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Re: [bolger] Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?

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  • Bruce Hallman
    ... My hunch is that it would be more efficient to maker her wider and deeper, not longer, to achieve the increase in buoyancy that you seek. (Though wider
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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      On 2/1/07, goadarama <goadarama@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > So I take it the sharpie must be larger than a AS29 to really be
      > practical in steel. Not necessarily AS39 big but maybe a AS34 or so.

      My hunch is that it would be more efficient to maker her wider and
      deeper, not longer, to achieve the increase in buoyancy that you seek.
      (Though wider means loss of trailerablity, move interior volume, and
      she would no longer be an AS29.)

      You might consider a Superbrick. <grin>.

      FWIW, pasted below are the hydrostatics of a steel AS29

      Assuming 1/4" hull and 1/8" topsides the shell dead weight is 2.7 Ton.
      After you add bulkheads and interior fittout, probably 3.7 Ton.

      But the design waterline, as I see it, allows for only 3.6 Ton.

      Project : Advanced Sharpie AS29
      Designer : Phil Bolger
      Created by : BruceHallman
      Filename : C:\Documents and
      Settings\BruceH.TUTOR536\Desktop\FS\FreeShip\AS29.fbm

      Design length : 29.500 [ft]
      Length over all : 29.438 [ft]
      Design beam : 8.000 [ft]
      Beam over all : 8.556 [ft]
      Design draft : 1.250 [ft]
      Midship location : 14.750 [ft]
      Water density : 63.989 [lbs/ft3]
      Appendage coefficient : 1.0000
      Volume properties:
      Displaced volume : 125.27 [ft3]
      Displacement : 3.579 [tons]
      Total length of submerged body : 21.981 [ft]
      Total beam of submerged body : 8.556 [ft]
      Block coefficient : 0.5329
      Prismatic coefficient : 0.5873
      Vert. prismatic coefficient : 0.6262
      Wetted surface area : 194.73 [ft2]
      Longitudinal center of buoyancy : 14.074 [ft]
      Longitudinal center of buoyancy : -3.076 [%]
      Vertical center of buoyancy : 0.784 [ft]
      Midship properties:
      Midship section area : 9.704 [ft2]
      Midship coefficient : 0.9074
      Waterplane properties:
      Length on waterline : 21.981 [ft]
      Beam on waterline : 8.530 [ft]
      Waterplane area : 160.03 [ft2]
      Waterplane coefficient : 0.8509
      Waterplane center of floatation : 14.016 [ft]
      Entrance angle : -89.299 [degr.]
      Transverse moment of inertia : 768.30 [ft4]
      Longitudinal moment of inertia : 5561.4 [ft4]
      Initial stability:
      Transverse metacentric height : 6.917 [ft]
      Longitudinal metacentric height : 45.179 [ft]
      Lateral plane:
      Lateral area : 17.432 [ft2]
      Longitudinal center of effort : 14.354 [ft]
      Vertical center of effort : 0.762 [ft]




      The following layer properties are calculated for both sides of the ship:
      | Layer | Area | Thickness | Weight | COG X |
      COG Y | COG Z |
      | | [ft2] | | [tons] | [ft] |
      [ft] | [ft] |
      |-------------------------|--------|-----------|----------|---------|---------|---------|
      | hull | 484.56 | 0.250 | 2.208 | 14.339 |
      0.000 | 2.083 |
      | deck | 226.57 | 0.125 | 0.516 | 14.157 |
      0.000 | 5.304 |
      |-------------------------|--------|-----------|----------|---------|---------|---------|
      Total 711.13 2.725 14.304
      0.000 2.693


      Sectional areas:

      | Location | Area |
      | [ft] | [ft2] |
      |-----------+----------|
      | 2.000 | 0.000 |
      | 4.000 | 0.408 |
      | 6.000 | 3.112 |
      | 8.000 | 5.564 |
      | 10.000 | 8.066 |
      | 12.000 | 9.189 |
      | 14.000 | 10.182 |
      | 16.000 | 8.899 |
      | 18.000 | 7.625 |
      | 20.000 | 5.311 |
      | 22.000 | 3.251 |
      | 24.000 | 1.199 |
      | 26.000 | 0.000 |
      |-----------+----------|
    • ANDREW AIREY
      Hi All I hope the group doesn t impose the same penalties for apostasy that the muslims would like to,but,although I like the idea of a steel Bolger box,there
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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        Hi All

        I hope the group doesn't impose the same penalties for
        apostasy that the muslims would like to,but,although I
        like the idea of a steel Bolger box,there are some
        alternatives.
        1 Waterwitch
        This is the Maurice Griffith's 'Eventide' big sister -
        30' or 35' long.Plans are available for a steel
        version and second hand examples come up
        occasionally.If you don't like leeboards the mark1 is
        the one to look for.The mark2 only draws 2ft but that
        has leeboards.There is some antagonism between the
        Eventide owners association and the Eventide owners
        group.EOG is much more active but the EOA has the
        plans for the steel versions - cost$200-250
        2.Wylo 2
        32ft or 35ft gaff orjunk rig.draft about 3ft3in.Wooden
        upperworks on the 32ft which might be the way to keep
        the weight down on a steel bolger box.Several
        circumnavigations to it's credit
        cheers
        Andy Airey

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      • ANDREW AIREY
        I noted the concern about insulation in the article but wonder if it was misplaced.Always remember that WM was designed basically as a narrow canal boat with
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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          I noted the concern about insulation in the article
          but wonder if it was misplaced.Always remember that WM
          was designed basically as a narrow canal boat with
          enough sailing capability to get it across the North
          Sea or English Channel to explore the European rivers
          and canals - its why I was attracted to it until I
          discovered Dutch sailing barges.There are literally
          thousands of steel narrowboats on the English canal
          system - more now than when the canals were a truly
          commercial highway a hundred years or more ago - and a
          great many are lived on all year round.Two of my
          friends lived on similar boats for years.Bit of
          fibreglass,wood panelling and a good pot stove.Even
          now the Chinese have pushed steel prices up I reckon
          that you could get the hull built commercially in the
          UK for around the £10k mark.There must be 5
          boatbuilders within a 15 mile radius of Worksop and
          thats just off the top of my head without
          researching.I'd be more worried about sailing ability,
          getting round the Recreational Craft Directive,and
          getting some insurance on it,which is a point that
          I've not seen discussed on this forum - how are PCB's
          designs regarded by the insurance industry.Too many
          people seem to be wanting you to have 3rd party
          insurance these days.I would think that WM with a
          breeze behind it would go straight through a plastic
          noddy boat without even slowing down much
          cheers
          Andy Airey
          Ps Must do some research on sailing 'Cuckoos'- our
          local canal craft(72ft long)and same beam as WM,which
          occasionally carried sils on the Trent

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        • Christopher C. Wetherill
          I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal interior surfaces of the skin will sweat when they have water on one side that is cooler than the dew point of
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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            I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal interior surfaces of the
            skin will sweat when they have water on one side that is cooler than the dew
            point of the humid air on the other. This is not a serious problem in the
            engine room of a merchant ship, but could be troublesome on a small boat
            where the living spaces extend below the water line. Another reason to
            consider insulating the skin of the hull is that it greatly reduces the
            heating/cooling load.

            V/R
            Chris

            -----Original Message-----
            From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
            ANDREW AIREY
            Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 4:37 PM
            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [bolger] Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?


            I noted the concern about insulation in the article
            but wonder if it was misplaced.
          • Kristine Bennett
            Ok 1/4 inch steel plate is 10.20 Lbs per Sq Ft 3/16 inch steel plate is 7.65 Lbs per Sq Ft 7 Ga steel sheet is 7.5 Lbs per Sq Ft 8 Ga .164 steel sheet
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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              Ok 1/4 inch steel plate is 10.20 Lbs per Sq Ft
              3/16 inch steel plate is 7.65 Lbs per Sq Ft
              7 Ga steel sheet is 7.5 Lbs per Sq Ft
              8 Ga .164 steel sheet is 6.875 Lbs per Sq Ft

              I have seen 65 x 25 x 5 foot draft powerbarges built
              out of 3/16 steel plate the only place they were
              useing heaver was in the bow where you were likely to
              bump the beach and in the prop tunnles and they were
              1/4.

              I can see the 1/4 inch on the hull bottom but not for
              the hull sides. With the price of a good wire feeder
              under 2,ooo dollars US. along with some of the new
              welding wire you could have a nice hull in short
              order.

              If you make paper patterns of your hull sheeting the
              steel supplyer will cut the sheeting at a fair cost.
              And then is they are setup with a CNC cutting system
              the computer can nest everything so that is little
              wast.

              Krissie

              >
              > Assuming 1/4" hull and 1/8" topsides the shell dead
              > weight is 2.7 Ton.
              > After you add bulkheads and interior fittout,
              > probably 3.7 Ton.
              >




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            • Kristine Bennett
              There is also one other MAJOR thing insulating the hull does as well...it helps to stop the drumming of the hull and that can make for a sleepless night. Sound
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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                There is also one other MAJOR thing insulating the
                hull does as well...it helps to stop the drumming of
                the hull and that can make for a sleepless night.

                Sound does travle through steel very well below
                waterline.

                Kristine

                > I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal
                > interior surfaces of the
                > skin will sweat when they have water on one side
                > that is cooler than the dew
                > point of the humid air on the other. This is not a
                > serious problem in the
                > engine room of a merchant ship, but could be
                > troublesome on a small boat
                > where the living spaces extend below the water line.
                > Another reason to
                > consider insulating the skin of the hull is that it
                > greatly reduces the
                > heating/cooling load.
                >
                > V/R
                > Chris




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              • Kristine Bennett
                Hey Don in all the years I ve been welding I have yet to see a rod or wire for welding wood to steel.... Let s face it when you add wood decks and cabins to a
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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                  Hey Don in all the years I've been welding I have yet
                  to see a rod or wire for welding wood to steel....
                  Let's face it when you add wood decks and cabins to a
                  steel boat you have the best of both world....Rot and
                  Rust.

                  Dave Gerr does a good job of telling you how to work
                  out your scantling for a steel boat in The Nature of
                  Boats. I have also see a couple of other books that
                  just talk about steel boat building.

                  Blessings Krissie
                  >
                  > I would buy AS 29 plans and Lions Paw plans. The AS
                  > 29 plans would
                  > provide the panel expansions and other dimensional
                  > details. LP will
                  > provide the scantlings and tell you about how to do
                  > it in steel. I
                  > would guess a tank builder could prefab the bottom
                  > including the
                  > rocker, and the sides would bend around temp' frames
                  > and tabs welded
                  > to the bottom. I would be inclined to do decks and
                  > much of the
                  > interior in wood, but could also be talked out of it
                  > for more steel.
                  >
                  > Don Schultz
                  >
                  >




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                • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                  I think you covered the steel pritty well as far as welding in thinner steel proper sized and type of rod gives a stronger weld and less disrortion. MIG can
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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                    I think you covered the steel pritty well as far as welding in
                    thinner steel proper sized and type of rod gives a stronger weld and
                    less disrortion. MIG can have poor penatration and Inershield gets
                    slag when starting and stopping that can cause pinholes. CNC is great
                    but you need the specs on disc with a format that the CNC can use. It
                    can be big bucks if they have to set up the cutting specs. They are
                    more versatal now and shops can give help on what they need. Atkins
                    has a 28' sternwheeler that is 8 and 10 gage steel

                    Jon

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Ok 1/4 inch steel plate is 10.20 Lbs per Sq Ft
                    > 3/16 inch steel plate is 7.65 Lbs per Sq Ft
                    > 7 Ga steel sheet is 7.5 Lbs per Sq Ft
                    > 8 Ga .164 steel sheet is 6.875 Lbs per Sq Ft
                    >
                    > I have seen 65 x 25 x 5 foot draft powerbarges built
                    > out of 3/16 steel plate the only place they were
                    > useing heaver was in the bow where you were likely to
                    > bump the beach and in the prop tunnles and they were
                    > 1/4.
                    >
                    > I can see the 1/4 inch on the hull bottom but not for
                    > the hull sides. With the price of a good wire feeder
                    > under 2,ooo dollars US. along with some of the new
                    > welding wire you could have a nice hull in short
                    > order.
                    >
                    > If you make paper patterns of your hull sheeting the
                    > steel supplyer will cut the sheeting at a fair cost.
                    > And then is they are setup with a CNC cutting system
                    > the computer can nest everything so that is little
                    > wast.
                    >
                    > Krissie
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Assuming 1/4" hull and 1/8" topsides the shell dead
                    > > weight is 2.7 Ton.
                    > > After you add bulkheads and interior fittout,
                    > > probably 3.7 Ton.
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                    By sand blasting,painting and then having the hull spray foamed there is no air circulation agenst the steel and no condensation eliminating the things that
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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                      By sand blasting,painting and then having the hull spray foamed
                      there is no air circulation agenst the steel and no condensation
                      eliminating the things that cause rust to form. Homebuilder sheet
                      foam will not seel the air flow out well enough. For a lot of good
                      info on steel boat building and scantling use check out:
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/

                      Jon


                      > > I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal
                      > > interior surfaces of the
                      > > skin will sweat when they have water on one side
                      > > that is cooler than the dew
                      > > point of the humid air on the other. This is not a
                      > > serious problem in the
                      > > engine room of a merchant ship, but could be
                      > > troublesome on a small boat
                      > > where the living spaces extend below the water line.
                      > > Another reason to
                      > > consider insulating the skin of the hull is that it
                      > > greatly reduces the
                      > > heating/cooling load.
                      > >
                      > > V/R
                      > > Chris
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • donschultz8275
                      ... I wouldn t assume that it is only for bigger boats. PCB did that single hand world cruiser, Colonel something that is steel. Not much bigger than a
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 2, 2007
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                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > So I take it the sharpie must be larger than a AS29 to really be
                        > practical in steel. Not necessarily AS39 big but maybe a AS34 or so.


                        I wouldn't assume that it is only for bigger boats. PCB did that
                        single hand world cruiser, Colonel something that is steel. Not much
                        bigger than a Micro.
                      • Christopher C. Wetherill
                        The first boat My dad bought was a TerraMarine. It was a 30 foot flat-bottom houseboat that could convert to a trailer. It consisted of a steel barge with an
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 2, 2007
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                          The first boat My dad bought was a TerraMarine. It was a 30 foot
                          flat-bottom houseboat that could convert to a trailer. It consisted of a
                          steel barge with an aluminum house. It drew about 6 inches. I would be
                          guessing at the thickness of the plate, but I do know a corrosion allowance
                          is necessary.

                          The previous owner left it tied to a dock and used it for a guest house.
                          Unfortunately, he left the shoreside power hooked up with the wrong polarity
                          for several years and electrolytically corroded the hull. Dad had to glass
                          it inside and out to stop the leaks

                          Another point of reference is Huckleberry Finn, a 50 foot Atkins houseboat
                          done for Motorboating sometime before 1953. This boat has 11/64 bottom
                          plate and 9/64 topside plate on 2x2x1/8 angle framing at 15 inch intervals
                          with 3 longitudinal 4x7.55 I stringers, 1/4x12 keel plates on top and bottom
                          of the framing, 3/16 bow and stern and 4 watertight bulkheads of 1/8 plate
                          with 1.25x1.25x1/8 angle stiffeners on about 18 inch spacing.
                          Unfortunately, displacement is not given. Gross dimensions are 50' LOA, 44'
                          LWL, 18' B, 1'-4" D.

                          The point is that, with competent design, a boat can be built of steel in
                          any size. Since framing and stiffeners are easy to attach, weight is not as
                          difficult a problem as one might think. Cost may be a different problem.

                          V/R
                          Chris

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                          donschultz8275
                          Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 3:15 AM
                          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [bolger] Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?


                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > So I take it the sharpie must be larger than a AS29 to really be
                          > practical in steel. Not necessarily AS39 big but maybe a AS34 or so.


                          I wouldn't assume that it is only for bigger boats. PCB did that
                          single hand world cruiser, Colonel something that is steel. Not much
                          bigger than a Micro.
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