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Re:Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?

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  • ANDREW AIREY
    Hi All I hope the group doesn t impose the same penalties for apostasy that the muslims would like to,but,although I like the idea of a steel Bolger box,there
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
      Hi All

      I hope the group doesn't impose the same penalties for
      apostasy that the muslims would like to,but,although I
      like the idea of a steel Bolger box,there are some
      alternatives.
      1 Waterwitch
      This is the Maurice Griffith's 'Eventide' big sister -
      30' or 35' long.Plans are available for a steel
      version and second hand examples come up
      occasionally.If you don't like leeboards the mark1 is
      the one to look for.The mark2 only draws 2ft but that
      has leeboards.There is some antagonism between the
      Eventide owners association and the Eventide owners
      group.EOG is much more active but the EOA has the
      plans for the steel versions - cost$200-250
      2.Wylo 2
      32ft or 35ft gaff orjunk rig.draft about 3ft3in.Wooden
      upperworks on the 32ft which might be the way to keep
      the weight down on a steel bolger box.Several
      circumnavigations to it's credit
      cheers
      Andy Airey

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    • ANDREW AIREY
      I noted the concern about insulation in the article but wonder if it was misplaced.Always remember that WM was designed basically as a narrow canal boat with
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
        I noted the concern about insulation in the article
        but wonder if it was misplaced.Always remember that WM
        was designed basically as a narrow canal boat with
        enough sailing capability to get it across the North
        Sea or English Channel to explore the European rivers
        and canals - its why I was attracted to it until I
        discovered Dutch sailing barges.There are literally
        thousands of steel narrowboats on the English canal
        system - more now than when the canals were a truly
        commercial highway a hundred years or more ago - and a
        great many are lived on all year round.Two of my
        friends lived on similar boats for years.Bit of
        fibreglass,wood panelling and a good pot stove.Even
        now the Chinese have pushed steel prices up I reckon
        that you could get the hull built commercially in the
        UK for around the £10k mark.There must be 5
        boatbuilders within a 15 mile radius of Worksop and
        thats just off the top of my head without
        researching.I'd be more worried about sailing ability,
        getting round the Recreational Craft Directive,and
        getting some insurance on it,which is a point that
        I've not seen discussed on this forum - how are PCB's
        designs regarded by the insurance industry.Too many
        people seem to be wanting you to have 3rd party
        insurance these days.I would think that WM with a
        breeze behind it would go straight through a plastic
        noddy boat without even slowing down much
        cheers
        Andy Airey
        Ps Must do some research on sailing 'Cuckoos'- our
        local canal craft(72ft long)and same beam as WM,which
        occasionally carried sils on the Trent

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      • Christopher C. Wetherill
        I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal interior surfaces of the skin will sweat when they have water on one side that is cooler than the dew point of
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
          I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal interior surfaces of the
          skin will sweat when they have water on one side that is cooler than the dew
          point of the humid air on the other. This is not a serious problem in the
          engine room of a merchant ship, but could be troublesome on a small boat
          where the living spaces extend below the water line. Another reason to
          consider insulating the skin of the hull is that it greatly reduces the
          heating/cooling load.

          V/R
          Chris

          -----Original Message-----
          From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
          ANDREW AIREY
          Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 4:37 PM
          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [bolger] Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?


          I noted the concern about insulation in the article
          but wonder if it was misplaced.
        • Kristine Bennett
          Ok 1/4 inch steel plate is 10.20 Lbs per Sq Ft 3/16 inch steel plate is 7.65 Lbs per Sq Ft 7 Ga steel sheet is 7.5 Lbs per Sq Ft 8 Ga .164 steel sheet
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
            Ok 1/4 inch steel plate is 10.20 Lbs per Sq Ft
            3/16 inch steel plate is 7.65 Lbs per Sq Ft
            7 Ga steel sheet is 7.5 Lbs per Sq Ft
            8 Ga .164 steel sheet is 6.875 Lbs per Sq Ft

            I have seen 65 x 25 x 5 foot draft powerbarges built
            out of 3/16 steel plate the only place they were
            useing heaver was in the bow where you were likely to
            bump the beach and in the prop tunnles and they were
            1/4.

            I can see the 1/4 inch on the hull bottom but not for
            the hull sides. With the price of a good wire feeder
            under 2,ooo dollars US. along with some of the new
            welding wire you could have a nice hull in short
            order.

            If you make paper patterns of your hull sheeting the
            steel supplyer will cut the sheeting at a fair cost.
            And then is they are setup with a CNC cutting system
            the computer can nest everything so that is little
            wast.

            Krissie

            >
            > Assuming 1/4" hull and 1/8" topsides the shell dead
            > weight is 2.7 Ton.
            > After you add bulkheads and interior fittout,
            > probably 3.7 Ton.
            >




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          • Kristine Bennett
            There is also one other MAJOR thing insulating the hull does as well...it helps to stop the drumming of the hull and that can make for a sleepless night. Sound
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
              There is also one other MAJOR thing insulating the
              hull does as well...it helps to stop the drumming of
              the hull and that can make for a sleepless night.

              Sound does travle through steel very well below
              waterline.

              Kristine

              > I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal
              > interior surfaces of the
              > skin will sweat when they have water on one side
              > that is cooler than the dew
              > point of the humid air on the other. This is not a
              > serious problem in the
              > engine room of a merchant ship, but could be
              > troublesome on a small boat
              > where the living spaces extend below the water line.
              > Another reason to
              > consider insulating the skin of the hull is that it
              > greatly reduces the
              > heating/cooling load.
              >
              > V/R
              > Chris




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            • Kristine Bennett
              Hey Don in all the years I ve been welding I have yet to see a rod or wire for welding wood to steel.... Let s face it when you add wood decks and cabins to a
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
                Hey Don in all the years I've been welding I have yet
                to see a rod or wire for welding wood to steel....
                Let's face it when you add wood decks and cabins to a
                steel boat you have the best of both world....Rot and
                Rust.

                Dave Gerr does a good job of telling you how to work
                out your scantling for a steel boat in The Nature of
                Boats. I have also see a couple of other books that
                just talk about steel boat building.

                Blessings Krissie
                >
                > I would buy AS 29 plans and Lions Paw plans. The AS
                > 29 plans would
                > provide the panel expansions and other dimensional
                > details. LP will
                > provide the scantlings and tell you about how to do
                > it in steel. I
                > would guess a tank builder could prefab the bottom
                > including the
                > rocker, and the sides would bend around temp' frames
                > and tabs welded
                > to the bottom. I would be inclined to do decks and
                > much of the
                > interior in wood, but could also be talked out of it
                > for more steel.
                >
                > Don Schultz
                >
                >




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              • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                I think you covered the steel pritty well as far as welding in thinner steel proper sized and type of rod gives a stronger weld and less disrortion. MIG can
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
                  I think you covered the steel pritty well as far as welding in
                  thinner steel proper sized and type of rod gives a stronger weld and
                  less disrortion. MIG can have poor penatration and Inershield gets
                  slag when starting and stopping that can cause pinholes. CNC is great
                  but you need the specs on disc with a format that the CNC can use. It
                  can be big bucks if they have to set up the cutting specs. They are
                  more versatal now and shops can give help on what they need. Atkins
                  has a 28' sternwheeler that is 8 and 10 gage steel

                  Jon

                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Ok 1/4 inch steel plate is 10.20 Lbs per Sq Ft
                  > 3/16 inch steel plate is 7.65 Lbs per Sq Ft
                  > 7 Ga steel sheet is 7.5 Lbs per Sq Ft
                  > 8 Ga .164 steel sheet is 6.875 Lbs per Sq Ft
                  >
                  > I have seen 65 x 25 x 5 foot draft powerbarges built
                  > out of 3/16 steel plate the only place they were
                  > useing heaver was in the bow where you were likely to
                  > bump the beach and in the prop tunnles and they were
                  > 1/4.
                  >
                  > I can see the 1/4 inch on the hull bottom but not for
                  > the hull sides. With the price of a good wire feeder
                  > under 2,ooo dollars US. along with some of the new
                  > welding wire you could have a nice hull in short
                  > order.
                  >
                  > If you make paper patterns of your hull sheeting the
                  > steel supplyer will cut the sheeting at a fair cost.
                  > And then is they are setup with a CNC cutting system
                  > the computer can nest everything so that is little
                  > wast.
                  >
                  > Krissie
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Assuming 1/4" hull and 1/8" topsides the shell dead
                  > > weight is 2.7 Ton.
                  > > After you add bulkheads and interior fittout,
                  > > probably 3.7 Ton.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                  By sand blasting,painting and then having the hull spray foamed there is no air circulation agenst the steel and no condensation eliminating the things that
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
                    By sand blasting,painting and then having the hull spray foamed
                    there is no air circulation agenst the steel and no condensation
                    eliminating the things that cause rust to form. Homebuilder sheet
                    foam will not seel the air flow out well enough. For a lot of good
                    info on steel boat building and scantling use check out:
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/

                    Jon


                    > > I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal
                    > > interior surfaces of the
                    > > skin will sweat when they have water on one side
                    > > that is cooler than the dew
                    > > point of the humid air on the other. This is not a
                    > > serious problem in the
                    > > engine room of a merchant ship, but could be
                    > > troublesome on a small boat
                    > > where the living spaces extend below the water line.
                    > > Another reason to
                    > > consider insulating the skin of the hull is that it
                    > > greatly reduces the
                    > > heating/cooling load.
                    > >
                    > > V/R
                    > > Chris
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • donschultz8275
                    ... I wouldn t assume that it is only for bigger boats. PCB did that single hand world cruiser, Colonel something that is steel. Not much bigger than a
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 2, 2007
                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > So I take it the sharpie must be larger than a AS29 to really be
                      > practical in steel. Not necessarily AS39 big but maybe a AS34 or so.


                      I wouldn't assume that it is only for bigger boats. PCB did that
                      single hand world cruiser, Colonel something that is steel. Not much
                      bigger than a Micro.
                    • Christopher C. Wetherill
                      The first boat My dad bought was a TerraMarine. It was a 30 foot flat-bottom houseboat that could convert to a trailer. It consisted of a steel barge with an
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 2, 2007
                        The first boat My dad bought was a TerraMarine. It was a 30 foot
                        flat-bottom houseboat that could convert to a trailer. It consisted of a
                        steel barge with an aluminum house. It drew about 6 inches. I would be
                        guessing at the thickness of the plate, but I do know a corrosion allowance
                        is necessary.

                        The previous owner left it tied to a dock and used it for a guest house.
                        Unfortunately, he left the shoreside power hooked up with the wrong polarity
                        for several years and electrolytically corroded the hull. Dad had to glass
                        it inside and out to stop the leaks

                        Another point of reference is Huckleberry Finn, a 50 foot Atkins houseboat
                        done for Motorboating sometime before 1953. This boat has 11/64 bottom
                        plate and 9/64 topside plate on 2x2x1/8 angle framing at 15 inch intervals
                        with 3 longitudinal 4x7.55 I stringers, 1/4x12 keel plates on top and bottom
                        of the framing, 3/16 bow and stern and 4 watertight bulkheads of 1/8 plate
                        with 1.25x1.25x1/8 angle stiffeners on about 18 inch spacing.
                        Unfortunately, displacement is not given. Gross dimensions are 50' LOA, 44'
                        LWL, 18' B, 1'-4" D.

                        The point is that, with competent design, a boat can be built of steel in
                        any size. Since framing and stiffeners are easy to attach, weight is not as
                        difficult a problem as one might think. Cost may be a different problem.

                        V/R
                        Chris

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                        donschultz8275
                        Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 3:15 AM
                        To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [bolger] Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?


                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > So I take it the sharpie must be larger than a AS29 to really be
                        > practical in steel. Not necessarily AS39 big but maybe a AS34 or so.


                        I wouldn't assume that it is only for bigger boats. PCB did that
                        single hand world cruiser, Colonel something that is steel. Not much
                        bigger than a Micro.
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