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Forest Belle

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  • graeme19121984
    I thought I d glimpsed and moved on by a reference to a forthcoming book that would have more details of the designs of the Antispray Long Island Sharpie type
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 18, 2006
      I thought I'd glimpsed and moved on by a reference to a forthcoming
      book that would have more details of the designs of the Antispray
      Long Island Sharpie type back around message #6990. Haven't seen it
      again (if I did in the first place), but did see the reference below
      to perhaps yet another PCB&F design not widely known.

      Is "Forest Belle" another Bolger? The context is just a little
      vague. If you're there Peter Vanderwaart, perhaps you could fill in
      some more details?

      Cheers
      Graeme

      I've pasted the posts below:


      Message #6992
      Traditional Bolger
      Hello Guys

      I'm wrestling with a difficult work problem here so how about a bit
      of
      diversionary procrastination on boats ??

      Recently I did a deal which has secured me a very large quantity of
      what we
      here in New Zealand call "Marcacarpa" (Yanks will know it
      as "Monterey
      Cypress", although trees grown here produce a slightly different
      timber that
      is reckoned to be superior to the original). Now this is about as
      fine a
      boatbuilding timber that one can get anywhere, we've used it for
      structure,
      planking, and fitting out in other boats. There's enough for a small
      ship.

      If I don't come up with a project for this timber, my wife (bless
      her)
      thinks she'll collar it for new kitchen joinery.

      I have all Bolgers books and some designs from these do appeal
      including
      "Sweet Chariot", "Shearwater" and "Antaxia". None of them are "the"
      boat
      however.

      I think something about 35-40 feet, of shallow to moderate draft,
      offshore
      capable, and of simple traditional round bilge construction will
      fill the
      bill.

      Now I know PCB has done many designs apart from those he's published
      in
      books so I'd love too get some ideas please.

      Regards

      Foster Price
      Southland, New Zealand

      Message #7006
      Re: Traditional Bolger
      >
      > I think something about 35-40 feet, of shallow to moderate draft,
      offshore
      > capable, and of simple traditional round bilge construction will
      fill the
      > bill.

      I nominate "Forest Belle." I think the design appeared in an article
      in WoodenBoat about how a wood design could compete with a FG one.
      Its a very traditional yawl with a big main. The boat is fairly
      narrow and deep, as I recall. The idea was to make a boat that was
      very easy to build and to sail, with the downside that it is a little
      big (long) for its accomdations by current standards.

      And beautiful.

      Peter
    • graeme19121984
      I thought I d glimpsed and moved on by a reference to a forthcoming book that would have more details of the designs of the Antispray Long Island Sharpie type
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 18, 2006
        I thought I'd glimpsed and moved on by a reference to a forthcoming
        book that would have more details of the designs of the Antispray
        Long Island Sharpie type back around message #6990. Haven't seen it
        again (if I did in the first place), but I did see the reference
        below to perhaps yet another PCB&F design not widely known.

        Is "Forest Belle" another Bolger? The context is just a little
        ambiguous. If you're there Peter Vanderwaart, perhaps you could fill
        in
        some more details?

        I've pasted the posts below:

        Cheers
        Graeme




        Message #6992
        Traditional Bolger
        Hello Guys

        I'm wrestling with a difficult work problem here so how about a bit
        of diversionary procrastination on boats ??

        Recently I did a deal which has secured me a very large quantity of
        what we here in New Zealand call "Marcacarpa" (Yanks will know it
        as "Monterey Cypress", although trees grown here produce a slightly
        different timber that is reckoned to be superior to the original).
        Now this is about as fine aboatbuilding timber that one can get
        anywhere, we've used it for structure,planking, and fitting out in
        other boats. There's enough for a small ship.

        If I don't come up with a project for this timber, my wife (bless
        her)thinks she'll collar it for new kitchen joinery.

        I have all Bolgers books and some designs from these do appeal
        including "Sweet Chariot", "Shearwater" and "Antaxia". None of them
        are "the" boathowever.

        I think something about 35-40 feet, of shallow to moderate draft,
        offshore capable, and of simple traditional round bilge construction
        will fill thebill.

        Now I know PCB has done many designs apart from those he's published
        inbooks so I'd love too get some ideas please.

        Regards

        Foster Price
        Southland, New Zealand

        ---------------------------------------------

        Message #7006
        Re: Traditional Bolger
        >
        > I think something about 35-40 feet, of shallow to moderate draft,
        offshore
        > capable, and of simple traditional round bilge construction will
        fill the
        > bill.

        I nominate "Forest Belle." I think the design appeared in an article
        in WoodenBoat about how a wood design could compete with a FG one.
        Its a very traditional yawl with a big main. The boat is fairly
        narrow and deep, as I recall. The idea was to make a boat that was
        very easy to build and to sail, with the downside that it is a little
        big (long) for its accomdations by current standards.

        And beautiful.

        Peter
      • pvanderwaart
        ... Perhaps I can find and scan the article on the weekend. The very first novel published (circa 1935?) by CP Snow was a murder mystery, name not remembered.
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 19, 2006
          > Is "Forest Belle" another Bolger? The context is just a little
          > vague. If you're there Peter Vanderwaart, perhaps you could fill in
          > some more details?

          Perhaps I can find and scan the article on the weekend.

          The very first novel published (circa 1935?) by CP Snow was a murder
          mystery, name not remembered. The action centered around a cruising
          sailboat called a wherry. I never actually had a good idea what the
          word "wherry" meant when applied to 35-40 foot sailboat. I bring this
          up because the Forest Belle design might well serve in a movie version
          (except that the exact design of the cockpit is vital to the story).
          So, to picture Forest Belle, you can conjure up what an English
          Cruisng Yawl of the pre-war years might be like. The gaff main is
          large, and the jib and mizzen are small. The hull form is deep so
          there isn't much "salient keel" (to borrow a PCB phrase), basically
          just the very heavy lead ballast casting.

          I have wondered what PCB would say if one pursued the design now
          because she is a deep keel boat with limited form stability (i.e. not
          flat bottom) and just the opposite of the kind of boats that he has
          been designing in the last ten years.

          The key to the design is that PCB did his best to design for the
          quickest and therefore cheapest, and otherwise best carvel planked
          wood construction. He is on record in many places saying that carvel
          planking makes the nicest boat, and he has pointed out that, however
          complicated it seems to the layman or beginner, the carvel/bent frames
          method was the most popular in its day because it was the quickest,
          cheapest, and otherwise best.

          Peter
        • lakepepinmollyblue
          ... The book is Death Under Sail. My wife found it at a thrift store this spring. A rather proper English period piece with a murder by small revolver, little
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 19, 2006
            --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
            >

            >
            > The very first novel published (circa 1935?) by CP Snow was a murder
            > mystery, name not remembered.


            The book is Death Under Sail. My wife found it at a thrift store this
            spring. A rather proper English period piece with a murder by small
            revolver, little mention of any blood, and a discussion of one's
            willingness to display one's body depending on having attended public
            or private school! Seemed it must have been a good size boat to house
            a shooting and a half dozen suspects.

            Bob
          • graeme19121984
            Thanks for your help Peter. I ve now a good idea of how Forest Belle may have looked, how she came to be, and why she was as she was. I d be interested to know
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 19, 2006
              Thanks for your help Peter. I've now a good idea of how Forest Belle
              may have looked, how she came to be, and why she was as she was. I'd
              be interested to know how PCB settled on the name "Forest Belle",
              perhaps another literary work?

              I'm hoping for a book from PCB in which he might cast an eye over his
              work, and comment from his current perspective taking us through his
              work as it has developed and unfolded along various themes. Some
              designs he might do differently now, for a builder now. Some designs I
              suspect are timeless, for a builder any now.

              Cheers
              Graeme

              --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:

              > Perhaps I can find and scan the article on the weekend.
              >
            • pvanderwaart
              Good news/Bad news. Good: I found my copy of WB # 66 with the Forest Belle article. Bad: I failed to bring it to work so I could scan it. Remedy: Patience.
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 21, 2006
                Good news/Bad news.

                Good: I found my copy of WB # 66 with the Forest Belle article.
                Bad: I failed to bring it to work so I could scan it.

                Remedy: Patience.
              • pvanderwaart
                The scans for the Forest Belle design are in the Files section fo boger_study_plans_only.
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 24, 2006
                  The scans for the Forest Belle design are in the Files section fo
                  boger_study_plans_only.

                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Forest%20Belle/

                  The material here is for a proposal, and as far as I know, it was
                  never made into a completed design. Still, a hundred years ago, many
                  boats were built without much more information than is in the
                  proposal, plus the table of offsets, plus Herreshoff's Scantling Rule
                  (or the builder's judgement).

                  One of the things that this proposal illustrates is how different
                  PCB's tastes and opinions are from the common throng. For example, he
                  tried to push this type of lug rig for a couple large boats, but
                  without much success. It's also a big boat at 40' and nearly 20,000
                  lbs with the accomodation of a Cape Dory 27. Forest Belle would be a
                  lot faster, though.

                  It is possible that a person of means - when my wife and I discussed
                  the possiblity that I might get such a boat, I used the phrase "the
                  unanticipated and inexplicable acquisition of unimagineable wealth" -
                  might fall in love with this design and have one built to keep at his
                  summer home in Bar Harbor for daysails and short cruises. He might
                  also attend some of the WoodenBoat meets and races. However, PCB
                  specified a plain finish, and our wealthy owner is going to demand
                  lots of polished brass and gleaming varnish. He will replace the lug
                  rig with a carbon fiber mast with much more staying and fly a bigger jib.

                  The question that caused me to mention Forest Belle some months ago
                  had to do with suggestions on how to use a pile of good plankning
                  timeber. There are lots of more practical options, e.g. PCB's
                  Friendship sloops, Prancing Pony, etc.

                  Peter
                • graeme19121984
                  Thanks for your trouble in searching this out and posting the scans Peter. A kind of bigger Rozinante perhaps? About the high peaked lug rig: would it have
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 25, 2006
                    Thanks for your trouble in searching this out and posting the scans
                    Peter. A kind of bigger "Rozinante" perhaps?

                    About the high peaked lug rig: would it have to be lowered to the
                    deck for reefing? I wonder how the halyard would be rigged and bent
                    to the yard for reefing? Would a second halyard be permanently
                    rigged to the upper yard near the peak/head?

                    Graeme

                    --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > The scans for the Forest Belle design are in the Files section fo
                    > boger_study_plans_only.
                    >
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bolger_study_plans_only/files/Forest%
                    20Belle/
                    >
                    > One of the things that this proposal illustrates is how different
                    > PCB's tastes and opinions are from the common throng. For example,
                    he
                    > tried to push this type of lug rig for a couple large boats, but
                    > without much success.
                  • pvanderwaart
                    ... Certainly there is not only one way to rig a boat this big and this traditional, but in comments about a rig of this time, PCB recently wrote that the yard
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jul 26, 2006
                      > About the high peaked lug rig: would it have to be lowered to the
                      > deck for reefing? I wonder how the halyard would be rigged and bent
                      > to the yard for reefing? Would a second halyard be permanently
                      > rigged to the upper yard near the peak/head?

                      Certainly there is not only one way to rig a boat this big and this
                      traditional, but in comments about a rig of this time, PCB recently
                      wrote that the yard is lowered to the deck, and rehoisted after the
                      halyard is shifted from mid-span to the top.

                      Peter
                    • graeme19121984
                      This would mean the yard is somewhat similar to the famous, and popular, Jack Holt designed Mirror and Heron dinghies. Being racing classes they are usually
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jul 26, 2006
                        This would mean the yard is somewhat similar to the famous, and
                        popular, Jack Holt designed Mirror and Heron dinghies. Being racing
                        classes they are usually not rigged for reefing, but I had a Heron set
                        up for reefing once. The sail is set with the yard peaked vertically
                        up above the mast, suspended that way by a single halyard bent on
                        about a third the way up the yard. The yard jaws are curved forward
                        and kept to the mast by a parrel passing between them in front of the
                        mast. For reefing, on my Heron, the yard was dropped to the deck, the
                        halyard shifted to a higher position, and the reef points tied in
                        before again hoisting the reduced sail. This was best done on the hard
                        though.

                        Master Heron sailors say they can preset, then adjust, more exquisite
                        tuning variations into the rig than with any jib headed marconi rig.

                        Here these are always refered to as Gunter rigs, but clearly PCB is
                        correct in calling it a lug rig.

                        Graeme

                        --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, "pvanderwaart" <pvanderwaart@...> wrote:
                        >...but in comments about a rig of this time, PCB recently
                        > wrote that the yard is lowered to the deck, and rehoisted after the
                        > halyard is shifted from mid-span to the top....
                      • pvanderwaart
                        ... In the usage that I am familiar with, in the Gunter rig the yard has jaws at the lower end, but with the Solent lug rig, it does not. Forest Belle would be
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jul 27, 2006
                          > Here these are always refered to as Gunter rigs, but clearly PCB is
                          > correct in calling it a lug rig.

                          In the usage that I am familiar with, in the Gunter rig the yard has
                          jaws at the lower end, but with the Solent lug rig, it does not.
                          Forest Belle would be an example of the latter.
                        • Sam Glasscock
                          I need a big but light tender/dinghy for dispacement speed with a 3hp outboard, able to cary 800 or 1000 lbs. I am thinking of stretching out a brick to ten
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jul 27, 2006
                            I need a big but light tender/dinghy for dispacement
                            speed with a 3hp outboard, able to cary 800 or 1000
                            lbs. I am thinking of stretching out a brick to ten
                            or twelve feet. Has anyone done this? Does the
                            reduced rocker which would result plus the longer
                            panels lessen the stiffness of the bottom so that the
                            planking thicknes would need to be increased? I want
                            it simple and light, so want to stay away from
                            "fastbrick" type cutwaters, etc. Any ideas?


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                          • Mark Albanese
                            One thing about the Brick bottom is that it s just about the limit for bending 1/4 ply, so is pretty stiff to start with. With or without the optional 1 1/2
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jul 27, 2006
                              One thing about the Brick bottom is that it's just about the limit
                              for bending 1/4" ply, so is pretty stiff to start with. With or
                              without the optional 1 1/2" skids underneath, I can't imagine any
                              trouble.

                              The rocker you propose would not be extreme. Once the sides are up,
                              you can experiment and stiffen up to suit.

                              The Brick sides are a bit floppy, though, as is. An added frame or
                              two will help you.
                              Mark




                              On Jul 27, 2006, at 11:19 AM, Sam Glasscock wrote:

                              > I need a big but light tender/dinghy for dispacement
                              > speed with a 3hp outboard, able to cary 800 or 1000
                              > lbs. I am thinking of stretching out a brick to ten
                              > or twelve feet. Has anyone done this? Does the
                              > reduced rocker which would result plus the longer
                              > panels lessen the stiffness of the bottom so that the
                              > planking thicknes would need to be increased? I want
                              > it simple and light, so want to stay away from
                              > "fastbrick" type cutwaters, etc. Any ideas?
                              >
                              >
                              > __________________________________________________
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Joe Tribulato
                              If the gunwale needs stiffening, add an inwhale. Better yet use spacer blocks between the side panel and the inwhale. Joe T
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jul 28, 2006
                                If the gunwale needs stiffening, add an inwhale. Better yet use spacer
                                blocks between the side panel and the inwhale.

                                Joe T

                                --- In bolger@yahoogroups.com, Mark Albanese <marka@...> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > The Brick sides are a bit floppy, though, as is. An added frame or
                                > two will help you.
                                > Mark
                                >
                                >
                                > On Jul 27, 2006, at 11:19 AM, Sam Glasscock wrote:
                                >
                                > > I need a big but light tender/dinghy for dispacement
                                > > speed with a 3hp outboard, able to cary 800 or 1000
                                > > lbs. I am thinking of stretching out a brick to ten
                                > > or twelve feet. Has anyone done this? Does the
                                > > reduced rocker which would result plus the longer
                                > > panels lessen the stiffness of the bottom so that the
                                > > planking thicknes would need to be increased? I want
                                > > it simple and light, so want to stay away from
                                > > "fastbrick" type cutwaters, etc. Any ideas?
                              • ravenouspi
                                Sam, David Grey, I believe, stretched a bolger skimmer to 10 or 12 feet and narrowed it 6 inches or so. Not the same boat as a brick, but not dissimilar in
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jul 28, 2006
                                  Sam,
                                  David Grey, I believe, stretched a bolger skimmer to 10 or 12 feet and
                                  narrowed it 6 inches or so. Not the same boat as a brick, but not
                                  dissimilar in the amount of interior framing (basically none).

                                  I just did a tortoise for Spat. It was very floppy right up until I
                                  glued in the longitudinal seat. Stiff as a "board" now. Following
                                  the plans from Build the New Instant Boats and gluing the seat to the
                                  rockered bottom like a curved-bottomed, flat-topped box stiffened up
                                  the whole boat unbelievably.

                                  I'd say go for it. you can always add a front deck or some luan knees
                                  if you have to later. If anything (look at cruising mouse for
                                  example) stretching out the rocker and extending the waterline might
                                  be a real plus.

                                  lets see . . . where is that david grey link . . .

                                  http://hometown.aol.com/polysail/HTML/boatnote.htm
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