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Re: [bolger] Imaginary Rig 58

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  • Chris Curtis
    Thanks Bruce for your thoughtful reply. I m working from home today (with two sick but cute kids). I have been meaning to ask you about the Microtrawler .
    Message 1 of 26 , Mar 8, 2007
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      Thanks Bruce for your thoughtful reply. I'm working from home today
      (with two sick but cute kids). I have been meaning to ask you about
      the "Microtrawler". It would fit my needs (I think) if I wanted to
      build a powerboat or own one again. I live near a very large lake,
      and the Microtrawler would be a good camping boat (in my opinion). I
      have owned a standard "powerboat" that was good for water skiing, and
      going fast, but useless for much else.

      I have a 15' Jim Michalak Philsboat under construction (hull is
      complete), and JM 26' Caprice has just been started (starting to
      build some of the bulkheads), and often my thoughts turn towards a
      powerboat beyond that.

      Hopefully some of the owners of the boats you brought up will chime
      in. I'd love to see some pictures, and read bout their riding and
      handling.





      Chris Curtis


      On Mar 8, 2007, at 10:50 AM, Bruce Hallman wrote:

      > > powerboat the Microtrawler would appear to fit my needs.
      >
      > The Microtrawler is a proven success, and some others on this list
      > with first hand knowledge will likely chime in.
      >
      > If 'fit your needs' means a big boat squeezed into a little package,
      > you are right on target. One overlooked issue, I think, is that the
      > time to build the detail work finishing all the big boat details into
      > that small hull take about as much time as building a big boat.
      > Though, Microtrawler will fit on a trailer in your driveway, where the
      > big boat would not.
      >
      > If you want similar, stepped up into a bigger boat, consider
      > Retriever.
      >
      > > Do you know of any other (successful) Bolger designs that use that
      > > flat "ski" leg hull?
      >
      > The 'ski' leg hull is well proven to work. Hawkeye, Fastbrick,
      > Watervan, have pronounced skegs, and others have a shallow 'shoe',
      > like Clam Skiff, and Topaz.
      >
      >
    • Howard Stephenson
      Chris, You might like to join the Yahoo Microtrawler group and look through the messages and photos there. It s not as active as this group and I m not for a
      Message 2 of 26 , Mar 8, 2007
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        Chris,

        You might like to join the Yahoo Microtrawler group and look through
        the messages and photos there. It's not as active as this group and
        I'm not for a moment suggesting you're unwelcome here.

        Howard


        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Curtis <ccurtis-keyword-
        sailboat.a927b9@...> wrote:

        >I have been meaning to ask you about
        > the "Microtrawler". It would fit my needs (I think) if I wanted to
        > build a powerboat or own one again.
      • hardystein2004
        ... How do you Reef it ?
        Message 3 of 26 , Mar 8, 2007
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          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
          >
          > http://hallman.org/bolger/Rig58/Rig58.png
          >
          > Anybody else fascinated with Bolger's 'imaginary' sailing rig 58? He
          > wrote that he knows of no boat built with this rig, (nor designed, I
          > think). I took the Rig 58 sailplan and applied it to stereotypical
          > Bolger box hull. The Ketch rig, combining a leg of mutton mainsail
          > with a lateen fore sail seems entirely workable, low stress and
          > powerful. Indeed superior for a tented camp cruiser. Someone should
          > whip out a prototype.
          >



          How do you Reef it ?
        • Bruce Hallman
          ... Read chapter 58 in _103 Sailing Rigs_ for the full detail, But, in essence, the rig is ideal for a place with light winds, interspersed with short
          Message 4 of 26 , Mar 8, 2007
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            > How do you Reef it ?


            Read chapter 58 in _103 Sailing Rigs_ for the full detail,

            But, in essence, the rig is ideal for a place with light winds,
            interspersed with short squalls. You drop the foresail during the
            squalls, and continue to sail with only the mainsail, lifting the
            leeboard to correct the shift in helm balance. Also, tightening the
            snotter on the the mainsail would flatten it reducing drive.
          • Chris Curtis
            Thanks Howard. I ll give that group a try also. CC
            Message 5 of 26 , Mar 8, 2007
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              Thanks Howard. I'll give that group a try also.

              CC


              On Mar 8, 2007, at 11:53 AM, Howard Stephenson wrote:

              > Chris,
              >
              > You might like to join the Yahoo Microtrawler group and look through
              > the messages and photos there. It's not as active as this group and
              > I'm not for a moment suggesting you're unwelcome here.
              >
              > Howard
              >
              > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Curtis <ccurtis-keyword-
              > sailboat.a927b9@...> wrote:
              >
              > >I have been meaning to ask you about
              > > the "Microtrawler". It would fit my needs (I think) if I wanted to
              > > build a powerboat or own one again.
              >
              >
              >
            • Kristine Bennett
              Chris, I have seen a Microtrawler up close and talked to the man that owned it. He loved it, but wished he had made it longer. He runs all over Lake Washington
              Message 6 of 26 , Mar 8, 2007
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                Chris, I have seen a Microtrawler up close and talked
                to the man that owned it. He loved it, but wished he
                had made it longer. He runs all over Lake Washington
                and lower Puget Sound in it.

                His list of complants was short 1. Flat of the
                sponsons drum a lot. 2. The head made easer to use
                when underway. 3. More room in the pilothouse for
                seating when you are running with guests aboard. He
                did say they were things you work around when you are
                out goofing off!

                He was planing on building one of the other Bolger
                boats that was bigger but I don't remember what one it
                was now. He liked going out on the boat for a weekend
                and spend 150 buck or less for the whole weekend.

                Seeing how you have children you may want to look at
                something a bit bigger so the whole family can go with
                you as well.

                Just my thoughts mind you. Seeing how I know the kind
                of hassles that can be had when you take two kids out
                on a small boat for a overnighter! I'll be honest I
                was ready to toss my partner's daughter over the side
                and not let her back in the boat!

                Blessings Krissie

                > >I have been meaning to ask you about
                > > the "Microtrawler". It would fit my needs (I
                > think) if I wanted to
                > > build a powerboat or own one again.
                >
                >




                ____________________________________________________________________________________
                Get your own web address.
                Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
                http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
              • Chris Curtis
                Thanks for your thoughts Krissie. When I think of owning (another) powerboat,I think about the Microtrawler. Possibly I ll build one in the next few years.
                Message 7 of 26 , Mar 9, 2007
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                  Thanks for your "thoughts" Krissie. When I think of owning (another)
                  powerboat,I think about the Microtrawler. Possibly I'll build one in
                  the next few years. If I was a wealthy man, I think I'd probably
                  spend most of my time in my barn working on boats. But alas, I have
                  to work (as most of us do!).

                  On the Kid front, I'm a bit torn. I have taken my kids sailing, but
                  not camp cruising. My current sailboat is not big enough for 4
                  (pigmies possibly, it does have 4 berths!). My current boat building
                  project "Philsbooat" will have much more space inside, but still not
                  big enough for a family of 4 to camp. My next boat "caprice" at 26
                  feet, could support 4, but I'm not sure it would work for anything
                  more than an overnight if that. If I focused on building a boat big
                  enough for our entire family to be comfortable in, by the time I was
                  done, they would be teenagers, and have no interest in sailing with
                  me anyway. So, I think my kids will have to be OK with our camping
                  trips, and trips to the Oregon Star Party. Also, we live in the
                  woods, so it's a bit like camping anyway!

                  I would think many would be in my boat (so to speak!)

                  Thanks again for chiming up!


                  Chris Curtis



                  On Mar 8, 2007, at 8:44 PM, Kristine Bennett wrote:

                  > Chris, I have seen a Microtrawler up close and talked
                  > to the man that owned it. He loved it, but wished he
                  > had made it longer. He runs all over Lake Washington
                  > and lower Puget Sound in it.
                  >
                  > His list of complants was short 1. Flat of the
                  > sponsons drum a lot. 2. The head made easer to use
                  > when underway. 3. More room in the pilothouse for
                  > seating when you are running with guests aboard. He
                  > did say they were things you work around when you are
                  > out goofing off!
                  >
                  > He was planing on building one of the other Bolger
                  > boats that was bigger but I don't remember what one it
                  > was now. He liked going out on the boat for a weekend
                  > and spend 150 buck or less for the whole weekend.
                  >
                  > Seeing how you have children you may want to look at
                  > something a bit bigger so the whole family can go with
                  > you as well.
                  >
                  > Just my thoughts mind you. Seeing how I know the kind
                  > of hassles that can be had when you take two kids out
                  > on a small boat for a overnighter! I'll be honest I
                  > was ready to toss my partner's daughter over the side
                  > and not let her back in the boat!
                  >
                  > Blessings Krissie
                  >
                  > > >I have been meaning to ask you about
                  > > > the "Microtrawler". It would fit my needs (I
                  > > think) if I wanted to
                  > > > build a powerboat or own one again.
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________________
                  > Get your own web address.
                  > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
                  > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
                  >
                  >
                • lakepepinmollyblue
                  ... Like mid-summer Midwest lakes. Bruce, you ve fired my imagination and provoked me to wade through knee deep snow this morning to dig out of a shed the
                  Message 8 of 26 , Mar 9, 2007
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                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > But, in essence, the rig is ideal for a place with light winds,
                    > interspersed with short squalls.

                    Like mid-summer Midwest lakes. Bruce, you've fired my imagination and
                    provoked me to wade through knee deep snow this morning to dig out of
                    a shed the Folbot lateen I've owned forever. About the same square
                    footage as the leg o' mutton for the Teal I'm building. 9' on the
                    foot. With two spars I'd have a small version of 58. Which hull?
                    Something from Payson to keep cost down.
                  • Bruce Hallman
                    ... I am sure you can tinker around and do it. Here is freeship fbm file of the hull I doodled. http://hallman.org/bolger/Rig58/rig58.fbm Be aware that the
                    Message 9 of 26 , Mar 9, 2007
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                      > Like mid-summer Midwest lakes. Bruce, you've fired my imagination

                      I am sure you can tinker around and do it.

                      Here is freeship fbm file of the hull I doodled.

                      http://hallman.org/bolger/Rig58/rig58.fbm

                      Be aware that the Bolger rig uses the boomless, long gaff,
                      Mediterranean style lateen rig, which I believe is different than the
                      Folbot style which has both a boom and a shorter gaff.

                      I don't know which Payson hull would be best, according to my
                      figuring, you need a pretty wide beam to get the correct sheeting
                      angle for the boomless lateen. Typical for all the cartoons in 103
                      Boat rigs, he shows the sail plan elevation view only, I sorely miss
                      seeing a Bolger's plan view of the cartoons, to deduce the beam.
                    • Howard Stephenson
                      Using Google Images to find a series of felucca pictures will show how they do it on the Nile. Their lateen sails use a boom and the boats are rather beamy,
                      Message 10 of 26 , Mar 9, 2007
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                        Using Google Images to find a series of felucca pictures will show
                        how they do it on the Nile. Their lateen sails use a boom and the
                        boats are rather beamy, with mostly steel hulls these days.

                        Howard


                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Like mid-summer Midwest lakes. Bruce, you've fired my
                        imagination
                        >
                        > I am sure you can tinker around and do it.
                        >
                        > Here is freeship fbm file of the hull I doodled.
                        >
                        > http://hallman.org/bolger/Rig58/rig58.fbm
                        >
                        > Be aware that the Bolger rig uses the boomless, long gaff,
                        > Mediterranean style lateen rig, which I believe is different than
                        the
                        > Folbot style which has both a boom and a shorter gaff.
                        >
                        > I don't know which Payson hull would be best, according to my
                        > figuring, you need a pretty wide beam to get the correct sheeting
                        > angle for the boomless lateen. Typical for all the cartoons in 103
                        > Boat rigs, he shows the sail plan elevation view only, I sorely
                        miss
                        > seeing a Bolger's plan view of the cartoons, to deduce the beam.
                        >
                      • gilberj55
                        I cruised several times with my 3 boys in a 21 foot sailboat designed for two to sleep. I grew up cruising with my Dad and a sybling in a 20 footer. I cannot
                        Message 11 of 26 , Mar 9, 2007
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                          I cruised several times with my 3 boys in a 21 foot sailboat designed
                          for two to sleep. I grew up cruising with my Dad and a sybling in a
                          20 footer. I cannot recommend highly enough the experience of sharing
                          your passion with your kids. It may only be for a day or two to start
                          with but its a gift they will always remember, go for it....

                          JG


                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Curtis <ccurtis-keyword-
                          sailboat.a927b9@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Thanks for your "thoughts" Krissie. When I think of owning
                          (another)
                          > powerboat,I think about the Microtrawler. Possibly I'll build one
                          in
                          > the next few years. If I was a wealthy man, I think I'd probably
                          > spend most of my time in my barn working on boats. But alas, I
                          have
                          > to work (as most of us do!).
                          >
                          > On the Kid front, I'm a bit torn. I have taken my kids sailing,
                          but
                          > not camp cruising. My current sailboat is not big enough for 4
                          > (pigmies possibly, it does have 4 berths!). My current boat
                          building
                          > project "Philsbooat" will have much more space inside, but still
                          not
                          > big enough for a family of 4 to camp. My next boat "caprice" at
                          26
                          > feet, could support 4, but I'm not sure it would work for anything
                          > more than an overnight if that. If I focused on building a boat
                          big
                          > enough for our entire family to be comfortable in, by the time I
                          was
                          > done, they would be teenagers, and have no interest in sailing
                          with
                          > me anyway. So, I think my kids will have to be OK with our
                          camping
                          > trips, and trips to the Oregon Star Party. Also, we live in the
                          > woods, so it's a bit like camping anyway!
                          >
                          > I would think many would be in my boat (so to speak!)
                          >
                          > Thanks again for chiming up!
                          >
                          >
                          > Chris Curtis
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On Mar 8, 2007, at 8:44 PM, Kristine Bennett wrote:
                          >
                          > > Chris, I have seen a Microtrawler up close and talked
                          > > to the man that owned it. He loved it, but wished he
                          > > had made it longer. He runs all over Lake Washington
                          > > and lower Puget Sound in it.
                          > >
                          > > His list of complants was short 1. Flat of the
                          > > sponsons drum a lot. 2. The head made easer to use
                          > > when underway. 3. More room in the pilothouse for
                          > > seating when you are running with guests aboard. He
                          > > did say they were things you work around when you are
                          > > out goofing off!
                          > >
                          > > He was planing on building one of the other Bolger
                          > > boats that was bigger but I don't remember what one it
                          > > was now. He liked going out on the boat for a weekend
                          > > and spend 150 buck or less for the whole weekend.
                          > >
                          > > Seeing how you have children you may want to look at
                          > > something a bit bigger so the whole family can go with
                          > > you as well.
                          > >
                          > > Just my thoughts mind you. Seeing how I know the kind
                          > > of hassles that can be had when you take two kids out
                          > > on a small boat for a overnighter! I'll be honest I
                          > > was ready to toss my partner's daughter over the side
                          > > and not let her back in the boat!
                          > >
                          > > Blessings Krissie
                          > >
                          > > > >I have been meaning to ask you about
                          > > > > the "Microtrawler". It would fit my needs (I
                          > > > think) if I wanted to
                          > > > > build a powerboat or own one again.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > __________________________________________________________
                          > > Get your own web address.
                          > > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
                          > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Kristine Bennett
                          Yes spending time with the kids and sharing your passions with them will last a life time. Thanks to my Dad I have a love for flying and aircraft and boating
                          Message 12 of 26 , Mar 9, 2007
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                            Yes spending time with the kids and sharing your
                            passions with them will last a life time.

                            Thanks to my Dad I have a love for flying and aircraft
                            and boating and building them. Yep even at 80 years
                            old we can sit and remember camping trips with the
                            Super Cub out to the San Juan Islands for a weekend or
                            boat trips out there and also working with him
                            building to fishing boats to fish in Alaska with.

                            In this hurried world of ours many forget it's the
                            little things the kids remember the most. So do
                            something with them that they will remember for a life
                            time.... Spend time with them!

                            Goddess Bless Krissie
                            --- gilberj55 <gilberj55@...> wrote:

                            > I cruised several times with my 3 boys in a 21 foot
                            > sailboat designed
                            > for two to sleep. I grew up cruising with my Dad and
                            > a sybling in a
                            > 20 footer. I cannot recommend highly enough the
                            > experience of sharing
                            > your passion with your kids. It may only be for a
                            > day or two to start
                            > with but its a gift they will always remember, go
                            > for it....
                            >
                            > JG
                            >




                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                            (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
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                          • Patrick Crockett
                            I would think that the stress on the yard (2/3 beyond the mast) would be pretty intense -- requiring a cross-section basically as big as a mast as tall as the
                            Message 13 of 26 , Mar 10, 2007
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                              I would think that the stress on the yard (2/3 beyond the mast) would be
                              pretty intense -- requiring a cross-section basically as big as a mast
                              as tall as the part of the yard extending above the attachment to the
                              mast. And this yard would have some freedom to swing out over the side
                              of the boat. So you need to design in some massive stability measure
                              (big keel or very wide draft). Looks to me like a bermuda rig would be
                              simpler and give you a head-sail with the efficiency of the slot for
                              upwind sailing. With a tabernacle if mast height is a problem.

                              Patrick

                              Bruce Hallman wrote:
                              > http://hallman.org/bolger/Rig58/Rig58.png
                              >
                              > Anybody else fascinated with Bolger's 'imaginary' sailing rig 58? He
                              > wrote that he knows of no boat built with this rig, (nor designed, I
                              > think). I took the Rig 58 sailplan and applied it to stereotypical
                              > Bolger box hull. The Ketch rig, combining a leg of mutton mainsail
                              > with a lateen fore sail seems entirely workable, low stress and
                              > powerful. Indeed superior for a tented camp cruiser. Someone should
                              > whip out a prototype.
                            • Chris Curtis
                              I completely agree with both you and Krissie about including the kids. One reason I m building the Philsboat is because of my kids. The tiny cockpit of my
                              Message 14 of 26 , Mar 10, 2007
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                                I completely agree with both you and Krissie about including the
                                kids. One reason I'm building the Philsboat is because of my kids.
                                The tiny cockpit of my Venture (standard clone fiberglass sailboat
                                with cabin) is outright unsafe for children, or anything more than
                                one average size adult, and one small adult. In the Philsboat, the
                                kids won't be able to fall over into the water, the entire boat is
                                "inside" with a companionway that goes from the bow to the stern.

                                My references to size in the previous post is mostly about
                                overnighting. I'd rather have a boat now and use it than plan for
                                the ideal later. My philsboat will be great to take the kids out,
                                but not for us ALL to sleep in. When I get to know my local lake
                                better, possibly I'll be able to do a cruise and camp onshore.

                                Sailing (and building) is actually very new to me, I just started
                                last year. My local lake has 111 miles of shoreline. I must get
                                more of a comfort level with it and whet it has to offer.


                                Thanks for the posts, I must go off to work for a bit today!


                                Chris Curtis



                                On Mar 9, 2007, at 5:37 PM, gilberj55 wrote:

                                > I cruised several times with my 3 boys in a 21 foot sailboat designed
                                > for two to sleep. I grew up cruising with my Dad and a sybling in a
                                > 20 footer. I cannot recommend highly enough the experience of sharing
                                > your passion with your kids. It may only be for a day or two to start
                                > with but its a gift they will always remember, go for it....
                                >
                                > JG
                                >
                                > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Chris Curtis <ccurtis-keyword-
                                > sailboat.a927b9@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Thanks for your "thoughts" Krissie. When I think of owning
                                > (another)
                                > > powerboat,I think about the Microtrawler. Possibly I'll build one
                                > in
                                > > the next few years. If I was a wealthy man, I think I'd probably
                                > > spend most of my time in my barn working on boats. But alas, I
                                > have
                                > > to work (as most of us do!).
                                > >
                                > > On the Kid front, I'm a bit torn. I have taken my kids sailing,
                                > but
                                > > not camp cruising. My current sailboat is not big enough for 4
                                > > (pigmies possibly, it does have 4 berths!). My current boat
                                > building
                                > > project "Philsbooat" will have much more space inside, but still
                                > not
                                > > big enough for a family of 4 to camp. My next boat "caprice" at
                                > 26
                                > > feet, could support 4, but I'm not sure it would work for anything
                                > > more than an overnight if that. If I focused on building a boat
                                > big
                                > > enough for our entire family to be comfortable in, by the time I
                                > was
                                > > done, they would be teenagers, and have no interest in sailing
                                > with
                                > > me anyway. So, I think my kids will have to be OK with our
                                > camping
                                > > trips, and trips to the Oregon Star Party. Also, we live in the
                                > > woods, so it's a bit like camping anyway!
                                > >
                                > > I would think many would be in my boat (so to speak!)
                                > >
                                > > Thanks again for chiming up!
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Chris Curtis
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > On Mar 8, 2007, at 8:44 PM, Kristine Bennett wrote:
                                > >
                                > > > Chris, I have seen a Microtrawler up close and talked
                                > > > to the man that owned it. He loved it, but wished he
                                > > > had made it longer. He runs all over Lake Washington
                                > > > and lower Puget Sound in it.
                                > > >
                                > > > His list of complants was short 1. Flat of the
                                > > > sponsons drum a lot. 2. The head made easer to use
                                > > > when underway. 3. More room in the pilothouse for
                                > > > seating when you are running with guests aboard. He
                                > > > did say they were things you work around when you are
                                > > > out goofing off!
                                > > >
                                > > > He was planing on building one of the other Bolger
                                > > > boats that was bigger but I don't remember what one it
                                > > > was now. He liked going out on the boat for a weekend
                                > > > and spend 150 buck or less for the whole weekend.
                                > > >
                                > > > Seeing how you have children you may want to look at
                                > > > something a bit bigger so the whole family can go with
                                > > > you as well.
                                > > >
                                > > > Just my thoughts mind you. Seeing how I know the kind
                                > > > of hassles that can be had when you take two kids out
                                > > > on a small boat for a overnighter! I'll be honest I
                                > > > was ready to toss my partner's daughter over the side
                                > > > and not let her back in the boat!
                                > > >
                                > > > Blessings Krissie
                                > > >
                                > > > > >I have been meaning to ask you about
                                > > > > > the "Microtrawler". It would fit my needs (I
                                > > > > think) if I wanted to
                                > > > > > build a powerboat or own one again.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > __________________________________________________________
                                > > > Get your own web address.
                                > > > Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
                                > > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Bruce Hallman
                                ... The bermuda rigs, by definition have wire, swages, turnbuckles, stays and spreaders which add stress, complexity and cost. These parts and pieces are
                                Message 15 of 26 , Mar 10, 2007
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                                  > Looks to me like a bermuda rig would be
                                  > simpler and give you a head-sail with the efficiency of the slot for
                                  > upwind sailing. With a tabernacle if mast height is a problem.
                                  >
                                  > Patrick

                                  The bermuda rigs, by definition have wire, swages, turnbuckles, stays
                                  and spreaders which add stress, complexity and cost. These parts and
                                  pieces are required to provide the high tension needed to keep the
                                  luff of the jib from sagging. All in all, bermuda rigs are really
                                  good at what they do, and were not possible until high tech materials
                                  made withstanding the high tensions practical. Most of the other rigs
                                  in 103 Sailing Rigs, like Rig 58, do not use high tech parts and
                                  pieces like a bermuda rig, (costly, high stress, and can break), so
                                  from this perspective a bermuda rig is not simpler.

                                  Rig 58 provides a low tech way to get the benificial smoothing 'slot
                                  effect' of a foresail, across a mainsail, like with a bermuda rigged
                                  sloop.

                                  And, yes, the thin yard of the lateen rig is at risk of breaking, but
                                  the breaking of a lateen yard is rarely catastrophic. Contrast this
                                  with the breaking of the stays on a bermuda rig, which is likely much
                                  more dramatic.
                                • gilberj55
                                  Having sailed with a lateen rig a bit I have to say I like it. Becaust the yard is slanted and swings around the mast, it tends to spill excess wind a little
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Mar 10, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Having sailed with a lateen rig a bit I have to say I like it.
                                    Becaust the yard is slanted and swings around the mast, it tends to
                                    spill excess wind a little earlier than a comparable modern rig. This
                                    mean the yard does not need to be as strong as it might otherwise
                                    need to be. Methods of reefing/reducing sail are a little more
                                    complicated than we are generally used to, so it may not be the best
                                    choice for a small boat on an extended open water passage. For day
                                    sailing and fine weather cruising, I think it might be hard to beat.
                                    The cant of the yard can be adjusted for different winds and
                                    different courses. With a loose foot(no boom) you need about the same
                                    consideration in your sheeting arangements as for a modern Genoa.

                                    Mine was a boomed sail on a small double ended flat bottom boat, sort
                                    of a decked canoe. The yard/sail was hoisted bodily to hook a ring
                                    onto a screw set vertically in the top of the short mast. I had a
                                    Brailing line which allowed me to fold up the sail completly in
                                    seconds during a squall, which I did a few times. Later I also
                                    installed reef points so after folding up the sail I could drop the
                                    yard, to tie in a reef ~50% and reset the sail and continue. I made
                                    several short cruises with this boat. Now almost 40 years ago it
                                    remains a fine memory.
                                    JG
                                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Crockett <pcrockett@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I would think that the stress on the yard (2/3 beyond the mast)
                                    would be
                                    > pretty intense -- requiring a cross-section basically as big as a
                                    mast
                                    > as tall as the part of the yard extending above the attachment to
                                    the
                                    > mast. And this yard would have some freedom to swing out over the
                                    side
                                    > of the boat. So you need to design in some massive stability
                                    measure
                                    > (big keel or very wide draft). Looks to me like a bermuda rig would
                                    be
                                    > simpler and give you a head-sail with the efficiency of the slot
                                    for
                                    > upwind sailing. With a tabernacle if mast height is a problem.
                                    >
                                    > Patrick
                                    >
                                    > Bruce Hallman wrote:
                                    > > http://hallman.org/bolger/Rig58/Rig58.png
                                    > >
                                    > > Anybody else fascinated with Bolger's 'imaginary' sailing rig
                                    58? He
                                    > > wrote that he knows of no boat built with this rig, (nor
                                    designed, I
                                    > > think). I took the Rig 58 sailplan and applied it to
                                    stereotypical
                                    > > Bolger box hull. The Ketch rig, combining a leg of mutton
                                    mainsail
                                    > > with a lateen fore sail seems entirely workable, low stress and
                                    > > powerful. Indeed superior for a tented camp cruiser. Someone
                                    should
                                    > > whip out a prototype.
                                    >
                                  • graeme19121984
                                    There may be no boat built with this actual rig, but PCB would know of a few that are really quite similar in concept. The mainsail may not have been a sprit
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Mar 13, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      There may be no boat built with this actual rig, but PCB would know
                                      of a few that are really quite similar in concept.

                                      The mainsail may not have been a sprit leg o' mutton. It may have
                                      been a lateen too, but I suspect this Roman-through-Arabic rig is
                                      too obvious for PCB. The mainmast rig giving him the idea for a more
                                      Northern European aft sail may have actually been the square sail.

                                      The ones he may know of might have derived from some rubbing of
                                      shoulders as in this 17th century painting by Abraham Willaerts of a
                                      French galley and Dutch men-of-war off a port:

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Abraham_Willaerts%
                                      2C_Galley_and_men_of_war.jpeg

                                      and overlapping the final period of the classic and medieval gallies
                                      like the "Real":

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_%28galley%29

                                      Replica "La Real", The Royal Galley, in Barcelona is 60 m long and
                                      6.2 m wide, has a draught of 2.1 m, weighs 239 tons empty, was
                                      propelled by a total of 290 rowers, and carried about 400 crew and
                                      fighting soldiers at Lepanto. She was, however, substantially larger
                                      than the typical galleys of her time:

                                      http://www.museumaritimbarcelona.com/default.asp?
                                      idApartado=104&idVisita=galera%20reial&num=1


                                      Recall what PCB offers about his historical hero, Roger de Lauria;
                                      Mediterranean pirates; Don John of Austria victorious at Lepanto (
                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Austria ); and etc etc in just
                                      two short paragraphs about the lateen rigged "Pirate Racer" in BWAOM
                                      pp98-99.


                                      Torchlight crimson on the copper kettle-drums,
                                      Then the tuckets, then the trumpets, then the cannon,and he comes.
                                      Don John laughing in the brave beard curled,
                                      Spurning of his stirrups like the thrones of all the world.
                                      Holding his head up for a flag of all the free.
                                      Love-light of Spain - hurrah!
                                      Death-light of Africa!
                                      Don John of Austria
                                      Is riding to the sea.



                                      And he finds his God forgotten, and he seeks no more a sign -
                                      (But Don John of Austria has burst the battle-line!)
                                      Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop,
                                      Purpling all the ocean like a bloody pirate's sloop,
                                      Scarlet running over on the silvers and the golds,
                                      Breaking of the hatches up and bursting of the holds,
                                      Thronging of the thousands up that labour under sea
                                      White for bliss and blind for sun and stunned for liberty.
                                      Vivat Hispania!
                                      Domino Gloria!
                                      Don John of Austria
                                      Has set his people free!

                                      (Extracts from "Lepanto" by Gilbert Keith Chesterton, - beggin'
                                      pardons all round) (The naval battle was perhaps historically
                                      the most decisive since Actium a very long time before in 31BC.
                                      It seems to me that one outcome Chesterton is particularly happy
                                      to see is the freeing of the (Christian) galley slaves. Another
                                      libertarian - with PCB approval?
                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto_(1571)


                                      Recently, there was an article about the Xebec (Chebec) lateen fore,
                                      square aft, rig at Gavin Atkin's blog
                                      http://intheboatshed.net/?p=609 There's a number of interesting and
                                      further links to follow up from there on the history of this C17th
                                      ship rig and a recent design adaptation of it. [Is that arrangement
                                      or the later West Med derivation reversed? Jim from Zanzibar is in
                                      the right place (Spain) to know. Not a prob anyway for PCB!
                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xebec ]

                                      Maybe imaginatve thinking like this is why PCB's hero (also
                                      Catalonia raised like the Don) the "Admiral of Aragon" escaped his
                                      temporal program, and was never defeated.

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Les_Formigues

                                      http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/LAP_LEO/LAURIA_LURIA_or_LURIA_ROGER_DE_
                                      .html

                                      http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Roger_De_Lauria

                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_of_Lauria


                                      IIRC I've read in a few places that the leg-of-mutton
                                      rig derived from the stepping of the lateen yard to serve as mast.

                                      Chappele in ASSC, pp 12-22, notes that in passing to the mid-1700's
                                      the pinnaces were the forerunners of the galley-frigates and these
                                      were occaisionally shown lateen rigged. These were about, as was
                                      the "two masted boat" with the shoulder-of-mutton shallop rig, and
                                      the pinnace's sister the barge. The barges apparently used a variety
                                      of sail: leg of mutton, sprit sail, and lateen. I don't think it is
                                      too far fetched to think that a boat may have been mixed rigged with
                                      at least occaisionally a l-o-m sail aft and a lateen fore sail.

                                      I'm sure PCB would know of any surviving record of this rig should
                                      such exist, so apparently it doesn't. Adding the sprit boom to the l-
                                      o-m would Bolgerise the Phantom Rig.

                                      Graeme

                                      ---------------------
                                      Pirates and Corsairs
                                      http://www.en.mhcat.net/oferta_museal/exposici_permanent/a_la_perif_r
                                      ia_de_l_imperi/bandolers_i_corsaris/corsaris_i_pirates

                                      http://www.en.mhcat.net/var/mhc/storage/original/image/phpQku0wr.jpg

                                      http://www.museumaritimbarcelona.com/default.asp?
                                      idApartado=142&idprensanota=8

                                      Battle of Lepanto
                                      http://www.en.mhcat.net/oferta_museal/exposici_permanent/a_la_perif_r
                                      ia_de_l_imperi/bandolers_i_corsaris/la_batalla_de_lepant

                                      Cervantes
                                      http://www.museumaritimbarcelona.com/default.asp?
                                      idApartado=142&idprensanota=7

                                      Model
                                      http://www.museumaritimbarcelona.com/default.asp?
                                      idApartado=141&idPublicacionTipo=11&idPublicacion=57

                                      Guides
                                      http://www.museumaritimbarcelona.com/default.asp?
                                      idApartado=141&idPublicacionTipo=3&idPublicacion=9

                                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > http://hallman.org/bolger/Rig58/Rig58.png
                                      >
                                      > Anybody else fascinated with Bolger's 'imaginary' sailing rig 58?
                                      He
                                      > wrote that he knows of no boat built with this rig, (nor designed,
                                      I
                                      > think). I took the Rig 58 sailplan and applied it to stereotypical
                                      > Bolger box hull. The Ketch rig, combining a leg of mutton mainsail
                                      > with a lateen fore sail seems entirely workable, low stress and
                                      > powerful. Indeed superior for a tented camp cruiser. Someone
                                      should
                                      > whip out a prototype.
                                      >
                                    • gilberj55
                                      Hi, I ll try to post a photo of a couple of racing boats out in the UAE. These are a popular local type....I ve seen them several time of Abu Dhabi, alway from
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Mar 13, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi,

                                        I'll try to post a photo of a couple of racing boats out in the UAE.
                                        These are a popular local type....I've seen them several time of Abu
                                        Dhabi, alway from a distance and often looking quite fast.

                                        JG


                                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > There may be no boat built with this actual rig, but PCB would know
                                        > of a few that are really quite similar in concept.
                                        >
                                        > The mainsail may not have been a sprit leg o' mutton. It may have
                                        > been a lateen too, but I suspect this Roman-through-Arabic rig is
                                        > too obvious for PCB. The mainmast rig giving him the idea for a
                                        more
                                        > Northern European aft sail may have actually been the square sail.
                                        >
                                        > The ones he may know of might have derived from some rubbing of
                                        > shoulders as in this 17th century painting by Abraham Willaerts of
                                        a
                                        > French galley and Dutch men-of-war off a port:
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Abraham_Willaerts%
                                        > 2C_Galley_and_men_of_war.jpeg
                                        >
                                        > and overlapping the final period of the classic and medieval
                                        gallies
                                        > like the "Real":
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_%28galley%29
                                        >
                                        > Replica "La Real", The Royal Galley, in Barcelona is 60 m long and
                                        > 6.2 m wide, has a draught of 2.1 m, weighs 239 tons empty, was
                                        > propelled by a total of 290 rowers, and carried about 400 crew and
                                        > fighting soldiers at Lepanto. She was, however, substantially
                                        larger
                                        > than the typical galleys of her time:
                                        >
                                        > http://www.museumaritimbarcelona.com/default.asp?
                                        > idApartado=104&idVisita=galera%20reial&num=1
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Recall what PCB offers about his historical hero, Roger de Lauria;
                                        > Mediterranean pirates; Don John of Austria victorious at Lepanto (
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Austria ); and etc etc in just
                                        > two short paragraphs about the lateen rigged "Pirate Racer" in
                                        BWAOM
                                        > pp98-99.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Torchlight crimson on the copper kettle-drums,
                                        > Then the tuckets, then the trumpets, then the cannon,and he
                                        comes.
                                        > Don John laughing in the brave beard curled,
                                        > Spurning of his stirrups like the thrones of all the world.
                                        > Holding his head up for a flag of all the free.
                                        > Love-light of Spain - hurrah!
                                        > Death-light of Africa!
                                        > Don John of Austria
                                        > Is riding to the sea.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > And he finds his God forgotten, and he seeks no more a sign -
                                        > (But Don John of Austria has burst the battle-line!)
                                        > Don John pounding from the slaughter-painted poop,
                                        > Purpling all the ocean like a bloody pirate's sloop,
                                        > Scarlet running over on the silvers and the golds,
                                        > Breaking of the hatches up and bursting of the holds,
                                        > Thronging of the thousands up that labour under sea
                                        > White for bliss and blind for sun and stunned for liberty.
                                        > Vivat Hispania!
                                        > Domino Gloria!
                                        > Don John of Austria
                                        > Has set his people free!
                                        >
                                        > (Extracts from "Lepanto" by Gilbert Keith Chesterton, - beggin'
                                        > pardons all round) (The naval battle was perhaps historically
                                        > the most decisive since Actium a very long time before in 31BC.
                                        > It seems to me that one outcome Chesterton is particularly happy
                                        > to see is the freeing of the (Christian) galley slaves. Another
                                        > libertarian - with PCB approval?
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto_(1571)
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Recently, there was an article about the Xebec (Chebec) lateen
                                        fore,
                                        > square aft, rig at Gavin Atkin's blog
                                        > http://intheboatshed.net/?p=609 There's a number of interesting
                                        and
                                        > further links to follow up from there on the history of this C17th
                                        > ship rig and a recent design adaptation of it. [Is that arrangement
                                        > or the later West Med derivation reversed? Jim from Zanzibar is in
                                        > the right place (Spain) to know. Not a prob anyway for PCB!
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xebec ]
                                        >
                                        > Maybe imaginatve thinking like this is why PCB's hero (also
                                        > Catalonia raised like the Don) the "Admiral of Aragon" escaped his
                                        > temporal program, and was never defeated.
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Les_Formigues
                                        >
                                        >
                                        http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/LAP_LEO/LAURIA_LURIA_or_LURIA_ROGER_DE_
                                        > .html
                                        >
                                        > http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Roger_De_Lauria
                                        >
                                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_of_Lauria
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > IIRC I've read in a few places that the leg-of-mutton
                                        > rig derived from the stepping of the lateen yard to serve as mast.
                                        >
                                        > Chappele in ASSC, pp 12-22, notes that in passing to the mid-1700's
                                        > the pinnaces were the forerunners of the galley-frigates and these
                                        > were occaisionally shown lateen rigged. These were about, as was
                                        > the "two masted boat" with the shoulder-of-mutton shallop rig, and
                                        > the pinnace's sister the barge. The barges apparently used a
                                        variety
                                        > of sail: leg of mutton, sprit sail, and lateen. I don't think it is
                                        > too far fetched to think that a boat may have been mixed rigged
                                        with
                                        > at least occaisionally a l-o-m sail aft and a lateen fore sail.
                                        >
                                        > I'm sure PCB would know of any surviving record of this rig should
                                        > such exist, so apparently it doesn't. Adding the sprit boom to the
                                        l-
                                        > o-m would Bolgerise the Phantom Rig.
                                        >
                                        > Graeme
                                        >
                                        > ---------------------
                                        > Pirates and Corsairs
                                        >
                                        http://www.en.mhcat.net/oferta_museal/exposici_permanent/a_la_perif_r
                                        > ia_de_l_imperi/bandolers_i_corsaris/corsaris_i_pirates
                                        >
                                        > http://www.en.mhcat.net/var/mhc/storage/original/image/phpQku0wr.jpg
                                        >
                                        > http://www.museumaritimbarcelona.com/default.asp?
                                        > idApartado=142&idprensanota=8
                                        >
                                        > Battle of Lepanto
                                        >
                                        http://www.en.mhcat.net/oferta_museal/exposici_permanent/a_la_perif_r
                                        > ia_de_l_imperi/bandolers_i_corsaris/la_batalla_de_lepant
                                        >
                                        > Cervantes
                                        > http://www.museumaritimbarcelona.com/default.asp?
                                        > idApartado=142&idprensanota=7
                                        >
                                        > Model
                                        > http://www.museumaritimbarcelona.com/default.asp?
                                        > idApartado=141&idPublicacionTipo=11&idPublicacion=57
                                        >
                                        > Guides
                                        > http://www.museumaritimbarcelona.com/default.asp?
                                        > idApartado=141&idPublicacionTipo=3&idPublicacion=9
                                        >
                                        > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > http://hallman.org/bolger/Rig58/Rig58.png
                                        > >
                                        > > Anybody else fascinated with Bolger's 'imaginary' sailing rig
                                        58?
                                        > He
                                        > > wrote that he knows of no boat built with this rig, (nor
                                        designed,
                                        > I
                                        > > think). I took the Rig 58 sailplan and applied it to
                                        stereotypical
                                        > > Bolger box hull. The Ketch rig, combining a leg of mutton
                                        mainsail
                                        > > with a lateen fore sail seems entirely workable, low stress and
                                        > > powerful. Indeed superior for a tented camp cruiser. Someone
                                        > should
                                        > > whip out a prototype.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • graeme19121984
                                        It d be good to see them JG, whether or not they re kind of Xebec rigged. Are they Xebec rigged? Graeme
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Mar 14, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          It'd be good to see them JG, whether or not they're kind of Xebec
                                          rigged. Are they Xebec rigged?

                                          Graeme

                                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "gilberj55" <gilberj55@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hi,
                                          >
                                          > I'll try to post a photo of a couple of racing boats out in the UAE.
                                          > These are a popular local type....I've seen them several time of Abu
                                          > Dhabi, alway from a distance and often looking quite fast.
                                          >
                                          > JG
                                        • gilberj55
                                          The photo is posted in the photo section of this group. Though I am familiar with Zebecs I am not sure of a specific description of the rig as zebec. In the
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Mar 14, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            The photo is posted in the photo section of this group. Though I am
                                            familiar with Zebecs I am not sure of a specific description of the
                                            rig as zebec. In the old days descriptions of vessels were less
                                            centred around a specific sail plan and more on a type. A Cat Yawl
                                            was a yawl boat, but not normally a yawl as we know it today, usually
                                            a ketch without a normal headsail, A Sloop was usually a small ship,
                                            A cutter may be square rigged and fore and aft one one mast, or have
                                            two masts or three and be what we might call a schooner or a ketch,
                                            possibly even as a lugger, usually used as a fast transport for mail
                                            and dispatches, and/or as revenue cutters. The earliest form of USCG
                                            used mostly schooners but they are referred to as cutters, which
                                            remains in use today. A cutter was also one of the boats carried on a
                                            Man'O'War.
                                            I'd call these boats a lateen ketch, adding they are lateen on both
                                            masts.

                                            JG
                                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > It'd be good to see them JG, whether or not they're kind of Xebec
                                            > rigged. Are they Xebec rigged?
                                            >
                                            > Graeme
                                            >
                                            > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "gilberj55" <gilberj55@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Hi,
                                            > >
                                            > > I'll try to post a photo of a couple of racing boats out in the
                                            UAE.
                                            > > These are a popular local type....I've seen them several time of
                                            Abu
                                            > > Dhabi, alway from a distance and often looking quite fast.
                                            > >
                                            > > JG
                                            >
                                          • graeme19121984
                                            ... Nice photo, thanks for posting. Folkard (1906 p431) has that rig down as Bugala , or alternatively Bugla . BTW, I was just flicking through the
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Mar 14, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "gilberj55" <gilberj55@...> wrote:

                                              > The photo is posted in the photo section of this group.

                                              Nice photo, thanks for posting.
                                              Folkard (1906 p431) has that rig down as "Bugala", or
                                              alternatively "Bugla".

                                              BTW, I was just flicking through the illustrations, and the closest to
                                              Rig #58 shown is of a Portugese cahique about 30' LOA. I say close, for
                                              though it is ketch latine rigged on identical fore and main, it has a
                                              smaller *bermudan* rigged mizzen of similar proportions on about a 16'
                                              yard set in the stern to serve as mast. Also, Folkard says they're
                                              fine, fast sailing. The main and fore yards, about 30', are of bamboo,
                                              and so light and stiff.

                                              Graeme
                                            • lakepepinmollyblue
                                              ... The Midwest lakes are trying to freeze again! Happily, though, time and resources have coincided with imagination. Made a few steps forward while the Teal
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Apr 7, 2007
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Hallman" <bruce@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > Like mid-summer Midwest lakes. Bruce, you've fired my imagination


                                                The Midwest lakes are trying to freeze again! Happily, though, time and
                                                resources have coincided with imagination. Made a few steps forward
                                                while the Teal awaits warm and epoxy.


                                                > I am sure you can tinker around and do it.
                                                >
                                                > Here is freeship fbm file of the hull I doodled.
                                                >
                                                > http://hallman.org/bolger/Rig58/rig58.fbm
                                                <http://hallman.org/bolger/Rig58/rig58.fbm>

                                                With some time I tackled Freeship which I had downloaded to see your
                                                work. Exploring your drawings and finding your tip for Bolger style
                                                hulls on the Freeship Yahoo group helped a lot. Here's my attempt.

                                                http://www.flickr.com/photos/63315352@N00/449393162/
                                                <http://www.flickr.com/photos/63315352@N00/449393162/>


                                                >
                                                > Be aware that the Bolger rig uses the boomless, long gaff,
                                                > Mediterranean style lateen rig, which I believe is different than the
                                                > Folbot style which has both a boom and a shorter gaff.
                                                >

                                                Folbot has sectional aluminum boom and gaff but gaff is longer. Made
                                                wooden gaff with rope groove ala Shorty Pen's Duckwork article. Menards
                                                provided a very nice 18' 2x4 with enough left for Teal bottom rubstrip.


                                                > I don't know which Payson hull would be best, according to my
                                                > figuring, you need a pretty wide beam to get the correct sheeting
                                                > angle for the boomless lateen.

                                                Started drawing looking at Windsprint and Light Scooner. Beam still only
                                                about 4 1/2'. Bolger does say (100 Rigs) 10 degrees from mast and (how I
                                                read it) let downwind fend for itself or mess with outrigger. Managed to
                                                get sides to straight cut panels so would build as Windsprint with
                                                addition of transom. Transom also opens options for sheeting sprit
                                                boom.

                                                Thanks for inspiration and help. Send any ideas and throw in a little
                                                West Coast warm!

                                                Bob






                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • graeme19121984
                                                Bob, that s a good looker! Some history of the Mediterranean lateen here may be of interest if not seen before
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Apr 7, 2007
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Bob,

                                                  that's a good looker!

                                                  Some history of the Mediterranean lateen here may be of interest if
                                                  not seen before
                                                  http://www.boatsyachtsmarinas.com/history/html/lateen_sail.html

                                                  They also show some great pics of a lateen regatta at St Tropez
                                                  (that might warm you up)
                                                  http://www.boatsyachtsmarinas.com/Events/html/lateen_regatta.html
                                                  Take a look at the "immaculate" coming about by one boat with just
                                                  two crew handling the yard heel. Apart from them and the helmsperson
                                                  the rest are probably just along for the ride ;-)

                                                  Graeme



                                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "lakepepinmollyblue" <barryhill@...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  > Here's my attempt.
                                                  > http://www.flickr.com/photos/63315352@N00/449393162/
                                                  > Bob
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