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How would Mr Bolger update Cynthia J?

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  • graeme19121984
    The designer got around to Otter ll himself, but to my knowledge hasn t and is, I suppose, unlikely to get around to CynthiaJ ll. So, guided by study of
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 5, 2006
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      The designer got around to Otter ll himself, but to my knowledge
      hasn't and is, I suppose, unlikely to get around to CynthiaJ ll. So,
      guided by study of developments of other PCB&F designs over the
      years, how would Cynthia J be improved/modified? Modified, that is,
      to be a bit more suited to pursuits other than just pond picnic
      daysailing with a gaggle of fun, kids, and family aboard. To really
      be self rescueing at the least.



      RIG.
      PCB&F wrote, when considering the Beach Cat design, of the issues
      some have nowadays with the long footed gaff cat rig. I'd like to
      keep the basic long foot rig to try it for fast and weatherly, but
      there may be other worthwhile modifications. How about a Camper, or
      other tabernacle; or a Wandervogel vang for instance?

      Place a stop on the mast to bear its weight at the partner and not
      the floor, and so eliminate both the doubling of the bottom member
      of frame #1 and the through-hull bolt located there.

      Place halyards cleat on the mast and eliminate their compressive
      load transference that required the strengthening floor bolt in the
      first place.



      BOTTOM.
      Double or triple plywood layer. This should allow removal of most of
      the bottom shoes, and also the irksome inside bottom stiffening
      cleats that muck up a lovely flat cuddy floor for lying on.

      Sheath bottom in fibreglass before fixing bottom shoes etc.

      Will this be stiff enough?



      BOUYANCY/BALLAST.
      As the flooded boat is reported difficult to get to remain upright,
      and impossible to do so with the rig in place, these aspects need
      attention. The increased bottom thickness already mentioned will
      help put weight where needed, but is it enough? Transferring
      flotation situated down low, as per the underseat foam blocks, to a
      higher location also should help, but again is it enough?

      Also as in the changes from Otter to Otter ll, watertight
      compartmentalisation seems required. The cuddy should be very flood
      resistant, or watertight. Altering Frame #1 to a watertight bulkhead
      will have very little effect on cuddy space. There's still enough to
      lie down in. The space in front of the then Bulkhead #1 should
      perhaps then be made a free draining flooded well? And perhaps the
      large triangular foam block there in the bow could be done away
      with?

      Bulkhead #3 needs altering by filling in the swinging cuddy doors
      and replacing with cuddy access much higher up. Duckboard in the
      bulkhead with decktop sliding hatch; or just a deck hatch, perhaps
      hinged?

      Box-in the entire space aft of the cockpit seats from floor to rails
      and make a huge bouyancy/storage compartment with top hatch access.
      It may be more convenient to shorten the seats and box-in aft from
      Frame #4 ( how many people are to be carried anyway? You won't be
      able to stretch out on the cockpit floor any more, but a great
      galley box and cooler could be built into the forward side of that
      aft compartment.). Offset the rudder to allow a small outboard
      mounted on the transom. Recess the end of the compartment in way of
      the outboard.

      Fix foam blocks under aft compartment deck, and foam sheet under
      fore part of cuddy deck as insurance.

      Use two ballast sandbags; one beneath each seat, both shifted to
      windward side when under sail.

      LEEBOARDS.
      I'd be inclined to try assymetrics, even though it seems PCB doesn't
      think they're needed. They'd be even easier to shape, assuming the
      designed ones are not merely flat plates

      YULOH.
      Leave the outboard at home, take a yuloh and Cynthia J may just be a
      very competitive Everglades Challenge short course entrant. What do
      you think?

      What else could be done, or needs doing?

      Graeme

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/CynthiaJ/

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Cynthia%20J/

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Cynthia%
      20J./
    • John and Kathy Trussell
      Like many of PCB s boats, Cynthia J was designed to precisely fit a specific set of uses (which, I believe, you have described with great accuracy). As
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 6, 2006
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        Like many of PCB's boats, Cynthia J was designed to precisely fit a specific
        set of uses (which, I believe, you have described with great accuracy). As
        designed, I believe Cynthia J would, if capsized, float fairly high on her
        side, supported by the cabin and the bouyancy of the mast and gaff.
        Righting her would require a swimmer to grab the stringers on the bottom to
        pull her up or, more likely, a line to parbuckle the boat up. If capsize is
        a major concern, Cynthia J's reserve bouyancy would be improved by a)
        raising the companionway opening in the cabin bulkhead to the level of the
        seats and b) adding a bulkhead and decking in the back of the cockpit behind
        the seats (which would require raising the rudder head and running the
        tiller over the top of the deck). If you want to take a look at afurther
        development of the general idea, take a look at Michalak's Fatcat design.

        All boats are a balance between a series of compromises. I have found that
        it is easy to identify things on a boat that I think could be improved, but
        that it is usually not possible to improve the feature I don't like without
        degrading the features I do like. Most of the time when I try, I find that
        the designer was smarter than I am :>).

        John T
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "graeme19121984" <graeme19121984@...>
        To: <bolger@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 11:49 PM
        Subject: [bolger] How would Mr Bolger update Cynthia J?


        > The designer got around to Otter ll himself, but to my knowledge
        > hasn't and is, I suppose, unlikely to get around to CynthiaJ ll. So,
        > guided by study of developments of other PCB&F designs over the
        > years, how would Cynthia J be improved/modified? Modified, that is,
        > to be a bit more suited to pursuits other than just pond picnic
        > daysailing with a gaggle of fun, kids, and family aboard. To really
        > be self rescueing at the least.
        >
        >
        >
        > RIG.
        > PCB&F wrote, when considering the Beach Cat design, of the issues
        > some have nowadays with the long footed gaff cat rig. I'd like to
        > keep the basic long foot rig to try it for fast and weatherly, but
        > there may be other worthwhile modifications. How about a Camper, or
        > other tabernacle; or a Wandervogel vang for instance?
        >
        > Place a stop on the mast to bear its weight at the partner and not
        > the floor, and so eliminate both the doubling of the bottom member
        > of frame #1 and the through-hull bolt located there.
        >
        > Place halyards cleat on the mast and eliminate their compressive
        > load transference that required the strengthening floor bolt in the
        > first place.
        >
        >
        >
        > BOTTOM.
        > Double or triple plywood layer. This should allow removal of most of
        > the bottom shoes, and also the irksome inside bottom stiffening
        > cleats that muck up a lovely flat cuddy floor for lying on.
        >
        > Sheath bottom in fibreglass before fixing bottom shoes etc.
        >
        > Will this be stiff enough?
        >
        >
        >
        > BOUYANCY/BALLAST.
        > As the flooded boat is reported difficult to get to remain upright,
        > and impossible to do so with the rig in place, these aspects need
        > attention. The increased bottom thickness already mentioned will
        > help put weight where needed, but is it enough? Transferring
        > flotation situated down low, as per the underseat foam blocks, to a
        > higher location also should help, but again is it enough?
        >
        > Also as in the changes from Otter to Otter ll, watertight
        > compartmentalisation seems required. The cuddy should be very flood
        > resistant, or watertight. Altering Frame #1 to a watertight bulkhead
        > will have very little effect on cuddy space. There's still enough to
        > lie down in. The space in front of the then Bulkhead #1 should
        > perhaps then be made a free draining flooded well? And perhaps the
        > large triangular foam block there in the bow could be done away
        > with?
        >
        > Bulkhead #3 needs altering by filling in the swinging cuddy doors
        > and replacing with cuddy access much higher up. Duckboard in the
        > bulkhead with decktop sliding hatch; or just a deck hatch, perhaps
        > hinged?
        >
        > Box-in the entire space aft of the cockpit seats from floor to rails
        > and make a huge bouyancy/storage compartment with top hatch access.
        > It may be more convenient to shorten the seats and box-in aft from
        > Frame #4 ( how many people are to be carried anyway? You won't be
        > able to stretch out on the cockpit floor any more, but a great
        > galley box and cooler could be built into the forward side of that
        > aft compartment.). Offset the rudder to allow a small outboard
        > mounted on the transom. Recess the end of the compartment in way of
        > the outboard.
        >
        > Fix foam blocks under aft compartment deck, and foam sheet under
        > fore part of cuddy deck as insurance.
        >
        > Use two ballast sandbags; one beneath each seat, both shifted to
        > windward side when under sail.
        >
        > LEEBOARDS.
        > I'd be inclined to try assymetrics, even though it seems PCB doesn't
        > think they're needed. They'd be even easier to shape, assuming the
        > designed ones are not merely flat plates
        >
        > YULOH.
        > Leave the outboard at home, take a yuloh and Cynthia J may just be a
        > very competitive Everglades Challenge short course entrant. What do
        > you think?
        >
        > What else could be done, or needs doing?
        >
        > Graeme
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/CynthiaJ/
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Cynthia%20J/
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Cynthia%
        > 20J./
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Bolger rules!!!
        > - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
        > - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead
        > horses
        > - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
        > - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
        > - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax:
        > (978) 282-1349
        > - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
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        >
      • Gene T.
        Graeme, Doubling or trippling the bottom will only help righting on a boat that is not flooded. Once the boat is filled, all that plywood becomes flotation
        Message 3 of 15 , Oct 6, 2006
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          Graeme,
          Doubling or trippling the bottom will only help righting on
          a boat that is not flooded. Once the boat is filled, all that plywood
          becomes flotation and will have the opposite effect. I think you need
          some dense weight down there, lead, steel, at least epoxy filled with
          something heavy. Then extra flotation to make sure you don't go right
          to the bottom! 8^D

          Sincerely,

          "A house ashore is but a boat, so poorly
          built it will not float ---- "

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: graeme19121984 <graeme19121984@...>
          To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2006 11:49:25 PM
          Subject: [bolger] How would Mr Bolger update Cynthia J?

          The designer got around to Otter ll himself, but to my knowledge
          hasn't and is, I suppose, unlikely to get around to CynthiaJ ll. So,
          guided by study of developments of other PCB&F designs over the
          years, how would Cynthia J be improved/modified? Modified, that is,
          to be a bit more suited to pursuits other than just pond picnic
          daysailing with a gaggle of fun, kids, and family aboard. To really
          be self rescueing at the least.



          RIG.
          PCB&F wrote, when considering the Beach Cat design, of the issues
          some have nowadays with the long footed gaff cat rig. I'd like to
          keep the basic long foot rig to try it for fast and weatherly, but
          there may be other worthwhile modifications. How about a Camper, or
          other tabernacle; or a Wandervogel vang for instance?

          Place a stop on the mast to bear its weight at the partner and not
          the floor, and so eliminate both the doubling of the bottom member
          of frame #1 and the through-hull bolt located there.

          Place halyards cleat on the mast and eliminate their compressive
          load transference that required the strengthening floor bolt in the
          first place.



          BOTTOM.
          Double or triple plywood layer. This should allow removal of most of
          the bottom shoes, and also the irksome inside bottom stiffening
          cleats that muck up a lovely flat cuddy floor for lying on.

          Sheath bottom in fibreglass before fixing bottom shoes etc.

          Will this be stiff enough?



          BOUYANCY/BALLAST.
          As the flooded boat is reported difficult to get to remain upright,
          and impossible to do so with the rig in place, these aspects need
          attention. The increased bottom thickness already mentioned will
          help put weight where needed, but is it enough? Transferring
          flotation situated down low, as per the underseat foam blocks, to a
          higher location also should help, but again is it enough?

          Also as in the changes from Otter to Otter ll, watertight
          compartmentalisation seems required. The cuddy should be very flood
          resistant, or watertight. Altering Frame #1 to a watertight bulkhead
          will have very little effect on cuddy space. There's still enough to
          lie down in. The space in front of the then Bulkhead #1 should
          perhaps then be made a free draining flooded well? And perhaps the
          large triangular foam block there in the bow could be done away
          with?

          Bulkhead #3 needs altering by filling in the swinging cuddy doors
          and replacing with cuddy access much higher up. Duckboard in the
          bulkhead with decktop sliding hatch; or just a deck hatch, perhaps
          hinged?

          Box-in the entire space aft of the cockpit seats from floor to rails
          and make a huge bouyancy/storage compartment with top hatch access.
          It may be more convenient to shorten the seats and box-in aft from
          Frame #4 ( how many people are to be carried anyway? You won't be
          able to stretch out on the cockpit floor any more, but a great
          galley box and cooler could be built into the forward side of that
          aft compartment.). Offset the rudder to allow a small outboard
          mounted on the transom. Recess the end of the compartment in way of
          the outboard.

          Fix foam blocks under aft compartment deck, and foam sheet under
          fore part of cuddy deck as insurance.

          Use two ballast sandbags; one beneath each seat, both shifted to
          windward side when under sail.

          LEEBOARDS.
          I'd be inclined to try assymetrics, even though it seems PCB doesn't
          think they're needed. They'd be even easier to shape, assuming the
          designed ones are not merely flat plates

          YULOH.
          Leave the outboard at home, take a yuloh and Cynthia J may just be a
          very competitive Everglades Challenge short course entrant. What do
          you think?

          What else could be done, or needs doing?

          Graeme

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger/files/CynthiaJ/

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bolger2/files/Cynthia%20J/

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Cynthia%
          20J./









          Bolger rules!!!
          - NO "GO AWAY SPAMMER!" posts!!! Please!
          - no cursing, flaming, trolling, spamming, respamming, or flogging dead horses
          - stay on topic, stay on thread, punctuate, no 'Ed, thanks, Fred' posts
          - Pls add your comments at the TOP, SIGN your posts, and snip away
          - Plans: Mr. Philip C. Bolger, P.O. Box 1209, Gloucester, MA, 01930, Fax: (978) 282-1349
          - Unsubscribe: bolger-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          - Open discussion: bolger_coffee_lounge-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          Yahoo! Groups Links
















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • captreed48
          As ... on her ... bottom to ... capsize is ... Well....capsize is a major concern. A friend of mine capsized his Cynthia J and could not get it upright. A
          Message 4 of 15 , Oct 6, 2006
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            As
            > designed, I believe Cynthia J would, if capsized, float fairly high
            on her
            > side, supported by the cabin and the bouyancy of the mast and gaff.
            > Righting her would require a swimmer to grab the stringers on the
            bottom to
            > pull her up or, more likely, a line to parbuckle the boat up. If
            capsize is
            > a major concern,

            Well....capsize is a major concern. A friend of mine capsized his
            Cynthia J and could not get it upright. A helpful park ranger boat and
            crew couldn't either but towed the boat submerged back to the launch
            ramp. By that time my friend was very hypothermic.


            I think bouyancy tanks in each quarter or across the entire transom and
            under the seats in addition to making the cabin watertight would vastly
            improve the situation. In that case the heavier bottom would help
            right her. (Not so if the boat isn't watertight..wood floats, but not
            very high.)

            Let us know how it goes.

            Reed
          • John and Kathy Trussell
            The standard approach for recovering a capsized dinghy is to put weight on the centerboard to lever the boat back on her feet. This doesn t work with
            Message 5 of 15 , Oct 7, 2006
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              The standard approach for recovering a capsized dinghy is to put weight on the centerboard to lever the boat back on her feet. This doesn't work with leeboards. If the leeboard is on the high side, it is too high for a swimmer to reach; if it is on the low side, a swimmer can't exert much force on it. Probably the best approach is to keep a length of line fastened to the gunwale amidships. If capsize occurs, throw the line over the high side of the boat, swim around to the bottom of the boat, and use the line to try to pull the boat up (with your feet on the bottom and pulling on the line).

              Obviously a boat floating high on it's side will be easier to right than one floating low. It would be relatively simple to add a bulkhead immediately behind the seats and deck in the space for substantial added bouyancy. If the seats were made wider to meet the sides and the joint between the outer edge of the seats and the side were made watertight (with fiberglass tape set in an epoxy fillet) the seats woud also provide some bouyancy (assuming thet the boat would float high enough on her side so that the inboard edge of the seat was above water).

              To make the boat truly self righting, it is necessary to add ballast either in the form of hard ballast or water ballast. If you are going to do that, it would probably be necessary to make the curve of the bottom deeper to float the additional weight.

              Another alternative is to add a 'Birdwatcher' cabin.

              All of these modifications a) increase the amount of plywood needed, b) increase the weight of the boat (degrading performance), and c) change the concept. If you want a small, self righting boat, maybe there are better designs than Cynthia J (see PCB's Old Shoe and Supermouse designs, for his approaches).

              JohnT
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: captreed48
              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 12:22 AM
              Subject: [bolger] Re: How would Mr Bolger update Cynthia J?


              As
              > designed, I believe Cynthia J would, if capsized, float fairly high
              on her
              > side, supported by the cabin and the bouyancy of the mast and gaff.
              > Righting her would require a swimmer to grab the stringers on the
              bottom to
              > pull her up or, more likely, a line to parbuckle the boat up. If
              capsize is
              > a major concern,

              Well....capsize is a major concern. A friend of mine capsized his
              Cynthia J and could not get it upright. A helpful park ranger boat and
              crew couldn't either but towed the boat submerged back to the launch
              ramp. By that time my friend was very hypothermic.

              I think bouyancy tanks in each quarter or across the entire transom and
              under the seats in addition to making the cabin watertight would vastly
              improve the situation. In that case the heavier bottom would help
              right her. (Not so if the boat isn't watertight..wood floats, but not
              very high.)

              Let us know how it goes.

              Reed






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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • graeme19121984
              Hi Reed, is that your 15July95 MAIB Capsised ! article? Good article mate. Did you know Jim Michalak now includes it in one of his catalogues? I ve liked
              Message 6 of 15 , Oct 8, 2006
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                Hi Reed,

                is that your 15July95 MAIB "Capsised !" article? Good article
                mate. Did you know Jim Michalak now includes it in one of his
                catalogues?

                I've liked Cynthia J forever (and not just because from adolescence
                on I'll always have an elevated pulse at merely the mention of the
                name Cynthia, but that's another story :)). I assumed she'd float
                alright, but when I read in the article that a repeat Bolger
                prototypes builder, a guy in Bolger's books, Tony Groves, had that
                trouble self rescueing her I sat up and took notice. Presumably,
                Tony is a competent sailor, so that's not the trouble with righting
                the boat. He would have included the designed flotation foam,
                wouldn't he? So that's not the trouble either.

                I'm not sure, but I think in addition to the rig weight, it's the
                low, under-seat flotation that would tend to keep her rolling over.
                I think the foam block in the bow would float the bow end a bit, but
                would be almost neutral as to orientation. Then there's an awful lot
                of water to bail, a problem if it's warm; let alone icy.

                In addittion to extra watertightness, chambers and sandbags, maybe
                a little weight bolted to the lower bulkhead 3# frame member would
                help? A little weight to aid in self rescue, not self right.

                For self righting, how about a lifting Single Handed Schooner type
                keel at bulkhead #3? You could possibly go coastwise then. Put a
                bridgedeck across there to support it that's boxed in either side
                for, say, more cockpit coolers. ( Yeah.., the CJ rig could be
                dropped into Micro, but CJ has her own certain cuteness in styling
                that's not only in her perky rig.) If that seems too much space
                subtracted from the cockpit, CJ with her plumb sides would really
                suit the outside, ballasted, twin daggerboards from Centennial ll;
                if the loss of the pivoting leeboards positioning flexibility could
                be stood. Right there, at the high sided cockpit rail, that type of
                lightly ballasted daggerboard would be a cinch to raise or lower.
                The flare that causes some trouble in their use on Centennial ll is
                absent.

                Did Tony report his experience to PCB, as it seems both PCB and
                Bernie Wolfard were reluctant to include Cynthia J in the CSD
                catalogue?

                It would at first appear a quick and easy thing for PCB to improve
                the self rescuing of CJ before catalogue inclusion, but he didn't
                (note: self -rescuing, not -righting). CJ seems to be from an
                earlier period where PCB was happy to hop between dinkum sharpie
                designs arising from either his own flow theory, or Chapelleian
                aprioristic postulate. Perhaps a time came when he was no longer
                able to do so, and would not update such designs having firmly moved
                to a new sharpie paradigm. He updated Bolger Flow Theory conforming
                Otter #231 much later to Otter ll #375, but couldn't do so to
                Chapellian Cynthia J #289. If an exception proves the rule then he
                has a bob each way with the later Jesse Cooper #389; but even here
                he then could not update, and moved instead entirely to the new
                paradigm with AS29 #547.

                Graeme

                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "captreed48" <captreed@...> wrote:
                >
                > As
                > > designed, I believe Cynthia J would, if capsized, float fairly
                high
                > on her
                > > side, supported by the cabin and the bouyancy of the mast and
                gaff.
                > > Righting her would require a swimmer to grab the stringers on
                the
                > bottom to
                > > pull her up or, more likely, a line to parbuckle the boat up.
                If
                > capsize is
                > > a major concern,
                >
                > Well....capsize is a major concern. A friend of mine capsized his
                > Cynthia J and could not get it upright. A helpful park ranger
                boat and
                > crew couldn't either but towed the boat submerged back to the
                launch
                > ramp. By that time my friend was very hypothermic.
                >
                >
                > I think bouyancy tanks in each quarter or across the entire
                transom and
                > under the seats in addition to making the cabin watertight would
                vastly
                > improve the situation. In that case the heavier bottom would help
                > right her. (Not so if the boat isn't watertight..wood floats, but
                not
                > very high.)
                >
                > Let us know how it goes.
                >
                > Reed
                >
              • graeme19121984
                ... needed, b) increase the weight of the boat (degrading performance), and c) change the concept. If you want a small, self righting boat, maybe there are
                Message 7 of 15 , Oct 8, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
                  <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > All of these modifications a) increase the amount of plywood
                  needed, b) increase the weight of the boat (degrading performance),
                  and c) change the concept. If you want a small, self righting boat,
                  maybe there are better designs than Cynthia J (see PCB's Old Shoe
                  and Supermouse designs, for his approaches).
                  >
                  > JohnT

                  Hi John,

                  all you say is true, and the increased plywood pile would nearly
                  complete AS19, a boat designed to serve close to the original
                  intention, I think, of a group day sailer with a cuddy, but with
                  much deck space for sprawling. However, for instance, in AS19 PCB&F
                  wanted to get away from people being confined to the cockpit and I
                  would like one that provides deep shelter. As PCB wrote about
                  Cynthia J it is rare to find a boat nowadays that you can sit in. He
                  has studied Herreshoff's Rozinante closely, and as Herreshoff
                  observed about the Rozinante that cockpit type tops all.

                  The sublime Anhinga could be got out from a slightly smaller pile of
                  wood than AS19 requires. She has the best cockpit. Wonderful.
                  However, she carries capsize and flooding concerns similar to the
                  unrevised Marth Jane. Doing away with the aft ventilation, and a
                  truly watertight hatch to the aft compartment might fix. The
                  ventilation as designed is very elegant, as is the truly amazing
                  system of apparent aft ballast COG shifting athwartships with
                  associated negative pitching that leads to the flooding concern as a
                  knock on effect.

                  Modification to Cynthia J might be easier, and she has that rig. The
                  boom on a gallows provides a great ridge pole for a cockpit tent.
                  Makes a nice place to sit out a sunny day under with lots of
                  ventilation and cooled sustenance close by. Carry the tent forward
                  to the mast and both cudddy hatches could be off in the rain.

                  Graeme
                • John and Kathy Trussell
                  This is an example of conflicting demands. Big, deep, open cockpits are wonderful things for a crew to enjoy, but they are subject to flooding in a knockdown
                  Message 8 of 15 , Oct 8, 2006
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                    This is an example of conflicting demands. Big, deep, open cockpits are wonderful things for a crew to enjoy, but they are subject to flooding in a knockdown or from a breaking wave. Bolger has expressed concerns about what would happen if Rozinante were flooded (he thinks she would sink due to the weight of her ballast). Possible solutions to the vulnerability of large, open cockpits are: a) a large volume of enclosed, watertight cabin and/or bulkheaded and decked area behind the cockpit; or b) enclosing the cockpit in a Birdwatcher type cabin.

                    I wish there was a way to have all the features that I want in a boat with none of the drawbcks, but I haven't found it yet!

                    John T
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: graeme19121984
                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 11:06 AM
                    Subject: [bolger] Re: How would Mr Bolger update Cynthia J?


                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
                    <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > All of these modifications a) increase the amount of plywood
                    needed, b) increase the weight of the boat (degrading performance),
                    and c) change the concept. If you want a small, self righting boat,
                    maybe there are better designs than Cynthia J (see PCB's Old Shoe
                    and Supermouse designs, for his approaches).
                    >
                    > JohnT

                    Hi John,

                    all you say is true, and the increased plywood pile would nearly
                    complete AS19, a boat designed to serve close to the original
                    intention, I think, of a group day sailer with a cuddy, but with
                    much deck space for sprawling. However, for instance, in AS19 PCB&F
                    wanted to get away from people being confined to the cockpit and I
                    would like one that provides deep shelter. As PCB wrote about
                    Cynthia J it is rare to find a boat nowadays that you can sit in. He
                    has studied Herreshoff's Rozinante closely, and as Herreshoff
                    observed about the Rozinante that cockpit type tops all.

                    The sublime Anhinga could be got out from a slightly smaller pile of
                    wood than AS19 requires. She has the best cockpit. Wonderful.
                    However, she carries capsize and flooding concerns similar to the
                    unrevised Marth Jane. Doing away with the aft ventilation, and a
                    truly watertight hatch to the aft compartment might fix. The
                    ventilation as designed is very elegant, as is the truly amazing
                    system of apparent aft ballast COG shifting athwartships with
                    associated negative pitching that leads to the flooding concern as a
                    knock on effect.

                    Modification to Cynthia J might be easier, and she has that rig. The
                    boom on a gallows provides a great ridge pole for a cockpit tent.
                    Makes a nice place to sit out a sunny day under with lots of
                    ventilation and cooled sustenance close by. Carry the tent forward
                    to the mast and both cudddy hatches could be off in the rain.

                    Graeme






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                  • pvanderwaart
                    As a former Cynthia J. owner, I have mixed bag of comments and reactions. I never capsized mine, but I realized that it would be a major mess if it ever
                    Message 9 of 15 , Oct 8, 2006
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                      As a former Cynthia J. owner, I have mixed bag of comments and
                      reactions. I never capsized mine, but I realized that it would be a
                      major mess if it ever happened. My boat had the flotation as designed,
                      and eventually I bought, but never installed, some additional
                      flotation. My idea was to run a section of the rigid baulk as
                      purchased vertically in the cabin. I suppose that would have been
                      about 10" x2' section, about 3' long. My idea was that it would lift
                      the boat while it was on its side. Just a guess; no calculations, no
                      experience. In a letter to me when I bought the plans, PCB suggested
                      lining the interior of the cabin top with foam.

                      As to standing on a leeboard to right the boat, I think that could
                      result in major damage.

                      In the MAIB that arrived at my house yesterday, PCB says he would now
                      give the boat a mast slot like the Chebacco, etc. I did find stepping
                      the mast to be a little closer to the end of my range of capabilities
                      than I liked. He also suggested reducing the size of the cabin.

                      As to major modifications to the design, I wonder if it makes much
                      sense to take that approach. PCB's ply boat techniques have changed a
                      lot, and a new design to the same spec would be a lot different. And
                      there is little point in modifying it in the direction of Micro.

                      Peter
                    • graeme19121984
                      ... Peter, thanks for this news, you ve given cause for me now to subscribe. This is a must read. Then I ll read again your considered Cynthia J observations
                      Message 10 of 15 , Oct 9, 2006
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                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > ...In the MAIB that arrived at my house yesterday,...

                        Peter, thanks for this news, you've given cause for me now to
                        subscribe. This is a must read. Then I'll read again your considered
                        Cynthia J observations based on use, here, and in the files.

                        Cheers
                        Graeme
                      • graeme19121984
                        Gene, Here s a rough comparison of two flat irons as is. No account taken of where the c.o.g. in each boat actually is. 400lbs added for crew and stuff.
                        Message 11 of 15 , Oct 11, 2006
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                          Gene,

                          Here's a rough comparison of two "flat irons" as is. No account
                          taken of where the c.o.g. in each boat actually is. 400lbs added for
                          crew and stuff. Michalak's estimate used for total constructed boat
                          weight of 35 lbs and 50 lbs per sheet respectively for 1/4 or 3/8
                          ply. No rig weight included. Go stormin' in CJ? Easy mod?

                          Cynthia J
                          Displacement to LWL 130
                          Hull Speed 5.01
                          Sail Area to Displacement 27.48
                          LWL to Beam 2.55
                          Motion Comfort 8.96
                          Capsize Ratio 2.37
                          Sailing Category racer
                          Pounds/Inch 275





                          Storm Petrel

                          Displacement to LWL 130
                          Hull Speed 5.19
                          Sail Area to Displacement 13.3
                          LWL to Beam 2.9
                          Motion Comfort 10.95
                          Capsize Ratio 2.08
                          Sailing Category cruiser/racer
                          Pounds/Inch 277

                          http://www.image-ination.com/sailcalc.html

                          Graeme




                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Gene T." <goldranger02-boats@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Graeme,
                          > Doubling or trippling the bottom will only help righting on
                          > a boat that is not flooded. Once the boat is filled, all that
                          plywood
                          > becomes flotation and will have the opposite effect. I think you
                          need
                          > some dense weight down there, lead, steel, at least epoxy filled
                          with
                          > something heavy. Then extra flotation to make sure you don't go
                          right
                          > to the bottom! 8^D
                          >
                          > Sincerely,
                          >
                          > "A house ashore is but a boat, so poorly
                          > built it will not float ---- "
                          >
                        • graeme19121984
                          Ok, Ive read that MAIB article now and it hasn t changed my perspective on Cynthia J very much, if any. The boat would still be better, from a self rescuing
                          Message 12 of 15 , Oct 16, 2006
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                            Ok, Ive read that MAIB article now and it hasn't changed my
                            perspective on Cynthia J very much, if any. The boat would still be
                            better, from a self rescuing and comfort point of view, for updates
                            made along the lines of Otter ll and similar. Yep, there is little
                            point in modifying Micro in the current Cynthia J direction, and
                            losing the stability and offshore capability, but Cynthia J would
                            benefit enormously from small attention to bouyancy and ballast.

                            PCB suggests the increased bottom thickness, and some extra
                            flotation in the quarters, also the 290lbs water ballast Rick
                            included to stop her going over and flooding like Martha Jane un-
                            revised, and Anhinga. I think a bow well would be better than a mast
                            slot alone as he suggests. The forward frame, middle bulkheads,
                            companion way, and storage mentioned in earlier posts would be
                            worthwhile little modifications IMHO.

                            In this article I think PCB looks at this hull as a big family's day
                            sailing dinghy rather than the comfy camp cruiser she might be. He
                            observes that more than one up, indeed with only two crew, it is
                            hard to trim the boat as it should be. If the seating places two
                            crew's weight too far aft of the C.O.B might not correct placement
                            of stuff stored in the cuddy balance it?

                            On the other hand, if the cabin is shortened to allow forward
                            extension of the side seats a comfortable cabin is lost for little
                            gain. This hull is not of his advanced sharpie type as PCB implies
                            in the article. It is a flat iron, as I understand the term. It
                            follows H I Chapelle's doctrine for sharpies of a long, dead-flat
                            run to the turn of the bottom. As such, crew weight placed further
                            than just a bit forward of where the seats are now will have the
                            undesirable effect of burying the chine forward with all the bad
                            follow-on effects that PCB has warned of so often. So, if crew sits
                            forward extra weight will have to be placed in the stern, and the
                            cabin is gone. With more crew this could be easily arranged, and
                            would suit, but it then is a very high sided dinghy.

                            As a cuddy camper this boat would be so good. Awaken, coffee, then
                            so easily bulk sail is hoisted to ghost off on the day's adventure
                            with the breeze hardly stirred in morning's first light.

                            Graeme



                            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
                            wrote:
                            > ...In the MAIB that arrived at my house yesterday, PCB says he
                            would now
                            > give the boat a mast slot like the Chebacco, etc. I did find
                            stepping
                            > the mast to be a little closer to the end of my range of
                            capabilities
                            > than I liked. He also suggested reducing the size of the cabin.
                            >
                            > As to major modifications to the design, I wonder if it makes much
                            > sense to take that approach. PCB's ply boat techniques have
                            changed a
                            > lot, and a new design to the same spec would be a lot different.
                            And
                            > there is little point in modifying it in the direction of Micro.
                            >
                            > Peter
                            >
                          • John and Kathy Trussell
                            Graeme-- It would be nice if all the things we want could be combined in a very short boat. Here are the problems that must be addressed in very smallboats.
                            Message 13 of 15 , Oct 17, 2006
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                              Graeme--

                              It would be nice if all the things we want could be combined in a very short boat. Here are the problems that must be addressed in very smallboats.

                              1) On small boats, crew weight makes up a very large portion of the boat's total displacement. Placement of crew weight has a major impact on performance.

                              2) A 'cabin' needs to be long enough so that an adult can lie down--for average folks, this is around 75 ". If two people are to sleep in the cabin, the sleeping area should be between 42'' and 48' wide at the head and at least 36" wide at the foot.

                              3) There are three possible ways to get a decent cabin in a very short boat. You can have a cockpit behind the cabin; this will put crew weight in the back of the boat, possibly trimming the boat down by the stern. You can stack the cockpit on top of part of the cabin (examples are Peephen, Lynx, and the origunal West Wight Potter). You can combine the cabin and cockpit, sailing from inside the cabin (Birdwatcher, Supermouse, and several of Michalak's designs).

                              4) One of the things that drove the Cynthis J design was to have a very simple boat which was styled to look sort of like a Cape Cod Catboat. (And I think that PCB was very successful in this regard.) I know that Cynthia J's looks were (and are) one of the main reasons that I continue to admire this design. The desire for this catboat effect precludes a Birdwatcher cabin (which PCB tried, without success on the Flatfish design).

                              If I were going to play naval architect and revamp Cynthia J, I would move the main bulkhead forward and add a bulkhead and deck to the aft end of the cockpit. This would move crew weight forward. I would then close in the seats and cut holes in the bulkhead to create two quarter berths (these would not be very satisfactory and would often be damp, but what can you expect). Lastly, I would beef up the bottom to as much as an inch, adding a fair amount of ballast. Even with all this, Cynthis J is a sailor for sheltered waters, and I would consider her a character daysailor with the capability for an occassional one night cruise.

                              JohnT
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: graeme19121984
                              To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 10:51 PM
                              Subject: [bolger] Re: How would Mr Bolger update Cynthia J?


                              Ok, Ive read that MAIB article now and it hasn't changed my
                              perspective on Cynthia J very much, if any. The boat would still be
                              better, from a self rescuing and comfort point of view, for updates
                              made along the lines of Otter ll and similar. Yep, there is little
                              point in modifying Micro in the current Cynthia J direction, and
                              losing the stability and offshore capability, but Cynthia J would
                              benefit enormously from small attention to bouyancy and ballast.

                              PCB suggests the increased bottom thickness, and some extra
                              flotation in the quarters, also the 290lbs water ballast Rick
                              included to stop her going over and flooding like Martha Jane un-
                              revised, and Anhinga. I think a bow well would be better than a mast
                              slot alone as he suggests. The forward frame, middle bulkheads,
                              companion way, and storage mentioned in earlier posts would be
                              worthwhile little modifications IMHO.

                              In this article I think PCB looks at this hull as a big family's day
                              sailing dinghy rather than the comfy camp cruiser she might be. He
                              observes that more than one up, indeed with only two crew, it is
                              hard to trim the boat as it should be. If the seating places two
                              crew's weight too far aft of the C.O.B might not correct placement
                              of stuff stored in the cuddy balance it?

                              On the other hand, if the cabin is shortened to allow forward
                              extension of the side seats a comfortable cabin is lost for little
                              gain. This hull is not of his advanced sharpie type as PCB implies
                              in the article. It is a flat iron, as I understand the term. It
                              follows H I Chapelle's doctrine for sharpies of a long, dead-flat
                              run to the turn of the bottom. As such, crew weight placed further
                              than just a bit forward of where the seats are now will have the
                              undesirable effect of burying the chine forward with all the bad
                              follow-on effects that PCB has warned of so often. So, if crew sits
                              forward extra weight will have to be placed in the stern, and the
                              cabin is gone. With more crew this could be easily arranged, and
                              would suit, but it then is a very high sided dinghy.

                              As a cuddy camper this boat would be so good. Awaken, coffee, then
                              so easily bulk sail is hoisted to ghost off on the day's adventure
                              with the breeze hardly stirred in morning's first light.

                              Graeme

                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
                              wrote:
                              > ...In the MAIB that arrived at my house yesterday, PCB says he
                              would now
                              > give the boat a mast slot like the Chebacco, etc. I did find
                              stepping
                              > the mast to be a little closer to the end of my range of
                              capabilities
                              > than I liked. He also suggested reducing the size of the cabin.
                              >
                              > As to major modifications to the design, I wonder if it makes much
                              > sense to take that approach. PCB's ply boat techniques have
                              changed a
                              > lot, and a new design to the same spec would be a lot different.
                              And
                              > there is little point in modifying it in the direction of Micro.
                              >
                              > Peter
                              >






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                            • graeme19121984
                              ... Me too. Graeme
                              Message 14 of 15 , Oct 17, 2006
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                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "John and Kathy Trussell"
                                <jtrussell2@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >I know that Cynthia J's looks were (and are) one of the main
                                >reasons that I continue to admire this design.

                                <long sigh> Me too.

                                Graeme
                              • pvanderwaart
                                On the subject of crew position, I agree with the notion that having the crew a bit too far forward is worse that having it aft. As designed, crew weight
                                Message 15 of 15 , Oct 18, 2006
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                                  On the subject of crew position, I agree with the notion that having
                                  the crew a bit too far forward is worse that having it aft. As
                                  designed, crew weight causes the boat to pivot about a point near the
                                  forward end of the lwl, and the new immersed shape is a heavier
                                  displacement version of the original. (Note PCB kept the stern up out
                                  of the water to make this possible.) I found the boat went upwind very
                                  well with skipper plus two lightish crew, or one heavy one. The low
                                  seating position is a plus.

                                  I only sailed the boat solo once or twice, and was surprised by how
                                  quickly she heeled with a light load.

                                  If you look at the plans carefully, you will note the extreme
                                  simplicity that PCB had in mind. He did not draw any blocks or
                                  mechanical advantages, leeboard pendants, lifts or stops for the
                                  swinging rudder blade, etc. Partly, I think this was to save drawing
                                  board time. Partly, just for simplicity. My boat took 300-400 hours by
                                  a average-skilled professional in a well equipped boatshop.
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