                                          > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/cm/index.html
                                          >
                                          > They have a nice article on very lightweight fillers
                                          > and some good info on various types of cloth. It's
                                          > an homebuilt aircraft site, so saving weight and
                                          > construction time are important to them.
                                          >
                                          > Micro balloons and epoxy can make a very nice light
                                          > weight filler, but sanding it down to a mirror like
                                          > finish will still be a challenge.
                                          >
                                          > Denny ...
                                          >
                                          > "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...> wrote:
                                          > Some great answers the only thing I would add is if
                                          > you are going to
                                          > cover a boat with a tarp buy a good one and create a
                                          > way for air to
                                          > circulate so it can dry out if it gets damp or wet.
                                          >
                                          > Jon
                                          >

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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Bruce Hallman
                                          ... Even large boats can experience trouble with the shoals, sea swell, winds and current. At times the sea swell from the west, the wind waves from the west
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Jun 26, 2007
                                            > Yeah! It would take a pretty special little sailboat and good timing to get out of the Bay and into the Pacific wouldn't it. If you didn't plan properly, the current could be moving faster and in the wrong direction, than the boat, that wouldn't be fun!

                                            Even large boats can experience trouble with the shoals, sea swell,
                                            winds and current. At times the sea swell from the west, the wind
                                            waves from the west can pile up on the shoals the strong outgoing
                                            current from the east in the area known as "the potato patch". Avoid
                                            the temptation to take advantage of an outgoing current when you leave
                                            the Golden Gate. Also, fighting the strong incoming current can be an
                                            uphill climb.

                                            http://www.seamagazine.com/destinations/DM_article.asp?id=713


                                            > The size of the boat, in my case, is determined by my available building and storage space and inexpensive trailering. It will have to stay at home when not being used.

                                            In my case, after a lot of research I found that Phil Bolger's Micro
                                            was the maximum boat that could fit on a trailer in my driveway. I
                                            built the 'Navigator cabin' Chinese gaff sail version, and honestly, I
                                            found the set up time of the Chinese gaff sail to be excessive for
                                            trailer sailing. After 3 years of begging I was able to get a tiny
                                            marina berth and I am very happy with this arrangement. Presently,
                                            with a marina berth, I get to use my boat in some way or another
                                            several days every week..
                                          • Dennis Mingear
                                            Thanks for the info (link) Bruce. And your right, having a berth makes for more fun and less driving and setting up to have funm, but around here, for me at
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Jun 26, 2007
                                              Thanks for the info (link) Bruce.

                                              And your right, having a berth makes for more fun and less driving and setting up to have funm, but around here, for me at least, planning for the worst and hoping for the best is a good strategy. I can't count on a berth for a small boat, so I have to consider which small boat would best fit my limited resources and provide me with the most sailing for the money.

                                              In my little town I can't park a boat in the driveway, it must go behind a gate on the side yard. Fortunately when we bought the house we considered parking for both a glider and a small boat. The side yard is just perfect for keeping these toys safe and sound. Of course as you point out a hangar and a berth would be ideal, but the SF Bay Area is simply to crowded and expensive to hope for either one, in the near term at least.

                                              The Micro seems to be a very nice choice and the Navigator options do look nice, setup time included. I ask alot of questions before ordering any plans or wood because I only get to do this stuff once, so I have to consider all options and then be content with all of the compromise that accompanies those decsisions.

                                              Thanks to all for your responses and links.

                                              Denny ...

                                              Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:
                                              > Yeah! It would take a pretty special little sailboat and good timing to get out of the Bay and into the Pacific wouldn't it. If you didn't plan properly, the current could be moving faster and in the wrong direction, than the boat, that wouldn't be fun!

                                              Even large boats can experience trouble with the shoals, sea swell,
                                              winds and current. At times the sea swell from the west, the wind
                                              waves from the west can pile up on the shoals the strong outgoing
                                              current from the east in the area known as "the potato patch". Avoid
                                              the temptation to take advantage of an outgoing current when you leave
                                              the Golden Gate. Also, fighting the strong incoming current can be an
                                              uphill climb.

                                              http://www.seamagazine.com/destinations/DM_article.asp?id=713

                                              > The size of the boat, in my case, is determined by my available building and storage space and inexpensive trailering. It will have to stay at home when not being used.

                                              In my case, after a lot of research I found that Phil Bolger's Micro
                                              was the maximum boat that could fit on a trailer in my driveway. I
                                              built the 'Navigator cabin' Chinese gaff sail version, and honestly, I
                                              found the set up time of the Chinese gaff sail to be excessive for
                                              trailer sailing. After 3 years of begging I was able to get a tiny
                                              marina berth and I am very happy with this arrangement. Presently,
                                              with a marina berth, I get to use my boat in some way or another
                                              several days every week..





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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Bob Slimak
                                              Regarding the use of Plastic Resin glue. This glue is considered to be water resistant, not waterproof. Urea Resin glue is waterproof. That being said, I
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Jun 26, 2007
                                                Regarding the use of Plastic Resin glue. This glue is considered to be water resistant, not waterproof. Urea Resin glue is waterproof. That being said, I have used it long ago for a boat that was only going to be in the water for day use only. Urea is nearly as expensive as Epoxy. Since plastic, urea and epoxy all have to be mixed, the only reason to use plastic is to save money, there being no savings in time. Neither plastic or urea are gap filling. That means that ALL joints must be tight as the glue itself has little strength. The optimal film thickness of none gap filling glues is .005 of an inch. This is why epoxy has become the glue of choice for boat builders, especially amateurs. Lacking computer controlled cutting equipment that a lot of "Kit" companies sell, we don't have to be so fussy on fitting joints, since the epoxy fill is stronger than the wood. Sometimes trying to save money comes at the cost of boat failure, such as evidenced by the original post
                                                on this subject.

                                                Bob Slimak

                                                PS - That half inch birch ply that fell apart. I have not used half inch, but that Baltic Birch 5 ply, be careful. Menards sell two types. One type in 4X8 sheet is the same as the 4X5 underlayment and has waterproof glue. They also sell another Baltic Birch 5 ply that is not rated for exterior and is not waterproof. If you ever use this (even for interior) make sure you are picking from the right pile!


                                                ---------------------------------
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                                                Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Chester Young
                                                I am curious; since this is a far flung group I anticipate widely varied responses. Here in Florida many of the counties have Manatee Protection Plans (MPP)
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Jun 26, 2007
                                                  I am curious; since this is a far flung group I anticipate widely varied
                                                  responses. Here in Florida many of the counties have Manatee Protection
                                                  Plans (MPP) specific to that county. This is a result of the lawsuits and
                                                  threatened lawsuits by Save the Manatee and various other environmental
                                                  groups. It has created a scarcity of in water and dry storage slips for
                                                  boats of all types. To maximize the economic potential for a given marina
                                                  many in the area will not rent a wet slip to vessels less than 30' in length
                                                  since a vessel is a vessel, and most of the MPP use some form of ratio for
                                                  slips, thus limiting the number of vessels in any facility. It is the slip
                                                  count limits that create a lot of scarcity, not physical space at the
                                                  marina. Several years ago when the office I worked from was near downtown I
                                                  would sail to a nearby marina that was managed by a friend. On one occasion
                                                  the powers that be (Florida Department of Environmental Protection) cited
                                                  the marina for having a vessel in a non-approved location, the vessel was my
                                                  12' O'Day Widgeon that does have a registration, but not a motor. When I
                                                  see photos of a Micro sitting in a berth of a large facility, I can only
                                                  think that is not going to happen here. I am fortunate to have access to
                                                  single family dock and a nearby ramp, so I can continue to launch, retrieve
                                                  and berth my small vessels such that I get a lot of on water time with the
                                                  Esther Mae.



                                                  What is the story else where? This is a group that thrives on small boats
                                                  and real use of the same. Much of the reason behind all the restrictions is
                                                  couched in 'public interest'; I see it functioning as public exclusion.



                                                  Caloosarat,



                                                  (also know as Chester Young, Vice President, Hans Wilson & Associates, a
                                                  highly effective group of marine and environmental consulting engineers)
                                                  www.hanswilson.com

                                                  _____

                                                  From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                                  Dennis Mingear
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 10:40 AM
                                                  To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [bolger] Re: delamination of resin and plywood



                                                  Thanks for the info (link) Bruce.

                                                  And your right, having a berth makes for more fun and less driving and
                                                  setting up to have funm, but around here, for me at least, planning for the
                                                  worst and hoping for the best is a good strategy. I can't count on a berth
                                                  for a small boat, so I have to consider which small boat would best fit my
                                                  limited resources and provide me with the most sailing for the money.






                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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