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Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?

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  • goadarama
    So I take it the sharpie must be larger than a AS29 to really be practical in steel. Not necessarily AS39 big but maybe a AS34 or so. Obviously it works at 45
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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      So I take it the sharpie must be larger than a AS29 to really be
      practical in steel. Not necessarily AS39 big but maybe a AS34 or so.
      Obviously it works at 45 feet. In the article re the modifications
      to the AS39 PB mentions there is tremendous latitude in building to
      stouter scantlings at that size. I'll figure it out. Thanks for the
      great info and speculations.

      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "donschultz8275" <donschultz@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Given PBolgers 45' Weston Martyr, with 1/2" bottom plate, and
      a 6-
      > 9
      > > > beam, what do ya'll think the AS 29 and AS39 bottoms would
      have to
      > > be?
      >
      > I would buy AS 29 plans and Lions Paw plans. The AS 29 plans
      would
      > provide the panel expansions and other dimensional details. LP
      will
      > provide the scantlings and tell you about how to do it in steel.
      I
      > would guess a tank builder could prefab the bottom including the
      > rocker, and the sides would bend around temp' frames and tabs
      welded
      > to the bottom. I would be inclined to do decks and much of the
      > interior in wood, but could also be talked out of it for more
      steel.
      >
      > Don Schultz
      >
    • Bruce Hallman
      ... My hunch is that it would be more efficient to maker her wider and deeper, not longer, to achieve the increase in buoyancy that you seek. (Though wider
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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        On 2/1/07, goadarama <goadarama@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > So I take it the sharpie must be larger than a AS29 to really be
        > practical in steel. Not necessarily AS39 big but maybe a AS34 or so.

        My hunch is that it would be more efficient to maker her wider and
        deeper, not longer, to achieve the increase in buoyancy that you seek.
        (Though wider means loss of trailerablity, move interior volume, and
        she would no longer be an AS29.)

        You might consider a Superbrick. <grin>.

        FWIW, pasted below are the hydrostatics of a steel AS29

        Assuming 1/4" hull and 1/8" topsides the shell dead weight is 2.7 Ton.
        After you add bulkheads and interior fittout, probably 3.7 Ton.

        But the design waterline, as I see it, allows for only 3.6 Ton.

        Project : Advanced Sharpie AS29
        Designer : Phil Bolger
        Created by : BruceHallman
        Filename : C:\Documents and
        Settings\BruceH.TUTOR536\Desktop\FS\FreeShip\AS29.fbm

        Design length : 29.500 [ft]
        Length over all : 29.438 [ft]
        Design beam : 8.000 [ft]
        Beam over all : 8.556 [ft]
        Design draft : 1.250 [ft]
        Midship location : 14.750 [ft]
        Water density : 63.989 [lbs/ft3]
        Appendage coefficient : 1.0000
        Volume properties:
        Displaced volume : 125.27 [ft3]
        Displacement : 3.579 [tons]
        Total length of submerged body : 21.981 [ft]
        Total beam of submerged body : 8.556 [ft]
        Block coefficient : 0.5329
        Prismatic coefficient : 0.5873
        Vert. prismatic coefficient : 0.6262
        Wetted surface area : 194.73 [ft2]
        Longitudinal center of buoyancy : 14.074 [ft]
        Longitudinal center of buoyancy : -3.076 [%]
        Vertical center of buoyancy : 0.784 [ft]
        Midship properties:
        Midship section area : 9.704 [ft2]
        Midship coefficient : 0.9074
        Waterplane properties:
        Length on waterline : 21.981 [ft]
        Beam on waterline : 8.530 [ft]
        Waterplane area : 160.03 [ft2]
        Waterplane coefficient : 0.8509
        Waterplane center of floatation : 14.016 [ft]
        Entrance angle : -89.299 [degr.]
        Transverse moment of inertia : 768.30 [ft4]
        Longitudinal moment of inertia : 5561.4 [ft4]
        Initial stability:
        Transverse metacentric height : 6.917 [ft]
        Longitudinal metacentric height : 45.179 [ft]
        Lateral plane:
        Lateral area : 17.432 [ft2]
        Longitudinal center of effort : 14.354 [ft]
        Vertical center of effort : 0.762 [ft]




        The following layer properties are calculated for both sides of the ship:
        | Layer | Area | Thickness | Weight | COG X |
        COG Y | COG Z |
        | | [ft2] | | [tons] | [ft] |
        [ft] | [ft] |
        |-------------------------|--------|-----------|----------|---------|---------|---------|
        | hull | 484.56 | 0.250 | 2.208 | 14.339 |
        0.000 | 2.083 |
        | deck | 226.57 | 0.125 | 0.516 | 14.157 |
        0.000 | 5.304 |
        |-------------------------|--------|-----------|----------|---------|---------|---------|
        Total 711.13 2.725 14.304
        0.000 2.693


        Sectional areas:

        | Location | Area |
        | [ft] | [ft2] |
        |-----------+----------|
        | 2.000 | 0.000 |
        | 4.000 | 0.408 |
        | 6.000 | 3.112 |
        | 8.000 | 5.564 |
        | 10.000 | 8.066 |
        | 12.000 | 9.189 |
        | 14.000 | 10.182 |
        | 16.000 | 8.899 |
        | 18.000 | 7.625 |
        | 20.000 | 5.311 |
        | 22.000 | 3.251 |
        | 24.000 | 1.199 |
        | 26.000 | 0.000 |
        |-----------+----------|
      • ANDREW AIREY
        Hi All I hope the group doesn t impose the same penalties for apostasy that the muslims would like to,but,although I like the idea of a steel Bolger box,there
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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          Hi All

          I hope the group doesn't impose the same penalties for
          apostasy that the muslims would like to,but,although I
          like the idea of a steel Bolger box,there are some
          alternatives.
          1 Waterwitch
          This is the Maurice Griffith's 'Eventide' big sister -
          30' or 35' long.Plans are available for a steel
          version and second hand examples come up
          occasionally.If you don't like leeboards the mark1 is
          the one to look for.The mark2 only draws 2ft but that
          has leeboards.There is some antagonism between the
          Eventide owners association and the Eventide owners
          group.EOG is much more active but the EOA has the
          plans for the steel versions - cost$200-250
          2.Wylo 2
          32ft or 35ft gaff orjunk rig.draft about 3ft3in.Wooden
          upperworks on the 32ft which might be the way to keep
          the weight down on a steel bolger box.Several
          circumnavigations to it's credit
          cheers
          Andy Airey

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        • ANDREW AIREY
          I noted the concern about insulation in the article but wonder if it was misplaced.Always remember that WM was designed basically as a narrow canal boat with
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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            I noted the concern about insulation in the article
            but wonder if it was misplaced.Always remember that WM
            was designed basically as a narrow canal boat with
            enough sailing capability to get it across the North
            Sea or English Channel to explore the European rivers
            and canals - its why I was attracted to it until I
            discovered Dutch sailing barges.There are literally
            thousands of steel narrowboats on the English canal
            system - more now than when the canals were a truly
            commercial highway a hundred years or more ago - and a
            great many are lived on all year round.Two of my
            friends lived on similar boats for years.Bit of
            fibreglass,wood panelling and a good pot stove.Even
            now the Chinese have pushed steel prices up I reckon
            that you could get the hull built commercially in the
            UK for around the £10k mark.There must be 5
            boatbuilders within a 15 mile radius of Worksop and
            thats just off the top of my head without
            researching.I'd be more worried about sailing ability,
            getting round the Recreational Craft Directive,and
            getting some insurance on it,which is a point that
            I've not seen discussed on this forum - how are PCB's
            designs regarded by the insurance industry.Too many
            people seem to be wanting you to have 3rd party
            insurance these days.I would think that WM with a
            breeze behind it would go straight through a plastic
            noddy boat without even slowing down much
            cheers
            Andy Airey
            Ps Must do some research on sailing 'Cuckoos'- our
            local canal craft(72ft long)and same beam as WM,which
            occasionally carried sils on the Trent

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          • Christopher C. Wetherill
            I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal interior surfaces of the skin will sweat when they have water on one side that is cooler than the dew point of
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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              I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal interior surfaces of the
              skin will sweat when they have water on one side that is cooler than the dew
              point of the humid air on the other. This is not a serious problem in the
              engine room of a merchant ship, but could be troublesome on a small boat
              where the living spaces extend below the water line. Another reason to
              consider insulating the skin of the hull is that it greatly reduces the
              heating/cooling load.

              V/R
              Chris

              -----Original Message-----
              From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
              ANDREW AIREY
              Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 4:37 PM
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [bolger] Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?


              I noted the concern about insulation in the article
              but wonder if it was misplaced.
            • Kristine Bennett
              Ok 1/4 inch steel plate is 10.20 Lbs per Sq Ft 3/16 inch steel plate is 7.65 Lbs per Sq Ft 7 Ga steel sheet is 7.5 Lbs per Sq Ft 8 Ga .164 steel sheet
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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                Ok 1/4 inch steel plate is 10.20 Lbs per Sq Ft
                3/16 inch steel plate is 7.65 Lbs per Sq Ft
                7 Ga steel sheet is 7.5 Lbs per Sq Ft
                8 Ga .164 steel sheet is 6.875 Lbs per Sq Ft

                I have seen 65 x 25 x 5 foot draft powerbarges built
                out of 3/16 steel plate the only place they were
                useing heaver was in the bow where you were likely to
                bump the beach and in the prop tunnles and they were
                1/4.

                I can see the 1/4 inch on the hull bottom but not for
                the hull sides. With the price of a good wire feeder
                under 2,ooo dollars US. along with some of the new
                welding wire you could have a nice hull in short
                order.

                If you make paper patterns of your hull sheeting the
                steel supplyer will cut the sheeting at a fair cost.
                And then is they are setup with a CNC cutting system
                the computer can nest everything so that is little
                wast.

                Krissie

                >
                > Assuming 1/4" hull and 1/8" topsides the shell dead
                > weight is 2.7 Ton.
                > After you add bulkheads and interior fittout,
                > probably 3.7 Ton.
                >




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              • Kristine Bennett
                There is also one other MAJOR thing insulating the hull does as well...it helps to stop the drumming of the hull and that can make for a sleepless night. Sound
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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                  There is also one other MAJOR thing insulating the
                  hull does as well...it helps to stop the drumming of
                  the hull and that can make for a sleepless night.

                  Sound does travle through steel very well below
                  waterline.

                  Kristine

                  > I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal
                  > interior surfaces of the
                  > skin will sweat when they have water on one side
                  > that is cooler than the dew
                  > point of the humid air on the other. This is not a
                  > serious problem in the
                  > engine room of a merchant ship, but could be
                  > troublesome on a small boat
                  > where the living spaces extend below the water line.
                  > Another reason to
                  > consider insulating the skin of the hull is that it
                  > greatly reduces the
                  > heating/cooling load.
                  >
                  > V/R
                  > Chris




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                • Kristine Bennett
                  Hey Don in all the years I ve been welding I have yet to see a rod or wire for welding wood to steel.... Let s face it when you add wood decks and cabins to a
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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                    Hey Don in all the years I've been welding I have yet
                    to see a rod or wire for welding wood to steel....
                    Let's face it when you add wood decks and cabins to a
                    steel boat you have the best of both world....Rot and
                    Rust.

                    Dave Gerr does a good job of telling you how to work
                    out your scantling for a steel boat in The Nature of
                    Boats. I have also see a couple of other books that
                    just talk about steel boat building.

                    Blessings Krissie
                    >
                    > I would buy AS 29 plans and Lions Paw plans. The AS
                    > 29 plans would
                    > provide the panel expansions and other dimensional
                    > details. LP will
                    > provide the scantlings and tell you about how to do
                    > it in steel. I
                    > would guess a tank builder could prefab the bottom
                    > including the
                    > rocker, and the sides would bend around temp' frames
                    > and tabs welded
                    > to the bottom. I would be inclined to do decks and
                    > much of the
                    > interior in wood, but could also be talked out of it
                    > for more steel.
                    >
                    > Don Schultz
                    >
                    >




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                  • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                    I think you covered the steel pritty well as far as welding in thinner steel proper sized and type of rod gives a stronger weld and less disrortion. MIG can
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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                      I think you covered the steel pritty well as far as welding in
                      thinner steel proper sized and type of rod gives a stronger weld and
                      less disrortion. MIG can have poor penatration and Inershield gets
                      slag when starting and stopping that can cause pinholes. CNC is great
                      but you need the specs on disc with a format that the CNC can use. It
                      can be big bucks if they have to set up the cutting specs. They are
                      more versatal now and shops can give help on what they need. Atkins
                      has a 28' sternwheeler that is 8 and 10 gage steel

                      Jon

                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Kristine Bennett <femmpaws@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Ok 1/4 inch steel plate is 10.20 Lbs per Sq Ft
                      > 3/16 inch steel plate is 7.65 Lbs per Sq Ft
                      > 7 Ga steel sheet is 7.5 Lbs per Sq Ft
                      > 8 Ga .164 steel sheet is 6.875 Lbs per Sq Ft
                      >
                      > I have seen 65 x 25 x 5 foot draft powerbarges built
                      > out of 3/16 steel plate the only place they were
                      > useing heaver was in the bow where you were likely to
                      > bump the beach and in the prop tunnles and they were
                      > 1/4.
                      >
                      > I can see the 1/4 inch on the hull bottom but not for
                      > the hull sides. With the price of a good wire feeder
                      > under 2,ooo dollars US. along with some of the new
                      > welding wire you could have a nice hull in short
                      > order.
                      >
                      > If you make paper patterns of your hull sheeting the
                      > steel supplyer will cut the sheeting at a fair cost.
                      > And then is they are setup with a CNC cutting system
                      > the computer can nest everything so that is little
                      > wast.
                      >
                      > Krissie
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Assuming 1/4" hull and 1/8" topsides the shell dead
                      > > weight is 2.7 Ton.
                      > > After you add bulkheads and interior fittout,
                      > > probably 3.7 Ton.
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Jon & Wanda(Tink)
                      By sand blasting,painting and then having the hull spray foamed there is no air circulation agenst the steel and no condensation eliminating the things that
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 1, 2007
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                        By sand blasting,painting and then having the hull spray foamed
                        there is no air circulation agenst the steel and no condensation
                        eliminating the things that cause rust to form. Homebuilder sheet
                        foam will not seel the air flow out well enough. For a lot of good
                        info on steel boat building and scantling use check out:
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/origamiboats/

                        Jon


                        > > I can speak from experience. Un-insulated metal
                        > > interior surfaces of the
                        > > skin will sweat when they have water on one side
                        > > that is cooler than the dew
                        > > point of the humid air on the other. This is not a
                        > > serious problem in the
                        > > engine room of a merchant ship, but could be
                        > > troublesome on a small boat
                        > > where the living spaces extend below the water line.
                        > > Another reason to
                        > > consider insulating the skin of the hull is that it
                        > > greatly reduces the
                        > > heating/cooling load.
                        > >
                        > > V/R
                        > > Chris
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • donschultz8275
                        ... I wouldn t assume that it is only for bigger boats. PCB did that single hand world cruiser, Colonel something that is steel. Not much bigger than a
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 2, 2007
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                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > So I take it the sharpie must be larger than a AS29 to really be
                          > practical in steel. Not necessarily AS39 big but maybe a AS34 or so.


                          I wouldn't assume that it is only for bigger boats. PCB did that
                          single hand world cruiser, Colonel something that is steel. Not much
                          bigger than a Micro.
                        • Christopher C. Wetherill
                          The first boat My dad bought was a TerraMarine. It was a 30 foot flat-bottom houseboat that could convert to a trailer. It consisted of a steel barge with an
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 2, 2007
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                            The first boat My dad bought was a TerraMarine. It was a 30 foot
                            flat-bottom houseboat that could convert to a trailer. It consisted of a
                            steel barge with an aluminum house. It drew about 6 inches. I would be
                            guessing at the thickness of the plate, but I do know a corrosion allowance
                            is necessary.

                            The previous owner left it tied to a dock and used it for a guest house.
                            Unfortunately, he left the shoreside power hooked up with the wrong polarity
                            for several years and electrolytically corroded the hull. Dad had to glass
                            it inside and out to stop the leaks

                            Another point of reference is Huckleberry Finn, a 50 foot Atkins houseboat
                            done for Motorboating sometime before 1953. This boat has 11/64 bottom
                            plate and 9/64 topside plate on 2x2x1/8 angle framing at 15 inch intervals
                            with 3 longitudinal 4x7.55 I stringers, 1/4x12 keel plates on top and bottom
                            of the framing, 3/16 bow and stern and 4 watertight bulkheads of 1/8 plate
                            with 1.25x1.25x1/8 angle stiffeners on about 18 inch spacing.
                            Unfortunately, displacement is not given. Gross dimensions are 50' LOA, 44'
                            LWL, 18' B, 1'-4" D.

                            The point is that, with competent design, a boat can be built of steel in
                            any size. Since framing and stiffeners are easy to attach, weight is not as
                            difficult a problem as one might think. Cost may be a different problem.

                            V/R
                            Chris

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: bolger@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bolger@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                            donschultz8275
                            Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 3:15 AM
                            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [bolger] Re: Steel ASharpie: speculation on plate thicknesses?


                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "goadarama" <goadarama@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > So I take it the sharpie must be larger than a AS29 to really be
                            > practical in steel. Not necessarily AS39 big but maybe a AS34 or so.


                            I wouldn't assume that it is only for bigger boats. PCB did that
                            single hand world cruiser, Colonel something that is steel. Not much
                            bigger than a Micro.
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