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Re: Strong Back or not

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  • lancasterdennis
    - Are we still on this thread?? Couple more thoughts in any case. My material costs were around $60 for construction grade lumber, I had to really sort hard
    Message 1 of 40 , Jun 22, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      -
      Are we still on this thread?? Couple more thoughts in any case. My
      material costs were around $60 for construction grade lumber, I had
      to really sort hard for the straightest sticks. My long runners had
      a slight crown, so I laid them out with crown up. The weight of the
      supports and bulkheads brought the crown out.

      Yes, Paul.... I'm with you, I am having the time of my life. I think
      and dream this project and can hardly wait to get out into the shop
      and do something. Its both rewarding and frustrating as all get
      out. Taking this pile of wood and turning it into a boat of all
      things. I'm like a kid again, building that pond boat that promptly
      sunk when I got into it with the ducks..hahahah.. I sure hope this
      does not happen on launch day!

      As for the Micro that got chopped up... gads, to think that all this
      toil and effort and expense will someday wind up as a pile of lumber
      again is a bit shocking. I looked at those pictures and
      thought...all those hours and hours of labor and effort.. I sure hope
      that the owner got some good use out of the boat before that end.
      And then it brings home the point that quality of materials does pay
      off... or better yet, anything properly sealed and prepped and
      maintained will last many, many years.

      Build-on!

      Dennis
      Bellingham, Wa (land of the ducks)




      -- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > As a carpenter that is on laders all the time even the ones rated
      for
      > industrial are not ridged with much load. As for the headers with
      > reversed crown it reduces the load that the header can carry
      (greater
      > load agenst the crown edge) and is not a good idea. If it is grean
      > and has no crown the edge that has the heart closest will be where
      > the crown forms. In gluelams they glue then out of 2X layed flat
      and
      > stacked in that case they reverse the crowns to help keep it
      strait.
      > Most gluelams are crowend and marked TOP so when delivered we set
      it
      > on blocks TOP side up tp keep them strait. Sorry but that is my
      > practical exspereance in 35 years.
      >
      > Jon
      >
      > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, William Page <billybouy2@> wrote:
      > >
      > > On the subject of strongbacks, I have a dim recollection of an
      > article somewhere ( on the internet?) about someone (in Canada?)
      who
      > was teaching (students?) how to build small boats. In any case, his
      > outfit had to be portable and he recommended the use of aluminum
      > extension ladder sections (reinforced with plywood or chip board?)
      as
      > the basis for a strongback. The virtues, if I recall (probably not
      > accurate!) were 1) low cost (presumably acquired at garage sales or
      > the like? or one-time purchase for multiple uses?); 2)
      perpendicular,
      > square and straight were pretty much established to tolerances
      beyond
      > what any individual's ad hoc approach was likely to achieve in any
      > equivalent amount of time: 3) the ladder isn't going to warp,
      swell,
      > whatever in reponse to changes in humidity.
      > >
      > > An old carpenters' trick for getting a straight header out of
      > curved boards is to nail two of them together, one "crown-up", the
      > other "crown down", beginning at the middle, with the edges flush,
      > and pulling the edges flush as one nails them together
      progressively
      > from the middle to the ends. The idea is that the "crowns" cancel
      > each other out, both initially and later when joined boards respond
      > to changes in response to changes in humidity.
      > >
      > > Ciao for Niao,
      > > Bill in MN
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Harry James <welshman@> wrote:
      > > Different ships different long splices. When we built
      the
      > Klondike replica
      > >
      > > http://209.193.28.16/Boats/Klondike/Klondike.htm
      > >
      > > Fritz Funk and I set the backbone up in about 2.5 hrs. We took
      care
      > to
      > > make it level and square, 6 ft level and sheet rock square. Every
      > frame
      > > location had a cross piece. We built the frames on a frame table
      > that
      > > had accurate vertical and horizontal measurements. When we set
      the
      > > frames up we did not bother to check for square, we assumed they
      > came
      > > off the table accurate. All we did was match the centerline of
      the
      > cross
      > > spawl with the center line on the strong back cross piece which
      had
      > > already been squared when it was installed, and make sure they
      were
      > > vertical with a level. When we installed the stem I stretched a
      > line
      > > from the transom center point to the stem and the frame center
      > marks
      > > were all exactly under it. We patted ourselves on the back and
      went
      > on
      > > to planking.
      > >
      > > The point being that if your back bone is square and level and
      you
      > are
      > > building your frames accurately, you don't have to fiddle with
      the
      > set
      > > up. That works for me, it isn't a mandatory rule.
      > >
      > > HJ
      > >
      > > derbyrm wrote:
      > > > I don't understand all this effort to make the strongback
      square
      > and level.
      > > >
      > > > The key is to make the bulkheads and molds square and level. I
      > used a cheap laser level as a non-sagging "string" from bow to
      stern
      > and a plumb bob, tape measure, and a bubble level to true the
      > bulkheads. It didn't matter if the "ladder" was true or not. It was
      > just something to hold the other parts rigid.
      > > >
      > > > Yes, there have been places where things went wrong, but it
      > wouldn't have helped to have a square and level strongback.
      > > >
      > > > Roger
      > > > derbyrm@
      > > > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: lancasterdennis
      > > > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 12:08 AM
      > > > Subject: [bolger] Re: Strong Back or not
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > The basic strongback is just a ladder in design. However, it is
      a
      > > > challenge to cut and align and achieve squareness. The process
      > took
      > > > me hours to accomplish, and that was only the beginning.
      Raising
      > the
      > > > Bh's and leveling and squaring and then reinforcing with cross
      > braces
      > > > took many hours to complete. So, now they are up and I have a
      > very
      > > > rigid frame to attach some interior cleats and cockpit sides,
      > then
      > > > the hull sides and bottom. I can now see the beauty of the
      effort
      > > > expended... working alone, I don't know what I would have done.
      > Yes,
      > > > to smaller boats, I can maybe see where no SB is needed, but
      the
      > size
      > > > of the Shoe is daunting for me.. I know that there are micro
      > builders
      > > > and maybe even AS-29 builders who did not use a SB.. how they
      > kept it
      > > > all square and straight and level, boggles my mind. I guess it
      > all
      > > > boils down to experience. And of course, the process produces
      > > > experience. I would like to hear how they did it... like the
      > Micro.
      > > >
      > > > Tks for all the responses and help to understand.
      > > >
      > > > Regards,
      > > >
      > > > Dennis
      > > > Bellingham, Wa
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------
      > > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative
      > vehicles.
      > > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
    • lancasterdennis
      - Are we still on this thread?? Couple more thoughts in any case. My material costs were around $60 for construction grade lumber, I had to really sort hard
      Message 40 of 40 , Jun 22, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        -
        Are we still on this thread?? Couple more thoughts in any case. My
        material costs were around $60 for construction grade lumber, I had
        to really sort hard for the straightest sticks. My long runners had
        a slight crown, so I laid them out with crown up. The weight of the
        supports and bulkheads brought the crown out.

        Yes, Paul.... I'm with you, I am having the time of my life. I think
        and dream this project and can hardly wait to get out into the shop
        and do something. Its both rewarding and frustrating as all get
        out. Taking this pile of wood and turning it into a boat of all
        things. I'm like a kid again, building that pond boat that promptly
        sunk when I got into it with the ducks..hahahah.. I sure hope this
        does not happen on launch day!

        As for the Micro that got chopped up... gads, to think that all this
        toil and effort and expense will someday wind up as a pile of lumber
        again is a bit shocking. I looked at those pictures and
        thought...all those hours and hours of labor and effort.. I sure hope
        that the owner got some good use out of the boat before that end.
        And then it brings home the point that quality of materials does pay
        off... or better yet, anything properly sealed and prepped and
        maintained will last many, many years.

        Build-on!

        Dennis
        Bellingham, Wa (land of the ducks)




        -- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Jon & Wanda(Tink)" <windyjon@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > As a carpenter that is on laders all the time even the ones rated
        for
        > industrial are not ridged with much load. As for the headers with
        > reversed crown it reduces the load that the header can carry
        (greater
        > load agenst the crown edge) and is not a good idea. If it is grean
        > and has no crown the edge that has the heart closest will be where
        > the crown forms. In gluelams they glue then out of 2X layed flat
        and
        > stacked in that case they reverse the crowns to help keep it
        strait.
        > Most gluelams are crowend and marked TOP so when delivered we set
        it
        > on blocks TOP side up tp keep them strait. Sorry but that is my
        > practical exspereance in 35 years.
        >
        > Jon
        >
        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, William Page <billybouy2@> wrote:
        > >
        > > On the subject of strongbacks, I have a dim recollection of an
        > article somewhere ( on the internet?) about someone (in Canada?)
        who
        > was teaching (students?) how to build small boats. In any case, his
        > outfit had to be portable and he recommended the use of aluminum
        > extension ladder sections (reinforced with plywood or chip board?)
        as
        > the basis for a strongback. The virtues, if I recall (probably not
        > accurate!) were 1) low cost (presumably acquired at garage sales or
        > the like? or one-time purchase for multiple uses?); 2)
        perpendicular,
        > square and straight were pretty much established to tolerances
        beyond
        > what any individual's ad hoc approach was likely to achieve in any
        > equivalent amount of time: 3) the ladder isn't going to warp,
        swell,
        > whatever in reponse to changes in humidity.
        > >
        > > An old carpenters' trick for getting a straight header out of
        > curved boards is to nail two of them together, one "crown-up", the
        > other "crown down", beginning at the middle, with the edges flush,
        > and pulling the edges flush as one nails them together
        progressively
        > from the middle to the ends. The idea is that the "crowns" cancel
        > each other out, both initially and later when joined boards respond
        > to changes in response to changes in humidity.
        > >
        > > Ciao for Niao,
        > > Bill in MN
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Harry James <welshman@> wrote:
        > > Different ships different long splices. When we built
        the
        > Klondike replica
        > >
        > > http://209.193.28.16/Boats/Klondike/Klondike.htm
        > >
        > > Fritz Funk and I set the backbone up in about 2.5 hrs. We took
        care
        > to
        > > make it level and square, 6 ft level and sheet rock square. Every
        > frame
        > > location had a cross piece. We built the frames on a frame table
        > that
        > > had accurate vertical and horizontal measurements. When we set
        the
        > > frames up we did not bother to check for square, we assumed they
        > came
        > > off the table accurate. All we did was match the centerline of
        the
        > cross
        > > spawl with the center line on the strong back cross piece which
        had
        > > already been squared when it was installed, and make sure they
        were
        > > vertical with a level. When we installed the stem I stretched a
        > line
        > > from the transom center point to the stem and the frame center
        > marks
        > > were all exactly under it. We patted ourselves on the back and
        went
        > on
        > > to planking.
        > >
        > > The point being that if your back bone is square and level and
        you
        > are
        > > building your frames accurately, you don't have to fiddle with
        the
        > set
        > > up. That works for me, it isn't a mandatory rule.
        > >
        > > HJ
        > >
        > > derbyrm wrote:
        > > > I don't understand all this effort to make the strongback
        square
        > and level.
        > > >
        > > > The key is to make the bulkheads and molds square and level. I
        > used a cheap laser level as a non-sagging "string" from bow to
        stern
        > and a plumb bob, tape measure, and a bubble level to true the
        > bulkheads. It didn't matter if the "ladder" was true or not. It was
        > just something to hold the other parts rigid.
        > > >
        > > > Yes, there have been places where things went wrong, but it
        > wouldn't have helped to have a square and level strongback.
        > > >
        > > > Roger
        > > > derbyrm@
        > > > http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm
        > > >
        > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > From: lancasterdennis
        > > > To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 12:08 AM
        > > > Subject: [bolger] Re: Strong Back or not
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > The basic strongback is just a ladder in design. However, it is
        a
        > > > challenge to cut and align and achieve squareness. The process
        > took
        > > > me hours to accomplish, and that was only the beginning.
        Raising
        > the
        > > > Bh's and leveling and squaring and then reinforcing with cross
        > braces
        > > > took many hours to complete. So, now they are up and I have a
        > very
        > > > rigid frame to attach some interior cleats and cockpit sides,
        > then
        > > > the hull sides and bottom. I can now see the beauty of the
        effort
        > > > expended... working alone, I don't know what I would have done.
        > Yes,
        > > > to smaller boats, I can maybe see where no SB is needed, but
        the
        > size
        > > > of the Shoe is daunting for me.. I know that there are micro
        > builders
        > > > and maybe even AS-29 builders who did not use a SB.. how they
        > kept it
        > > > all square and straight and level, boggles my mind. I guess it
        > all
        > > > boils down to experience. And of course, the process produces
        > > > experience. I would like to hear how they did it... like the
        > Micro.
        > > >
        > > > Tks for all the responses and help to understand.
        > > >
        > > > Regards,
        > > >
        > > > Dennis
        > > > Bellingham, Wa
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ---------------------------------
        > > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative
        > vehicles.
        > > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
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