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Sail Rig

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  • lancasterdennis
    Hi Folks, Can anybody tell me what type of sail configuration or rig the Micro and Old Shoe have? Are they rigged Cat Yawl or Sprit Boom sails or Sprit sail
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 18, 2006
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      Hi Folks,

      Can anybody tell me what type of sail configuration or rig the Micro
      and Old Shoe have? Are they rigged "Cat Yawl" or Sprit Boom sails
      or Sprit sail Yawl or what?

      I'm new to this sail design and handling charactoristics and I am
      sure that when the time comes to splash my Old Shoe sometime next
      summer, I am going to need some expert advice on how to sail her.

      I am also looking for a good sail loft to build my new sails and as
      I do that search, I am finding out things like: I need to know the
      degree of mast bend before the sail can be built, but some
      sailmakers don't even ask that question and seems like a reasonable
      one to me.

      Any help from those that have done that and been there would be much
      appreciated.

      Regards,

      Dennis
      Bellingham, WA
    • Derek Waters
      Hi Dennis FWIW, I think you re wise to be leery of sailmakers who won t discuss things like mast bend. That said, they may be working to a set of assumptions
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 18, 2006
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        Hi Dennis

        FWIW, I think you're wise to be leery of sailmakers who won't discuss things
        like mast bend. That said, they may be working to a set of assumptions based
        on prior experience with similar setups.

        As normally configured those boats are rigged as cat yawls, both main and
        mizzen being sprit boomed 'leg of mutton' sails. Emphatically not
        spritsails - that's a different [four sided] sail.

        'Cat' because the main is stepped well forward and to differentiate the rig
        from a sloop which would have a jib or staysail set forward of the main
        [let's not get into cat-sloops :) ]

        'Yawl' because the cat's boom is docked for easier handling and some of the
        area lost replaced by a small sail used for trim rather than for drive. By
        Bolger's definition, a yawl rather than a ketch primarily because of this
        trim versus drive distinction.

        You're in the PNW, eh? Perhaps someone around Port Townsend would be
        familiar with the requirements of this type of sail. The cut and
        construction are significantly different from other triangular sails.

        I've been happy with sails I built from kits cut by the folk at SailRite,
        and Chuck at Duckworks has an arrangement with a sailmaker. Chuck is 'good
        people'.

        If you haven't already done so, I'd recommend checking Emiliano Marino's
        'Sailmaker's Apprentice' out of your local library and having a good read to
        arm yourself for the fray.

        cheers
        Derek
      • lancasterdennis
        ... Thank you Derek, That certainly clears the muddy waters with me. Yes, I have contacted NorthWest Sails in Port Townsend and they have been very kind and
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 19, 2006
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          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Waters" <dgw@...> wrote:
          >
          Thank you Derek,

          That certainly clears the muddy waters with me. Yes, I have
          contacted NorthWest Sails in Port Townsend and they have been very
          kind and helpful. A bit steep on their pricing, but I believe they
          carry a good reputation. We will be visitng their loft in November.
          I have also contacted Sailrite and have had an excellent response and
          very fair quote for building the sails for me. I have had one
          unpleasent experience from a loft back East of which I won't mention
          a name, as it would serve no purpose, just could have been a
          misunderstanding.

          One question has surfaced that I'm not clear on: one sailmaker states
          that the main should not be cut flat, another says it should. Who is
          right?

          Regards,

          Dennis


          > Hi Dennis
          >
          > FWIW, I think you're wise to be leery of sailmakers who won't
          discuss things
          > like mast bend. That said, they may be working to a set of
          assumptions based
          > on prior experience with similar setups.
          >
          > As normally configured those boats are rigged as cat yawls, both
          main and
          > mizzen being sprit boomed 'leg of mutton' sails. Emphatically not
          > spritsails - that's a different [four sided] sail.
          >
          > 'Cat' because the main is stepped well forward and to differentiate
          the rig
          > from a sloop which would have a jib or staysail set forward of the
          main
          > [let's not get into cat-sloops :) ]
          >
          > 'Yawl' because the cat's boom is docked for easier handling and
          some of the
          > area lost replaced by a small sail used for trim rather than for
          drive. By
          > Bolger's definition, a yawl rather than a ketch primarily because
          of this
          > trim versus drive distinction.
          >
          > You're in the PNW, eh? Perhaps someone around Port Townsend would be
          > familiar with the requirements of this type of sail. The cut and
          > construction are significantly different from other triangular
          sails.
          >
          > I've been happy with sails I built from kits cut by the folk at
          SailRite,
          > and Chuck at Duckworks has an arrangement with a sailmaker. Chuck
          is 'good
          > people'.
          >
          > If you haven't already done so, I'd recommend checking Emiliano
          Marino's
          > 'Sailmaker's Apprentice' out of your local library and having a
          good read to
          > arm yourself for the fray.
          >
          > cheers
          > Derek
          >
        • Derek Waters
          Hi Dennis The main should absolutely NOT be cut flat. These boats will likely benefit from a main sail cut with a bit _more_ draft than would be usual on a
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 19, 2006
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            Hi Dennis

            The main should absolutely NOT be cut flat. These boats will likely benefit
            from a main sail cut with a bit _more_ draft than would be usual on a sloop
            main. Unless there's a misunderstanding here, I'd back away from the maker
            who offered a flat main. The foot of both sails should be cut uncommonly
            straight, since the foot acts as a vang, but that's a different matter, eh?

            On the other hand, there is a school of thought which says that since the
            mizzen offers little drive, it can usefully be cut flat. It's not a school I
            personally subscribe to :) The snotter will flatten out the sail at need.

            cheers
            Derek
          • Joe Tribulato
            The mizzen should be cut with no more fullness than can be tensioned out. The mizzen on my Oldshoe was too full and could not be flattened by tension on the
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 19, 2006
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              The mizzen should be cut with no more fullness than can be tensioned
              out. The mizzen on my Oldshoe was too full and could not be flattened
              by tension on the sprit boom. Go with a sailmaker who really knows
              these things. I made a poor choice.

              Joe T

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Waters" <dgw@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Dennis
              >
              > The main should absolutely NOT be cut flat. These boats will likely
              benefit
              > from a main sail cut with a bit _more_ draft than would be usual on
              a sloop
              > main. Unless there's a misunderstanding here, I'd back away from the
              maker
              > who offered a flat main. The foot of both sails should be cut uncommonly
              > straight, since the foot acts as a vang, but that's a different
              matter, eh?
              >
              > On the other hand, there is a school of thought which says that
              since the
              > mizzen offers little drive, it can usefully be cut flat. It's not a
              school I
              > personally subscribe to :) The snotter will flatten out the sail at
              need.
              >
              > cheers
              > Derek
              >
            • John Kohnen
              The best place to get traditional sails (and that includes sprit boomed leg o muttons) made is Carol Hasse s Port Townsend Sails -- but you pay a lot for
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 19, 2006
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                The best place to get "traditional" sails (and that includes sprit boomed
                leg o' muttons) made is Carol Hasse's Port Townsend Sails -- but you pay a
                lot for the best:

                http://www.porttownsendsails.com/

                My local sailmaker is experienced with traditional sails and loves to get
                a break from making and repairing sails for the racers on our local
                mudhole. She's only about 400 miles south of you:

                Lynn Fabricant
                541-338-9877
                rlf@...

                Don't consider any sailmaker who isn't familiar with traditional sails!
                Even if they have a good reputation for modern style sails that doesn't
                mean they know a thing about sprit boomed leg o' muttons. One of our local
                boat nuts ordered a spritsail from North, or was it Hood? Anyway, the sail
                was a complete mess and he had to have Lynn redo it.

                On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 23:01:48 -0700, Derek wrote:

                > ...
                > You're in the PNW, eh? Perhaps someone around Port Townsend would be
                > familiar with the requirements of this type of sail. The cut and
                > construction are significantly different from other triangular sails.
                > ...

                --
                John <jkohnen@...>
                One of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen
                these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding
                fathers used in the great struggle for independence. <Charles A. Beard>
              • lancasterdennis
                ... Hi Joe, Thanks for that input, I will pass it on to whoever I decide to go with. Who was your sail maker, if I can ask? Sailrite has sure been great to
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 20, 2006
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                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Tribulato" <scsbmsjoe@...> wrote:
                  >



                  Hi Joe,

                  Thanks for that input, I will pass it on to whoever I decide to go
                  with. Who was your sail maker, if I can ask? Sailrite has sure been
                  great to work with and so has Duckworks, Chuck has been more than
                  helpful and their prices beat them all! I was reminded that I'm not
                  building a racing machine. I just need good sails that will last.

                  Regards,

                  Dennis
                  Bellingham, WA
                  > The mizzen should be cut with no more fullness than can be tensioned
                  > out. The mizzen on my Oldshoe was too full and could not be
                  flattened
                  > by tension on the sprit boom. Go with a sailmaker who really knows
                  > these things. I made a poor choice.
                  >
                  > Joe T
                  >
                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Waters" <dgw@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Dennis
                  > >
                  > > The main should absolutely NOT be cut flat. These boats will
                  likely
                  > benefit
                  > > from a main sail cut with a bit _more_ draft than would be usual
                  on
                  > a sloop
                  > > main. Unless there's a misunderstanding here, I'd back away from
                  the
                  > maker
                  > > who offered a flat main. The foot of both sails should be cut
                  uncommonly
                  > > straight, since the foot acts as a vang, but that's a different
                  > matter, eh?
                  > >
                  > > On the other hand, there is a school of thought which says that
                  > since the
                  > > mizzen offers little drive, it can usefully be cut flat. It's not
                  a
                  > school I
                  > > personally subscribe to :) The snotter will flatten out the sail
                  at
                  > need.
                  > >
                  > > cheers
                  > > Derek
                  > >
                  >
                • Steven DAntonio
                  Hi Dennis, Have you considered a program called saitcut (it s free). You can design your own said there, make a prototype out of polytarp for a few dollars
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 20, 2006
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                    Hi Dennis,

                    Have you considered a program called "saitcut" (it's free). You can
                    design your own said there, make a prototype out of polytarp for a few
                    dollars and then refine the design.

                    Jim Michalak has several articles about designing,cutting and sewing
                    your own sail from polytarp. From talking to others who have gone
                    this rout they seem to last about 3 to 5 years if handled properly and
                    their mot effected by UV like dacron. Their just not as decorative as
                    the professionally made ones.

                    http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/michalak/2005.htm

                    I've also been told that tyvek works well for this too, but, like
                    dacron, it is effected by UV.

                    Polytarp is sewable on any decent machine with a zig-zag stitch (so
                    the wife tells me), using sailmakers thread from duckworks or some
                    other outlet.

                    Steven


                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "lancasterdennis" <dlancast@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Derek Waters" <dgw@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > Thank you Derek,
                    >
                    > That certainly clears the muddy waters with me. Yes, I have
                    > contacted NorthWest Sails in Port Townsend and they have been very
                    > kind and helpful. A bit steep on their pricing, but I believe they
                    > carry a good reputation. We will be visitng their loft in November.
                    > I have also contacted Sailrite and have had an excellent response and
                    > very fair quote for building the sails for me. I have had one
                    > unpleasent experience from a loft back East of which I won't mention
                    > a name, as it would serve no purpose, just could have been a
                    > misunderstanding.
                    >
                    > One question has surfaced that I'm not clear on: one sailmaker states
                    > that the main should not be cut flat, another says it should. Who is
                    > right?
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    >
                    > Dennis
                  • Harry James
                    You can get sailcut from Carlson s website http://www.carlsondesign.com/#Professional_Shareware HJ
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 20, 2006
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                      You can get sailcut from Carlson's website

                      http://www.carlsondesign.com/#Professional_Shareware

                      HJ

                      Steven DAntonio wrote:
                      > Hi Dennis,
                      >
                      > Have you considered a program called "saitcut" (it's free). You can
                      > design your own said there, make a prototype out of polytarp for a few
                      > dollars and then refine the design.
                      >
                      > Jim Michalak has several articles about designing,cutting and sewing
                      > your own sail from polytarp. From talking to others who have gone
                      > this rout they seem to last about 3 to 5 years if handled properly and
                      > their mot effected by UV like dacron. Their just not as decorative as
                      > the professionally made ones.
                      >
                      > http://marina.fortunecity.com/breakwater/274/michalak/2005.htm
                      >
                      > I've also been told that tyvek works well for this too, but, like
                      > dacron, it is effected by UV.
                      >
                      > Polytarp is sewable on any decent machine with a zig-zag stitch (so
                      > the wife tells me), using sailmakers thread from duckworks or some
                      > other outlet.
                      >
                      > Steven
                      >
                      >
                      >
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