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Re: Bolger commisions

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  • donschultz8275
    Bruce, Looking fwd to the launch of your Spyder version of Topaz. I guess I understood a square stern Topaz to maintain greater beam to the stern thus having
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 1, 2006
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      Bruce,

      Looking fwd to the launch of your Spyder version of Topaz.

      I guess I understood a square stern Topaz to maintain greater beam to
      the stern thus having more planing area. That is implied in the MAIB
      Tennesee article.

      My original post was to ask if anybody is seeing completion of their
      commissions.

      Don Schultz
    • Dominic tyson
      I wonder if anyone has given up on waiting for commision results and has asked for a refund? It is now at least three years since the Snow Leopard design
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 2, 2006
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        I wonder if anyone has given up on waiting for commision results and has asked for a refund? It is now at least three years since the "Snow Leopard" design was instigated and with money spent there is still no contact on progress. Lucky we decided to concentrate on building the "Bunny R" Lobster Boat!!

        donschultz8275 <donschultz@...> wrote: Bruce,

        Looking fwd to the launch of your Spyder version of Topaz.

        I guess I understood a square stern Topaz to maintain greater beam to
        the stern thus having more planing area. That is implied in the MAIB
        Tennesee article.

        My original post was to ask if anybody is seeing completion of their
        commissions.

        Don Schultz






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      • adventures_in_astrophotography
        Hi Dominic, ... We re still holding out for Auriga, now well over five years in the queue, and like you with money spent up front. We have had no contact from
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 2, 2006
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          Hi Dominic,

          > I wonder if anyone has given up on waiting for commision results and
          > has asked for a refund? It is now at least three years since
          > the "Snow Leopard" design was instigated and with money spent there
          > is still no contact on progress. Lucky we decided to concentrate on
          > building the "Bunny R" Lobster Boat!!

          We're still holding out for Auriga, now well over five years in the
          queue, and like you with money spent up front. We have had no contact
          from PB&F in over 10 months, with two faxes from us during that time
          going unanswered. I plan to write them again at the end of September
          if we don't hear anything by then. We have no contract with PB&F,
          having been told that they don't work to written agreements.
          The "agreement" we have was that all monies were non-refundable once
          work had started, although it was also stated that the job would take
          10-15 months. At this point we don't feel that we have anything to
          gain by bailing out, and we really want the design (it's our retirement
          home), so we're hanging in there. I just hope that by the time we get
          it, I'm still fit enough to build it myself. The fleet of small boats
          I've built (and continue to build) while waiting is good practice, I
          tell myself. Cartoon 40 is a leading candidate for this fall once
          hunting season is over, but I'd rather get started on our cruiser
          instead.

          From what PB&F have told us, the nominal pecking order seems to be #666
          Insolent 60, #667 Shine, #668 Auriga, and after that I have no idea.
          One of their last communications to us, perhaps 18-24 months ago,
          indicated that I60 was 95% complete, and Shine 90%, with no estimate of
          progress given for our Auriga (although they had done some work on
          it). However, as readers of MAIB can see, the design numbers do not
          necessarily have anything to do with what order things gets worked on.
          I believe Becky Thatcher is #669, but appears to have been commissioned
          after the three mentioned above.

          Updates to older designs and new concept studies appear to me to have
          been undertaken and finished in the last five years as well, including
          BWII, Chebacco's raised deck, Captain Rebecca Thatcher, Volunteer's rig
          and outboard upgrade, Alaska Cargo Boat's air-cooled diesel and lug
          rig, the big Proa, and several others I can't recall at the moment. A
          little over four years ago, Susanne told me that they really wanted to
          update the Light Schooner to make it a better camp cruiser, so it
          wouldn't surprise me to see that one get ahead of the other work as
          well. In fact, MAIB is starting to become a negative factor in my
          overall happiness, since whenever a new concept or update appears, it
          means more delay in our commission.

          Given the history above, who's to say that Snow Leopard or Sitka
          Explorer won't be finished next?

          Jon Kolb
          www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
        • Susan Davis
          ... When I last heard from Phil and Suzanne 18-24 months ago, they indicated that there was still a lot of work remaining on the I60, and that it was a very
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 2, 2006
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            Jon Kolb:
            > One of their last communications to us, perhaps 18-24 months ago,
            > indicated that I60 was 95% complete, and Shine 90%, with no
            > estimate of progress given for our Auriga (although they had done
            > some work on it).

            When I last heard from Phil and Suzanne 18-24 months ago, they
            indicated that there was still a lot of work remaining on the I60, and
            that it was a very hard problem. I'm still not in a position to begin
            work on mine yet in any event, so the delay isn't such a big deal, but
            I know that David was much more impatient.

            --
            Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
          • dbaldnz
            ... has asked for a refund? It is now at least three years since the Snow Leopard design was instigated and with money spent there is still no contact on
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 3, 2006
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              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Dominic tyson <dominictyson@...> wrote:
              >
              > I wonder if anyone has given up on waiting for commision results and
              has asked for a refund? It is now at least three years since the
              "Snow Leopard" design was instigated and with money spent there is
              still no contact on progress. Lucky we decided to concentrate on
              building the "Bunny R" Lobster Boat!!
              Do you mean you have to pay money in advance!
              Wish I could get onto that,
              Don
            • Dominic tyson
              Yes we paid around $800 Australian dollars for the design to be started with at least the same to be paid on completion. I am really not too concerned about
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 3, 2006
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                Yes we paid around $800 Australian dollars for the design to be started with at least the same to be paid on completion. I am really not too concerned about it as the planking on the Lobster Boat is only days away from completion but there is still plenty of building to do and money to spend before it will be finished!!

                dbaldnz <oink@...> wrote: --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Dominic tyson <dominictyson@...> wrote:
                >
                > I wonder if anyone has given up on waiting for commision results and
                has asked for a refund? It is now at least three years since the
                "Snow Leopard" design was instigated and with money spent there is
                still no contact on progress. Lucky we decided to concentrate on
                building the "Bunny R" Lobster Boat!!
                Do you mean you have to pay money in advance!
                Wish I could get onto that,
                Don






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              • pvanderwaart
                Y all are remarkably patient. I know guys who would be asking for an update every month. I don t think that a quarterly progress report is too much to ask.
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 3, 2006
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                  Y'all are remarkably patient. I know guys who would be asking for an
                  update every month. I don't think that a quarterly progress report is
                  too much to ask.

                  PCB&F is very unbusinesslike, but it is a business, none-the-less, and
                  you should be able to treat it like one.
                • derbyrm
                  Having been a key player in many design projects, I have to chuckle at the phrases 95% complete and 90% complete. Those were common in our progress
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 3, 2006
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                    Having been a key player in many design projects, I have to chuckle at the phrases "95% complete" and "90% complete." Those were common in our progress reports and were pulled out of thin air based on how fast we were spending the available funds.

                    When doing a new design from scratch, one doesn't have any idea what the total design effort is going to be, and I can cite many examples of cases where most of the hardware and software was designed in a straightforward fashion and one seemingly trivial area demanded hundreds of man-hours.

                    It would really have helped our subsequent proposal efforts if we'd had a summary generated after a design was complete showing where the effort was expended and how much the design cost when delivered, but that never happened. Marketing didn't want such evidence laying around to hamper their future efforts.

                    Roger
                    derbyrm@...
                    http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Susan Davis
                    To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:34 AM
                    Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger commisions


                    Jon Kolb:
                    > One of their last communications to us, perhaps 18-24 months ago,
                    > indicated that I60 was 95% complete, and Shine 90%, with no
                    > estimate of progress given for our Auriga (although they had done
                    > some work on it).

                    When I last heard from Phil and Suzanne 18-24 months ago, they
                    indicated that there was still a lot of work remaining on the I60, and
                    that it was a very hard problem. I'm still not in a position to begin
                    work on mine yet in any event, so the delay isn't such a big deal, but
                    I know that David was much more impatient.

                    --
                    Susan Davis <futabachan@...>





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Nels
                    ... update the Light Schooner to make it a better camp cruiser, so it wouldn t surprise me to see that one get ahead of the other work as well. In fact, MAIB
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 8, 2006
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                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
                      <jon@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >Susanne told me that they really wanted to
                      update the Light Schooner to make it a better camp cruiser, so it
                      wouldn't surprise me to see that one get ahead of the other work as
                      well. In fact, MAIB is starting to become a negative factor in my
                      overall happiness, since whenever a new concept or update appears, it
                      means more delay in our commission.

                      Given the history above, who's to say that Snow Leopard or Sitka
                      Explorer won't be finished next?

                      Jon Kolb
                      www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm

                      I found this of interest. I was looking at Camper plans and noticed
                      the basic hull is much the same as the LS. So was thinking that an LS
                      with a forward centerboard, instead of a daggerboard, a larger
                      rudder, and the other design features of Camper, like the hard mast
                      strut and fold-dwon masts, applied to the LS hull would make one
                      slippery fast and versatile camp cruiser. And with the Birdwatcher
                      style topsides it would be self-righting as well. Was almost going to
                      fax an enquiry to PCB&F but now I see it would only make things worse
                      for those still waiting for plans already in the works.

                      Very sad really. I wonder if Suesanne's penchant for detail slows
                      down Phil's work more than his advancing years?

                      Nels
                    • adventures_in_astrophotography
                      Hi Nels, ... My recollections are from a phone conversation with Susanne about 3-1/2 years ago. I was looking for something simple to build while they were
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 9, 2006
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                        Hi Nels,

                        > I found this of interest. I was looking at Camper plans and noticed
                        > the basic hull is much the same as the LS. So was thinking that an LS
                        > with a forward centerboard, instead of a daggerboard, a larger
                        > rudder, and the other design features of Camper, like the hard mast
                        > strut and fold-dwon masts, applied to the LS hull would make one
                        > slippery fast and versatile camp cruiser. And with the Birdwatcher
                        > style topsides it would be self-righting as well. Was almost going to
                        > fax an enquiry to PCB&F but now I see it would only make things worse
                        > for those still waiting for plans already in the works.

                        My recollections are from a phone conversation with Susanne about 3-1/2
                        years ago. I was looking for something simple to build while they were
                        working on our commission that would give us some experience with a two-
                        master on a small scale. The LS was on obvious choice, but I couldn't
                        fit the boat in my garage with the bowsprit. Phil was nice enough to
                        draw the cat schooner rig one evening, which solved that problem and
                        also gave the boat two identical sails, approximating a simpler version
                        of Auriga's rig-to-be.

                        While we were talking about this, she mentioned some eventual
                        improvements to the LS that were to address a scenario where a couple
                        of young campers would sail the boat during the day and camp on board
                        at night. These improvements included a centerboard, twin shallow
                        fixed rudders with endplates, and moving the outboard mount to the
                        transom between the rudders. In addition, the boat was to be given
                        wide side decks with the cockpits boxed in and have several watertight
                        hatches for dry stowage of camping gear. I don't recall any changes to
                        the rig being mentioned, but I don't see how two youngsters could sail
                        that boat without it being reefed down all the time. Susanne did not
                        mention a BW house.

                        I wound up implementing the wide side decks and cockpit construction
                        based on my own interpretation of how this might look, and we're happy
                        with it (except that eight Bomar watertight hatches are quite expensive
                        and I haven't put them in yet in four years since). The wide side
                        decks are great for sitting and sailing, and if she ever goes over, I
                        don't see how she could ship any water in the cockpits. The twin
                        rudder idea was very appealing, but I wasn't about to try that on my
                        own. Moving the motor to the transom is also very appealing, and I
                        think that would be a big improvement over the well and plug design.

                        Having just spent three weekends repairing the daggerboard ("hey, this
                        water looks like it's getting shallow"...wham!), I'd be in favor of a
                        pivoting centerboard as well. I have no idea if PB&F have pursued any
                        of these ideas since then, or if they still plan to.

                        Jon Kolb
                        www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
                      • oarmandt
                        This got done out of its turn and was taken a good deal further (to study plan instead of just a cartoon ) than I meant to, because it jelled until I got
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 10, 2006
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                          "This got done out of its turn and was taken a good deal further (to study
                          plan instead of just a 'cartoon') than I meant to, because it jelled
                          until I got hooked. I tried this and that--and one suddenly clicked."

                          That is apparently a quote from Mr. Bolger regarding the Micro, from
                          Elrow LaRowe's flyer. (See
                          http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/letters/flyer.htm ) Seems he has
                          some history of working on what inspires him at the time rather than
                          the next commission in line. If the boss lets me be, I do the same
                          myself. If your design is slow in coming, it is not yet an inspired
                          Bolger classic.

                          Doug


                          --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
                          > <jon@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >Susanne told me that they really wanted to
                          > update the Light Schooner to make it a better camp cruiser, so it
                          > wouldn't surprise me to see that one get ahead of the other work as
                          > well. In fact, MAIB is starting to become a negative factor in my
                          > overall happiness, since whenever a new concept or update appears, it
                          > means more delay in our commission.
                          >
                          > Given the history above, who's to say that Snow Leopard or Sitka
                          > Explorer won't be finished next?
                          >
                          > Jon Kolb
                          > www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
                          >
                        • Bruce Hallman
                          ... Thanks Doug, you describe perfectly what I think all of us love about Bolger boats, that they are often a work of inspiration.
                          Message 12 of 17 , Aug 11, 2006
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                            > "This got done out of its turn and was taken a good deal further (to study
                            > plan instead of just a 'cartoon') than I meant to, because it jelled
                            > until I got hooked. I tried this and that--and one suddenly clicked."
                            >
                            > That is apparently a quote from Mr. Bolger regarding the Micro, from
                            > Elrow LaRowe's flyer. (See
                            > http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/letters/flyer.htm ) Seems he has
                            > some history of working on what inspires him at the time rather than
                            > the next commission in line. If the boss lets me be, I do the same
                            > myself. If your design is slow in coming, it is not yet an inspired
                            > Bolger classic.
                            >
                            > Doug

                            Thanks Doug, you describe perfectly what I think all of us love about
                            Bolger boats, that they are often a work of inspiration.
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