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Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?

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  • ANDREW AIREY
    I noted the concern about insulation in the article but wonder if it was misplaced.Always remember that WM was designed basically as a narrow canal boat with
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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      I noted the concern about insulation in the article
      but wonder if it was misplaced.Always remember that WM
      was designed basically as a narrow canal boat with
      enough sailing capability to get it across the North
      Sea or English Channel to explore the European rivers
      and canals - its why I was attracted to it until I
      discovered Dutch sailing barges.There are literally
      thousands of steel narrowboats on the English canal
      system - more now than when the canals were a truly
      commercial highway a hundred years or more ago - and a
      great many are lived on all year round.Two of my
      friends lived on similar boats for years.Bit of
      fibreglass,wood panelling and a good pot stove.Even
      now the Chinese have pushed steel prices up I reckon
      that you could get the hull built commercially in the
      UK for around the £10k mark.There must be 5
      boatbuilders within a 15 mile radius of Worksop and
      thats just off the top of my head without
      researching.I'd be more worried about sailing ability,
      getting round the Recreational Craft Directive,and
      getting some insurance on it,which is a point that
      I've not seen discussed on this forum - how are PCB's
      designs regarded by the insurance industry.Too many
      people seem to be wanting you to have 3rd party
      insurance these days.I would think that WM with a
      breeze behind it would go straight through a plastic
      noddy boat without even slowing down much
      cheers
      Andy Airey
      Ps Must do some research on sailing 'Cuckoos'- our
      local canal craft(72ft long)and same beam as WM,which
      occasionally carried sils on the Trent

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    • Christopher C. Wetherill
      I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal interior surfaces of the skin will sweat when they have water on one side that is cooler than the dew point of
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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        I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal interior surfaces of the
        skin will sweat when they have water on one side that is cooler than the dew
        point of the humid air on the other. This is not a serious problem in the
        engine room of a merchant ship, but could be troublesome on a small boat
        where the living spaces extend below the water line. Another reason to
        consider insulating the skin of the hull is that it greatly reduces the
        heating/cooling load.

        V/R
        Chris

        -----Original Message-----
        From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
        ANDREW AIREY
        Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 4:37 PM
        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [bolger] Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?


        I noted the concern about insulation in the article
        but wonder if it was misplaced.
      • Kristine Bennett
        Ok 1/4 inch steel plate is 10.20 Lbs per Sq Ft 3/16 inch steel plate is 7.65 Lbs per Sq Ft 7 Ga steel sheet is 7.5 Lbs per Sq Ft 8 Ga .164 steel sheet
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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          Ok 1/4 inch steel plate is 10.20 Lbs per Sq Ft
          3/16 inch steel plate is 7.65 Lbs per Sq Ft
          7 Ga steel sheet is 7.5 Lbs per Sq Ft
          8 Ga .164 steel sheet is 6.875 Lbs per Sq Ft

          I have seen 65 x 25 x 5 foot draft powerbarges built
          out of 3/16 steel plate the only place they were
          useing heaver was in the bow where you were likely to
          bump the beach and in the prop tunnles and they were
          1/4.

          I can see the 1/4 inch on the hull bottom but not for
          the hull sides. With the price of a good wire feeder
          under 2,ooo dollars US. along with some of the new
          welding wire you could have a nice hull in short
          order.

          If you make paper patterns of your hull sheeting the
          steel supplyer will cut the sheeting at a fair cost.
          And then is they are setup with a CNC cutting system
          the computer can nest everything so that is little
          wast.

          Krissie

          >
          > Assuming 1/4" hull and 1/8" topsides the shell dead
          > weight is 2.7 Ton.
          > After you add bulkheads and interior fittout,
          > probably 3.7 Ton.
          >




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        • Kristine Bennett
          There is also one other MAJOR thing insulating the hull does as well...it helps to stop the drumming of the hull and that can make for a sleepless night. Sound
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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            There is also one other MAJOR thing insulating the
            hull does as well...it helps to stop the drumming of
            the hull and that can make for a sleepless night.

            Sound does travle through steel very well below
            waterline.

            Kristine

            > I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal
            > interior surfaces of the
            > skin will sweat when they have water on one side
            > that is cooler than the dew
            > point of the humid air on the other. This is not a
            > serious problem in the
            > engine room of a merchant ship, but could be
            > troublesome on a small boat
            > where the living spaces extend below the water line.
            > Another reason to
            > consider insulating the skin of the hull is that it
            > greatly reduces the
            > heating/cooling load.
            >
            > V/R
            > Chris




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          • Kristine Bennett
            Hey Don in all the years I ve been welding I have yet to see a rod or wire for welding wood to steel.... Let s face it when you add wood decks and cabins to a
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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              Hey Don in all the years I've been welding I have yet
              to see a rod or wire for welding wood to steel....
              Let's face it when you add wood decks and cabins to a
              steel boat you have the best of both world....Rot and
              Rust.

              Dave Gerr does a good job of telling you how to work
              out your scantling for a steel boat in The Nature of
              Boats. I have also see a couple of other books that
              just talk about steel boat building.

              Blessings Krissie
              >
              > I would buy AS 29 plans and Lions Paw plans. The AS
              > 29 plans would
              > provide the panel expansions and other dimensional
              > details. LP will
              > provide the scantlings and tell you about how to do
              > it in steel. I
              > would guess a tank builder could prefab the bottom
              > including the
              > rocker, and the sides would bend around temp' frames
              > and tabs welded
              > to the bottom. I would be inclined to do decks and
              > much of the
              > interior in wood, but could also be talked out of it
              > for more steel.
              >
              > Don Schultz
              >
              >




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            • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
              I think you covered the steel pritty well as far as welding in thinner steel proper sized and type of rod gives a stronger weld and less disrortion. MIG can
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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                I think you covered the steel pritty well as far as welding in
                thinner steel proper sized and type of rod gives a stronger weld and
                less disrortion. MIG can have poor penatration and Inershield gets
                slag when starting and stopping that can cause pinholes. CNC is great
                but you need the specs on disc with a format that the CNC can use. It
                can be big bucks if they have to set up the cutting specs. They are
                more versatal now and shops can give help on what they need. Atkins
                has a 28' sternwheeler that is 8 and 10 gage steel

                Jon

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
                >
                > Ok 1/4 inch steel plate is 10.20 Lbs per Sq Ft
                > 3/16 inch steel plate is 7.65 Lbs per Sq Ft
                > 7 Ga steel sheet is 7.5 Lbs per Sq Ft
                > 8 Ga .164 steel sheet is 6.875 Lbs per Sq Ft
                >
                > I have seen 65 x 25 x 5 foot draft powerbarges built
                > out of 3/16 steel plate the only place they were
                > useing heaver was in the bow where you were likely to
                > bump the beach and in the prop tunnles and they were
                > 1/4.
                >
                > I can see the 1/4 inch on the hull bottom but not for
                > the hull sides. With the price of a good wire feeder
                > under 2,ooo dollars US. along with some of the new
                > welding wire you could have a nice hull in short
                > order.
                >
                > If you make paper patterns of your hull sheeting the
                > steel supplyer will cut the sheeting at a fair cost.
                > And then is they are setup with a CNC cutting system
                > the computer can nest everything so that is little
                > wast.
                >
                > Krissie
                >
                > >
                > > Assuming 1/4" hull and 1/8" topsides the shell dead
                > > weight is 2.7 Ton.
                > > After you add bulkheads and interior fittout,
                > > probably 3.7 Ton.
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                By sand blasting,painting and then having the hull spray foamed there is no air circulation agenst the steel and no condensation eliminating the things that
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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                  By sand blasting,painting and then having the hull spray foamed
                  there is no air circulation agenst the steel and no condensation
                  eliminating the things that cause rust to form. Homebuilder sheet
                  foam will not seel the air flow out well enough. For a lot of good
                  info on steel boat building and scantling use check out:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/

                  Jon


                  > > I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal
                  > > interior surfaces of the
                  > > skin will sweat when they have water on one side
                  > > that is cooler than the dew
                  > > point of the humid air on the other. This is not a
                  > > serious problem in the
                  > > engine room of a merchant ship, but could be
                  > > troublesome on a small boat
                  > > where the living spaces extend below the water line.
                  > > Another reason to
                  > > consider insulating the skin of the hull is that it
                  > > greatly reduces the
                  > > heating/cooling load.
                  > >
                  > > V/R
                  > > Chris
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • donschultz8275
                  ... I wouldn t assume that it is only for bigger boats. PCB did that single hand world cruiser, Colonel something that is steel. Not much bigger than a
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 2, 2007
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                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > So I take it the sharpie must be larger than a AS29 to really be
                    > practical in steel. Not necessarily AS39 big but maybe a AS34 or so.


                    I wouldn't assume that it is only for bigger boats. PCB did that
                    single hand world cruiser, Colonel something that is steel. Not much
                    bigger than a Micro.
                  • Christopher C. Wetherill
                    The first boat My dad bought was a TerraMarine. It was a 30 foot flat-bottom houseboat that could convert to a trailer. It consisted of a steel barge with an
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 2, 2007
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                      The first boat My dad bought was a TerraMarine. It was a 30 foot
                      flat-bottom houseboat that could convert to a trailer. It consisted of a
                      steel barge with an aluminum house. It drew about 6 inches. I would be
                      guessing at the thickness of the plate, but I do know a corrosion allowance
                      is necessary.

                      The previous owner left it tied to a dock and used it for a guest house.
                      Unfortunately, he left the shoreside power hooked up with the wrong polarity
                      for several years and electrolytically corroded the hull. Dad had to glass
                      it inside and out to stop the leaks

                      Another point of reference is Huckleberry Finn, a 50 foot Atkins houseboat
                      done for Motorboating sometime before 1953. This boat has 11/64 bottom
                      plate and 9/64 topside plate on 2x2x1/8 angle framing at 15 inch intervals
                      with 3 longitudinal 4x7.55 I stringers, 1/4x12 keel plates on top and bottom
                      of the framing, 3/16 bow and stern and 4 watertight bulkheads of 1/8 plate
                      with 1.25x1.25x1/8 angle stiffeners on about 18 inch spacing.
                      Unfortunately, displacement is not given. Gross dimensions are 50' LOA, 44'
                      LWL, 18' B, 1'-4" D.

                      The point is that, with competent design, a boat can be built of steel in
                      any size. Since framing and stiffeners are easy to attach, weight is not as
                      difficult a problem as one might think. Cost may be a different problem.

                      V/R
                      Chris

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                      donschultz8275
                      Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 3:15 AM
                      To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [bolger] Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?


                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > So I take it the sharpie must be larger than a AS29 to really be
                      > practical in steel. Not necessarily AS39 big but maybe a AS34 or so.


                      I wouldn't assume that it is only for bigger boats. PCB did that
                      single hand world cruiser, Colonel something that is steel. Not much
                      bigger than a Micro.
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