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Re: [bolger] Bolger commisions

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  • Bruce Hallman
    ... I think, also, Insolent 60 and Snow Leopard. With Topaz, everything aft of the motor mount is just fairing , so with the use of a saw, Topaz is already
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 1 10:07 AM
      On 8/1/06, donschultz8275 <donschultz@...> wrote:
      > Reading in MAIB about Tenn' there was mention of a square stern
      > Topaz "eventually". This brought to mind there is some number of
      > commissioned designs pending for members of this group.
      >
      > Any word on Ataraxia, Sitka Explorer, or others?

      I think, also, Insolent 60 and Snow Leopard.

      With Topaz, everything aft of the motor mount is just 'fairing', so
      with the use of a saw, Topaz is already square sterned in my opinion.
      :)

      By the way, last weekend, I installed my 90hp Honda on that motor
      mount. Last night I did the plumbing for the bilge pump.
    • Bruce Hallman
      ... If I am not mistaken, I have never heard that Sitka Explorer has been actually comissioned for completion, do I remember that correctly?
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 1 10:09 AM
        > > Any word on Ataraxia, Sitka Explorer, or others?

        If I am not mistaken, I have never heard that Sitka Explorer has been
        actually comissioned for completion, do I remember that correctly?
      • Sam Glasscock
        I believe that Sitka Explorer was commissioned, and the Delaware Trawler was as well. ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 1 10:38 AM
          I believe that Sitka Explorer was commissioned, and
          the Delaware Trawler was as well.

          --- Bruce Hallman <bruce@...> wrote:

          > > > Any word on Ataraxia, Sitka Explorer, or
          > others?
          >
          > If I am not mistaken, I have never heard that Sitka
          > Explorer has been
          > actually comissioned for completion, do I remember
          > that correctly?
          >


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        • oarmandt
          No word lately on Wandervogel either, just the cryptic mentions of the design work backlog that show up in MAIB from time to time. Wandervogel is a 23 water
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 1 6:27 PM
            No word lately on Wandervogel either, just the cryptic mentions of the
            design work backlog that show up in MAIB from time to time.
            Wandervogel is a 23' water ballasted trailerable cruiser with chinese
            gaff rig and birdwatcher cabin. A photo of my model is on the title
            page of the Bolger 3 group.

            I am not so sure that Wandervogel counts as a "commissioned" design.
            It was initiated more as a stock plan for which I was the sponsor. I
            think that PB&F were anxious to have something more reflective of
            their current ideas than the Martha Jane which meets a similar mission.

            Doug


            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "donschultz8275" <donschultz@...> wrote:
            >
            > Reading in MAIB about Tenn' there was mention of a square stern
            > Topaz "eventually". This brought to mind there is some number of
            > commissioned designs pending for members of this group.
            >
            > Any word on Ataraxia, Sitka Explorer, or others?
            >
          • donschultz8275
            Bruce, Looking fwd to the launch of your Spyder version of Topaz. I guess I understood a square stern Topaz to maintain greater beam to the stern thus having
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 1 6:37 PM
              Bruce,

              Looking fwd to the launch of your Spyder version of Topaz.

              I guess I understood a square stern Topaz to maintain greater beam to
              the stern thus having more planing area. That is implied in the MAIB
              Tennesee article.

              My original post was to ask if anybody is seeing completion of their
              commissions.

              Don Schultz
            • Dominic tyson
              I wonder if anyone has given up on waiting for commision results and has asked for a refund? It is now at least three years since the Snow Leopard design
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 2 2:06 AM
                I wonder if anyone has given up on waiting for commision results and has asked for a refund? It is now at least three years since the "Snow Leopard" design was instigated and with money spent there is still no contact on progress. Lucky we decided to concentrate on building the "Bunny R" Lobster Boat!!

                donschultz8275 <donschultz@...> wrote: Bruce,

                Looking fwd to the launch of your Spyder version of Topaz.

                I guess I understood a square stern Topaz to maintain greater beam to
                the stern thus having more planing area. That is implied in the MAIB
                Tennesee article.

                My original post was to ask if anybody is seeing completion of their
                commissions.

                Don Schultz






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              • adventures_in_astrophotography
                Hi Dominic, ... We re still holding out for Auriga, now well over five years in the queue, and like you with money spent up front. We have had no contact from
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 2 6:59 AM
                  Hi Dominic,

                  > I wonder if anyone has given up on waiting for commision results and
                  > has asked for a refund? It is now at least three years since
                  > the "Snow Leopard" design was instigated and with money spent there
                  > is still no contact on progress. Lucky we decided to concentrate on
                  > building the "Bunny R" Lobster Boat!!

                  We're still holding out for Auriga, now well over five years in the
                  queue, and like you with money spent up front. We have had no contact
                  from PB&F in over 10 months, with two faxes from us during that time
                  going unanswered. I plan to write them again at the end of September
                  if we don't hear anything by then. We have no contract with PB&F,
                  having been told that they don't work to written agreements.
                  The "agreement" we have was that all monies were non-refundable once
                  work had started, although it was also stated that the job would take
                  10-15 months. At this point we don't feel that we have anything to
                  gain by bailing out, and we really want the design (it's our retirement
                  home), so we're hanging in there. I just hope that by the time we get
                  it, I'm still fit enough to build it myself. The fleet of small boats
                  I've built (and continue to build) while waiting is good practice, I
                  tell myself. Cartoon 40 is a leading candidate for this fall once
                  hunting season is over, but I'd rather get started on our cruiser
                  instead.

                  From what PB&F have told us, the nominal pecking order seems to be #666
                  Insolent 60, #667 Shine, #668 Auriga, and after that I have no idea.
                  One of their last communications to us, perhaps 18-24 months ago,
                  indicated that I60 was 95% complete, and Shine 90%, with no estimate of
                  progress given for our Auriga (although they had done some work on
                  it). However, as readers of MAIB can see, the design numbers do not
                  necessarily have anything to do with what order things gets worked on.
                  I believe Becky Thatcher is #669, but appears to have been commissioned
                  after the three mentioned above.

                  Updates to older designs and new concept studies appear to me to have
                  been undertaken and finished in the last five years as well, including
                  BWII, Chebacco's raised deck, Captain Rebecca Thatcher, Volunteer's rig
                  and outboard upgrade, Alaska Cargo Boat's air-cooled diesel and lug
                  rig, the big Proa, and several others I can't recall at the moment. A
                  little over four years ago, Susanne told me that they really wanted to
                  update the Light Schooner to make it a better camp cruiser, so it
                  wouldn't surprise me to see that one get ahead of the other work as
                  well. In fact, MAIB is starting to become a negative factor in my
                  overall happiness, since whenever a new concept or update appears, it
                  means more delay in our commission.

                  Given the history above, who's to say that Snow Leopard or Sitka
                  Explorer won't be finished next?

                  Jon Kolb
                  www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
                • Susan Davis
                  ... When I last heard from Phil and Suzanne 18-24 months ago, they indicated that there was still a lot of work remaining on the I60, and that it was a very
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 2 9:34 PM
                    Jon Kolb:
                    > One of their last communications to us, perhaps 18-24 months ago,
                    > indicated that I60 was 95% complete, and Shine 90%, with no
                    > estimate of progress given for our Auriga (although they had done
                    > some work on it).

                    When I last heard from Phil and Suzanne 18-24 months ago, they
                    indicated that there was still a lot of work remaining on the I60, and
                    that it was a very hard problem. I'm still not in a position to begin
                    work on mine yet in any event, so the delay isn't such a big deal, but
                    I know that David was much more impatient.

                    --
                    Susan Davis <futabachan@...>
                  • dbaldnz
                    ... has asked for a refund? It is now at least three years since the Snow Leopard design was instigated and with money spent there is still no contact on
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 3 12:18 AM
                      --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Dominic tyson <dominictyson@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I wonder if anyone has given up on waiting for commision results and
                      has asked for a refund? It is now at least three years since the
                      "Snow Leopard" design was instigated and with money spent there is
                      still no contact on progress. Lucky we decided to concentrate on
                      building the "Bunny R" Lobster Boat!!
                      Do you mean you have to pay money in advance!
                      Wish I could get onto that,
                      Don
                    • Dominic tyson
                      Yes we paid around $800 Australian dollars for the design to be started with at least the same to be paid on completion. I am really not too concerned about
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 3 1:49 AM
                        Yes we paid around $800 Australian dollars for the design to be started with at least the same to be paid on completion. I am really not too concerned about it as the planking on the Lobster Boat is only days away from completion but there is still plenty of building to do and money to spend before it will be finished!!

                        dbaldnz <oink@...> wrote: --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Dominic tyson <dominictyson@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I wonder if anyone has given up on waiting for commision results and
                        has asked for a refund? It is now at least three years since the
                        "Snow Leopard" design was instigated and with money spent there is
                        still no contact on progress. Lucky we decided to concentrate on
                        building the "Bunny R" Lobster Boat!!
                        Do you mean you have to pay money in advance!
                        Wish I could get onto that,
                        Don






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                      • pvanderwaart
                        Y all are remarkably patient. I know guys who would be asking for an update every month. I don t think that a quarterly progress report is too much to ask.
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 3 5:51 AM
                          Y'all are remarkably patient. I know guys who would be asking for an
                          update every month. I don't think that a quarterly progress report is
                          too much to ask.

                          PCB&F is very unbusinesslike, but it is a business, none-the-less, and
                          you should be able to treat it like one.
                        • derbyrm
                          Having been a key player in many design projects, I have to chuckle at the phrases 95% complete and 90% complete. Those were common in our progress
                          Message 12 of 17 , Aug 3 5:00 PM
                            Having been a key player in many design projects, I have to chuckle at the phrases "95% complete" and "90% complete." Those were common in our progress reports and were pulled out of thin air based on how fast we were spending the available funds.

                            When doing a new design from scratch, one doesn't have any idea what the total design effort is going to be, and I can cite many examples of cases where most of the hardware and software was designed in a straightforward fashion and one seemingly trivial area demanded hundreds of man-hours.

                            It would really have helped our subsequent proposal efforts if we'd had a summary generated after a design was complete showing where the effort was expended and how much the design cost when delivered, but that never happened. Marketing didn't want such evidence laying around to hamper their future efforts.

                            Roger
                            derbyrm@...
                            http://home.insightbb.com/~derbyrm

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Susan Davis
                            To: bolger@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 12:34 AM
                            Subject: [bolger] Re: Bolger commisions


                            Jon Kolb:
                            > One of their last communications to us, perhaps 18-24 months ago,
                            > indicated that I60 was 95% complete, and Shine 90%, with no
                            > estimate of progress given for our Auriga (although they had done
                            > some work on it).

                            When I last heard from Phil and Suzanne 18-24 months ago, they
                            indicated that there was still a lot of work remaining on the I60, and
                            that it was a very hard problem. I'm still not in a position to begin
                            work on mine yet in any event, so the delay isn't such a big deal, but
                            I know that David was much more impatient.

                            --
                            Susan Davis <futabachan@...>





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Nels
                            ... update the Light Schooner to make it a better camp cruiser, so it wouldn t surprise me to see that one get ahead of the other work as well. In fact, MAIB
                            Message 13 of 17 , Aug 8 3:16 PM
                              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
                              <jon@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >Susanne told me that they really wanted to
                              update the Light Schooner to make it a better camp cruiser, so it
                              wouldn't surprise me to see that one get ahead of the other work as
                              well. In fact, MAIB is starting to become a negative factor in my
                              overall happiness, since whenever a new concept or update appears, it
                              means more delay in our commission.

                              Given the history above, who's to say that Snow Leopard or Sitka
                              Explorer won't be finished next?

                              Jon Kolb
                              www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm

                              I found this of interest. I was looking at Camper plans and noticed
                              the basic hull is much the same as the LS. So was thinking that an LS
                              with a forward centerboard, instead of a daggerboard, a larger
                              rudder, and the other design features of Camper, like the hard mast
                              strut and fold-dwon masts, applied to the LS hull would make one
                              slippery fast and versatile camp cruiser. And with the Birdwatcher
                              style topsides it would be self-righting as well. Was almost going to
                              fax an enquiry to PCB&F but now I see it would only make things worse
                              for those still waiting for plans already in the works.

                              Very sad really. I wonder if Suesanne's penchant for detail slows
                              down Phil's work more than his advancing years?

                              Nels
                            • adventures_in_astrophotography
                              Hi Nels, ... My recollections are from a phone conversation with Susanne about 3-1/2 years ago. I was looking for something simple to build while they were
                              Message 14 of 17 , Aug 9 6:36 AM
                                Hi Nels,

                                > I found this of interest. I was looking at Camper plans and noticed
                                > the basic hull is much the same as the LS. So was thinking that an LS
                                > with a forward centerboard, instead of a daggerboard, a larger
                                > rudder, and the other design features of Camper, like the hard mast
                                > strut and fold-dwon masts, applied to the LS hull would make one
                                > slippery fast and versatile camp cruiser. And with the Birdwatcher
                                > style topsides it would be self-righting as well. Was almost going to
                                > fax an enquiry to PCB&F but now I see it would only make things worse
                                > for those still waiting for plans already in the works.

                                My recollections are from a phone conversation with Susanne about 3-1/2
                                years ago. I was looking for something simple to build while they were
                                working on our commission that would give us some experience with a two-
                                master on a small scale. The LS was on obvious choice, but I couldn't
                                fit the boat in my garage with the bowsprit. Phil was nice enough to
                                draw the cat schooner rig one evening, which solved that problem and
                                also gave the boat two identical sails, approximating a simpler version
                                of Auriga's rig-to-be.

                                While we were talking about this, she mentioned some eventual
                                improvements to the LS that were to address a scenario where a couple
                                of young campers would sail the boat during the day and camp on board
                                at night. These improvements included a centerboard, twin shallow
                                fixed rudders with endplates, and moving the outboard mount to the
                                transom between the rudders. In addition, the boat was to be given
                                wide side decks with the cockpits boxed in and have several watertight
                                hatches for dry stowage of camping gear. I don't recall any changes to
                                the rig being mentioned, but I don't see how two youngsters could sail
                                that boat without it being reefed down all the time. Susanne did not
                                mention a BW house.

                                I wound up implementing the wide side decks and cockpit construction
                                based on my own interpretation of how this might look, and we're happy
                                with it (except that eight Bomar watertight hatches are quite expensive
                                and I haven't put them in yet in four years since). The wide side
                                decks are great for sitting and sailing, and if she ever goes over, I
                                don't see how she could ship any water in the cockpits. The twin
                                rudder idea was very appealing, but I wasn't about to try that on my
                                own. Moving the motor to the transom is also very appealing, and I
                                think that would be a big improvement over the well and plug design.

                                Having just spent three weekends repairing the daggerboard ("hey, this
                                water looks like it's getting shallow"...wham!), I'd be in favor of a
                                pivoting centerboard as well. I have no idea if PB&F have pursued any
                                of these ideas since then, or if they still plan to.

                                Jon Kolb
                                www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
                              • oarmandt
                                This got done out of its turn and was taken a good deal further (to study plan instead of just a cartoon ) than I meant to, because it jelled until I got
                                Message 15 of 17 , Aug 10 6:51 PM
                                  "This got done out of its turn and was taken a good deal further (to study
                                  plan instead of just a 'cartoon') than I meant to, because it jelled
                                  until I got hooked. I tried this and that--and one suddenly clicked."

                                  That is apparently a quote from Mr. Bolger regarding the Micro, from
                                  Elrow LaRowe's flyer. (See
                                  http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/letters/flyer.htm ) Seems he has
                                  some history of working on what inspires him at the time rather than
                                  the next commission in line. If the boss lets me be, I do the same
                                  myself. If your design is slow in coming, it is not yet an inspired
                                  Bolger classic.

                                  Doug


                                  --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "Nels" <arvent@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "adventures_in_astrophotography"
                                  > <jon@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >Susanne told me that they really wanted to
                                  > update the Light Schooner to make it a better camp cruiser, so it
                                  > wouldn't surprise me to see that one get ahead of the other work as
                                  > well. In fact, MAIB is starting to become a negative factor in my
                                  > overall happiness, since whenever a new concept or update appears, it
                                  > means more delay in our commission.
                                  >
                                  > Given the history above, who's to say that Snow Leopard or Sitka
                                  > Explorer won't be finished next?
                                  >
                                  > Jon Kolb
                                  > www.kolbsadventures.com/boatbuilding_index.htm
                                  >
                                • Bruce Hallman
                                  ... Thanks Doug, you describe perfectly what I think all of us love about Bolger boats, that they are often a work of inspiration.
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Aug 11 6:35 AM
                                    > "This got done out of its turn and was taken a good deal further (to study
                                    > plan instead of just a 'cartoon') than I meant to, because it jelled
                                    > until I got hooked. I tried this and that--and one suddenly clicked."
                                    >
                                    > That is apparently a quote from Mr. Bolger regarding the Micro, from
                                    > Elrow LaRowe's flyer. (See
                                    > http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/letters/flyer.htm ) Seems he has
                                    > some history of working on what inspires him at the time rather than
                                    > the next commission in line. If the boss lets me be, I do the same
                                    > myself. If your design is slow in coming, it is not yet an inspired
                                    > Bolger classic.
                                    >
                                    > Doug

                                    Thanks Doug, you describe perfectly what I think all of us love about
                                    Bolger boats, that they are often a work of inspiration.
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